lurkette

Many of you know that ratbastid and I had a polyamorous relationship with some good friends of ours - D&S - last year. I'm bisexual, and wanted to experiment, and she was game, so off we went but it wasn't just the two of us, it was all four of us. Until she decided that she didn't want to sleep with ratbastid any more. And then commenced long negotiations between me and ratbastid about whether I could continue to have any kind of sexual relationship with her, since things now didn't include him in that way.

While all this is going on, D and I are still very good friends. In fact, all four of us are very good friends. Hell, we're moving 3 blocks from them on Tuesday. But D and I in particular are in this kind of limbo state where we're not sure what we are to each other. I really want a girlfriend, but she's content just to drool over me and flirt and maybe occasionally make out. I love her to death, but she aggravates me so, sometimes. Recently I've been really frustrated with her. She's constantly busy and it seems like every conversation we have revolves around her and her very busy very important life and crises. I've stopped even trying to be heard. I start to feel unloved and unimportant if she doesn't dance with me, doesn't call me as often as I think she should, doesn't make an effort to spend time with me.

I'm testing her love for me, certain she doesn't really love me and couldn't ever love me because I'm inherently unlovable. I feel like a total fuck-up with a dull, uninteresting life and why the hell would she love me? So everything looks to me like I'm not important. I'm pretty clear this is my perception, not reality. However, she feels like why should she even bother, since nothing she ever does is going to be good enough to convince me that she loves me. After a couple of tense weeks in which I was furiously mad with her and even madder with myself for being mad at her, we made up, (on Tuesday) and things have been back to the way they were before I went insane and started making her try to prove she loves me.

So last night she and S came over to help us pack, and then we went out dancing. We got along great and were flirting with each other and being all huggy and nuzzly, but when we got to the dance, this woman who's been flirting with both of us started hitting on her, and she told me about it, in a way that indicated she wasn't going to say no, exactly. And I got flip-out jealous. I have no "claim" to her, but it just drives me insane that she tells me how much she loves me and values me, but she doesn't need to have sex with me; but then she gets all juicy over this woman she doesn't even know. A huge part of the problem is that I could share someone I felt secure with (witness ratbastid, whom I can share with minimal mental/emotional acrobatics) but with D, I have no idea where I stand. What are we to each other? Anyhow, because she feels like nothing she does will ever be good enough to convince me she loves me, she feels like she has no freedom to even look at what we are to each other. Incidentally, this "you couldn't possibly love me" crap is exactly the same stuff I pulled on ratbastid in our relationship, and it didn't stop until things between us got to the brink of divorce. I don't want to lose her, but I'm having a really hard time articulating what I need from this relationship, and telling the difference between what I need and why my frightened "I'm unlovable" ego needs to satisfy it.

God, I'd love some advice. Ratbastid's advice is probably the best I've had: "lighten up!" but I feel absolutely sick about the whole thing. I wonder sometimes why I am trying so hard to make things work with D, whether it's really worth it. I don't know if I'm really in love with her or if I just hate myself so much I don't think any other woman would ever want me. (The fact that this woman at the dance hit on her and not me is just, perversely, evidence to fuel my self-loathing.)

Oh, please help.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

maleficent

First off - {{{{{HUG}}}}}}

Now... until you beleive yourself to be loveable, you aren't going to be sure that others really do love you as well, and will need that constant testing of their love. If only you could see yourself the way that the folks in the land of TFP see you... You are an amazing woman... you are intelligent, beautiful, kind, sexy as hell, great sense of humor, you are what most people would aspire to be. (And I know you didn't start t his thread to have your ego stroked either)

If you aren't sure if you are in love with her, then you probably arent. Real love I don't think you question to much. You are probably in love with the idea of her, and she's what is in front of you right now. There a re plenty of women out there thata would love to be in D's shoes.. and would treat you the way you need, want and deserve to be treated.

I'd probably guess that it's this other woman hitting on D and not you is what the problem is...This other woman clearly has no taste so there is no reason to be jealous at all...

You need to remind yourself daily of your awesomeness...Whatever it takes to do that...a fishbowl in the bathrooom filled with pieces of paper of all your good qualities that you read once a day, a daily email you send yourself about how amazing you are, your self worth comes from within you, not what other people think about you... once you love yourself, you will see how many other people love you too...

I'm babbling now.. I'll stop for a while...

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ShaniFaye

A relationship where you feel like you're having to do all the work while the other person keeps going on their merry ole way isnt what you need IMO.

Relationships are a two way street, I know you know that, but I dont know if you realize that you are worth more than trying to convince someone to be with you, when the way you are naturally should be all the RIGHT person needs...and there should be no need for "proving" anything. You know good and well that the person that is right for you will see everything about you and love you for it and will do it in such a way that you dont have these kinds of questions....thats how you know its the RIGHT person.

Obviously I dont know anything about D, other than what you've posted from time to time, but it sounds to me like she's all about her....and while we all have those kind of days where it is like that...it shouldnt be a constant. You are far too good a person to be chasing after somone that seems to be giving less that her responsible share to a relationship. You need to remind D that you and Rat have an open relationship, that you want someone to care about and receive that in return...you are not a swinger.

Some people dont understand that Swinging and Open Marriage are two different things. You are SO worth more than this woman is giving you.....should I come up and tie her up and torture her in the way that only I can?

I've told Rat many many times I'd like to get to know you better...ie in person not "online" because Dave and I love him so much and he's so much fun when he's down here in Atlanta, that you must be too. Of course Im too opinionated for you to love me....my point in saying this is....you had D, and I think she's more of an infatuation that "love" and she's not giving you what you need and you need to find the person that can.

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Seeker

Having been on both sides of this coin, I want to mention that this alone causes 'pressure'. When there is too much pressure, it makes one want to run. Not necessarily away, but at least a few steps back.

Shani-Faye and Mal are right... you need to find your self worth. Clinging to someone else to keep your worth is a really heavy responsibility that not many people want to carry.

Perhaps if you could take a step back yourself and focus on you, things might turn around.. you may find that D takes more of an interest in coming to you. I'm not sure, but this is where ratbastid is saying "lighten up"?

Just on a side note:
I didn't think it was possible to meet someone who doubts themselves as much as I do... I think in many ways you have it all over me on that one. I don't even know you well, and I can't see anything about you that is unloveable... you are just as maleficient described! Find it and believe it!

(and yes, I know... easier said than done right? )

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~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Zegel

Me thinks that polyamorous relationships take a certain maturity level (from everyone involved) to really work. Some enter them looking for serious relationships, and some enter them for the fun-factor. Those not mature enough to handle the dynamics of a more complex relationship are usually just looking for a good time. Unfortunately, from what you've written, it sounds like the two of you are on opposite ends of the scale here. No advise on how to fix that, sorry =/. Sometimes people are just who they are, attempting to change them could drive you insane.

martinguerre

a few thoughts, in no particular order and with little guarantee of usefulness.

when was the last time she did something really nice for you? or showed you all the attention you needed?

"I've stopped even trying to be heard." I suspect this bothers you a lot. And it should. I think it may be entirely fair that you tell D that this has been the case.

knowing that we are already loved seems to me to be the prerequisite of relationship. when we aren't certain of this, we do all sorts of strange things to make ourselves lovable. we shut up, we won't shut up, we make up identies, we snipe away at the competition (real or imagined) and we do all manner of violences to ourselves and the people around us... insecurity isn't just a personal failing, or some sort of character flaw. it's the breakdown of that which makes love and relationship possible...and it's the universal human malady.

for me, i find refuge from this in what i believe to be the foundational love of the world, the love of God for all creation. but whether it's family, old friends, whatever...it's finding myself grounded in love that makes anything else possible. i know a lot of good folks care a whole lot about you...so i hope you let their care sink in and feel very real to you. and best of luck with this all..

peace,

-mg

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KingOtter67

I can't say I have any experience in polyamory, and the dynamics of multiple relationships. Not that I'm not open to them... but I doubt my wife would be.

I really like maleficient's answer 'you're in love with the idea of her'. Or at least what your ideal relationship with her would be. Unfortunately, she's not comforming to that ideal and seems to be struggling against it, to a certain extent.

You want it to be on one level, where she's perfectly happy to have it on a much more superficial level, and it is causing you strife.

I don't like telling people what to do. I don't like 'You should do xxx' advice. I usually just try to reflect the situation, perhaps in different words with an outsider's point of view in hopes it will give some light on the situation.

But just because one person chooses not to love you the same way you love them has nothing to do with your lovability. As a metaphor let's look at mashed potatoes. Some people hate mashed potatoes. Can't stand them. But I love them... so mashed potatoes are extremely lovable by my standards, but not others. Especially when I can slather them in butter and sour cream and savor each bite.

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KingOtter
You can't push on a rope.

skysooner

I have been on this board for several years, and I find your relationship with Ratbastid to be a model for many to follow. I'm not speaking about the polyamory but in how you two are so simpatico with each other. You and Ratbastid appear to have gone through what many other couples go through to reach a great relationship. You took it to the brink and realized what is really important. Great relationships aren't something you learn about in school. They take time to develop their communication patterns that make them successful in the long-term.

It is perfectly natural to feel insecure in a new relationship. You have one real advantage here to your previous problem with Rat though. You have a person in your corner now that loves you completely and should make you feel loveable. It is so easy to project our insecurities on others and see things that aren't there. Most people are so wrapped up in themselves that they can't really see what is going on with others.

The solution to your problem is to just talk it out with her. Don't do it angrily or when you are too emotional about it. Tell her how you feel. It will either work or it won't. You owe it to yourself not to put yourself through this mental torture. After all you already have what many do not and that is a spouse that totally loves you for you.

raeanna74

AMEN!

In hubby's and my relationship we have not developed close relationships such as you have with another couple. We have become good friends with one couple though. Recently the woman in that particular couple has struck out on her own in a hunt for other men. This is apparently with her husbands blessing. We had them both over recently and saw a tension between them that concerned us. How to approach it, we're not sure. I did find that her other 'interests' seemed like she was less interested in me. I can choose to think that I'm not good enough or I can choose to think that she needs constant validation which I am not giving her. This could be the case for your girl. Perhaps she TOLD you about the other girl hitting on you to see if you would get jealous. Jealousy to some people equates 'love'. I don't want to put her down but if you can see things from her point of view you might see that it has nothing to do with you but everything to do with her ego needing extra attention. You can choose to ignore things or you can choose to try to preen that ego and see how she responds. Just remember that if this is the situation for her that she will constantly need this particular kind of attention to feel content where she is with you in the relationship. Are you able and willing to work at the continual maintanance necessary then?

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JustJess

lurkette, my dear woman - you're not crazy. It sounds like she doesn't love you (at least enough) to me as well. The part that is hard to learn is that the reason she's not in love with you has nothing to do with you - it's all her. It's something I learned auditioning, actually - I am enough in myself, but sometimes, I'm not what the auditioner is looking for, and that's okay. I'm still wonderful, but the pieces just didn't fit.
That's where I try to find that "inner peace"... believe me, I'm not always successful. I have LOTS of self-doubt/self-image questions and problems... but this is what I try to focus on. Tell yourself this daily, even when you don't believe it:
I AM ENOUGH.

I think D looked like your puzzle piece, but perhaps you don't fit, and it's okay. You're still enough, and more than enough.

The goal is always to have that confidence in yourself for yourself, but until you get there, listen to Ratbastid. He loves you for very good reasons - because you're you. So take that into yourself until you know those reasons even when he's not there. And please, be patient with yourself - you don't have to fix this today. Changing entire patterns of thought and behavior is scary and hard as hell.

You're going to be okay. You don't need her, you need you.

Hugs and smooches to you - I hope your days get better.

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

zen_tom

Honestly, I really don't understand Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just can't get my head around this idea. Would you mind clearing some things up for me?
Isn't ratbastid upset that you're in love with someone else?
Why do you need validation of your lovability from more than one person at a time? Don't get me wrong, you are probably very lovable, but isn't it a kind of a slur on ratbastid to say that you need *more* love than he can give you? Either he is very mature and super-stable in himself, or he is tearing up inside. How would you feel if the roles were reversed?

I can't even begin to imagine what this must be like - it hurts my head, and my heart. I know that might make me sound like some old school traditionalist conservative, but I know that it's hard enough being in love with just one person. Purposely trying to maintain more than one loving relationship just seems fraught with problems. I wish I could offer some advice, but I just can't.

You've put me off the idea of multiple relationships even more than I was before - it sounds dreadfull! Good luck, and I hope it turns out OK

Edit: I think I may have got the wrong idea here - are you still in a loving relationship ratbastid or not? And if not, is your friend still in her relationship with her guy/girl? If it's just a straight one-on-one relationship, then it sounds as though you are investing more emotion into the relationship that your friend is. Which is one of the oldest stories in the book, we've all been there. It feels horrible, and the pain seems as though it will last forever, but it wont. I really hope you work it out

abaya

Oh, Lurkette... I'm not in your situation exactly, but I can very much identify with your insecurities and doubts. Jess is talking to me as much as she is to you, here... and we are all in the same boat.

From the limited amount I know, I'd say you aren't very compatible with this woman... and that's okay, like Jess said. It's no fault of yours. But I do think you should remember how things went with Ratbastid, and go back to the security you have found in yourself via him (I'm still getting there with ktspktsp), and stand firmly until another potential girlfriend comes along.

Remember that you're sort of "dating" all over again, looking for love, and there's a really good chance it'll take some searching, some wrong matches, before you find a good fit. Especially if you are looking for a significant relationship, not just a fling. Give it time and be patient with yourself.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Acetylene

This might be seen as a little cruel, but with a husband like Ratbastid, why the heck are you wasting your energy on ANYONE else?

Marriage takes ALL your love and time and there should be no one else to compete for your affection. Your marriage needs to come before even your children! I understand that you don't want to not ever be with a woman, but this kind of LOVE that you are talking about, quite frankly, belongs to your husband.

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ShaniFaye

I really dont think its right to question why they have the kind of relationship they have..no its not for everybody, but those of us that have the same kind of relationship understand exactly what she means.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

amonkie

By adding someone to the marriage, it can take the original two to new levels with an additional person. It does not become a Love one person less because you now love someone else. In fact, sometimes it makes the marriage stronger because each partner has to consciously choose to grow in maturity for it to work. It is certainly not for everyone. I applaud Lurkette and Ratbastid that they feel secure enough in their relationship and trust that they can explore these new areas together.

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Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

Sage

I'm a firm believer in "when you meet the right person, you just KNOW" You've been saying that you want a girlfriend for a long time, right? Well, you want to find the RIGHT one, don't you? This chick doesn't sound like the right one- she's not treating you the way you would like to, she's causing you distress and apparently doesn't care, and she isn't giving you what you need and want. Just because she isn't fitting into the puzzle of your life doesn't mean that no one ever will. Martel and I would one day like to add another woman to our marriage, but we're letting it take its own course and not pushing it. Sometimes, when you want something really badly, desire takes over and makes you forget WHY you want that thing in the first place. Desire is the root of all suffering, doubly so in relationships. Take a month off from wanting a girlfriend- focus that energy on Ratbastid and yourself instead. Go get a pedicure, facial, or a massage. Read a book, go for walks in the evening, take up yoga. Volunteer somewhere. Do something different with yourself, and grow from it. Then, in a month (or when you feel ready) come back to the girlfriend thing. How has the past month changed you? Do you feel better about yourself, and your situation? Work towards bettering yourself, getting over self-doubt, and solidifying your own self-love. When you exude love, live in love, and show the world that you love yourself and wake up each day with confidence, others will see that change and be drawn to you. And, one day, a wonderful woman who feels the same way about herself will be drawn to you, and will give you the love you need. I think that when people start relationships out of needs that they want the other person to fufill, the relationship is strained from the start. Everything you need is within you, the secret being tapping into it.

And all y'all who are offering up your opnions of her situation- she asked for advice, not opnions. If you'd like to discuss open relationships, post in the discussion forum.

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ngdawg

In viewing the friendship as a whole, who is the giver and who is the taker?
I tend to draw takers and after a while it gets old, but when they turn their attention elsewhere, I feel hurt, even knowing what they are in reality.
I do have to kind of disagree with the notion that loving more than one person wholly does not detract from loving another.One or both relationships get shortchanged and people are too different frome one another to be loved equally. Been there, done that, didn't get the tshirt.
Instead of feeling unloved because one person couldn't see your wonderful soul, turn to the one who loves you more than any other....and realize how worth it you really are to be loved exclusively and wholly.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

*Nikki*

I really like what Sage said here and I don't think that better advice can be offered.

All I can tell you is that you need to see in you what we see in you. A wonderful, awesome, gorgeous person.

Sweetpea

You are beautiful (drop dead grogeous beautiful!),. kind, intelligent and lovely and you have a solid open marriage with RB . . . you would be a catch for ANY woman and 'D' is lucky beyond words to have you in her life, if she doesn't see that, then i'm not so sure about her...

Is it that you really are in love with 'D' and want to make it work with her or that you feel you need the validation from her? It seems like you two might want different things from the relationship . . . i.e. you would still like to be enjoying love-making with her, while she is content to just flirt with you and is also looking at other women... that would indicate to me that you are at two different places in what your expectations are.

Your feeling jealous isn't so much about jealousy, but about feeling insecure and that is very normal . . . i wouldn't be hard on yourself for that.

but i think the bottom line is:

you're a fantastic woman and life is too short to settle for a girlfriend who isn't going to be everything you deserve...

and here's a big (((((((((((((hug)))))))))) relationships aren't always easy... just be true to yourself and YOUR needs.

Sweetpea

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Sweetpea

Acetylene,

Lurkette already identified that she and RB have a polyamorous marriage. some couples make this kind of relationship work very well for them, especially if one spouse is bisexual. just because she has 'D' doesn't mean it takes away from her marriage, that is an assumption you are making.

Sweetpea

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anti fishstick

First, accept this as one of the challenges of an open relationship. Everything does get a little more complicated and I admire you for your courage to work through it.

Now, I think that you are searching at all the wrong places for love. Wether you're in an open relationship or not, you have to learn to appreciate, accept and love yourself first. Draw yourself inward and look towards Ratbastid for support and most importantly, yourself. I don't think this woman loves you, but I also don't think you love her either. You are just looking for affection and ways to satisfy the attention you need to fulfill something missing within yourself. So take the time to explore what it is you need and let yourself try to answer those things, instead of other people. It's very possible that a woman is out there for you, but it will take time.

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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

Cynthetiq

Whooop there it is....

you will always feel this way until you resolve and accept you first.

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Redlemon

I think there's a dynamic that you are missing here:

D desires you sexually.
D doesn't desire Ratbastid.
Ratbastid and Lurkette are a package deal.

Remember while you were still courting D and S? And she kept switching back and forth as to if she wanted to get involved? See above. She didn't want to hurt you guys, but eventually she gave in, because she really wanted you.

Now, you are still coming on to her, but she can't have you unless she also takes Ratbastid. It's a hard thing to balance.

I think you need to drop her as a potential lover if you want to keep her as a friend.

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BonesCPA

The only thing I seem to miss from everyone's comments is the concept of committment. You and Ratbastid are committed to each other. You have a respect for each other that goes beyond a normal relationship. In my mind this takes your love to another level. That is why you didn't end the relationship with things were bad, you know what you have is significant and important.

You and D are at a different place. The love that the two of you have is on different level, not just compared to you and Rabastid, but also comparing you and D. Your relationship with D&S has changed from where it was, as do most relationships. The question is: Has it changed to the point where it is no longer what you want? And if so, what do you do?

I could suggest what you do, but my opinion will have about as much relevance as a coin flip - I'm not you, and I'm not in your situation. All I can suggest is that you look at your relationship with D&S. If you are getting what you need out of the relationship then stay with it. If you think you may be able to get what you need out of it, put some work into it. If you think all you efforts will ultimately end in heartbreak and bad feelings - do what you think is right.

Good luck.

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Back into hibernation.

JustJess

Just wanted to revive the thread, and see how Lurkette is doing!!!!
{{{{{{HUG}}}}}}

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

lurkette

Hey folks - sorry I never checked back in. Thank you, all of you, for your support and advice. It made me feel so very good to have so many people pulling for me. I love this place

So D basically decided she didn't want to be with the other woman if it hurt me, and would be horribly jealous if I ever wanted to be with another woman. We basically talked and made up, and decided that our friendship is the most important thing. But I also had to deal with my constant drive to make other people prove they love me. It makes her feel (and made ratbastid feel, when I used to do this to him) like nothing they do will ever be enough to prove to me that they love me, so why the fuck bother? Anyhow, things are all good, and I can honestly think about her being with someone else without getting violently ill. I found that it worked to think about why I wanted to start being non-monogamous in the first place, which was to expand my capacity for love - love that wasn't jealous or trying to prove anything or trying to make up for some perceived lack in myself.

Since all this happened, ratbastid has decided that he can be okay with the two of us (me and D) being together, and we've had the opportunity to make out a couple of times. We're not making it exclusive, and I'm not making that mean that she doesn't love me enough. Frankly, I kind of look forward to making her jealous with some other woman /evil And the whole thing makes me incredibly horny, so ratbastid is reaping the benefits

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