Peryn

That may be where you are directing it, but thats not where its going to stop. Once you give the child the right to decide what is 'fair and unfair', or what they should or shouldn't be able to do for major decisions, it will become part of their everyday life in all tasks.

the right to question "major decisions which could affect their lives" will soon turn into teh right to question minor decisions which wont affect their lives. You might not want to admit it, but observation and experience will eventually show you otherwise.

Now im not saying a conversation about decisions isn't a good thing, but that obedience is a better life lesson than teaching them that if they dont want to do something, argue about it until it turns out your way.

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Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

gondath

I specifically said discuss, not question and then refuse to go along with. I see no evidence that dialogue will lead to anarchy. This is directed at older children moreso than younger. Think 12-14 years old on up. The point is to prevent children from being in oppressive situations where they have no control over their own lives. Hard tactics may keep them in line initially but destroy trust and prevent a healthy relationship from forming.

SecretMethod70

Since when is being involved in one's own life a bad thing? Having decisions explained, and being able to discuss those decisions with one's own parents has nothing to do with whether or not a parent has authority or anything of the sort. TYhere's a reason there's a stereotype of the rebellious teenager - by that age humans are BIOLOGICALLY driven to leave home. If you want to have a healthy relationship, this is something that needs to be understood. Biologically, teenagers are being told that they should be making their own decisions, yet someone else is still making them for them, so they need to be given some sort of say - even if it isn't the final say - in their lives.

Parents are not dictators. At least, not good parents. By the time a kid is a teenager (which, just by using common sense, is around the age gondath was talking about), if a parent doesn't have a good reason for a rule, it shouldn't be there. Who has the final say? The parent for sure, but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed with the child. The entire reason I have respect for my parents is because, for the most part, I've been able to play an active role in my own life. If I didn't agree or understand something, I could discuss it and most of the time they would explain it. It's not hard to give a good explanation - the kid doesn't have to agree with it, the point is simply to give them a reason so they at least understanbd where you're coming from. People wonder why there are so many bad parents these days, it's pretty hard to know what to do when your parents just made decisions without giving more of an explanation than "because I said so." People wonder why kids don't listen to their parents - perhaps it's because they've never been given a good reason to. Kids are smart - even if they don't admit it out loud, when you give a reasonable reason for your decisions, they respect it, even though they may disagree with it.

If you want the surest way to a relationship lacking mutual respect and understanding, keep giving answers like "because I said so." Every person I know whose parents used that as their predominant excuse, rather than open dialogue, is worse off because of it. Parents are not infallible and by the teenage years, kids know this, so stop acting the part. Kids know by then that, yes, sometimes parents are simply wrong in their decisions, so admit it. For every one time a parent admits they were wrong or misguided, a kid will accept the parent's decision 20 more times. This isn't brain surgery - I've known this since I was a kid myself - the most powerful tool of manipulation to getting what you want is admitting when you're wrong.

No one said anything about arguing. There's a HUGE difference between an argument and open dialogue, or a debate if you will. And, actually, being able to present your own point of view and make a case for it in a diplomatic way is an even greater lesson than obedience. It's the stuff that makes good leaders and decision makers, and it's because of all those years of DISCUSSING decisions with my parents that I'm good at LEADING decisions now.

Of course, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the best way to handle it is not to discuss the reasons for decisions at the time of their making, it's to discuss them beforehand. Have an open dialogue with children about how you feel, and what your concerns are, and likewise theirs. If you're on the same page and understand where each other are coming from, it's much easier to simply make a decision and they understand it.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

gondath

Exactly. I believe kids will find dialogues with their parents empowering because they will feel their opinions are respected. Parenting doesn't need to be a power struggle between the child and the adult. I wish less parents thought like that. It did disturb me that someone mentioned people who are not comfortable discussing problems like that. I like to think everyone is capable of talking. There are simply the willing and the unwilling to do so.

kurty[B]

On that note, I do look at my relationship with my parents, and some of my friend's relationship with theirs. Communication between my parents and I has always been rather minimal, and most of that is mainly due to their strict religious/moral beliefs. While they support being open-minded, and free-thinking, they themselves really aren't when it comes to certain subjects. But this leads into my shpeal on organized religion which is a different thread altogether.

gondath

I have an inkling that a lot of the obedience model of parenting has its roots in religious beliefs of the past. I could be wrong about this trend, but most Christian religions don't support disobeying your parents or suggest an open line of communication other than to state what is evil and what is good. I'm glad someone mentioned it.

SecretMethod70

Well, that can be said about most religions in general. I know many Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha'i, etc, as well as Atheists and I haven't noticed any sort of higher level of "dictator" parents in Christian families. That said, there are fundamentalists in every religion. Couple that with the old addage that even the devil himself can use scripture to serve his means, and you've got dictatorial parents. The ratio of good parents to bad is likely the same across religions as well as those who have no religion, it's just that the language is different.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

pinkie

As a parent, there are things you do not explain, and things that you may end up explaining, but didn’t have to, in order be fair, but did anyway. Then there are things that you do explain. You explain them because if you don’t, the value of the lesson is lost. Remember that communication is the key to any relationships, and is obligatory in parenting as well. In my opinion, as a parent, you get the respect you give.

I’m not defending the kid that asks, “Why do I have to do the dishes?” because when it comes to stuff like this, I don’t like an argument. I think there are certain things you can just say, “Because I said so,” and leave it at that. But there are rational things, and there are irrational things. I have not yet decided whether your parents are acting 100% reasonable and rational yet. I never just give the parents the benefit of the doubt, for being the adults.

Instead of telling you, “You have anger issues,” Id like to ask you why you’re so angry with them? I don’t think you’d mind having a “shit job” if you felt like you knew or understood where your parents were coming from, and from what I’ve read, you don’t.

One thing that you wrote was something about having “windows nailed shut, and bedroom doors locked?” I’d like to ask you more about this. Was this your parents that did this?

Sorry if I’m way late coming in here, and I’ll understand if I don’t get a response. I also didn’t read this thread word for word because of its length, so don’t hurt me if I quoted you wrong.

gondath

No response is too late, and I make a habit of reading every word of every thread whenever possible.

I wasn't referring to anything that happened to me. None of the examples refer to my own life. I took pains to avoid mentioning my own relationship with my parents because doing so would have derailed the discussion no matter whether I had said it was good or bad. Personal details often lead to personal attacks unless you are in a situation where everyone respects and is comfortable with everyone else in the group. This is obviously not such a place, much as all of us wish it was. I have mostly used real examples from people I know or have heard about.

I think you got me confused with the wall on the issue about the job. He did seem angry, but I'm not sure that fact alone means he doesn't understand his parents. You'd have to get him to post again for clarification I suppose.

Anyways, late comers are appreciated.

iflyadash8

I think that raeanna74 would make the better shrink!

gondath

Ouch.

Cynthetiq

as a kid i learned early on my own rights. I learned my rights as a child under the US laws. I learned that I had none. ZERO, my parents were to speak for me.

Until I was recognized by the State as a responsible citizen, only then could I be respected as such. But even then it's not 100%...

http://www.empirestatecoalition.org/emanc.html

Q. 1.1 How is Emancipation defined?

A. The term emancipation applies to youth over the age of 16 and under 18 who are:

(1) living separate and apart from their parents;
(2) not receiving any financial support from them (except by court order or benefits to which they are entitled, i.e. Social Security);
(3) living beyond the parent's custody and control; and,
(4) not in foster care.

Emancipation involves the renunciation of the legal obligations of a parent and the surrender of parental rights over the child. It may occur when a parent is unwilling or unable to meet his/her obligations to one's child or when a child refuses to comply with the reasonable rules of a parent and leaves home.

In New York State, there is no Emancipation Statute or court proceeding in which an Order of Emancipation can be obtained. In New York, the status of a youth as an Emancipated Minor depends on the facts. Whether an Emancipated Minor has the same rights as an adult depends upon the relevant law.

Emancipation does not give a minor adult status in all areas.

An Emancipated Minor is not allowed to vote;
An Emancipated Minor is still required to obtain parental consent to get working papers and is limited in the kindsof jobs he/she can perform;
An Emancipated Minor cannot bring a lawsuit and must have an adult commence any litigation on his/her behalf;
An Emancipated Minor cannot buy, sell or control real estate;
Age and consent requirements to marry apply regardless of emancipation;
An Emancipated Minor cannot join the military;
An Emancipated Minor is subject to statutory rape laws and age requirements governing consent;
An Emancipated Minor cannot get a learner's permit or driver's license without parental consent;
An Emancipated Minor cannot rent a campsite;
Parental consent is required to obtain routine health care. As in any case involving a minor, an emancipated minorcan obtain health care without parental consent when it involves an emergency, a sexually transmitted disease, family planning services, alcohol and mental health treatment, or if the minor is pregnant, a parent, or married.
Q. 1.2 Who can be considered an Emancipated Minor?

A. Although there is no court proceeding in New York to have a young person declared an Emancipated Minor, New York Law recognizes the status of emancipation and the rights of emancipated minors. To determine whether a young person is emancipated, the following factors are critical:

The youth must be living apart from his/her parents;
The youth must be self supporting (may be receiving public benefits or child support if required by court order);
The youth is not in need/receipt of foster care;
The youth is living beyond the custody and control of the parent;
The youth is over the age of 16.
Q. 1.3 Does the status Emancipated Minor help or hurt a young person?

A. If a young person can establish his/her emancipation through the test above, then the young person would have the following rights:

The right to retain one's own wages;
The right to sue for parental support if the parent forced the youth to leave home;
The right to establish his/her own legal residence and attend school where he/she resides;
If needy, eligibility for certain public benefits (depending on the circumstances of the young person's emancipation);
Keep in mind, that depending upon the reason the young person left home, his/her parents may not be obligated to provide support (food, clothing, shelter) to the young person.

Q. 1.4 Can an Emancipated Minor sign a lease?

A. An Emancipated Minor has the same rights as any other minor to enter into a contractual agreement. As a general rule, if a minor signs a lease for an apartment, the minor cannot be held to the lease, but the landlord can. In other words, a minor can "disavow" the contract. This is why many landlords are reluctant to rent to minors.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

gondath

Point taken. I knew emancipation existed but had no idea the exact extent of it. It is good to know minors have legal choices available to them over the age of 16. I can only hope that not very many of them are forced to take such a drastic measure. I find the status of emancipated a little odd. They can enter contractual agreements and sue but not get health care without parental consent. I'm not sure being emancipated would be a whole lot better than staying in a foster home, but I suppose it's a good last resort.

SecretMethod70

Normally I would just edit this, but it's been here for awhile so no point in removing it. Plus, I think it can be used as an impetus for a reminder for EVERYONE as this topic is revived.

This comment added nothing to the discussion and was little more than an entirely uncalled for personal attack. Please keep personal attacks to yourselves. Trolls are not appreciated.

I also wanted to add, on topic, that I generally agree with pinkie. It's pretty clear when a kid is asking for an explanation to be a smart ass and when they genuinely don't understand. When a kid asks why he or she should have to do the dishes, they're being a smart ass. When a, say, 14 year old asks why they can't stay over at a friend's house one night (a friend who we'll assume is a good kid as well), I think it's important for a parent to explain their reasoning. It doesn't mean the kid will like it necessarily, but there is respect to be had in someone stating WHY they made a decision, even if you don't agree with the decision, as opposed to the appearance of an arbitrary decision made solely on the basis of keeping the kid from enjoying himself.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

gondath

I agree. Debate should never be an excuse for laziness. It's assumed people in a household will have work divided out relatively evenly. It should only be an issue if the kid does all the work and his siblings don't have to do any and are the same age or something like that. Work is an important part of learning responsibility, for sure.