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Old 06-09-2004, 07:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: Alton, IL
a dangerous trend in parenting

(I put this in living because children have as much right to this discussion as parents do. It concerns them together, but move it if you need to.)


Alright, this is directed at parents and how they treat their children. I understand the argument their house, their rules to a point, but you can only take this so far. Plenty of parents out there are neglectful of their children. They insult their kids, take away some of their freedom just to have someone to dominate, and generally don't do a good job of parenting.

A job is not everything. Minors will have a tough time finding any sort of job outside of maybe fast food. It can be very, very difficult, if not impossible to move out on wages like that. I don't think you'll find a lot of apartment complexes renting out places to minors. This forces them to move out with older people who are probably friends or boyfriends/girlfriends. If the person renting out the place has a problem with them for whatever reason, then it's life on the streets. What responsible parent wants to see that happen? Even legal adults can have trouble finding decent jobs. Don't exert pressure if it's not their fault they still live at home. I live with my parents because I haven't found a job able to support me until I finish my degree.


Parents need to come up with reasons for their rules. This is supposed to be a democracy. I know that this entails mostly legal issues related to voting and the government, but this country should have standards of decency stretching back to the families. If the parents don't have a good reason for exerting control over their kids, then why the hell are they coming up with rules like that to begin with? I like my laws to have a good foundation behind them, too. I understand their children may not be seeing the whole picture, but parents should have concrete motivations for everything they do. No one forced them to have kids. They have a damn responsibility to the life they chose to create. If they had children to make a generation of slaves or people to boss around and feel better than, then I wish them a speedy death.


After all, this policy of not asking questions does not work for the government, why should it work for families? Even homeless people have rights. You can't abuse or kill a homeless person just because you have a job and they don't or because you end up paying taxes and they don't. Maybe they didn't have a choice.


Not every decision can be regulated by the government, though. Children never had a choice who their parents were. You have a responsibility to ensure that their lives are as good you can reasonably make it, or you are just being selfish. This does not mean giving in to their every want and desire but neither does it mean you can be a hateful tyrant. Sure, the government says you can legally kick people out at a certain age, but depending on the situation, this may not be the best option for them. You must question why youa re taking such drastic steps, or you're adding another pontential problem to society. I've seen plenty of kids who moved out too soon having kids long before they are ready, doing drugs, and committing crimes. This is not a game, folks. This is reality. A parent's choices affect their childrens' lives.


Children and parents should have a good speaking relationship. I just don't see why some families don't see this as possible or acceptable. You should be willing to explain things to each other. Parents can teach kids, but kids can be teachers, too. A lack of communication could very well be a large part of problems sprouting up in a family. Don't set up brick walls with no human contact and no way around. I don't see why children should be treated with any less respect than adults. They are younger, but they are not stupid at any rate. The adults of tomorrow are the children of today, and they are your children. Talk with them and see if you can work out issues with your rules. Maybe you have to stick to your guns without negotiation, but do this sparingly and for the right reasons.

Threats and insults are not good for parenting. If you say this is the real world, well guess what? You are a big part of this world. If you don't like the way people treat each other, start the changes at home. Don't callously threaten your children with driving them out. I bet you'll have a fantastic relationship if they do leave. If this scenario doesn't bother you, think harder. You created a life, you nurtured this life for many years, and now you're caling it quits? You aren't a slave for your children but neither are their slaves for you. Think about how many mental problems and crimes have a root in bad family relationships. If you make impossible demands, you may find yourself the target of a lot of hatred and maybe no one will be there for you when you need them.

I find parents who excessively use threats to reign in their children are often abusive or neglectful. Studies have been done to prove this, but I'm not going to link or quote them right now. I mean it's pretty obvious a parent who begins and ends any objection with this is my house,like it or get it isn't all nice and friendly in other parts of his life. I'd be willing to doubt parents like that are good to their kids in the absence of any conflict either. Property is not all their is to life. This land was stolen from Indians anyways, and the government can take your land away with imminent domain if the situation arises. Maybe you should ask what gives you the right to claim maturity. If its work, many minors work, even as many hours as their parents, but still they don't get proper respect. If it's the type of job, I've seen 45 year old men working fast food, just like their younger counterparts. Does this make them any less of people? Foreign kids in sweatshops work many more hours than our hardest working parents or citizens and get paid dirt. I doubt we'd all be willing to call them mature adults though.

Maturity and respect need to be earned by parents and children alike. Sure, years don't dictate maturity alone, but many standards in this country (referring to the USA here) do indicate who is considered a legal adult. Once you hit 18, you can smoke and must register for the right to be sent somewhere to die fighting in this country's name. Not all minors or people under the age of 30 are whiny, immature, irresponsible, and deserving of our worst treatment. I'll be getting a degree in psychology soon, so family problems are a large part of what I'll be dealing with in counseling. I want to do everything I can to prevent the kind of relationships I've seen in the families of some of my more screwed up friends. This was not meant to be a flame but a reaction to a dangerous trend of blaming the victim. Just as all poor people are not lazy, stupid, criminals, all minors or young adults are not idiots, irresponsible, ungrateful, whiny, immature, and irrelevant. I'd appreciate if more parents could be teachers and even friends to their children rather than overlords and tyrants. Remember, anything you can say bad about other people and the world still reflects on you.

I encourage any responses. Forgive me if its a bit rambling or unclear. I was tired when I wrote this.
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Old 06-09-2004, 08:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I see your point, but I think it breaks down even before the "this is my house" becomes a situation. At the age of 14 my parents told me "if you don't like the clothes we buy you, then buy your own", from that point own, I got myself a job, and worked for everything from old clothes I'd buy off friends, to the car and insurance on that car I got as a teen-ager. I hated my parents at the time for not being "supportive" of me, and eventually moved out as soon as I graduated high school to start my own life and be rid of their "rules". Then, I realized why they did what they did.

In those years I worked for myself, I developed the necessary skills of responsibility I needed to survive on my own, and get by, and be successful. I think too many parents are neglectful, they say "When you turn 18 you're out of the house", or "Oh, you need money for tonight, here's $sum go have fun". I think children in both these circumstances do not learn to make choices for themselves. I have friends who still live at home, and their parents just give them money everyday, and they literally do nothing. I have other friends, who have been kicked out of their home, had a child, and moved back in with their parents because their parents want to make sure their child is taken care of, and then that person who was kicked out, leaves the child as their parents' responsibility and continues the lifestyle they were having as though they didn't have a child.

It's a touchy subject, and I don't have any answers as to how it should be done. I do feel parents need to realize what's best for their children, and not one answer will be the right one for each person, because we're all different. Putting one person out on the streets can lead to completely different results as any other person.
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:25 AM   #3 (permalink)
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There's a lot of bitterness in what you wrote, gondath. How much of this comes from personal experience? How's your relationship with your parents?

It was the most liberating day of my life when I realized that my parents did absolutely the best with me that they knew how to do. They were the best parents they could be. I didn't come with a manual, you know. They were just kids when they had me--20 and 21--and there's no way they could have done any better than they did. And look at me now! Obviously they got the job done!

Finding something like that to say is a whole lot more productive and empowering than a three-page rant on how parenting "should" be done, IMO.
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ratbastid
There's a lot of bitterness in what you wrote, gondath.

...

Finding something like that to say is a whole lot more productive and empowering than a three-page rant on how parenting "should" be done, IMO.
Yeah no shit. Sounds like somebody is still pissed off that his parents took away his Nintendo...

Oh, and shouldn't this be in Tilted Parenting?
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Old 06-10-2004, 05:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Parents need to come up with reasons for their rules. This is supposed to be a democracy.
The country may be a democracy, but my parents' house isn't. I think a parent has a right to come up with any rules they see fit to keep their children safe and teach them responsibility, as long as it's within reason. My parents didn't have to tell me the reason behind their rules because I already knew. Why can't I stay out past 10 on a school night? Because it's a school night. Why can't I stay out past midnight on a weekend? Because my parents want to make sure I get home safe before they go to bed. Why do I have to do my homework before I eat dinner? I need to learn not to procrastinate and put things off to the last minute.

Sometimes the rules don't make sense to us, but if you just sit down and think about them for a minute and put yourself in the parents' shoes, you'll see why they're there.

If the parent is fully supporting the child, then they have the right to make the rules without any input from the child.
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Old 06-10-2004, 07:27 AM   #6 (permalink)
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While there are many dumb and idiotic adults, nearly every child is quite stupid.

You really get alot smarter every year when growing up. Some adults never "grow up": but I'd suspect they wouldn't be sufficiently compitent to learn from any rant like the one above.

Now, I'm ashamed to admit that I think I had good parents. No threats to kick us out, no arbitrary rules (hell, I think the biggest rule was "Don't worry your mother, call home and tell her where you are.") I was expected to not be a dumbass, so I wan't one.

You can support yourself living on minimium wage. Share a 1 bedroom apartment with 3 other people, own nothing beyond a wallet and a few changes of clothes, and I suspect you could even live in a large city this way. It won't be a pleasant life.

Life isn't fair. This is something to be adapted to, not something to rage against. Live your life, and leave the planet more fair then when you arrived.
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Old 06-10-2004, 07:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I see more where you're coming from gondath then these other guys I think. I mean we never asked to be put on this planet, but now we're here, and unless we commit suicide we are here to stay. But hey if I wanna live in a house I have 2 options, try and make money doing bullshit work that no one should have to do, or live in a house with parents that impose rules on you that might prevent you from living a life you want to live.

I'm very lucky and have parents that don't impose lots of rules on me. If I'm out really late I don't have to call them to tell them where I am (If I'm gonna be gone until the next morning I do anyways), and they don't try and force morals and shit on me.

I think this countries whole way of life is a bit fucked up in many areas, but thats another thread entirely.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:07 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Life is not easy, nor is it fair.
My children are raised to understand this, in this way they set expectations that are realistic, and understand the reasons for rules. Even at four years old.

My Sig says it all.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:37 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_wall
But hey if I wanna live in a house I have 2 options, try and make money doing bullshit work that no one should have to do, or live in a house with parents that impose rules on you that might prevent you from living a life you want to live.
First of all, what "bullshit work that no one should have to do"? Grow up! My first job was flipping burgers at McDonald's, back in the 70's, when we still wore paper hats. I was damn glad to have that job, because jobs were hard to come by. And yes, I made minimum wage, which was $2.90 per hour, at that time. Then I enlisted in the Air Force, where I spent the next 8 years of my life.

No, my friend, there is no such thing as "bullshit work" when you need a job. You are, in my opinion, just plain spoiled. If you want to live the life that you want to live...then get the hell out there and bust a damn sweat to earn the right to live that life. My guess is that your parents did. Whatever happened to starting at the bottom and working your way up?

I'm done ranting now. Otherwise I'm just going to have to PM myself with a warning for flaming.

*walks off muttering something about these damn kids today*
Damned if I don't sound just like my dad.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by The_wall
[B] I mean we never asked to be put on this planet, but now we're here, and unless we commit suicide we are here to stay.

I dont want to start flaming here, but that is about the most ungrateful and immature thing you could possibly say. I find it particularly hurtful when children say things like this because there are many people merely clinging on to life with terminal illnesses who would give ANYTHING for a few more days.

Grow up, and then maybe you will be seen as an adult.
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Old 06-10-2004, 09:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I've been edited because I don't know how to address a thread topic properly...
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Old 06-10-2004, 09:13 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I hate this thread for the sole reason that, like Bill O'Rights, I've come to the realization that I sound like my parents...

Curse you for making me feel this way!
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Old 06-10-2004, 09:19 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_wall
I would write a reply but its time for me to get ready to go to BUULLLLLLLLLLSHHHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTT work.
Well Boooo fuckin Hooo...
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Old 06-10-2004, 09:40 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Now now now, there's no reason to show such hostility for this boy. It's not his fault he's so misguided. Society is to blame. His parents are to blame. Heck, let's even blame school.

He could end up in jail, or worse and well, he doesn't have to call his parents, because, well, he's an adult and can do whatever the heck he wants.

Quote:
Originally posted by The_wall
But hey if I wanna live in a house I have 2 options, try and make money doing bullshit work that no one should have to do, or live in a house with parents that impose rules on you that might prevent you from living a life you want to live.
He hasn't learned yet that people do "bullshit" work every day to put food in the table, and clothes on their back, and a roof over their head. They do "bullshit" work to survive. He's going to make money the old fashioned way, sponge off his parents, and that way he can have the life he wants, sleeping til noon, staying out all night, not being responsble for anything.
And having his own morals too, I can only imagine what they might be...
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Old 06-10-2004, 10:03 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Don't hold "bullshit" work up as something holy. But realize your father and your mother are probably out doing bullshit work every day. Your bed was paid for with bullshit work. Your clothes where paid for with bullshit work. Your diapers where paid for with bullshit work.

Was it as bullshit as the work you are doing? Maybe, maybe not. But realize that your parents have already invested the cost of a small house (at the least) in raising you. Enough for them to slack off for a year or two or more and not have to do any bullshit work.

To understand what you owe even bad parents, imagine working for 3 years at the job you are at. And not seeing a dime you earn, and not accepting food handouts from other people or shelter (including your parents).

First, work long enough to save up 3 years living expenses. Now, work for 3 years, giving every dime you earn to your parents. That is about what your parents gave up by choosing to raise you.

Could they be bad parents? Quite possibly. Could they be horrible parents? Ayep. Do you still owe them gratitude? Yes.

"Honour your Mother and your Father". It isn't just an empty religious commandment. It is a piece of advice that has survived for thousands of years, and still applies.

Edit: seplling
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Last edited by Yakk; 06-10-2004 at 10:33 AM..
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Old 06-10-2004, 01:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: a dangerous trend in parenting

Post removed.

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Old 06-10-2004, 01:56 PM   #17 (permalink)
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The only reason parents need to give for their rules is "Because I said so."
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Old 06-10-2004, 03:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Why is that, Derwood? Imagine this scenario. A parent enforces a 9 pm curfew on all nights, nails the windows in the second floor of their daughter's room shut, and tells her she cannot leave her room unless given permission. She happens to be 16, also. The girl has done nothing wrong, and her parents refuse to discuss the issue. Is this alright? And if so, why? Because I said so doesn't work for a discussion on message board, in case you were confused.
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Old 06-10-2004, 03:04 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: a dangerous trend in parenting

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Minors will have a tough time finding any sort of job outside of maybe fast food. It can be very, very difficult, if not impossible to move out on wages like that.
This is for a reason that minors have a hard time finding other work. Work opportunities and wages are most often based on experience. Also I can think of a lot of factory type jobs that are open to 16 yr olds and pay even better than fast food. When I started out working I sometimes worked 3 part time jobs at a time to get more income. I have worked, fast food, waitressed graveyard shift at a truck stop, and done housekeeping. None of which are glamorous jobs. They're all steps in the right direction.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
I don't think you'll find a lot of apartment complexes renting out places to minors. This forces them to move out with older people who are probably friends or boyfriends/girlfriends. Don't exert pressure if it's not their fault they still live at home. I live with my parents because I haven't found a job able to support me until I finish my degree.
Why are they forced to move out? If the parents are abusing the minor the government can be brought in. Kids can live in foster homes. I know it's not perfect but things can be done. If there is no abuse and the kid is just being spoiled then they aren't going to succeed on their own anyway.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Parents need to come up with reasons for their rules. This is supposed to be a democracy.
A family is not a democracy. In fact our nation is not really a democracy even. It's a republic. Parents should come up with reasons for their rules. In a perfect world they would be able to communicate those reasons to the child. We don't live in a perfect world and not all children are exactly geniuses or understand their parents reasons.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
I like my laws to have a good foundation behind them, too. I understand their children may not be seeing the whole picture, but parents should have concrete motivations for everything they do.
Most parents do have a motive for their actions. Most parents don't simply pull rules out of their head for no reason at all. Most problems with children understanding their parents rules is a different sense of priority.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
No one forced them to have kids. They have a damn responsibility to the life they chose to create.
If they are supporting the kid - i.e, putting a roof over their head(even if it be an efficeincy apt), clothing, and feeding them - then they are doing their responsibility. Anything beyond that is not a requirement. Name brand clothes, gourmet food, and giving the child their own bedroom is not a requirement - it's going above and beyond DUTY.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
You can't abuse or kill a homeless person just because you have a job and they don't or because you end up paying taxes and they don't.
You can't abuse or kill a child either for ANY reason.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
A parent's choices affect their childrens' lives.
Yes this is very true. BUT once you are an adult you are responsible for what YOU do with your life.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Children and parents should have a good speaking relationship. I just don't see why some families don't see this as possible or acceptable. You should be willing to explain things to each other. Parents can teach kids, but kids can be teachers, too. A lack of communication could very well be a large part of problems sprouting up in a family.
Yes this is very important. Communication is one thing that is essential in marriage and family. Kid do teach you a great deal as well. A teacher is not a good teacher unless they are learning too.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Threats and insults are not good for parenting.
Yes you are right. Blind threats and insults are degrading and break down communication. If a parents threatens instead of simply giving consequences for the childs behavior then the child cannot trust the parent to keep to their promises - Promises for punishment or for positive reinforcement. Giving a child appropriate consequences for disobedience is not a blind threat and is good parenting.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
I mean it's pretty obvious a parent who begins and ends any objection with this is my house,like it or get it isn't all nice and friendly in other parts of his life. I'd be willing to doubt parents like that are good to their kids in the absence of any conflict either. Property is not all their is to life.
I heard my parents say this to my brother. Their requests were QUITE reasonable and yet he refused to listen. They asked him to pay rent and they would drop most of the rules - he agreed but never paid up. So they asked him to move out as he was 18. He wanted the rights of an adult so he must take on the responsibilities. It was their house - they had done the work to get the nice house they had. We could have grown up in an efficiency apt but it was important to my parents to earn enough to pay for a nice house (3 bedroom - not fancy) in a good neighborhood. THEY earned the house and THEY had the right to say how people behaved in their house.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Maturity and respect need to be earned by parents and children alike.
Yes we all need to work to be worthy of respect and we all need to strive to continue to mature all our lives. Children should give respect to their elders though as life experience is a great teacher and parents and adults have more life experience than children. Granted some adults and parents are immature louts but the number of immature adults is smaller than the number of immature children (including 17/18 yr olds).

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
I'll be getting a degree in psychology soon, so family problems are a large part of what I'll be dealing with in counseling.
I hope you will have developed a more open mind before you begin practicing. The problem does not solely lie with the parents. Children - especially adult children are responsible with what they do with their own lives. I've seen some children who grew up in foster homes because of abusive parents actually turn into some of the most mature, responsible, giving people I know. It's up to you how you deal with it.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
This was not meant to be a flame but a reaction to a dangerous trend of blaming the victim.
The victim should never be blamed. Especially when it comes to a crime. I assume you are referring to the child as being the victim? Are they the victim of abuse? or of rules? Rules are a part of life. You must learn to abide by them or apeal them in a calm logical manner. Too many people today are claiming to be the victim and giving their lives over to the victimizers. Where is the fight? Why let it dominate your life? If you have been dealt a rough spot in life you deal with it and you move on. You don't get bitter because bitterness will eat away at you and affect only you. You are then victimizing yourself. The Victim mentality is self handicapping. You choose your response to trouble. Choose to push forward to improve yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
I'd appreciate if more parents could be teachers and even friends to their children rather than overlords and tyrants.
A parent and teacher is FIRST a parent and teacher, SECOND a friend. A parent who tries to be a friend who do anything to make their child happy even to allowing them to do things that may not be as healthy for them. A teacher who strives to first be a friend and make their students happy first will loose control of the classroom, the students will become disruptive (trust me I've seen it) and no one will learn. How can you teach if no one is learning. A parent can become a friend but should not strive to be one first place. A parent should LOVE their child as much as is in their heart to love. A child will recognise that unconditional love and that is better than just trying to be the child's friend.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
nails the windows in the second floor of their daughter's room shut.
Why would they even come up with the idea to nail the window shut on the SECOND floor?? Has she snuck out before? Then she has done something wrong - broken a curfew. An early curfew sucks but it's not going to end your life - trust me I endured one at 18. I put up with it because I knew I would be better off staying home and getting my schoolwork done and going to bed at a reasonable hour. Whether you comprehend it or not there may be good reasons for rules that parents put up there.
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Last edited by raeanna74; 06-10-2004 at 08:51 PM..
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Old 06-10-2004, 03:56 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Location: Alton, IL
First off, Raenna and anyone else who feels the need to, stop with the personal attacks right now. Do not insult my choice of profession again. I don't appreciate callous remarks like that when you're basing all of your assumptions on one post on a freaking message board. I don't take kindly to run by slander.

Lets get into the realm of tolerance for a moment. You assume all minors are mostly immature. I would suggest that most adults have no more maturity, but this is not an assumption I am willing to stand by one hundred percent. It is exactly that- an assumption based on preconceived notions. Ageism is just as wrong.

Why must all underage people be viewed as unable to be reasoned with, immature, ungrateful, etc? Ask yourself what makes them this way if it turns out to be true. People do not develop in a void. Their parents are a big part of who they end up as when they become adults. Hmm, we don't live in a perfect world. Like I mentioned before, your families happen to be part of the world. If you don't like the world, then change your own actions. You can't blame some amorphous, uncaring society for issues that can be readily approached and solved. Why can't families communicate? I just cannot fathom why it is not possible for parents and children to come to an agreement. It's seems like a default stance for a lot of people to come down hard on minors and let parents get off scott free. It really shouldn't work either way, but the focus here is on parents because enough threads bash on the outh of today for how badly they have turned out compared to "the good ole days." Lets be honest- there was never some golden age of family love, and sure, problems can arise, but it's a willingess to sort things out and be firm only if there is no other option.

As for abuse, there are more types of abuse than physical or mental. There is verbal abuse. Many parents insult and degrade their children. Seeing them as idiots who are unable to hold a conversation or make reasonable choices will not help them in any way. If anything, you create a chasm between you and your child which will not be overcome until you learn to respect one another. I can say I've met a lot of people who tried to kill themselves at one point or seriosuly considered suicide more than once. Often, they worked many hours and their parents laid down harsh rules and paid little or no attention to them otherwise. It's the home environment that goes with them when they leave the house and interact with the rest of the world.

Like I said before, nobody cares what you pay for. I work, you work, everybody works, but nobody forces you to have a kid. You can't use money as your only excuse for how you parent your child. If the parents really have concrete reasons like you say, then why can't they be communicated? Because I said so won't work if a social worker is called. I can assure you they won't be amused. It doesn't work for the government either. If a law is passed or taxes or raised, we want to know why. We don't just accept it on good faith. I don't accept on good faith that every parent makes right decisions just because they are adults. Not every single decision has to be a bargaining excercise, but I'm mostly targeting what I see as extreme parenting, which seems to be quite common. I am not using absolutes or condoning paying for every last little want a child can have. Their needs are what matters, and what they need is to be listened to, respected, and to respect in turn.

As for the love part, don't assume the tough love theory will pan out. Love must be shown, not derived. What one parent might think is love for a child might be yelling at them and making them pay rent even before they turn 18, but this doesn't make it right. A parent is not a landlord, for one. I mean, Jesus, if the kid works already, why must he pay the parents unless they are poor? Just don't give out as much money for extras to him and pay for the essentials. If they have already turned 18, even then they may not be able to find a worthy job to support them, depending on where they live. Plus, depending on the course of study, a full time college student may not be capable of holding a full time job. I don't see working like three jobs 65 hours a week being an acceptable alternative. The Japanese have a syndrome where they work too hard and die from the stress. It's common over there. Here, overworked people tend to make mistakes, have problems with friends and family, or turn to drugs.

Next, a little bit about victims. They don't have a choice as to what happened to the, which is why they are called victims. Bad parenting doesn't give a choice. It can come down to, in some cases, follow my demanding rules or else welcome to life on the streets. That can be like a car veering into your lane and then deciding whether to hit it or a tree. Ultimately, it was never a choice for the driver. Children who come up against brick wall reasoning don't exactly have a choice. I could poke you with a stick and then laugh when you get mad, saying you don't have to get mad, choose your destiny. We can't always choose how we respond. It depends on the circumstance. You can't be empowered unless you have control. You can't have control if someone is dominating you. Then again, we're talking about unreasonable, stupid children here, remember? They don't have a voice. You can't expect responsible reactions to situations when they come from an environment where they have been viewed as irresponsible and irrelevant. Not all children are victims of their own parents. That is true, but they also get enough intolerance already from the rest of society.

Other than that, some good points. One last thing- I am not blaming parents for everything. I am acknowledging their share of responsibility. They have a great deal to answer to for choosing to bring a child into this world. Some parents do a fine enough job of raising their kids. Most could use a bit of fine tuning in their style, but again this is directed mostly at the more extreme views and not the moderate ones.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:19 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Not a flame: I seriously hope that you are getting help for your anger issues before you think you will be able to help anyone else. Psychology is a noble profession, but you best be sure that you have your own house clean before you start working with others on theirs.

---------------------

Why is it unreasonable to expect a young adult to hold a job? Why is it unreasonable to expect a young adult who has graduated from high school to start to pull his/her weight in the family.

Do you know how many adults, with families to support, and mortagages to pay, and other things, work fulltime AND are also go to school to further educate themselves? Full time student who can't work is a lame excuse.

To be honest, it gets a little old hearing young adults complain about rules. Rules exist where ever you go, at every age, a young adult may have a curfew now, that's good practice later in life when that same young adult has to get up for work.

A lot of psychology is about listening, you have two ears, one mouth, you should listen twice as much as you talk, instead of deciding that everyone else is wrong, how about giving people a chance, it's what you want other adults to do for young adults.
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Old 06-10-2004, 04:47 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Ok, right off the bat, I am sorry I mentioned what profession I am going into. It's like I invited myself to be flamed. I had a feeling people would be making references to that, instead of providing support for their arguments, but I digress. If you absolutely must make a connection between psychology and the issue of parenting, be informed. Don't say what a psychologist is supposed to do or be unless you have some experience in that area. I'm not trying to shut down debate on this particular point here. I just think it's a bit off topic. I only brought it up to show you why I am so concerned about it and how it might relate to me directly in the future. Truth be told, mentioning it wasn't a point so much as a detail.

Again, I see a comment directed at me without provocation. I don't have anger issues. I am commenting on what I see as unworkable parenting methods. I don't see a relation between my posts and anger. I am trying to keep the tone civil and mellow here.

Let me make a side note here. Psychoanalyzing a person is based on patterns over a LONG period of time, not a few comments or actions. Many people misuse psychological theories to backup their personal beliefs or simply base their assumptions on too short a period of time. Just like you aren't diagnosed as depressed until around 6 months of symptoms, you don't say a person has anger issues after reading three posts on a message board. Anyways, I had to clarify that.

This topic is not a comment on all parents everywhere or all children everywhere. Go back and read ALL of each post here and you will see that. I still have yet to see a complete line of reasonable defenses on why so-called "tough parenting" works, or why there seems to be so much hostility directed at youth. I didn't make an assertion that all parents or all people are wrong. It's not solid rules that are in question here. It's a combination of strict discipline for its own sake, miscommunication, and why some youth never get the benefit of the doubt.

Minor point- I specifically said full time job, not part time. Some students can't continue with their majors and do well while holding full time jobs. The same holds true for high school students. It's really a case by case basis. Don't expect everyone to have the same threshold. Stress affects people differently. Adults who work full time are typically part time students. It's rare to find those who are full time in both. Paying rent should definetely be based on whether the person has a full time job or not. If he can't get one, and he has to pay for everything out of a part time trickle of cash, that rent can be harsh. Maybe he could do work around the house to make up for the lack or just buy food whenever possible. Deals can be worked out.

Let's get back on topic. If you disagree, don't attack. Instead, explain. Tell me why you think the parents who do these sorts of things and make threats are in the right. I've seen a dabbling of it before it gets off topic. Continue the line of discussion.
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Old 06-10-2004, 06:55 PM   #23 (permalink)
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i'm not gonna defend tough parents, but I'm always willing to attack loose ones. I'd say a good 95% of the kids of my high school who had loose parents (very late curfew or none at all) ended up being the partying beer drinkers that are now struggling for jobs or to get through college. On the other hand, 95% or so of the kids with strict parents (including me) who didn't let their kids out late or let them get away with stuff are doing very well for themselves. These kids (including me) fought with their parents over these rules, but the parents didn't budge. Looking back, I am very glad my parents were strict or I would have certainly ended up like an old friend of mine (who's parents were not strict) who is struggling through life. Am I saying strict parents lead to successful kids....no. But through my experience it seems that way. Am I saying loose parents lead to unsuccessful kids....again no, but through my experience, this is the trend that I have seen in my home town.
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Old 06-10-2004, 07:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
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1) no one who's mentioned your chosen future profession has flamed you for it. no one has said anything bad about it. if you think waht has been said are flames, you need to get thicker skin, otherwise you really won't make it in the real world.

2) in your last post, you state taht you were expecting people to reference your chosen profession, "instead of providing support for their arguments." you have provided no support what-so-ever for your arguments, all you've done is made blanket statements and accusations about all parents, adding a line or two that there are some good ones, but all you see is bad (outside of your last post, where yoru statement doesn't really back up previous posts) you keep making assumptions of things and blanketing them. well, all you've been giving examples of are worst case senario's and cases where the kids don't get what they want and have everything spelled out exactly for them (which is horrible, it's abuse!). hate to break it to you buddy, not only does the world not work that way, if parents did that then kids would be leaving the house and getting hit by a hard reality.

3) do you have an anger issue? reading your posts, it seems like it. have you been civil? yes. but there is an underlying tension, an underlying vibe of "i hate my fucking parents, they didn't give me everything i want and do things my way, fuck them, fuck them, fuck them." maybe we're wrong, but that's what your posts seem to be saying.

4) you say "I still have yet to see a complete line of reasonable defenses on why so-called "tough parenting" works, or why there seems to be so much hostility directed at youth." i have yet to see anythign that says "tough parenting" doesn't work, nor do i see any hostility towards youth in amounts that are more than negligable.
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Adults who work full time are typically part time students....
My Dad DID it.

Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
If you disagree, don't attack. Instead, explain.
I have tried to explain. I have tried to stay on topic. That is why I quoted portions so that I could address specifically what you said and stay on the subject at hand.


When precisely have I PERSONALY attacked you? I was not aware of that nor was it my intention. Please explain what I said that specifically offended you?
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Old 06-10-2004, 09:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Wow you people say have an open mind and that you are mature and adult....

I am a parent of a 5 month old boy. That isnt a 16 year old girl but I can see why some rules are applied to a child or teenager such as a curfew. But there are times when a parent should allow their children to grow up and have a bit of fun.

I was 16-17 and going out with my friends with a curfew and I wasnt to happy about it. Then I thought about it and told my mother that I was going out I would be back when I was back. She decided to tell me I could not go. I had a car gas keys and nothing to lose but the shit hole of a house I called home that I was paying for and getting no say in. the "because I said so" became the screw yourself mom I am going out and if you dont like it you can go back to the bar you crawled out of and eat some peanuts. After all that my mother came to know that I had grown up and that I wasnt going to put up with the bullshit anymore.

though I was bold and a tad on the crazy/stupid side I did what I had to do to get what I wanted and that is what "adults and grown people" do. If something needed to be disucused from that point on it was and it was done on equal ground. If it wasnt she learned once again that I wasnt a child anymore and was able to do as I saw fit.

To address those here that flamed Gondath and yet seem to not understand where he saw flames. what ever happened to survival of the fit? You dont even know when you are insulting someone. You are the reason Calibine and any other act of aggression has ever been acted apon in our school system. People that are either to stupid to understand and comprehend how something affects a person or think that those people dont matter and their feelings should not be taking into consideration.

If you dont like what I have said and feel that I am wrong you are welcome to flame the board all you want but if you have the real balls come on over to my residence and find out what I really feel toward you. Alton,IL and you come on over to 529 state and you can find me from there. I will be awaiting the first victum

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Old 06-10-2004, 10:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Ok, I actually did miss quite a few of the posts on this board. I must have scrolled too far or something. Forgive my last two posts if they made it seem like everyone was flaming or something to that effect. I was just referring to a few specific comments along the lines of I don't like what guy x is saying, so I insult him instead of his logic.

All I can really do is get through this with logic, unless you want studies quoted. A lot of them have been done and quite a few end up being contradictory. Plus, I don't really feel it's too necessary for this intended purpose.

I have tried my best not to put anger into my posts, but to be honest, yes it does make me angry a bit. I'm curbing what little it does fuel in me though. When people do things I consider to be harmful, I do tend to get upset even though I try to go through the matter rationally. The anger isn't really directed at any posters so much as the situation being discussed.

Kudos to the many good responses.

I don't see suicide as ungrateful though, if that's what the meaning was of one particular post. It's not very funny if a person sees no help, no way out of a current situation, except to get a gun and do some head removal, at least not that person. I suppose you could laugh or say some people are terminally ill and want to live but can't. The real difference is they have reasons to live. They must have some measure of control over their lives or else one hell of a fear of death. It doesn't do a lot of good to compare the two. I could have my arm cut off and say well, at least I didn't get thrown into fire to burn to death. I could say that but getting my arm cut off still sucks.

Where do I get off saying there is hostility at youth? Lets start in this thread and many others on this very site. A lot of people are saying how kids are ungrateful, whine if they don't get tennis shoes, etc. Alright, it seems to me these posts are angry in tone, very angry, and I've seen a lot of them along these lines. Even when topics are addressed to the severities parenting can take rather than looking at what happens when a child gets spoiled, shots are still being taken. When does it get serious? I guess it doesn't if you don't see this as a problem.

I am being a bit general to avoid targeting specific parents. I don't have to say Bob Smith treats his kids like dirt for you to get the gist of it. The statements I make are specific, though. I rarely say all or every unless seems ends up being in there somewhere. If you bother to read every line of my posts, you see that I'm not telling you how things are or should be. I'm commenting on a general practice I see happening and offering suggestions.

Ok, against my better judgement I'll clarify what I meant about the flaming. Understand what I'm about to tell you and then drop it. I'm not counter flaming. I don't want you to get upset or feel insulted. Hopefully, we can move on after this bit of clarity.

Raeanna74 make a comment that upset me about me needing to be more open minded before going into psychology. This insults me and my choice of profession. Of course, I got upset. The part she relied to says typically most adults don't go full time on both work and school. This is because college work can be very demanding, unless you can get easy classes. Since they adults already in the full time working world, I don't see them going back for blow off classes and an easy degree. Other than the one comment, nothing else was said, but it was big enough to catch my attention.

Jesus, going back I missed a huge insult. Averett made a flip comment about me getting my Nintendo taken away. I have been trying to provide some solid support for why I believe in what I posted and why I think it needs to stop. Silly comments aren't going to add anything significant to this discussion.

Maleficent told me to resolve anger issues before going into psychology. This is part two of mentioning my future profession. I saw a trend and commented. It was based on two people, but I felt it needed addressed. Let me state again for the record: you cannot psychoanalyze a person through a few posts on a message board. It just is not possible, even if you did view me as angry. An emotional overtone does not mean you have a mental disability. Not everyone who disagrees with you must have something wrong in the head. It takes time to come to conclusions about mental health. Part three was when he told me to listen more before becoming a psychologist. First, we're reading here, and I do read all the posts. I admit I missed a few but not intentionally. I am avoiding hypocrisy as much as I can here. I don't like to be accused of it. I edit my posts to avoid insulting people.

Hannukah Harry, the few, and I admit it was only a few comments by a few people, and I've adressed them here, people who insulted me did it openly. There was no interpretation here. I simply asked them to stop without directly confronting them the first time. If you end up insulting someone, don't tell them to just take it, especially not here. This is a discussion, not a place to attack the personalities of the members of the board. I give examples time and time again of what I'm talking about. I suggest you do the same, or at the very least not make blanket statements about me when I haven;t done so. What more do you want? Ask and you shall receive. You provide another example where I supposedly mention kids getting upset if they do not get what they want or have everything spelled out for them. I did not say this. I mentioned needs specifically in the case of what must be given. Why can't families discuss things? I just don't see why telling your kid to do something with no explanation is wrong if he asks you directly. I'm not seeing it. Please explain what is so horrible about a dialogue within a family. Maybe the government should stop letting us know when laws get passed or what the penalties are for breaking them because they do hold the power, after all. You can see the point here, I'm hoping.

Ok, thus ends the directed comments. I didn't mean everyone was insulting or that no useful comments at all were made. Keep in mind I also missed a lot of posts, too, when I made that. I will get offended if I get insulted personally because I just don't agree. Most people who do so are ignored, but not here where discussion if supposed to be foremost. Moving onwards.

Praising the good parents does nothing to fix the problems with bad parents. This is why discussion is necessary. I bring points to your attention in the hopes of eventually solving or at least alleviating the problem. Otherwise, it gets ignored or dismissed, and the problem lives on.

I sincerely hope no underlying tension is seen in my posts, though I don't see how I could be both civil and angry. The thought makes my head want to explode. I am leaving my personal life out of this. My comments are directed at the rest of society, not at my own parents. I'm not on a crusade to hang my parents. I also won't be bringing them into this because it's not relevant. They would somehow become the focus of what I'm trying to say when the issue does not concern them. If you feel talking about your own family life can help your side of the story, then do so. However, I don't feel the same way.

Let me present exhibit a- the wall. He did seem a tad angry but mentioned how his family is and gave his position. He got flamed from older posters simply for being young and angry. Apprently, some people don't think he has a right to be angry or even complain. This is a clear example of animosity towards youth. Make a note if you need to. We know little to nothing of his life other than what's he's told us, yet he was called spoiled, misguided, and generally not treated very well here. His post was not an insult to anyone. The comment on bullshit work was never defined. He never said exactly what bullshit work is, and even if you disagree on what is and what it isn't, it doesn't do a lot of good to insult him personally. Just explain to him. Blasting on a post with a subjective opinion on what hard work entails, or how a person is suppose to live is a rant. That's ranting, not a longer post where you try to describe your viewpoint. He didn't insult his own parents even. Sure, work is work if you have to do it but some jobs get no respect in this country. You can work hard at fast food for years and yet still a greta number of people will tell you it's not a real job, or it doesn't involve real work when it does in actuality. The part that can make it a bullshit job is respect. Some jobs get you no respect. That can be hard. Anways, jobs are a bit off topic but that's my two cents. I do wonder why he was targeted instead of the unfriendly posts, though.

Anyways, most of this bit was clarity of one form or another. I'll be adding more later on.
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Old 06-11-2004, 05:44 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Derwood
The only reason parents need to give for their rules is "Because I said so."
I am quoting myself because I think I was unclear.

My point here is that as long as you are a minor and your parents are supporting you, then at the base level, their rules are their rules, period. As long as they aren't breaking the law or are abusive, then wha they say goes.

I am not, however, saying this is great parenting. Quite the contrary. I am a parent of a 15 month old girl and even though she doesn't understand much of what I say to her, I never tell her "no" without giving a reason. Admonishment comes in the form of "No, we don't hit the dog" or "If you pull on the cord the lamp is going to fall on you", etc. I hope I can continue to provide reasons for my rules and discipline in the future.

HOWEVER, a parent giving a reason for the rule does not mean it's open to debate with the child. If I read you correctly, you don't like the fact that parents have rules without reason and that these rules should be discussed for "fairness." While I agree that good parenting would mean that you understand why your parents are making the rules that they are, I don't agree that any rule that the child disagrees with should be open for discussion. Sometimes parents really do know best.

I guess I was lucky, because I grew up in a very loving home with rules, some strict, some not. I can't pretend to understand what life is like growing up in a single parent household, or one with parents who are drunks, negligent, etc. I'm sure the hostility and anger there are something I can't comment on. Perhaps a poor choice of example, but I just saw "8 Mile" and that was about the polar opposite of my upbringing.
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Old 06-11-2004, 05:44 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Raeanna74 make a comment that upset me about me needing to be more open minded before going into psychology. This insults me and my choice of profession. Of course, I got upset. The part she relied to says typically most adults don't go full time on both work and school. This is because college work can be very demanding, unless you can get easy classes. Since they adults already in the full time working world, I don't see them going back for blow off classes and an easy degree. Other than the one comment, nothing else was said, but it was big enough to catch my attention.
I had intended no insult to you or your choice of profession. I wanted to encourage you to go into your profession with an open mind, not assuming one party was the victim, and one was the victimizer. Many family conflicts are not one sided. There are points made on both sides sometimes and a counselor is there to help them resolve their differences. The child should not expect to have NO rules and the parents should try to set reasonable expectations and rules. Going to help these family relations and communication you cannot start out by blaming either person or they will shut down and ignore every thing you say after that. Accusations will shut people down, questions open them up. Go into every new family situation asking questions and not placing blame to begin with. Every situation is just slightly different.

I had not intended to make a connection between your profession and adults working and going to school full time. I don't know how that connection could have been made.

With regards to students making their way and attending school - I can name you MANY of my alumni who worked their way through college and supported themselves. They took seom semesters off to work and save up but they did it. Many didn't finish in less than 5 years but they had no student loans when they finished and they supported themselves throughout. It is possible. It isn't unreasonable to expect someone to do it. It is all based on your self-motivation.
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Old 06-11-2004, 07:06 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Gondath,
First let me make an obvious observation. The world sucks. If it didn't we would all float away!

Now that the comedy portion is out of the way....Lets get back to that. The world sucks. Parents do not have a guide book. All they have is what they have experienced, what they have seen and what they want for their children. Sometimes it is a whole lot easier to say "because I said so," than to try an explain the reasoning behind a rule. It could be that they think the kid IS an idiot, or they don't trust them, or they have a completely irrational fear that you are going to get shot at a party, and if they told that to the child it would harm them, cause an arguement, etc. But you will find there are rules everywhere. When you go to work, you follow the bosses or companies rules. When you drive, you follow rules of the road. If you work for yourself you follow the customers rules, or you won't have any customers. In a lot of ways following your parents rules, wheter you agree with them or not, sets you up for the rest of life.

The only way to parent is to parent. At this point you have no idea what it means to be a parent. You think you do, but you have no idea. Just like you know what it means to be a pilot, you fly the plane around. But do you know how to fly the plane, what to look for, how much flap setting you need for what speed, what speed you need to be at to take off or land, etc. No! Someone teaches you. Well, there are no REAL parenting classes. No one to tell you which rules need a reason, which ones don't, which rules are just and which ones aren't. No one to tell you if what you do today is going make your kid a drug addict, or a doctor down the line. You do not know whether what you do is right or wrong until you do it. All you can do is your best. If what the parents do angers the kid, well it kind of sets them up for the real world, it sucks! The parents are doing what they feel is best for the child. I know I am, and that my parents did.

So try not to put down parenting until you have tried it. You won't be forced into it, as long as follow the rules: use birth control, or practice abstinence, otherwise you may end being a parent.
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Old 06-11-2004, 09:12 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I dont think you people are gettin what Gondath here is saying.

Let the Nicklogic explain.

A parent says "You have to be back by 10"

The child says "Why"

Parent says "because I said so"

Child thinkings what the heck

Now here is where to child and parent could and should talk even if the parent is not going to change thier minds. Its not that fact that the child can change what the parent said but that he can understand why and if its discussed then if the rule is unfair the parent is more likely to see that and change it to more suite whats going on.

An open line of communication between a parent and child does not mean in any way that the child is making the rules or such things. I means that the child is taught why a parent would say something and take away that underlying feeling of oppression that a child would get if the parent told him to be back at 10 or else. Its not likely that a 17 year old would not understand the reason of a parent, but more that he would have insight to why and also that would make him at very least not feel that his parents are on some power trip.

Thats what it boils down to.

In conclusion, you as a group should be more open minded instead of telling someone that came and posted a general consern to bring it to the table and discuss it that he should have an open mind. Personal attacks are just showing that you have nothing to add and then coming back and saying you dont see where you insulted the person. and then still sticking to the story are you have been quoted and shown where and how it was offending is showing that you just wish to cause conflict and that isnt neither open minded nor intellegent.


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Old 06-11-2004, 09:41 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonStoneblade
Personal attacks are just showing that you have nothing to add and then coming back and saying you dont see where you insulted the person. and then still sticking to the story are you have been quoted and shown where and how it was offending is showing that you just wish to cause conflict and that isnt neither open minded nor intellegent.
Since you last posted on this thread I see NO ONE who has posted PERSONAL attacks on gondath and I see that we have tried our best to stick with the subject matter. What in the world are YOU talking about?
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Old 06-11-2004, 12:54 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by raeanna74
Since you last posted on this thread I see NO ONE who has posted PERSONAL attacks on gondath and I see that we have tried our best to stick with the subject matter. What in the world are YOU talking about?

Let it go.

Quote:
Originally posted by
A parent says "You have to be back by 10"

The child says "Why"

Parent says "because I said so"

Child thinkings what the heck

Now here is where to child and parent could and should talk even if the parent is not going to change thier minds. Its not that fact that the child can change what the parent said but that he can understand why and if its discussed then if the rule is unfair the parent is more likely to see that and change it to more suite whats going on.
Been here, done this, caused nothing but problems. 17 year old does not think the reasons hold water. Continues to argue, bitch and moan. Just better to not go down that whole road sometimes. Sometimes parenting is just making a decsion and not giving a better reason than "because I said so." When you get to this point in your life, you will remember this thread and smack yourself in the forehead, because then you'll get it.
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:08 PM   #34 (permalink)
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What is the response of the child to "here are some of the reasons why we have this rule": is it picking the reasons apart, proving that the rule is invalid, then asking for the rule to be removed?

Second, there aren't always reasons for rules. No, really. A good chunk of societies rules are there simply because they are there. You can build up rationalizations around them, but most of those rationalizations are not the reason behind the rule, they are just the reasonings people have made about the rule.

Some rules exist to form habits (as noted with the curfew rules), some rules exist to reduce the chance of a harmful thing happening, even if that harmful thing is rare. Some rules are dumb. Distinguishing between them is an exausting and difficult process.

Imagine if you had to justify, verbally, why you should be allowed to make a stride. Every time you want to put one foot in front of the other, you have to defend your choice of foot location, explain why it is better than other places where you could put your foot, show how it moves you towards your goal in the most efficient manner, demonstrate that the place where you are going to put your foot is legal, going back to treaties with the aboriginals, and show that the ecological impact of your footstride and the damage to the ground/shoes/self is justified against the gain of moving you closer to your destination.

Now, some strides are stupid. Sometimes you walk in the wrong direction, sometimes you step in front of traffic. However, as a rule, having to justify every step you take is a silly and counter productive thing to do.

Having to justify every rule a parent places on a child is analagous. Yes, a parent can constrain a child with "bad" rules. However, the discussion of which rules are good and which rules are bad isn't an a priori good thing to have in every situation.

Yes, "leaving home" is a very dangerous, difficult and uncomfortable thing: it could mean delaying or not doing school, living in squalor, and many other things which you might think are unthinkable. I wouldn't advise it. The alternative to it is obeying the rules your parent places on your life. Possibly some of the rules are bad. Your parents unwillingness to justify them, however, is not evidence that they are bad, nor is it unreasonable.
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:24 PM   #35 (permalink)
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The basic point I'm trying to get across is to avoid telling children what to do without any discussion. Giving a reason is a step in the right direction, even if it's as simple as that. Some people here seem to think I am saying children need veto power of their parents, but that was never my intention. I think a lot of parents are more threatened when their sense of power is challenged rather than because they fear for the safety of a rebellious child, but it could go either way.

Parents do need solid reasons for imposing restrictions. I don't believe in rules for the sake of rules. It makes no sense. I would take away many of this country's laws if I could. Explaining motivation to a child gives the parent a chance to review his own actions and see if they hold up to reality.

Consider a scenario where a child doesn't end up a complete deviant but hates his parents. He doesn't do drugs or have a string or broken relationships with women, but he hates his parents because they never talked to him. They always tried to limit his freedoms without any sayso from him, up unto his college years at the points where he came home for the summer. He hates going back there and being around them. Is that what people want? It's really a terrible situation.

Again, I am not targeting all parents. If any one person here gets offended, then it must be hitting close to home. I accepted that possibility when I first posted, but I don't see why it has to by that way. I'm not letting ineffective parents get off scott free either. I don't plan on having children though. Unlike most of the world, I can admit I won't be a good parent and not suffer under the delusion that I will be. The world has too many people anyways.

I do think there should be parenting classes. I highly encourage a standard system to be developed. Winging it isn't always the best solution when a person's future is at stake.
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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jasonstoneblade - if the first post had been posted like your last one, maybe this thread would have gone differently. but the opening post came off as an angry rant against all parents. that just saying "because i said so" makes one a bad, mean, horrible parent, the basic gist (jist?) of the post seems to be that parents should give kids whatever they want, the kids should not have to work, and all rules should be democratically come to so that a child can have fairness. what is fairness? to a 14, 17, and 25 year old that will be different for each of them. in your last post, you give us an example of a 17 year old with a 10pm cerfew. now, while i believe the parent doesn't need to give an explanation, i also think that it most likely won't change the kids opinion anyways. you see, 17 year olds are often thoughtless and self centered. i know i was, and so were manyof my friends. sometimes explaining a rule will do nothing but cause a fight because the child doesn't want to listen to his/her parents authority.

you (jason) may have had a rough upbringing and felt you had nothing to lose when you disobeyed your mom (you said it was shithole and insinuated your mom was an alcoholic) and had a good outcome. you may have at 16/17 been mature enough. not every kid is, many aren't. and if you were working and contributing money and getting no say, well, if you're financially contributing, it doesn't matter the age, i think you should have a bit more of a voice. but most kids don't.

and finally, you said "Wow you people say have an open mind and that you are mature and adult...." i don't remember anyone claiming to have an open mind, and not only that, having an open mind is not accepting all ideas, its considering all ideas and then discounting those that you feel are wrong. i think that's waht's gone on here....

oh, and if any thing i've posted has been taken as an insult, sorry. no insults intended, but i don't feel the need to coddle people, and am often blunt. if that comes off as an insult, oh well.


edit: oops... 3 posts sincei started writing... havne't read them yet. and got rid some stuff already said.
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Old 06-11-2004, 02:58 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
The basic point I'm trying to get across is to avoid telling children what to do without any discussion. Giving a reason is a step in the right direction, even if it's as simple as that.
Does the parent have a duty to explain themselves? You are claiming they do.

I am claiming they have no such obligation. Sometimes it would be good, and it can result in good things sometimes.

Other times it is counter productive.

A curfew of 10 pm for a 17 year old for instance. There are valid arguements on both sides. I could produce 100 reasons for and against such a cerfew.

But, in the end, the reason why there is a 10 pm cerfew is simply because the parents made that decision.

Some reasons:
Because more crimes happen at night.
To increase the chance you will wake up earlier.
Because there are fewer adults wandering around during the day.
Because you need sleep.
Circadium rhythms.
So the parents are not disturbed by people coming in late.
Makes casual sex a small amount harder.
Teaches you that the world contains stupid rules that must be followed
The morning is beautiful
Changes the ratio of your peer and adult interactions
Allows you to produce more vitamin D.
Means you can do chores in the morning.
Makes finding a job easier, and holding the job less stressful.
Makes it more likely you will eat more meals with the family
Teaches you how to keep track of time
Gives you another reason to look forward to moving out
Keeps you in the habit of obeying house rules in an easy to detect way
Diet

Should the parent list the 100 reasons for there to be a cerfew? Would it matter if the child disproved or argued against 99 out of those 100?

Quote:
I think a lot of parents are more threatened when their sense of power is challenged rather than because they fear for the safety of a rebellious child, but it could go either way.
And many children challenge the power of their parents because they resent that power.

The discussion might be useful, if the parents and the children are the type of people who like discussing things.

What if one or the other aren't?


Quote:
Parents do need solid reasons for imposing restrictions.
And here is where you are quite possibly wrong.

The reason "to get the child used to following and having restrrictions" is a reason that can apply to almost any rule.

Quote:
I don't believe in rules for the sake of rules. It makes no sense.
What if I told you most of society runs on rules for the sake of rules? Down to how you move your eyes when you talk to someone, what clothes you wear, how you walk, what you say, what actions will get you beat up... All are based on a huge set of rules which often exist because they exist.

Quote:
I would take away many of this country's laws if I could. Explaining motivation to a child gives the parent a chance to review his own actions and see if they hold up to reality.
Some people are good at, and enjoy, introspectively examining their actions and motivations. Others aren't good at it and don't enjoy it. They are unsettled by things being unsettled.

People think quite differently. And you have to learn how to deal with people who think very differently from you. Some find questioning rules for the sake of questioning rules just as disturbing as you find rules for the sake of rules.

The scary thing is, both have a point.

Quote:
Consider a scenario where a child doesn't end up a complete deviant but hates his parents. He doesn't do drugs or have a string or broken relationships with women, but he hates his parents because they never talked to him. They always tried to limit his freedoms without any sayso from him, up unto his college years at the points where he came home for the summer. He hates going back there and being around them. Is that what people want? It's really a terrible situation.
The reaction to the parents is as much under the child's control as the parent's actions where under their control.

Anyone who hates someone simply because their personalities don't mesh has more problems than parents who don't understand.

There are parenting classes, parenting books, parenting manuals, parrenting gurus, parenting beliefs, parenting advisors... And the one thing they all have in common is, most of them disagree with each other.

Humanity doesn't know how to parent. They don't know if corperal punishment is absolutely wrong or not, they don't know what rules you should give your child, when they should be relaxed, should the rules be negotiable...

Parenting is a hard problem.

If humankind knew how to raise children, possibly a mandatory class teaching people how to do it would be a good idea. But, we don't. So, people muddle through.
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Old 06-14-2004, 05:35 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I thought ALL teenagers hate their parents. It's just part of growing up. Most get over it.
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Old 06-14-2004, 10:58 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I think the assumption that children should be allowed to discuss the rules is flawed. Discussion of the rules often very quickly leads to debate about the rules. Children then begin to see this as a right they have - to debate with their parents. This 'right' begins to permeate throughout the childs life. Dad asks kid to do dishes. The child then feels they have the right to debate the merits of the chore. An argument ensues. Either the dishes dont get done, and the child can succesfully spoil themselves by arguing with teh parents, or the child does the dishes because her father told her to.

I think "because i said so" is also an important life lesson. It teaches respect for authority, trust, and faith. A child ( and i use that term intentionally. As has been shown time and time again, many 18 yr olds are still children) needs to understand that their are time when they must suck it up, and do what they are told simply because the authority told them to. Obey first, ask questions and understand later. It also teaches the children to have some degree of trust and faith in their parents that they are making the correct decisions. Often times in life, and more often as a child, you simply will not understand the why of things as they happen. you simply have to have faith in those with more experience than you.

i would also contend that it is not the parent's job to explain the basis for their decisions, but rather the childs job to figure them out. Rather than attacking them with why you cant do something, stop for a minute and try and think about why they might not want you to. Its not always all about you. Again, the parent needs to be seen as a figure to be obeyed first and foremost.

All of your points seem, to me, to be based around the idea of discussion, then obedience. I dont think this is healthy for the relationship, or for the well being of either party involved. i think that if obedience comes first and foremost, and healthy discussion AFTER would be, in most cases, acceptable.
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Old 06-14-2004, 03:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
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The purpose of this thread was not aimed at whether kids should have the right to consider doing the dishes or not. I'm directing this at more major decisions which could affect their lives.

Lets stay on the dishes for a moment. The assumption, for me at least, is that the kid has already been told which responsibilities are his. They already talked about it, so it is reasonable to assume he does the work assigned to him. The only comment needed by the parent is if the duties seem unfair compared to the other children.

I don't think obeying first and questioning later makes sense when curfews, dating, etc. are involved. It's not the child job's to puzzle through a situation if his parents are limiting freedoms to the extent that they interfere with his life. I don't know where the burden of guilt started getting put on children, but this is specifically the dangerous trend the title refers to. Almost every posted automatically assumes the parent is right from the beginning, and we're only talking in hypotheticals here. It's the major rules that have the most effect and warrant the most discussion. Also, younger children are mostly exempt because they don't have a very good sense of what's going on to begin with. At 18, you are far old enough to have a conversation with your parents. If not, something is wrong. After all, in the US, you have to register for the "privilege" to go off and die in a foreign country. The term child is very loose and has been used to describe people from birth to age 24. I may have used child or kid but not as a demeaning term or to be imply they are any less intelligent or capable than those older than them.

Respect for authority has mixed messages. I think the person should learn to respect both the one in charge and the task, but the former only if he continues to make good decisions. This requires an investment on both parts. All minors should have some work responsibilities to get them used to regulating time.

Last edited by gondath; 06-14-2004 at 03:48 PM..
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