LLL

My girlfriend and I have been together for about 4 years now and we've a pretty great relationship with lots of love and support. Even after 4 years we're still very touchy-feely and we still do lots of things for each other like making nice meals, going for walks, buying presents etc. She's easily the greatest girl I've ever gone out with and I can imagine spending the rest of my life with her...

... except there's one little problem: she doesn't seem to care about her weight, and I do. I care lot. I care to the point that it's really stressing me out... and I find myself caring more and more about it with time. This is one of the reasons we haven't had sex for about 9 months (I think she feels my uncertainly and reacts to it by not wanting to have sex with me)

I know we're all bombarded by impossibly-perfect ideals of how men and women "should" look and I know they aren't achievable unless working-out is your full-time job. I'm totally cool with that, and my previous girlfriends have generally been a nice womanly shape and not waifs. But they've also been fit, and they've at least been light enough to pick up! My girlf is technically "obese"; she's about 35% body fat and heavier than me.

I love her so much, but no matter what approach (passive... persuasive... logical) I take I can't help her to lose weight. What do I do? Do I break up with her? Do I take hypnotherapy to cure me of these thoughts (and if you think this, are you saying I should endorse something that's bad for her)? Is there another way to help her lose weight?

Gah, I feel so bloody shallow I really really need your help.

Makia

Well, I'm sure she is aware that you feel this way, and it's killing her self-esteem, which is not going to inspire her to take better care of herself, so you're basically stuck as far as I can see.

I have to wonder if you really love her as much as you say/think you do. For me, any time I've been in love with someone, I may notice physical flaws, especially at first, but eventually I just stop noticing and appreciate them for who/what they are--basically, they become attractive to my eyes even if they weren't at first. But, again, that's just me.

As I see it--and I'm not trying to be insensitive or anything--this is your problem, and not hers. Sure, she should probably try to lose weight for health reasons, as probably a lot of us could stand to, but she should NOT be put in a position where she feels she has to for you to be attracted to her.

(sorry I've edited this so many times)

LLL

Makia, your reply pretty much summarises my feelings about the whole situation. And yeah, it's definitely my problem - that's why I need your help.

Except the love thing, though. I know that "love is blind" and all and it really is - I'm madly in love with all of her little foibles and I'm probably completely oblivious to the rest. However, the exception is this one thing. This one big thing. This one big unhealthy (physically and mentally) thing.

Makia

Well, at least you admit that it's your perception that's the problem instead of blaming her. Sorry if I came off as judgmental or snarky--I admit I have a hard time seeing this from the perspective of the male.

Maybe you have self-esteem issues of your own, and they're manifesting as an obsession over her imperfections? People who are insecure have a tendency to pick apart the flaws of others. Not that I'm an expert or anything, just a thought.

Seaver

I disagree. Feeling attracted to your partner is absolutely required for a relationship to work. This Love-is-blind is a great ideal, but does anyone want to have sex with someone they are not attracted to physically?

I'm not saying she has to weigh a buck and a quarter for him to have sex with her, everyone has different tastes. She does, however, need to understand that needing to be physically attractive matters to you in the relationship.

The sad reality is in her current state, she has less desire to lose weight (and resolve the issue) than to do what is required. Losing weight is difficult, it takes a lot of dedication and hard work. However so do relationships.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

robot_parade

To be honest, I think it's clear you either have to get over it, or have A Talk.

And I don't mean get over it by deciding to put up with it, I mean get over it.

I'm guessing this isn't going to happen, since it's been so long that this has been an issue for you.

If you have a talk with her, I'm guessing that using the word 'fat' is likely to be a quick way to end the relationship, and you have to understand that this is likely a relationship-ending conversation no matter what.

If she *does* want to make a change to her weight and physical fitness (not for you, but for her), then maybe you can work something out that you do together - diet, exercise, etc that you do as a couple.

RetroGunslinger

I second this. If she wants to stay with you and keep you happy (which should be done vice versa) than she should take the extra effort to lose weight. The way you describe her, she doesn't care and sees no reason to try, and I can't help but find that ridiculous. It's one thing to be lazy--me sitting on the computer or playing COD4 all day is lazy--but it's another thing entirely to not care about yourself or those around you. Heck, if I got fat (snowball's chance) I would completely understand my girlfriend dumping me, because that would show I obviously don't care.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

Bear Cub

I think you're perfectly justified in what you're thinking. Not so much from the fact that she's "fat", but from the standpoint that its perfectly acceptable to want to be with someone who is physically fit. It shows their ability to care about themselves and their well-being, which is important for a healthy body and mind.

A talk is definitely necessary. You could try to put the spin on it that you're concerned for her health and well being, and emphasize that losing weight will make her feel significantly better about herself as well. Seaver made a great point in that its a way for the two of you to do something beneficial together, and your continuous encouragement and guidance throughout diet and exercise will also show your dedication to her.

__________________
Living in the United Socialist States of America.

LLL

@Makia - don't worry, you didn't seem judgmental. I'm probably going to hell for this anyway. As for self-esteem, I don't think it's that.

@Seaver - exactly. I very recently saw a picture of her when she was a teenager and much slimmer and she was STUNNING. She's still very attractive, but the whole fat thing is a real passion killer for me now.

@RetroGunslinger - that's the thing that really gets me. It's not actually how she currently looks that's the real killer (she was overweight when we first dated) but the fact that despite being told by an expert 2 years ago she was "obese" and she's done nothing serious about it. But it hasn't stopped me loving her - it just really winds me up how short-termist she is about it all.

@BearCub - I've tried that, but I have a suspicion I'm really crap at it because I've had really limited success. I've tried the "good for you" thing, but then this is a girl who drinks about 5 pints of strong beer every friday so "good for you" rarely cuts it.

Pity I can't afford a personal trainer for her, because I suspect that'd help loads.

Makia

I don't disagree with that at all, but I don't believe that anyone should lose weight for the sole purpose of fearing that weight gain is going to be a deal breaker in their relationship (speaking hypothetically--not saying that's the case here).

My point is not that he has to learn to live with how she is and somehow magically become attracted to her--it's that if her weight is this big of a deal, then this relationship can't last.

lotsofmagnets

i think i´m going to disagree with makia on this one. i think it´s understandable you want someone you love to be the best they can be, well as you perceive it anyway. she does sound like she is seriously overweight (obviously i can´t ask for pics to make a proper judgement) so i think the health angle is definitely a worthy point. may i suggest you lead by example. if you want her to work out then work out with her as it will improve her fitness and you´ll be fitter for it as well and if she sees an improvement in you it might spur her on to do the same for herself. but kudos for caring

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Cynthetiq

consider how shallow this is from a long term relationship perspective.

from a dating perspective.. sure it's fine, the commitment is up until there is a dealbreaker.

from a long term relationship perspective, the dealbreakers are of a much higher standard.

continuing from the long term, she's going to change, you're going to change. life will change both of you and your circumstances. this means becoming different people from what you are now in some fashion being it physical, emotional, mental, financial.

i know we've had a discussion like this, but if weight is a dealbreaker for you now, what happens say when you decide to settle with a woman takes care of herself etc, who follows what your desire is and then finds out later she has a thyroid problem. There's little she can do but gain weight, it's not her fault...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Makia

I think I'm beginning to see everyone's point, even if I can't directly relate to it.

I very much agree with the idea of leading by example. It's hard to want to lose weight when someone is just demanding it from you, but its different when someone wants you to do it WITH them.

RetroGunslinger

I think a big part of his problem is that his girlfriend's weight is something she could control given some amount of effort. At least that's what I got out of it and if that's correct, than your example holds no real credence. Having a thyroid problem isn't laziness.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

lotsofmagnets

i don´t think he ever said he said her weight is a dealbreaker. and it´s hard to say it´s shallow without evidence to judge by. saying she´s clinically obese means that her weight is significantly over normal weight. i went out with a girl who was a bit overweight and tried to help her improve her figure. that wasn´t the dealbreaker, her personality was the dealbreaker.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

LLL

@Cynthetiq - It is totally shallow, yes, and I've no problem admitting that I want the girl I love more than anything in the world to take better care of herself.

However, a thyroid problem and apathy are two very different things. Assuming it is indeed apathy, which it may not be, but it's definitely not a thyroid problem. Thinking about it, perhaps that's the problem: I don't even vaguely understand why she doesn't take better care of herself. Hmm...

God I so wish you were right. The time I've spent helping encouraging her in gyms has made me very fit, but not really done a great deal for her. I think she does find gyms boring though, which is to be understood.

@lotsofmagnets - yes, that's the case.

By the way, the title of this post was only meant to be eye-catching. I think most of you get the gist of the problem.

Cynthetiq

that's what my point is... is that in the longer trend of the relationship you'll have an idea as to what is acceptable and what is not, and what the root of that really is.

the physical problem trounces the apathy in some way right? or if it doesn't makes it extra clear to you what is important to you, as shallow as it seems but it is still important to you.

I believe since I quit smoking in 1997 I gained 10lbs, since I quit drinking 2 years ago I gained 20lbs...

I didn't really change my excercising habits (I live in a major city so I walk all the time) and over the years my income has increased so I do go to restaurants more often.

am I taking better care of myself? or am I not? taking care of ones self is a challenging concept...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

LLL

@Cynthetiq - I understand your points much better now. I think I agree.

canuckguy

I am not sure what advice I can offer but I wish you and your SO the best.

I have a feeling though that even if she did lose the weight that she will feel resentment towards you for past behaviors (good or bad). I would like to see her lose weight to be healthier and feel more positive about herself, if she can't do it for herself, she'll never be able to do it for you.

We all have deal breakers.


So you both work out together?

LLL

Okay, I reckon I'm getting some awesome insights here on the emotional level. But do any of you have any advice about keeping healthy in an enjoyable way? I like going to the gym, so it's no problem for me, but I'd love to help her find something she'd actually enjoy.

BTW, thanks for all your thoughts. If only all forums were this good!

amonkie

Tough place to be in.

I will say from a girl's perspective, I have had some of this type of conversation come up. In my case, the weight was gained after the relationship became more serious, due to a variety of factors.

I will be honest and say that I was very hurt when comments were made that the guy did not feel I was sexually attractive to him, but that he loved me 100% otherwise. Immediately, my own perception of my attractiveness skyrocketed down, because I also agree that sexual attractiveness is an important feature for a healthy sexual relationship, which we had had before having these comments made.

Now is the tricky part: deciding what to do about it. It is not his decision for me to lose or gain weight - who knows, I could be perfectly accepting of the fact that I'm not going to be the same size I was in high school - being fit may very well be the goal, instead of also reaching certain size dimensions.

If this is really that big a deal for you, I really think you need to find a new relationship. Unless you are willing to compromise with her and encourage her weight loss by actively noticing the positive changes and reinforcing those - both to her and yourself, she is left in the position of feeling like unless she stays at a size 6 forever, she is in danger of losing your attention.

Cyn made a good point about health concerns - maybe also consider her reaction if something was to happen to you. Say you had an accident and were unable to exercise since you had to stay off a foot, and gained 20 pounds. It happens. Would you fault her for finding you less unattractive, even though you are being ordered by a doctor to stay off the broken appendage for XX amount of time?

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

lotsofmagnets

i find cycling to be fun and quite a workout. drive less and walk more i suspect would also help (after 5 pints of strong beer she shouldn´t be driving anyway ) perhaps just look at what you do day-to-day and see what you can do in a healthier way in terms of both food and activity.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

amonkie

I might encourage her to try belly dancing ... I have really come to love it, and it does wonders for toning muscles and areas that I cannot reach as successfully in the gym.

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

LLL

@amonkie - I managed to lose a reply about the whole accident thing. The gist was along the lines of "I'm okay with the accident thing, what I'm not ok with is that lack of desire she has to be her best".

I do feel really really bad for these feelings and how I must be affecting her. If it's going to work it's going to take effort. I don't know really where I went wrong before - when she was working hard in the gym I was encouraging her loads and rewarding her (on many different levels) when she was doing well. I think she gets bored very easily though, and she grows weary of positive stuff quite easily if it requires effort.

Besides, I'm not looking for her to be size 6... I just want her to care enough to actually do something about it and stick to it for long enough to see some serious results.

Cynthetiq

So if she went to the gym 3 times a week and just walked on the treadmill or sat on the bike, but still didn't lose any weight, would that still be a problem for you?

there are many people I know who do just this... they say they go to the gym, they "excercise", they "eat right"... no change.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

LLL

@cynthetiq - that's precisely what she does when she goes. And yes, it does bother me. If I smoked normally 24 cigarettes a day, how impressed would you be if instead I smoked 20 a day for 2 years? There's trying and there's trying.

(I don't smoke, by the way)

Yes, this is very true. Many many people seem to think they have thyroid problems or "the fat virus" where in actual fact they do no exercise and eat like a horse.

That's why I was thinking maybe a personal trainer would help. I'm not a great personal trainer, I've found. Wish I could be though, because we can't afford one.

lotsofmagnets

having a bit more of a think about this. from my perspective a relationship is based on mutual respect and it certianly doesn´t sound like she´s respecting your opinion. perhaps you need to think about the state of your relationship. i´m not saying "dump her fat arse" in the least but your description is starting to draw striking parallels to my ex (who was only slightly overweight) and the weight was a symptom of rather than the root of the problem which turned out to be the general person she was (and probably still is.) maybe you need to sit down and talk to her in a concise manner outlining how you feel so she can see from your perspective. after 4 years of relationship you should be able to cut to the chase and know how to do so without being offensive.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Bear Cub

I think talking to her will also help you discover just how much she loves you in return. If she discovers the extent to which this bothers you, her willingness to at least try to change her lifestyle and become physically fit, you two have probably got a chance. If she immediately dismisses the concept of even trying to get healthy and begins accusing you of "not loving her", etc etc, then odds are, she's not remotely committed to the relationship, but rather, she's attempting to just cling to you because she fears her weight and appearance won't get her another boyfriend.


Back to your question of fun, healthy activities:
Rock climbing (look for indoor walls in your area)
Swimming
Hiking
Martial Arts classes
Sports (something like a mens/womens mixed softball league)
Rollerblading/rollerskating
Sex, if you can manage it
Cycling as mentioned
Geocaching (really adds something to the whole hiking thing)

__________________
Living in the United Socialist States of America.

Seaver

I'm sorry, but I'm going to stick with my original post.

It would be a different world if it were something she could not control. She did not gain 30lbs in 2 weeks, which would be what a thyroid problem would imply. She did not turn diabetic, or have any other medical problems.

She drinks 5 pints a beer a day, and only walks at the gym. "She gets bored easy" sounds like she's lazy at home. She stopped caring, and you've been convinced (in the first two posts at least) that you're an asshole for not appreciating it.

My personal feeling is 9months without sex... it's time to break it off. Only you know what is good for you though.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

pig

I'm sort of curious as to what your day to day is like. Given that some people are prone to gain weight more easily than others, but is she sitting around eating large portions and downing beer while you're having a salad and water? After the issue of sexual attraction and health go through, I think you're possibly looking at serious lifestyle incompatibility. If you're generally eating a lot of meals together and spending time with each other - that would seem to be an issue. If you want to go for a walk in the park, and she wants to watch TV or something...

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Willravel

It's not shallow not to be attracted to someone due to obesity. You've already stated how you feel about her and quite frankly you should get some sort of metal for going 9 months waiting for her to get started on the right track.

35% body fat is obese. She could have cardiovascular diseases, diabetes mellitus type 2, sleep apnea and osteoarthritis in her future if there's not some sort of lifestyle change in the near future. It's rarely easy to get in good shape, but it's never impossible.

If I may suggest? Exercise with her. Make it something that you both do, and that you can share. I can't tell you how many times I've hiked with girlfriends. It's great exercise and gives us plenty of alone time. Then you can share a shower later.

LLL

Those are interesting points. We spend lots of time together and cook for each other (I cook the main meal normally, as cooking's a bit of a hobby of mine*) and eat together. I don't think our lifestyle is fundamentally different, it's just that I motivate myself to doing things like keeping fit and she doesn't. I guess that's the main problem: we'd be so great together if it wasn't for that, but it's become a really big thing.

*And yes, I've tried reducing meal sizes.

Thanks for that. I was beginning to think I was crazy.

snowy

She sounds depressed.

Exercise will help that. The best way to go about it? Model healthy behaviors! Get yourself up and going, and start doing active things as a couple. My boyfriend was key in encouraging me to be active when I was trying to lose weight, and the activity will lift her mood. It's so much easier to be active when you have someone to share it with. We hike, we bicycle, we walk, we go to the park and throw a frisbee or kick a soccer ball around. At home I've become his abs coach, since I'm the one who's taken all the Pilates and yoga classes.

If you're going to model healthy behaviors, make sure that extends to nutrition as well. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You can't expect her to take your advice on healthy behavior if you're not sticking to it yourself.

There doesn't need to be a conversation about how you no longer find her attractive--yet. Just say you've decided that you need to get some exercise, and encourage her to join you. Structure the activities you do as couples to include some physical activity.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

LLL

Yeah, I was thinking this earlier. I mean, she's "happy" in a general sort of way, but I think she has a tough time being excited about - and committing to - the future. Her mum's the same, which is a bit worrying.

dlish

i was going to say the same thing as will and snowy-

do some activities together. if not sport, learn to tango or salsa or something. im sure youd both enjoy it and so would your love life.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Shauk

you can lead a horse to water, but she's gonna wanna have to drink it herself.

despite all the suggestions to do stuff together, more often than not I predict you'll run in to her whining or, to avoid seeming like she's whining, will suggest a non physical activity "Oh you know I really wanted to go see this movie instead" type of thing.

You've gotta be tough on her if she has no self disipline.

Cynthetiq

or accept her as she is.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jenna

I agree 100%.

Was she overweight the entire time you dated?

I know personally, I couldn't stay in a relationship that was so pressured to change your appearance. I would feel that it was VERY unstable and that I could lose the person at any time.

I guess I want someone who loves me for all I am, which includes my weight. I feel for her, I'm sure she's going through a really hard time mentally right now. I can't believe it's lasted for 9 months even.

My suggestion? Play some recreational sports. They're really fun, not as high pressured, but at least get you active. I really enjoy playing softball and volleyball because it's not centered around exercise, but you get some while you're doing it.

abaya

Has she ever been to individual counseling? If she is indeed depressed (which is also my suspicion--what's with the 5 pints of beer on a regular basis?), then that's the issue that needs to be addressed before the weight is ever going to come off.

And then there's the issue of body type. Not comparing her to what she was in high school, but to what her ideal weight would be NOW. I do think that there is a "good weight" for most people to be at, even if it's not super-model thin. For me, I've been hovering around the same weight for the last 10 years, so I'm pretty sure it's not going to change (doesn't matter if I'm working out, doing hard runs daily for months on end, or doing absolutely nothing aerobic whatsoever--my body composition changes from fat to muscle, but my weight still does not change). I don't know if it's the case for her, since obviously "obese" never = healthy, or ideal weight for anyone, but maybe if she had a more realistic goal, then she could be motivated to get it down.

I'm also thinking of my college roommate, who was a big girl but still did crew (rowing is one hell of a workout) for 3 years, 2 hours every morning, and also ran 2 marathons in her 4th year... and she always LOOKED pretty big, you know? She could never get rid of her rather noticeable double chin, no matter how healthy her body was... and she had German genes, so she just had huge arms and thighs, tummy, etc. But she could seriously kick anyone's ass, if necessary. My best friend is also a round, rather stout Filipina-American, and she's always been extremely active with sports (competitive swimming, tennis, running... she just finished HER first marathon, too), but again, her body shape never changed. She still looks very chubby and round, even if she can run for 27 miles with no problem. Both of these people ate very healthy, not large portions at all, so I know it wasn't the diet. They were in good shape. But they still "looked" fat. And guys did hold it against them. So what are their options?

Just some thoughts.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Acetylene

My 2 cents? Ultimatum time.

Nine months without sex, you don't have a girlfriend anymore. You just have a friend who is a girl.

You should tell her that she needs to meet you halfway here--you'll stick with her if she does these three things:

1. Stop drinking. I mean it, none at all. It ruins your blood sugar, a beer is worse than sitting down and eating a bowl of table sugar.

2. Get at least 45 minutes of exercise DAILY. You can break that into two chunks but don't listen to people who say it's ok to spread it out in 5 minute intervals over the day, your body's metabolism won't budge unless you force it to.

3. Discuss mood issues with her doctor. May I recommend Wellbutrin - one of the very, very few antidepressants that actually cause weight loss (most cause weight GAIN). It affects the brain chemicals that have to do with motivation and pleasure, and will really her get off her ass.

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.