TheProf

Hello,

I would like some insight into the difference between emotional fulfilment and sexual fulfilment, specifically for a woman.

Situation: My wife and I have now been married for over a year. During that year we've had very little intimacy of any sort. We're talking sex around 20 times total during that first year. Upon the many discussions we've had about this, she will cite the stresses of being newly married, new job, etc. etc. as major factors working against any sexual drive.

But it goes beyond just straight sex; she doesn't even like any sort of displays of love beyond hugging and kissing on the cheek. Those I get *many* of. But kissing on the lips - even a quick smack - is, according to her, in the same catagory as sexual contact. Same with touching any sexual area of her body.

In terms of of the fulfilment, she keeps telling me she gets all the fulfilment she needs from those cheek kisses/hugs. Anything else is just putting presure on her.

I personally cannot understand the difference, nor the lack of desire, for sexual fulfilment as well as the emotional one. And, as you can imagine, it is very frustrating and saddens me greatly.

Any thoughts? I'm sure much background is absent, but I don't know what's relevant and what's not, so I'll wait until there are comments/questions.

Thank you.

tecoyah

My first Marriage was a mirror to your current situation, and I felt in the first years that I was enlightened enough to accept the relative frigidity of this relationship, and attempted to understand the underlying cause of her lack of desire. I failed. By the third year I found myself holding much against her, and had lost all desire to "Try" to get her involved. We had a final confrontation which was quite heated and forced her to admit to some pretty severe sexual hangups, after which she told me she was "willing to do her wifely duty".......we never made love again. We were divorced within a year, and in hindsight I see the lessons learned and the lack of health in the relationship.

Mind you....this is not YOUR situation, it was mine. I did learn much over the seven year marriage, should you wish for any further insight.

__________________
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paulskinback

I think in a strong relationship you need to have sexual fulfillment to keep it helathy, vibrant and exciting. You also need to have a spur of the moment spontaneity towards sex which needs to be kept alive from the times when you first met. You didn't mention, do you have kids together? Childbirth and the strain of children will have an effect on sexual drive... but i sense not.

If you're interested in keeping your sex life alive and enjoyable, try grabbing her and caress her... have passionate, noisy spontaneous sex and make it a habit. I'm sure this will perk things up.

An ex of mine was unwilling to let me perform oral sex on her for a long time. Deeper into the relationship, I found out that she was abused by a stranger at the age of 13 who took pictures and went down on her and a friend, coaxed in by a paedophile who lived nearby. You never know what people have had happen in the past, and this may well be a factor...

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ironmaiden7o7

It seems here that the problem could be coming from her, her childhood, her teenage years, you should try to get deeper into this and try to figure out why she feels that way. For me, I'm emotional when in a relationship, I try to make contact at every least chance I get, it makes me feel better and it also makes my boyfriend feel better. I can't imagine being married for a year and have sex only 20 times, from what I know, during the first year of marriage, this get a little difficult because you're no longer alone, everything that you do and engage yourself in will be monitored and you have to be less carefree. But, in my opinion, during the first year is where the passion builds up, that's when your bond gets stronger, when you look at eachother differently and especially things like your sexual experiences should get better because you're granted more opportunities. I am sure she is going through something or the other, you won't know unless you speak to her about it.

I remember I used to say the same, that getting a hug, a kiss on the cheek will be more than enough to satisfy my fulfilment but I changed when I met someone and developed a relationship.
This must be difficult on you, and you should let her know that it's affecting you. Good luck with the situation and remember, I am no expert, you should seek professional help just to speak about it with her, I am sure it will make things better.

Kisses

maleficent

What was your sexual relationship like before you got married and what are your ages?

Has her method of birth control changed since getting married, somethings the hormones in birth control pills can wreak havoc with sexual desire. If this has changed, and has affected her libido, I'd suggest she talk to her doctor for a different prescription.

Bascially, my real question is, is this behavior a change, or was she always like this. and if there's a change, what has changed? The stressors she mentions are real stressors, stress can affect people differently.

Right now, it's been more than 2 1/2 years since I have had sex (Take that look of horror off your face, right now...) and lately, I find that I really don't miss it (explains why I am such a crank), I can relate to the stress of everyday life taking the sex drive right out of you... and unfortunately, I don't have a good solution, except....

Talk to her about how you are feeliing, you aren't her, so you are not going to be totally in touch with her feelings, you can only be totally in touch with your feelings. Don't pressure her for sex, but don't also just let it go either... Talking to a professional, both individually and as a couple is probably a great start.

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TheProf

Hello,

I very much appreciate the feedback so far.

In regards to specific issues raised:

It is scary to think that such an issue can result in the breakdown of the relationship. Due to various cultural/religious/family reasons, any sort of breakup wouldn't be possible, and to be honest, I have no reason to want such a think at all, neither now nor in the future. We both love each other very much. However, the point that it can just get worse is taken and that's probably why I'm asking how to deal with it from now.

I can feel the negative effects it has on me - it is destroying my self-esteem. What husband doesn't want to feel sexually-desired by his wife? It also results in me being stressed out/depressed. Indeed I feel more like a roommate than a lover.

In regards to life-circumstances, we are both mid-20s and have no children. Trying to keep our sex life alive by grabbing, caressing, touching does not work whatsoever. It results in her telling me not to touch her/stop it/etc. and that she is not interested in that. Within the past year she has initiated sex once, and that was after several intense discussions about this topic and she perhaps felt bad about it. But never since then.

In regards to previous experiences, we were both virgins when we were married. Her upbringing was more puritanical than mine, and I know this is a factor. However, she has been told many times, by many people, that this strict view of sex as 'negative' isn't healthy in marriage. She agrees, but nothing happens about it. While we were engaged we did engage in various intimate activities (nothing as far as intercourse) and it was great. But more importantly, her attitude towards sex was different. There was an excitement and anticipation she had towards sex once we were married; she used to make comments about her dreaming about the pleasures of sexuality once we were married many times. That has totally evaporated.

maleficent: I hear you in regards to the stresses of work, being newly married, etc. affecting people and she often cites that as a problem. However, I feel I must disagree - I always thought that sexual love was suppose to be a stress-reliever. That in a turbulant time finding love with your spouse was to help. You're arguing that it will depress the feeling. I'm saying they are independent. If not, then everyone's sexual life should be suffering, since I don't know a single person who isn't having problems. And we've talked about this issue many times. She acknowledges it as a POTENTIAL problem, but has said she would rather I reduce my sexual drive to her level, rather than what she feels is my overtly-high sexual drive. She seems to think I've got way too high a sexual drive (I do - for her. She's beautiful and I'm very attracted to her) and I had to go online and find out statistical information in regards to frequency of sex to convince her that what she's feeling isn't normal. (I used the durex global sex survey - world average is 3 times / week). Even then she admitted that she doesn't feel it, but that she can't do anything to change herself.

An interesting question you asked regarding birth control - she did start birth control when we got married. Specifically the Ortho Cyclen. Does this affect her sex drive? I don't know. Maybe someone else can give input.

Thanks

Rinndalir

I have been in this situation before and absolutely would not go back, even if it were my wife. It usually relates to some kind of abuse in the past though sometimes not, with me the girl had been abused at a young age and as a result associated sex with that. Every once in awhile she would let go and enjoy herself, but mostly it was either no sex or emotionless sex just to make me happy. Instead of confronting her issues and dealing with them she ignored them and later on started popping pills.

There were other things but I basically left her because of that, the sex. Normal girls like sex, and when they don't there's a problem, and when they won't deal with those issues then to me that's a deal-breaker. I know and have dated girls that had the strict religious upbringing, and normally they figure out that hey, sex isn't this evil thing that I've been taught it was, its not only normal but a very healthy and fulfilling part of life. But if she couldn't accept that and never changed, then yes I'd be outta there.

maleficent

Statistics are just that -- statistics, and depending on who is offering up those statistics is the result you will get. You think that Durex would talk to people who don't have sex frequently, they are a condom manufacturer, they are going to be talking to their customer base. Don't use that as a base as to how much sex you think you should be having. It's up to the individuals to decide what is right for them

Since you've got no sexual history with her, or with anyone, it could be a manner of sexual incomatibility. BUT, you've also both only been sexually active for a year, there's still a lot of growing and learning to do, if you are both willing to do it. Start slow, just some playing and teasing maybe, not everything has to end in intercourse, until she's ready for it.

Does she ever masturbate? How comfortable is she with her body and her sexuality? Does she know what her turn ons are and has she communicated them to you? Ever watch porn, read each other erotica.

The mind is the bodiest best sexual organ, find some good erotica and read to her -- not having sex as the objective, but maybe to find out what turns her on.

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StephenSa

Hmm... I am going through a similar situation only reversed. My wife and I got married in September after living together for a year. I've never had a huge sex drive. I've always been able to pretty much take it or leave it. When we were first together my wife (then girl friend) used to jump my bones all the time. She couldn't keep her hands off me. Frankly I found it a little annoying but realized she had needs to be fulfilled so would generally (but not always) play along. Now, a couple of years later and married she has gotten tired of initiating and frankly a lot of the time it doesn't even occur to me that we should have sex. I don't know, now that we are married there always seems to be something to do, bills to pay, problems with her kid, etc. It has been a big change for me and I find myself pretty tired a lot of the time. I'm attracted to my wife and love her. We hug and kiss. We hold hands when we go shopping and the like. I love all that but to me sex quite often is just work! Of course in my home her daughter sleeps in the room adjacent to ours and we must wait until she goes asleep to have sex. Frankly that takes all the spontenaity and fun out of it for me so thats a factor as well. I have though discovered that when I work out a lot lifting weights that I am more interested in sex, perhaps something to do with testosterone production and my own self image being better. Your wife might fiond some activity that has a similar effect on her. Perhaps you could discuss the problem with your doctor. There might be a chemical/biological reason your wife has a diminished sex drive. I'm not trying to thread-jack with my story here, just let you know that others have very similar problems and all hope is not lost. I doubt I'll ever have a sex drive to equal my wife's but I recognise that she has needs and as her partner I should make an effort make her happy. I am actively looking for ways to enhance my drive and make sex seem fun again. A marriage is a partnership, give and take. Your wife really should make an effort to balance things out a bit more. As others have said, talking to a counselor might prove beneficial.

ratbastid

I think Malificent is onto it here. Given the last piece you said about how your pre-marriage life was, the pieces are falling into place.

She's not satisfied with your sex life either. But she's too inexperienced to know that there's anything better than what she's getting. As a result, she's totally resigned about it, and has written sex off as something she doesn't want or need.

Has she ever had an orgasm? Does she masturbate? My hunch is that what's wanted here is coaxing her out of her shell.

TheProf

Hello,

Maleficent: In regards to the statistics - agreed their sample population was not neutral, but given their sample size and diversity of cultures, it can be at least considered a baseline to work with. Even if you take the average of 3 times / week and use it as a maximum you'll end up with our situation being at the lower end I think. Especially for a young, in-love, just-married couple.

In regards to sexual incompatibility - I have no idea. I thought that really isn't a deal-breaker. I understand different people have different preferences, but wouldn't everyone at least have the same basic needs? To use an analogy, I may like only chinese food while she likes italian, but we both need to eat. And the situation isn't about preferences, it is about desire, or lack thereof. I would do anything to please her as she wants, but if she doesn't want to eat anything (analogously-speaking) what can I do?

Malificent & ratbastid: She used to masturbate, when we were engaged, often as a result of us talking about sex on the phone or as a result of her being turned on thinking about us being intimate, or her reading some erotica online. However, she not has done so since we got married. That would a) indicate she's got some sort of interest in sex, which she doesn't and b) it would be unlikely she'd finish as I'd want to pleasure her if I was around and she would know that. She has had many orgasms, but most of them before we got married. She'd often bring herself to climax more than once by herself or if I was helping through manual stimulation. However that all stopped after marriage. During intercourse she will very often lose interest and request that I stop, which I usually due so as to not upset her. I've tried many different things during sex to get her interested but esentially she's waiting for the first opportunity for me to finish for her to say that's it. She will then claim that she has already received enough fulfilment through what has happened and doesn't need to climax for any more fulfilment, something which very much confuses me. If I press the issue she will get mad.

How comfortable is she with her body? Not at all, and for absolutely no good reason. She is very attractive to myself and has received many compliments from other men in different situations to the same effect. And I sort of doubt that this is an issue, simply because I don't see the change in the variable from before or after marriage in her body - and yet before she was interested and now she is not. Prior to marriage she bought much lingerie in anticipation of usage and would speak excitedly of using it. She still fits into all of it now, and yet has not used nearly any of it due to a lack of desire. And her reasoning is that she is fulfilled as it is, like I was saying before, just through hugs and cheek kisses.

Often when I do bring up the issue of needs and give and take, she will counter by saying that it's just the way it is, and then asks me if I really want her to fake interest or just put out as "wifely-duties" so to speak. Of course I say I do not want that, and I truely don't. It will only result in resentment building. So I think she takes that to mean things are just going to stay this way.

Sorry if the post wandered all over the place.
Thanks

maleficent

Not all women need to have orgasms -- it's not the finish that's important it's the closeness and the intimacy of the during that is what's important. It's not always easy to put into words...

So it seems that the marriage was the major change (don't rule out the hormones from birth control), What was her living situation before you both got married and moved in together? Did she live alone? with family? Sometimes living with someone, with all their quirks, can put a damper on sexual feelings, and they may not even realize it...

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VrtlCybr2000

I'm like StephenSa up there. I simply have no real sex drive. I mean, I enjoy sex and all, but most of the time I can simply go without, and not even really notice. So these may be traced with a hint of that, but just remember she probably believes everything she's saying. I won't quote everything, but I'm going to touch on some stuff.

Stress? It can certainly hamper that. I'm a stressful person, and sure, sex relieves that stress, but leading up to it, stress can completely destroy any semblace of a sex drive. It does effect everyone differently, so don't always disagree, think about it first.


Hmmm. We may have something here. And I'm not the person to give tons of advice, really. But look further into this. Has she ever had an orgasm durring intercourse? Multiple? Just one? This info may help some. You may be able to find someone to give better advise in this department.

Untitled

I apologize if these seems way off base, but the thought just occurred to me...

Perhaps, because she hasn't had an orgasm from actual intercourse, she's disappointed in this thing she had built up in her mind.
Maybe try to step back, and do all of the things you two did before you got married. See if she's interested in that, and not intercourse.
Also, maybe get a book, or find a website (I'm sure the lovely people here would have some suggestions for you) that can help you two find positions that are more stimulating for her.

Also, I really think this hormonal/birth control issue needs looking into.

just my two cents...

abaya

May I ask what religious background each of you has (specific denominations), and why you chose to wait until marriage to have sex? I'm not judging it as wrong to do so, as I used to be an evangelical Christian and believed I would wait until marriage... however, I realized how damaging that would be to me individually (even though many of my friends did wait, with mixed results) and to my future relationship(s).

I have heard many stories about married couples being sexually incompatible, but that's not always the end of the story. Many go to couples counseling (once both people recognize that there is a problem; have you communicated to your wife about how much it hurts you when she pushes you away?) and are able to work towards a solution without losing their marriage. Incidentally, did you attend any kind of premarriage counseling? (Most churches require this of anyone getting married.) If so, what role did sexual compatibility/expectation play in your sessions?

Sorry for all the questions, but there are a lot of unknowns in this whole situation... it sounds like your wife really needs to be honest with herself about her background and come clean with you about why she is so disinterested (or afraid) of sex. I respect you for trying to give her space, but the issue comes down to YOUR happiness in the relationship as well as hers, and I'm afraid you will begin to resent her eventually. That's where it's her responsibility to own up to her issues in order to function better (in all aspects, physical included) in relationship with you.

Aladdin Sane

Go to a therapist now. Tell your wife that it is very important to you that this get worked out. Make her understand what her lack of lust is doing to you and to the relationship.
I have a friend who hasn't been divorced very long, and your problem was his exactly. His wife wasn't interested. She never initiated sex. She never wanted to try something new. Sex, she could take it or leave it. He said he felt like he was living with a roomate with tits. No passion. No romance. No lust.

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TheProf

Hello again,

I'm absorbing what everyone has written and I'll post some responses soon enough. However, as someone pointed out, it may be important to consider the role of the birth control pill. I've been wondering that myself. However, is this something completely subjective? Has anyone experienced this sort of shift in libido because of the pill? If it was the pill that may be the best answer since it shows an external influence, rather than some sort of internal incompatibilty.

thanks

little_tippler

Maybe your girlfriend built up sex to be something it didn't turn out to be. Maybe she doesn't enjoy it because it fails to reach her expectations...in fact, maybe she has pain or is too sensitive down there. Or she could have sexual hang-ups she never knew she really had, till the moment she actually had sex for the first time. Maybe it's all so frustrating that she doesn't want it anymore. Maybe she has a really low sex drive when it comes to the reality of the sexual act, but was able to masturbate before because the "idea" is a turn-on. You need to make her feel she can talk to you and you won't get angry, or keep turning it back to yourself (it's me isn't it and responses of that sort that focus on you and not her). Focus on what she needs to happen to make sex all you both want it to be.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Sage

The pill can have a MAJOR effect on mood and libido! I was on Nuvra-Ring for a year, and towards the end i had some major issues with sex, with my body, with just about everything! I thought i was going CRAZY! then, i talked about it with my husband, and we traced me feeling wierd back to be being on birth control. so, i went off of birth control, and it made me feel like a TOTALLY DIFFERENT PERSON!

that said, realize that this isn't the end of the world. a lot of people have said that no sex kills a relationship, but if you and your wife really love each other and really care about keeping your relationship happy and healthy, you'll work things out. my theory, and this is hypothetical, is that somehow her strict religious upbringing is kicking in (either conciously or subconciously) since you've been married. to her, perhaps married couples only have sex in order to procreate, or don't have sex that often. please, sit down with your wife, tell her how much you love her and how much you want to be a good husband, and explain to her that you want to make your marriage be all it can be. do some research online about birth control affecting mood and libido, and suggest that perhaps she go off of it for a while (it's a good idea to skip a month or two after a year of taking it so your hormones can self-regulate). tell her this not because you want to have sex with her (you do, but talking about it at this point will only upset her), but because you're worried about her and her state of mind. then suggest that you go to a marriage counselor, not because you want to pressure her into sex, but because you want to make sure that you're both doing all you can to build a sound, happy foundation for the rest of your life. if divorce is not an option for you, you BOTH need to do all you can in order to keep your relationship alive and fun. also, i would suggest dropping the sex thing entirely until she gets off of birth control/ you go to see a counselor. she might be resistant to change at first, but if you sit down and tell her just how you feel about things (not about sex!), and that you want to do everything you can to make it right, she'll probably realize that it's important to be happy!

another thing, what were her parents like? what kind of model for marriage did she have as a child? did her parents ever tell her that sex was bad/for procreation only/wasn't important? oftentimes the only model for behavior we have comes from our parents, and when something is going on that we don't understand, we often revert back to what they taught us. these are things that could/probably will be asked in counseling. i hypothesise that much of this has to do with her hormones due to birth control and her background. was she on birth control at all ever for any reason before you got married? because if she wasn't, i'd be willing to bet money on the birth control causing the libido issues. ESPECIALLY since you said she had a healthy libido beforehand. i know- i've been there!

realize that you can go to a christian counselor, who will help you both with your marriage from the perspective of religion. this counselor might help her to understand her body and her sexuality from a context of religion, which would appeal to her puritinacial upbringing. if you are both attending church, ask your pastor after service about what the best options open to you both are.

your wife needs you right now, because she's probably feeling down on herself because of this whole sex thing. I felt HORRIBLE when i didn't have a libido, because i knew what it was doing to my husband, and i thought i couldn't change (you said your wife said almost the same thing- that she felt she couldn't change). love her every way you can- make sure she knows that she's special/beautiful/wonderful and that this sex thing is just a minor blip on an otherwise fun and happy marriage. sit with her, talk to her, tell her that IT'S NOT HER, that it could be the birth control, and that she can change, and that you're there for her while she's going through this. she needs massive amounts of support from you right now! make sure you're making time for both of you- even though you're not having sex right now, you still need to be going on dates and making time for just the two of you. give her a massage, take a bath together, go have a picnic- and assure her that sex is not going to be the result. if she feels pressured, she's just going to feel worse about herself. MAKE SURE that your marriage is being cultivated even though you aren't having sex. be intimate in other ways. perhaps, AFTER you've had the birth control/counseling discussion, and AFTER you have made it CLEAR IN EVERY WAY that you're not going to pressure her for sex, you can ask if it would be ok for you to masturbate with her- have her hold you while you masturbate. this way, you are having orgasms, she's participating but not feeling threatened, and you both are being drawn closer. but i would say leave this question until AFTER the birth control/counseling/ long talk/ massage/ etc.

I commend you for caring about your wife so much! It's a wonderful thing that you are doing for her, and just be patient! I have been in her situation before- if you'd like to chat about it, feel free to PM me or AIM me, and i'll help you try and understand what it's like from the woman's perspective as much as i can!

GET THAT WOMAN OFF OF BIRTH CONTROL PRONTO!!!

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ShaniFaye

I can attest to BC killing my sex drive (years ago...the one Im on now doesnt affect it adversly) so thats definately something to look into.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

TheProf

Thanks for everyone's feedback - it's helping me a lot.

People are asking about our backgrounds,up-bringing, etc. as important factors; they may be factors at some level. We were both raised and lived with our parents until we were married (except for her going away to university, but it was still close to home). We also knew each other as friends for many years before we became engaged, and our families have been welcoming for us and our families.

abaya: We and our families are both Orthodox Christians (and please note, orthodox does NOT mean strict. Not at all - I'd rather not have people read that and nod, going "ah - that's why they are having problems - end of discussion", because it's not the case. Example, many orthodox Christian denominations, including ours, have no problem with sex for pleasure only as well as procreation). We waited for marriage because neither her nor I are the sort of people who wanted to just sleep around. For myself, I wanted to keep such an intimate experience until I was married (doesn't mean it wasn't hard!). Same with my wife, and since we both thought the same thing, it wasn't a matter of incompatibility in that issue. A couple-counselling program did not exist at our church, but it definitely is something I will recommend for them to start.

My wife did come from a more strict family and more religious up-bringing (Her parents are higher-ups in the church service), and I know it plays a part in her views about sex. Originally, when we first got married, she would be VERY uncomfortable during sex. We're talking having panic attacks, getting very emotional,etc. We did go to speak to a church priest/counsellor about this and she now agrees that sex is not bad, but has a hard time acting on that since she says she just has no drive. A benefit from the counselling was that she no longer has those strong emotions when we have sex, thankfully. She is now just not interested at all.

little_tippler: It is possible I suppose that she's had all this expectation and the reality is a let-down. I will in no-way claim to be any good at love-making, but I try. And I would think that if I had high expectations for something, and it didn't work out the first few times, I'd want to try it again, non? I always enjoy pleasuring her, but I don't think she can relax enough to let me do so. And you did raise an interesting point:
When I think about it, this is probably true. While engaged, she liked being a 'bad girl' as it turned her on while on the phone, masturbating, or if I touched her. Nothing at the level that can be considered S&M as I've seen on this board, but more along the lines of dirty talk. We did talk about this, and she realized that it turned her on a lot. Example: if she is coming close to climaxing during sex, she will be able to orgasm strong/easier if she's a 'bad girl'. However, she *hates* doing it. She feels she's acting and has to play a role to be turned on. She wants a more straightforward approach to sex, as I suppose she's learned is appropriate in the past. So she will refuse to get into that frame of mind. This topic was also brought up with our church priest/counsellor who told her that, within the bedroom, everything is acceptable as long as it is done in love. However, I don't think this convinced her.

I am, however, starting to place a heavy interest in the possibility that the Pill is causing this change in her sex drive. As I mentioned before, she did have a very healthy interest in our future sex-life before she went on the pill. She was not on it during the engagement period - only once we got married (technically a week or 2 before the wedding) - and we were both, to put it straight, very horny for each other. However, once we got married, which coincided with starting the pill, that has vanished at a fundamental level.
I sometimes wonder if she's actually feeling down about the issue. She has said at times she is upset at herself, but then simply reconciles this by saying that's the way it is, and that sex isn't very important in the grand scheme of life compared to work, family, etc. It's frustrating to hear that. ANd I do tell her that she's beautiful, special, etc. not for any reason except it is the truth. But it is getting to the point, as was stated before, that it's like being constantly sexually-frustrated because you have such a hot roommate that you cannot touch. I can't imagine that it's healthy to be masturbating while married because of lack of sex, but that's how I'm dealing with this frustration. She knows this, and has said it's fine with her since it takes the pressure off of her.

Is this clarifying the situation at all?

Thanks.

abaya

Do you mean orthodox as in Greek Orthodox, or do you mean a more mainline branch of American Protestantism (e.g. Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc)? I take it you're not Catholic, but I just wanna get the background straight.

Also, how much sex education did each of you receive from your parents? Are they open to talking about sex?

Also, have you actually said to her, especially recently,
"I feel very hurt when you do not want to work with me on our sex life, and when you appear to have given up on the idea already"... or something like that. Be assertive in telling her how her behavior and/or words affect you directly; if nothing else, this should get her heart's attention... I really don't know if she has a full understanding of how much pain you are in, because she is being rather stubborn and not empathetic, from what you say. The Bible states that the two people become one flesh... and I think she's not allowing that to happen with you, which I see as being downright wrong.

And maybe add a more positive statement, such as: "It would make me feel more loved if we could work toward having a good sex life together, and I'm totally willing to go to counseling if that's what we need to do, but I need your help on this."

Somehow I don't think birth control is the whole issue. It may be, but I doubt it. I started having sex last spring (as I said, I had planned to wait until marriage, but made a conscious decision that while I didn't want to sleep around, I did want to be in a stable relationship; so that's what happened, and it's a good thing)... and with no relation to the birth control, I had a VERY hard time relaxing and enjoying sex. Even when I was very turned on, my vaginal walls just would NOT relax. It always hurt a bit when he first slid inside me, but after a short while my body (mind) relaxed and I could enjoy it. But it took MONTHS of doing this every day, with it hurting a bit at the beginning each time, before my mind finally let go of whatever the problem was.

Personally I think a lot of it had to do with my strict attitude towards sex before this point, and like your wife, I liked being a "bad girl" until I had to deal with the reality. A lesser man might have given up on me and decided it wasn't worth it (and I don't think you're one of those, btw!), but I credit my boyfriend for being patient enough with me until I could finally enjoy sex the way it's meant to be enjoyed. He was a virgin too, and from that perspective I can tell you that learning about each other's bodies together, with no prior baggage, is really a wonderful process... and that's what the point of your waiting until marriage was supposed to be, right? So I don't like hearing that you have to miss out on it. Definitely keep talking to your wife, be assertive in telling her your feelings (esp. being hurt), and try counseling, if she's willing.

Johnny Rotten

TheProf, this sounds like a problem outside the scope of non-professional analysis. I suggest both counseling and a medical re-consideration of what kind of birth control pill/patch/injections she's getting. Since she sounded reasonably sexual before the pill, I'm leaning toward chemical imbalance--but that chemical balance may have only strengthened some kind of deeper sexual reluctance (that has nothing to do with you, by the way). Which is why I recommend a counselor as well.

Because sweet lovin' rocks.

777

So you say that the both of you were hot and heavy until you got married. Then that gives us something to work with. I've been reading up on improving my interaction skills and meeting women, and here's something I would like you to try.

Remember a time you had really great sex and/or a time she was turned on. Now think about how your going to describe this event to your wife. What's important is that she remember the FEELING of being turned on. Such as how she'll feel warm all over, her heart will beat faster, her breathing will change, etc. Details. You can even go over the whole intimate encounter. If she can visualize being turned on in her mind, then she will be turned on.

Now when you've found the right time to have sex, put her in a good mode before telling your story. Use your sense of humor, an anecdote, whatever. You'll know the best way to go about this. Then tell your story, "Remember the time when..." This whole process should take you less then 10 min. When she reaches the emotional state your looking for, touch her in a loving way. Hold her hand, hold her arm, touch her hair, whatever. This will anchor that emotional state with that specific touch. Touching her in this manner will help turn her on in the future.

I hope I've been helpful.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

skysooner

This sounds like a microcosm of my marriage. My wife was brought up strict Catholic and that sex was dirty. Her mother told her that sex was something she had to submit to for the privilege of being married. Her mother also never saw her own husband's erect penis in the light. Everything was done in the dark.

My wife was a virgin before our wedding night. The honeymoon was miserable. She was so tense and then she bled a lot. She was extremely disappointed in sex although she never told me. She used to orgasm all the time when we were just messing around prior to marriage. After marriage, the only way she could get really turned on was to watch pornos with me. We did trace some of it to her birth control. She switched, and it helped her lubrication a bit.

It affected our marriage a bunch during the first few years as she wasn't enjoying sex and as much as she thought she was hiding it, it was pretty easy to tell. She was masturbating and getting off much easier. Well, the trick to this is that she was more of a clitoral orgasm girl compared to g-spot. Intercourse can feel good to her, but she rarely orgasms to it. After a long stretch of talking to her about it and getting her to realize that it wasn't great for me if she wasn't enjoying it, she began to open up to me a bunch more. She gets off very easily now and initiates sex all the time (compared to previously when it didn't happen unless I initiated it). It isn't an easy process, but it was really worth it once we got there. I would say that we had 5 so-so years with sex, 3 years or so of decent sex and now 5 years of mind-blowing sex. It is great every single time now.

I had lots of experience coming into the marriage, but my experience never prepared me for her. If you can work through it, it turns out great.

abaya

SkySooner, I really appreciated your story... so nice to read about a positive side of this for once! I'm VERY glad that you both stuck it out. I think with enough patience and love, most couples can work through any apparent compatibility problems... because most of the time it's not incompatibility, it's just learning what's going on in their mind (esp. unconsciously) and how to approach her differently as a result.

TheProf

So, an interesting thing happened this morning...

We were just going through that "alarm goes off, snooze for a while, alarm goes off, repeat" sleepy haze, and we had been sleeping spooning with her back to my chest. She rolled on her back, and a few moments later, started rubbing her clitoris under the sheets.

Despite my sleepy state, I did notice this and wasn't sure what to do. At other times she's just done that to scratch and would get annoyed if I jumped to a conclusion otherwise. So I decided to hold on for bit.

After a minute or so passed, it was clear she wasn't scratching a regular itch . So I slide my hand down and started rubbing with her. She reacted positively, and let me continue in her semi-awake state. However, she clearly became more and more awake as this continued.

So I thought I'd take the approach suggested here of not pressuring her for anything, and just continued to focus on pleasuring her as she wanted. As she became more into it, she asked me to start talking dirty to her. As a good husband, I - of course - had to comply . This did allow her to come to a climax soon thereafter.

After she had orgasmed, she told me she had been just dreaming about performing oral sex on me and was very turned on due to my erection pressing into her back. Seems that's what got the whole thing started. Of course, by then we were both going to be late, so we got about our day. But I wasn't sure who was more happy: her from the orgasm or me from that whole experience.

Not sure how this fits into the whole discussion we've been having. Should I use this event as a stepping-stone into this whole area of sex, or just leave well alone?

Thanks

Sage

stepping stone! good for you for not pressuring her into more than she was ready for! just reassure her that it was great being intimate with her, and how sexy she was for letting you be a part of that! let her know that you had fun, but are ready to hold off and do things at her pace. have you talked about the birth control thing with her? cause like i said, i'm willing to bet money that's it. i'm so happy you two had an intimate expierence again! make sure you tell her how good it makes you feel when she does that- that it's not about the sexual aspect but about the fact you're sharing a moment with each other that no one else ever gets to be a part of! keep reassuring her and supporting her!

__________________

Acetylene

Prof, that's fantastic The more comfortable you can make her feel, the better. One problem with sex for women is, if you don't have it, you don't want it. The more often I orgasm, the more horny I am. So this is a very good thing and you handled it well, too, proving to her that you are not just a horny bastard but someone who wants to please her, too.

Anyway, the issue at hand...There's a lot of good advice on this board already. All I have to add is the above, plus this: does your girl go to church? If yes, try talking to her minister privately (just you, and get him to promise confidentiality, which as a priest he is required to keep) and find out how he feels about sex within marriage. Explain the situation to him. If he is supportive of your point of view (and he will probably be, unless he is really really medieval), then arrange a meeting between him and your wife. He may be able to do a lot to ease her consience.

Also, make a big point of trying to ALLEVIATE HER STRESS! If she says she is too stressed to make love, then DO THE FRICKEN DISHES! She will appreciate it, and if stress really is hurting her sex drive (and I don't doubt that it is, stress definately kills mine), then helping her out is helping you too.

Finally, keep on being patient and enjoying the cuddles she seems to love. Try injecting a little bit of play into the affection, like tickling, which can liven things up and help to thin the line between passive cuddling and active lovemaking.

Good luck!

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.

skysooner

It is a great stepping stone but expect in this to take steps foward followed by small setbacks. This is a long-term process. Breaking down these kinds of barriers is best done brick by brick very slowly. My wife tells me that there are many women who don't enjoy sex and would rather not do it. I feel she is wrong in this (more in semantics than actual). Most women have the capacity to enjoy sex but might not. This is different than her assertion that many women don't like it. The problem is their partners don't have a clue how to help them and many times they don't either since they may feel it is wrong given conservative upbringings. There are several of her friends who basically had no sex life going with their husbands, they get divorced and all of a sudden they turn into nymphos and enjoy sex. The capacity was there, but their enjoyment was not.

Keep at it. Don't play it too heavy with her. The absolute best thing to do is just to let her know how much you enjoyed it.

k9trainingbiz

As a female with a VERY high sex drive (from early puberty!) and a GYN nurse prospective, I can tell you that if she was a sexual person before taking the pill, it IS the pill - it happened to me. How it works: It is mostly made of progesterone, the hormone that is produced in great quantities while pregnant, which also reduces testosterone (that's right, - testosterone) and it causes depression in many women. People think that it is estrogen that is responsible for sexual desire and response in a woman - it is not! We produce about 10 percent of what males do, and it is the hormone of desire and response. When that is reduced, most every woman has declining or non-existent drive (libido), depending on what the level was naturally. Either she can find another method of birth control (I wouldn't recommend another pill, no matter what they claim, they all work the same way). Find a GOOD GYN who is willing to treat with low dose testosterone - I GUARANTEE she will be back to herself, if not hornier! Make sure it is a cream - bypasses the liver (can damage if taken orally). Don't let any MD tell you it is "dangerous" some will tell you that becuase they are uneducated. taken in the small dose (0.3 mg per day) as opposed to 10mg per day for men, it is harmless. Call around to compound pharmacies and ask who is prescibing. See that MD. I promise it will be worth it! I don't believe it is her Christian upbrining or she wouldn' have messed around before marriage or indicated she was "horny".
Sorry this reply is so long. Good luck!

k9trainingbiz

Oh, I forgot to tell you, don't expect immediate results, it will take 2 weeks to a month, depending on her - every patient is different.

alicat

Christian upbringing, birth control, self-image. All those issues have been brought up and are possible reasons you wife is not interested or withholding sex. One thing that no one has brought up that surprises me, your wife very well could have been raped or sexually molested between your engagement and marriage. I'm sure everyone is aware of the low incidence of these abuses being reported. The fact that she enjoyed everything "but" intercourse, masterbated, engaged in talking dirty on the phone and then suddenly lost all interest is a huge warning sign to me.

There are many emotions that go along with being sexually violated, among them humiliation, hatred, fright, feeling weak, and sometimes guilt. I have never been outright raped (with violent penile penetration I should say) but have been violated twice. Warning: as will be visually obvious, this will be a bit long for me to relate my experiences.

When I was 14, I was dating one of my first boyfreinds, an 18 yr. old senior. I was a bit star-struck as he was one of the star wrestlers at our school and I was a wrestling cheerleader. He was sexually experienced and I was not (kissing and mild groping the extent I'd had). We had maybe 6 encounters at his house after school of making out. The last one before the day I'm about to relate, he had coaxed me into stripping naked except for my panties because he said I had such a beautiful body and he just wanted to look at me. Which is all he did along with our usual make-out session.

The next time I was there, he asked me to do the same which I niavely did. He then said he wanted me to take off my panties so he could appreciate my body fully, again, I stupidly complied. We started making-out and he said he had to go to the bathroom, I know now (or rather shortly after the fact) that he left to put a condom on. Most of you can see where this is going. At that time, I did not. I was 14, a virgin and trusting, he had been in a 4 yr. relationship (and still was I learned) and was quite sexually experienced. He came back, we resumed making out, he got on top of me (the dry hump position we'd done before) and within a few minutes, he thrust inside me. I was shocked and horrified, but did I scream, beat at him or tell anyone afterwards? No. Nearly twenty years later I still remember wearing baggy stirrup pants and a long sweater to school the next day so it wouldn't be quite so noticable that I was walking stiffly. I was so humiliated and confused that I was petrified at the thought of anyone knowing what I had been through. I felt guilty because even though I did not give my consent to have sex, I felt I had asked for it because I was there naked and making out with my boyfriend of 6 mths.. Did that give him the right to assume he could screw me? No it did not.

The second incident: The same time period. I had (obviously) broken up with the previous boyfriend and yet like most school girls, I had a crush on another wrestler. One day on X-mas break he (the crush) and two other guys from the team showed up at my house, supposedly just to shoot the shit. As they were walking out the door to leave, one of them (a 320 lb. heavyweight) picked me up, threw me over his shoulder and carried me out of my house, with me giggling at his antics and my mother in the next room. I was wearing a pair of panties, a U of M sweatshirt and sweatpants. I was laughing "o'kay guys knock it off already" when one of them opened their car trunk and threw me in. The 3rd. one (not my crush or the heavyweight) got in after me and they closed the trunk and took off. Initially I thought this was some kind of joke or cheerleader "hazing" until the dick in there with me started grabbing me and trying to force my clothes off.

He eventually did get my shirt off and through some sheer force of will I was able to fight him and he wasn't able to get into my pants or get them off. Then (about 5 min. later-time almost stood still) the car stopped and the trunk opened. They let me get out (topless with my arms crossed over my breasts) and get into the back seat with the heavyweight (we were somewhere in my subdivision). At first they were laughing like it was some kind of test (hazing) and I'd passed. Then the 320 lb. fuck started attacking me in the back seat (I weighed 95 lbs.). He stripped my pants off and as hard as I tried to fight him, I couldn't stop him from fingering me violently. As this was happening, I could see my "crush" watching in the rear-view mirror. As absolutely terrifying (undescribable really) as this was, I could see that they were taking me back to my house and therefore I had to endure this abuse only for a few minutes before we got there. I think the huge fuck realized this and got his times worth, harshly, on the way. They let me dress a block away from home and then dumped me at my driveway. I was in such shock, I limped into the house, yelled some lame excuse to my mother and crawled into my bed. Why did I never tell anyone until my father and husband a couple of yrs. ago after seeing a made for tv movie of an almost exact crime? Because a few days after this happened to me, the wrestling coach pulled me aside from cheerleading practice and told me I "better not fucking tell anyone and get any of his fucking boys in trouble!". How's that for leadership. This grown man, supposedly a mentor, threatened an already violated girl to protect his "boys" from a crime. And you know what? It worked, it clamped my mouth right up.

I'm sorry that was so damn long. Maybe it should have been a thread instead of a post. My point in relating all that is that hopefully I've shown that women can be victim's of rape or sexual molestation and there are many reasons and emotions that can keep them from confiding to anyone what has happened to them. The fallout from being abused can manifest itself in many ways, not the least of which (understandably) is sexual.

TheProf: There have many great suggestions in this thread as to why your wife is shunning sex. I am by no means saying that her behavior is the result of unwilling sexual contact (or by a far stretch of the imagination, willing, which could also lead to guilt). It is simply something I've experienced and know first hand can affect the sexual relations of even the most loving, devoted of couples. I am just offering up another possibility (which I sincerely hope is not correct). I'm a long lapsed Catholic so forgive me if I'm off here but even the bible endorses sex within marriage "Go forth and multiply", so Catholicism shouldn't normally cause a believer to not embrace sex after wedding. Good luck to you and your wife and your relationship.

Ali

__________________
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun, The frumious Bandersnatch!'--Jabberwocky, Lewis Carroll

"You cannot do a kindness too soon because you never know how soon it will be too late."--Ralph Waldo Emerson

TheProf

Hello,

I thought I would post an update to our situation.

We first, based upon discussions on this site and in real life, decided to go back to her gynocologist to discuss other birth control pill brands.

So we went today. And we're never going back to that doctor. I'm not going to go into the blatant rudeness of the office staff - they're not trained for good bedside manners. I'm not going to go into how they were complaining about our timing, contradicting the check-in procedure they earlier told us to go through, or venting at us that we're going to cause them to miss lunch - I'll just let all that go.

However, in regards to the gynocologist, I can easily say I've never met a more rude doctor in my life. And I've met many.

So my wife, as I mentioned before, is already in a fragile emotional state because of this whole sex issue. So she had asked me to do most of the talking. We had discussed and I had already planned what I was going to say: lack of libido, decreased vaginal wetness, emotions up and down, etc.

Once the doctor enters the room, the doctor asks why we are there. And the doctor is directly talking to my wife. Now I understand that as a gyno, the majority of the discussion is about women. But the doctor barely acknowledged my handskake and introduction. My wife tells the doctor we are there to discuss the side effects of the prescription the gynocologist had written. The doctors asks why we didn't go to the family doctor to do so (IE: why are you wasting my time). We inform the doctor that our family doctor is not well and the office is closed. The gyno. begrudgingly starts to talk with us.

I start talking and say that the pill is causing my wife mood swings which are noticable on her period vs. off her period. As I'm getting the sentence out of my mouth, the gyno interrupts me to tell me that they would like to hear it from my wife, not me.

Now, my wife is a sweetheart and not at all a rude person, so this sort of talk made her uncomfortable and she was shy with what she was saying to the doctor. But she said to the gyno. that the pill was causing mood swings. Before she could even GET to the low sex drive the pill is causing, the doctor interrupts her to say "that's a side effect of all pills. So the pill is no good for you. Let's talk about other forms of birth control. Condom. Spermicide. IUD, etc." Just like that. End of discussion.

So I wasn't going to take that and started asking questions about how can they all do that - aren't there different doses? Different brands? To which the answer is that the doctor does not have time to get into all that with us! But that there are no differences in the brands and the different doses would have no effect. So we'd better think of other methods.

My wife says she's not comfortable on other methods, and would rather take the side effects of the pill than go off it. (Kids are just not an option for us at this time). So is there anything else that would work? Answer. NO (in a "we've already said that tone"). I tried bringing up other delivery methods such as the patch or the embedded hormone ring, to which the doctor again tries to argue that there would be zero difference.

My wife says she would like a repeat of the current prescription since there seems to be no other option. The doctor says that can't be done now because that requires a physical examination, pap smear, etc and there is no time for that now! So the gyno. refused to give us a repeat.

Sensing we're not giving up, the doctor suggests that, against better judgement, they are going to give us a test pack of another brand which they claims is an "older" drug and not as 'new' as the one my wife is on. (brand details after this little story). The doctor leaves the room, and my wife bursts into tears. She had such high hopes that there would be a solution to this problem and the huge negative effects it's having on us and our marriage, and this rude doctor won't even discuss it. I calmed her down and told her we'll go somewhere else.

Doctor returns with another brand explaining that it's a 28-day cycle, etc. The doctor interestingly removes the enclosed insert and pockets it EVEN THOUGH I read on the side of the box it says "The enclosed insert must be dispensed to patient." We take it and leave.

So much for that. My wife is on the second-last package on the current prescription. We're not sure what to do now. She doesn't want to start a new brand just like that because she a) doesn't want to feel "like a science experiment and b) doesn't want to go through the emotional upheavals of changing brands, if there are any. She couldn't ask that doctor because she just wanted to get out of the office.

/end rant

In terms of details, my wife is on Cyclen 28 by (DIN 01992872) which contains 0.25 mg norgestimate and 0.035 mg ethinyl estradiol. The new pack given to her by the doctor is Alesse by Wyeth (DIN 02236975) which contains 0.1 mg levonorgestrel and 0.02 mg ethinyl estradiol. So there IS a difference in terms of the hormonal composition and the concentrations. I don't understand how the gyno. can say there would be no difference. And the gynocologist also said that you would notice a difference between the two in less than 1 month (I'm ignoring the fact the doctor is being self-contradicting), even though when my wife went on the pill originally, she was told that the symptoms would stabilize after 3 months!

Does anyone have any experiences with Alesse, or with switching pill brands? My wife's stressed out because she has to decide what to do, and quickly.

Thanks

Sage

go to another gyno, pronto- call up ones in your area to see if they can take your wife ASAP so she can talk to one of them- i'm sure if you tell the person on the other end of the phone why you need to see another gyno, they'll be accomidating. DO NOT have your wife start this new pill- with the issues that she's having who knows what effect it will have, esp since your ass of an OBGYN didn't seem to care at all. Perhaps even have your wife go off of BC completely for a few months to see if that helps with the hormone thing, instead of just jumping from pill to pill. Let her body settle.

Also, I would suggest calling up this very rude doctor and telling them that you'd like to pull your record from their office, and that you will not be coming back to them for treatment nor will you be recommending anyone to their office. You have the right to get to your medical records, you just have to sign a release form. If you are met with resistance, be stubborn. You're money walking through their door, and if they treat you like crap, well, you can take yourself somewhere else!

Good job on trying to get this sorted out! Be supportive and remind your wife that the DOCTOR has the problem in this situation, NOT HER!!

__________________

greeneyes

To begin with, you absolutely should have been given that package insert. My recommendation would be to call Wyeth's Alesse line at 1-800-934-5556 and tell them a) you were blatantly not given one and by whom and b) you want to be sent one. It's a good idea to keep medication information on hand while you take it, especially if you just recently started taking it. That way, if she were to have an allergic reaction or something along those lines, you would be able to provide documentation of exactly what she was taking. You should do this for all meds, not just birth control.

As far as side effects go when switching, unfortunately all I can tell you is that every woman is different. She could experience any one of the following:

• breast tenderness
• spotting between periods
• headaches
• stomach aches
• naseau
• vomiting

Since these symptoms usually occur and are at their worst within the first four hours of taking the pill, have her try taking it right before bed.

I think you should absolutely see another physician, maybe someone that a friend or family member recommends so that you know you won't be going to an uncaring, insensitive jerk.

Good luck and keep us updated.

__________________
Put the blame on me
So you don't feel a thing

Go on and save yourself
Take it out on me

JamesB

It may have come up before but here it goes ...

My g/f of 9 years dumped me 3 weeks ago now (I'm 25) and during the last year and a half she was not really interested in sex at all. Towards the very end, she went as far as to tell me that she disliked being touched by me (almost at all).

I remember hearing some time ago that this type of behaviour suggests that your woman _may_ be getting sexual fulfillment from some other source.

In any event, it is IMPERATIVE that you talk to your woman about this RIGHT AWAY. Make sure that she is feeling safe/comfortable prior to your engaging in this topic. This can literally RIP your relationship apart - maybe not today or tomorrow, but when will you 'just need it' so bad that you can justify finding sexual gratification from someone other than your wife?

I REALLY hope things work out for you ..

__________________
-- apt-get install spare_time --

Acetylene

I wouldn't worry about what JamesB said. TheProf's wife is very concerned about her situation and upset enough to weep about it in a public doctor's office. This in not the behavior of an adulteress, who would be avoiding the issue or blaming it on her man for "doing it wrong".

Prof, your GYN should be servicing a different orifice--I think he would feel a great affinity for other assholes. I would not just try a different pill, because the difference is not so great; rather, I think your instincts were right about trying a different delivery method. I have tried 4 (pill, patch, shot, now trying ring) and they are all different. On the pill I feel great, but unfortunately I can't remember it well enough. On the patch I am plenty interested in sex, but get horrific mood swings and heavy period. On the shot, I only wanted sex maybe once a week (very low for me) and had my period for 2 months straight!

Getting a new prescription for a different method is easy through your regular doctor, so if you can't find a good GYN before the time is up, you can go to your GP. But you should try to see a GYN anyway just because they have better knowlege of the different options. Definitely ask your female friends if they have a recommendation. If they don't, then I would recommend a GYN who serves a younger audience because most ladies do their experimenting with birth control when they are younger and thus you will get a doctor who is more familiar with this kind of issue (as opposed to a doc who sees only octegenarians). You can find this kind of doc at clinics near colleges or in hip urban centers.

Good luck!

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.

abaya

Acetylene, what were your mood swings like on the patch? Also, how is the ring working out for you? Have you tried Progesterone-Only Pills? (I'm thinking about switching to one of the two latter methods, from the patch.)

Prof, definitely go somewhere else, and keep affirming your wife. She needs you more than ever in this delicate situation... sounds like you are doing a great job so far.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Acetylene

Abaya, I had killer PMS that started 5-6 days beforehand. The ring is working ok except it rubs on Kel when we make love :'( Progestin-only meds seem to damage my sex drive to varying degrees.

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.