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gondath · 06-10-2004, 03:56 PM

First off, Raenna and anyone else who feels the need to, stop with the personal attacks right now. Do not insult my choice of profession again. I don't appreciate callous remarks like that when you're basing all of your assumptions on one post on a freaking message board. I don't take kindly to run by slander.

Lets get into the realm of tolerance for a moment. You assume all minors are mostly immature. I would suggest that most adults have no more maturity, but this is not an assumption I am willing to stand by one hundred percent. It is exactly that- an assumption based on preconceived notions. Ageism is just as wrong.

Why must all underage people be viewed as unable to be reasoned with, immature, ungrateful, etc? Ask yourself what makes them this way if it turns out to be true. People do not develop in a void. Their parents are a big part of who they end up as when they become adults. Hmm, we don't live in a perfect world. Like I mentioned before, your families happen to be part of the world. If you don't like the world, then change your own actions. You can't blame some amorphous, uncaring society for issues that can be readily approached and solved. Why can't families communicate? I just cannot fathom why it is not possible for parents and children to come to an agreement. It's seems like a default stance for a lot of people to come down hard on minors and let parents get off scott free. It really shouldn't work either way, but the focus here is on parents because enough threads bash on the outh of today for how badly they have turned out compared to "the good ole days." Lets be honest- there was never some golden age of family love, and sure, problems can arise, but it's a willingess to sort things out and be firm only if there is no other option.

As for abuse, there are more types of abuse than physical or mental. There is verbal abuse. Many parents insult and degrade their children. Seeing them as idiots who are unable to hold a conversation or make reasonable choices will not help them in any way. If anything, you create a chasm between you and your child which will not be overcome until you learn to respect one another. I can say I've met a lot of people who tried to kill themselves at one point or seriosuly considered suicide more than once. Often, they worked many hours and their parents laid down harsh rules and paid little or no attention to them otherwise. It's the home environment that goes with them when they leave the house and interact with the rest of the world.

Like I said before, nobody cares what you pay for. I work, you work, everybody works, but nobody forces you to have a kid. You can't use money as your only excuse for how you parent your child. If the parents really have concrete reasons like you say, then why can't they be communicated? Because I said so won't work if a social worker is called. I can assure you they won't be amused. It doesn't work for the government either. If a law is passed or taxes or raised, we want to know why. We don't just accept it on good faith. I don't accept on good faith that every parent makes right decisions just because they are adults. Not every single decision has to be a bargaining excercise, but I'm mostly targeting what I see as extreme parenting, which seems to be quite common. I am not using absolutes or condoning paying for every last little want a child can have. Their needs are what matters, and what they need is to be listened to, respected, and to respect in turn.

As for the love part, don't assume the tough love theory will pan out. Love must be shown, not derived. What one parent might think is love for a child might be yelling at them and making them pay rent even before they turn 18, but this doesn't make it right. A parent is not a landlord, for one. I mean, Jesus, if the kid works already, why must he pay the parents unless they are poor? Just don't give out as much money for extras to him and pay for the essentials. If they have already turned 18, even then they may not be able to find a worthy job to support them, depending on where they live. Plus, depending on the course of study, a full time college student may not be capable of holding a full time job. I don't see working like three jobs 65 hours a week being an acceptable alternative. The Japanese have a syndrome where they work too hard and die from the stress. It's common over there. Here, overworked people tend to make mistakes, have problems with friends and family, or turn to drugs.

Next, a little bit about victims. They don't have a choice as to what happened to the, which is why they are called victims. Bad parenting doesn't give a choice. It can come down to, in some cases, follow my demanding rules or else welcome to life on the streets. That can be like a car veering into your lane and then deciding whether to hit it or a tree. Ultimately, it was never a choice for the driver. Children who come up against brick wall reasoning don't exactly have a choice. I could poke you with a stick and then laugh when you get mad, saying you don't have to get mad, choose your destiny. We can't always choose how we respond. It depends on the circumstance. You can't be empowered unless you have control. You can't have control if someone is dominating you. Then again, we're talking about unreasonable, stupid children here, remember? They don't have a voice. You can't expect responsible reactions to situations when they come from an environment where they have been viewed as irresponsible and irrelevant. Not all children are victims of their own parents. That is true, but they also get enough intolerance already from the rest of society.

Other than that, some good points. One last thing- I am not blaming parents for everything. I am acknowledging their share of responsibility. They have a great deal to answer to for choosing to bring a child into this world. Some parents do a fine enough job of raising their kids. Most could use a bit of fine tuning in their style, but again this is directed mostly at the more extreme views and not the moderate ones.

06-10-2004, 03:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
gondath Insane Location: Alton, IL	First off, Raenna and anyone else who feels the need to, stop with the personal attacks right now. Do not insult my choice of profession again. I don't appreciate callous remarks like that when you're basing all of your assumptions on one post on a freaking message board. I don't take kindly to run by slander. Lets get into the realm of tolerance for a moment. You assume all minors are mostly immature. I would suggest that most adults have no more maturity, but this is not an assumption I am willing to stand by one hundred percent. It is exactly that- an assumption based on preconceived notions. Ageism is just as wrong. Why must all underage people be viewed as unable to be reasoned with, immature, ungrateful, etc? Ask yourself what makes them this way if it turns out to be true. People do not develop in a void. Their parents are a big part of who they end up as when they become adults. Hmm, we don't live in a perfect world. Like I mentioned before, your families happen to be part of the world. If you don't like the world, then change your own actions. You can't blame some amorphous, uncaring society for issues that can be readily approached and solved. Why can't families communicate? I just cannot fathom why it is not possible for parents and children to come to an agreement. It's seems like a default stance for a lot of people to come down hard on minors and let parents get off scott free. It really shouldn't work either way, but the focus here is on parents because enough threads bash on the outh of today for how badly they have turned out compared to "the good ole days." Lets be honest- there was never some golden age of family love, and sure, problems can arise, but it's a willingess to sort things out and be firm only if there is no other option. As for abuse, there are more types of abuse than physical or mental. There is verbal abuse. Many parents insult and degrade their children. Seeing them as idiots who are unable to hold a conversation or make reasonable choices will not help them in any way. If anything, you create a chasm between you and your child which will not be overcome until you learn to respect one another. I can say I've met a lot of people who tried to kill themselves at one point or seriosuly considered suicide more than once. Often, they worked many hours and their parents laid down harsh rules and paid little or no attention to them otherwise. It's the home environment that goes with them when they leave the house and interact with the rest of the world. Like I said before, nobody cares what you pay for. I work, you work, everybody works, but nobody forces you to have a kid. You can't use money as your only excuse for how you parent your child. If the parents really have concrete reasons like you say, then why can't they be communicated? Because I said so won't work if a social worker is called. I can assure you they won't be amused. It doesn't work for the government either. If a law is passed or taxes or raised, we want to know why. We don't just accept it on good faith. I don't accept on good faith that every parent makes right decisions just because they are adults. Not every single decision has to be a bargaining excercise, but I'm mostly targeting what I see as extreme parenting, which seems to be quite common. I am not using absolutes or condoning paying for every last little want a child can have. Their needs are what matters, and what they need is to be listened to, respected, and to respect in turn. As for the love part, don't assume the tough love theory will pan out. Love must be shown, not derived. What one parent might think is love for a child might be yelling at them and making them pay rent even before they turn 18, but this doesn't make it right. A parent is not a landlord, for one. I mean, Jesus, if the kid works already, why must he pay the parents unless they are poor? Just don't give out as much money for extras to him and pay for the essentials. If they have already turned 18, even then they may not be able to find a worthy job to support them, depending on where they live. Plus, depending on the course of study, a full time college student may not be capable of holding a full time job. I don't see working like three jobs 65 hours a week being an acceptable alternative. The Japanese have a syndrome where they work too hard and die from the stress. It's common over there. Here, overworked people tend to make mistakes, have problems with friends and family, or turn to drugs. Next, a little bit about victims. They don't have a choice as to what happened to the, which is why they are called victims. Bad parenting doesn't give a choice. It can come down to, in some cases, follow my demanding rules or else welcome to life on the streets. That can be like a car veering into your lane and then deciding whether to hit it or a tree. Ultimately, it was never a choice for the driver. Children who come up against brick wall reasoning don't exactly have a choice. I could poke you with a stick and then laugh when you get mad, saying you don't have to get mad, choose your destiny. We can't always choose how we respond. It depends on the circumstance. You can't be empowered unless you have control. You can't have control if someone is dominating you. Then again, we're talking about unreasonable, stupid children here, remember? They don't have a voice. You can't expect responsible reactions to situations when they come from an environment where they have been viewed as irresponsible and irrelevant. Not all children are victims of their own parents. That is true, but they also get enough intolerance already from the rest of society. Other than that, some good points. One last thing- I am not blaming parents for everything. I am acknowledging their share of responsibility. They have a great deal to answer to for choosing to bring a child into this world. Some parents do a fine enough job of raising their kids. Most could use a bit of fine tuning in their style, but again this is directed mostly at the more extreme views and not the moderate ones.