constant

Would you rather be considered as equals to men in everything and lose the "sex object" tag that most men place on you or would you rather keep your female sexuality and the immense power that comes with it?

I think all men look at attractive women as sex objects, but it isn't our fault. I sometimes get very annoyed that women complain about this and yet at the same time they utlilize this aspect of human nature to get money/gifts, etc.. I'm sorry but women just seem so "career-minded" and self-centered yet so dependent on their sexuality, their constant belittling of men and complaining about being seen as sex objects makes no sense to me. I sometimes feel great animosity towards the female gender when I "shouldn't", like when I see female empowerment, I belittle it without really thinking because I am so disgusted with the female gender and how "weak" it is in any other aspect besides sexuality. I know this isn't "right", but it is just my natural response, maybe I have been conditioned by society to think this way, but it is how I think.

Perhaps it is just human nature for females to exploit this unfortunate product of evolution, but I feel that it is much, much, much, much more voluntary than the way men "think" about sex. Sexuality really isn't needed THAT much anymore, and I feel it impedes the human race's progress.

I just wish, even as unconcievable as it may be and as joyful as sexuality can be, that it didn't exist.

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juanvaldes

ummm.....they are equals.

constant

I'm sorry, but men and women aren't equal and never will be. They are equal in the eyes of the law, as they should be (except in sexual assault or custody cases, which makes sense), but that is basically it. I'm sorry I "revealed" that to you. There are MANY differences between men and women, too many to go into and they seem too controversial right now if all of you "believe" men and women are equal.

The question was about sexuality, which men and women are not equal players in. I don't even think this is considered politcally incorrect, it is so obvious that women "dominate" the courting/mating process that it isn't even an obstacle to this "equality" that people obsess about today.

1984 was a great book.

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zodiac3k

hehe

yea

i bet they are but society prevents it p

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zodiac3k

constant

Uh.. in what way are they equals?

Men are much physically stronger than women.
Men are much more driven by sex than women, and women have always been more sexually powerful unless they were completely oppressed.
Men have always ruled the world, and continue to.
Women make better mothers and are more emotionally receptive (this is not a "stereotype" but proven fact).
Women and men's brains are wired differently, men are better at spatial and numerical calculation and focusing while women are much better at multitasking and language. There is also a signifcant average difference in brain weight and the nerve connection complexity between hemispheres between genders.

I understand men and women are equal in the eyes of the law except in some special cases, as they SHOULD be, but how are they equal in any other way?

Damn our "social engineers" have done a really good job convincing everyone of this "equality" and convincing people to be PC. I figure a person who has read and apparently enjoyed the book 1984 would be a bit more warry about the things our society are told to believe in.

I'm not a racist or a sexist, I just believe in the truth, and the truth is there are significant differences between men and women, extremely significant ones, just take off your pants and look at your lap.

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collide

Talk about baiting. Your general attitude reminds me of a good article from The Nation. Makes for good reading.

Besides, who says women can't be both powerful and sexy?

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angela146

Let me see if I understand this... You are saying that women have more sexual power and men have more of everything else?

No...

On the sexual side, men can have a lot more sexual power in relationships if they learn certain emotional skills. See my post in another thread http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread....095#post547095 BTW: read the whole thread.

On the other side of things, constant, physical strength is becoming less and less important as time goes on. Most power today derives from money and making money is most easily achieved by using a combination of education, intelligence and chutzpah.

Academically, the current generation of girls/women (below the age of about 24) outclass boys/men across the board. Ask any college recruiter and they will tell you that it is a real problem finding qualified male applicants to try to keep a gender balance.

Why? Because for the past thirty years, women have been working hard to try to overcome the physical and social barriers that have prevented girls from achieving. It used to be said that girls were weaker in mathmatics and engineering. Not true anymore. The current generation of women (i.e. the ones your age) are filling engineering classrooms because... their mothers and teachers told them that it was OK for them to do it.

Those differences in brain structure you talk about are not necessarily an impediment *and* some of them are actually the *result* of learning skills.

Today, an intelligent girl has a leg up over her male classmates. There are women and girls (and even men) who will go out of their way to make it possible for her to get ahead in life, not by preventing male achievement but by assisting female achievement.

If men don't get off their behinds and do something soon, we will be facing a reverse gender power problem in another twenty years. What you guys need to do is to get boys to stop focusing on athletics and somehow make it "cool" for them to achieve academically.

Don't believe me? As I suggested above, try talking to a few college recruiters.

Now in my next post, I will actually answer your question...

constant

I'm not trying to discuss the differences between male and female brains and things like that. It was in response to people derailing the thread and challenging my assumption that women and men are not equal.

My original post is just how I feel. I realize it is not right or acceptable to many women.

I never said physical strength mattered, I just used it as proof or an example that men and women are clearly not equal. I also said that evolution has not caught up with society. I wish everyone WAS equal, that would make the world a better place.

I also find it ironic that you feel attacked by my assumptions about women, understandably so, but then you make assumptions asserting female superiority. This thread isn't about any superiority except female dominance in the sexual world.

Women ARE much better students than men when they are under the age of 24, I agree, I never challenged the intelligence of women. But, if you believe that being male is an ADVANTAGE when applying for college, you are wrong, especially when applying as an engineering or math/science major.

I am not saying women are less intelligent or mentally inferior. I am just saying they are DIFFERENT and therefore, unequal. Men are better at somethings than women, women are better at somethings than men, I don't get how you women argue that men and women are equal yet concede the fact that women are better mothers, more emotionally receptive, and that men are stronger and call men stupid sex-obsessed pigs.

If you want to see the difference between me and women, make a list of ten things to do and get 2-3 guy friends and 2-3 female friends. See how long it takes each of them to do the things. Women should come out on top.

Then ask 2-3 guy friends and 2-3 girlfriends who don't drive the model car you drive, and ask them to parallel park it in a small space, and see how long each one takes. Men should come out on top.

Are any of you actually challenging this or are you just "notifying" me of the recent female "accomplishments" in the last 30 years, which I am already well aware of?

I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I have actually seen these tests being performed and the data that comes out of it. Ther ARE scientists who agree with this view, but generally most don't like to talk about it because society punishes political incorectness. People have lost their jobs saying things like I have said, it is ridiculous.

Oppression has been a part of the reason why women have different roles, but it is also biological. Remember, society is a product of human beings and biology.

It is GREAT, friggin GREAT that women over the last thirty years are making strides in male-dominated fields. If you noticed the tone of my original post and what I was talking about, you would have understood my "HATRED" towards women was a result of their sexuality and the fact that many of them don't have anything to offer as an intellectual because they have been using their looks to get everything in life. I LIKE women who are intelligent, I am not against TRUE female empowerment. I am against politcal correctness and the idea of equality, though.

I never questioned the UNequality of males and females, someone else did.

I bet you if I made a post about 10 reasons why men are stupid pigs, no one would object.

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Double D

I hesitated to respond to this because it seems futile to debate with you about how you *feel.*

Feelings are often not rationally based, therefore a rational discussion seems unlikely.

Women are naturally superior to men. The book I enjoyed most that outlined this point by point, is *The Natural Superiority of Women,* by Ashley Montague (a man).

It's seems you harbor a strong dislike of women in general, which I find quite disconcerting.
I sincerely suggest that you seek professional assistance in coping with these issues.

constant

Quoting one book or quoting one obviously liberal article about something is far from proof or evidence, let alone empircal evidence.

Since you have openly stated that you believe men are the inferior gender, I will state my opinions truthfully.

Yes, I believe women are inferior to men in terms of cognitive ability. That isn't what this post is about, this shouldn't have spiraled out of control just because of the "tone" of my posts or my attitude.

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angela146

On an individual person by person basis, the tradeoff is not necessary. I have no problem being seen as a sex object *and* intimidating men on a professional level.

Quote:

I think all men look at attractive women as sex objects, but it isn't our fault.

Ummm... here's a little secret... we think of you as sex objects too. We just don't talk about it (at least around men).

If you are at all physically attractive, I guarantee you that there are girls who have thought about having sex with you. Yes, I would bet hard currency that sometime in the next month, some girl/woman is going to close her eyes, put her hand between her legs, and finger herself while imagining that you are in bed with her. There is an orgasm with your name on it out there somewhere.

Quote:

I sometimes get very annoyed that women complain about this and yet at the same time they utlilize this aspect of human nature to get money/gifts, etc..

Don’t waste your time on women who complain about being thought of as sex objects… if you like thinking of women as sex objects. Keep your eye out for the ones that are checking out your butt.

Quote:

I'm sorry but women just seem so "career-minded" and self-centered yet so dependent on their sexuality,

Some of them are, but some of us are very career-minded, ruthless business people who “enjoy” our sexuality.

Quote:

their constant belittling of men and complaining about being seen as sex objects makes no sense to me.

It makes sense to me because I know that being a sex object can be a pain in the ass sometimes… but I don’t let it bother me and I don’t complain about it. If a man wants to think of me as a sex object and undress me in his mind, he is perfectly welcome to do so.

Quote:

I sometimes feel great animosity towards the female gender when I "shouldn't", like when I see female empowerment, I belittle it without really thinking because I am so disgusted with the female gender and how "weak" it is in any other aspect besides sexuality. I know this isn't "right", but it is just my natural response, maybe I have been conditioned by society to think this way, but it is how I think.

Good for you! The first step in dealing with a problem is understanding and accepting it. Now, if you want to change your attitude, and I think you do, try making friends with some strong women. Some of them are outgoing and friendly and others are quiet but really, really smart. Notice that I said “make *friends*” with them, not “try to get them in bed”. While you are doing so, don’t try to hide the fact that you like looking at their tits. You’re a guy. You like tits. The ones who get offended aren’t the ones you are looking for. The ones who can deal with it can really teach you something. BTW: try making friends with a girl who is intelligent but terribly flirtatious. Again, make friends with her but don’t give in to her sexual teasing. You might find that something interesting happens.

Quote:

Perhaps it is just human nature for females to exploit this unfortunate product of evolution, but I feel that it is much, much, much, much more voluntary than the way men "think" about sex.

Women thing about sex too, we just don’t talk about it as much. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with men using certain kinds of sexual power to their advantage. See this link: http://tfproject.org/tfp/showthread....095#post547095 …

Quote:

Sexuality really isn't needed THAT much anymore, and I feel it impedes the human race's progress.

Hogwash! Sex is fun!

Quote:

I just wish, even as unconcievable as it may be and as joyful as sexuality can be, that it didn't exist.

I feel very, sorry for you if that is really the case.

There are 3 billion+ women in this world. Some of them live in your area and are roughly your age. Out of those, some of them aren’t hung up on being thought of being seen as sex objects. There may not be all that many but you’re only one guy. You don’t need that many.

So, would I rather be considered as an equal to men in everything and lose the "sex object" tag that most men place on me? Hell no! I make more money than most men. I spend a lot of my time telling them how to run their IT projects. No man is my boss and no man has been my boss since I graduated from college (I’m self employed). Why would I want to be considered an equal to men? It’s more fun intimidating them.

Sexual equality: I don’t want that either. There’s one guy who I’ll willing lie on my back for any time he wants it and there are a few others who might get me there if they play their cards right, but that pales in comparison to the number who would fall on their knees for a chance to get a kiss from me.

Oh, and I like being a sex object. I like knowing that there are a lot of TFP folks drooling over my avatar and wanking off to my journal. It’s very rewarding.

constant

I guess I just hate women.

I'm sorry, but I don't really want to change, and I feel that I just cause in a philisophical sense to hate women. I also believe that women are fundamentally different from men and, honestly, inferior in many important aspects.

I "love" women too, although that love is probably lust and other messed up emotions all mixed together.

My hatred for women is much more a philosophy than something I actively practice. I don't really go out and talk like this to women. I do respect many of them and I like many of them and I do, very strongly, want to get married someday and have children and yes, I would prefer sons.

Anyways, getting back on topic, this thread is out of control. It should be deleted before it turns into a sexist flamewar. Can someone delete this please? I'm not sure anymore that these forums are for me. Everywhere I have gone, I have been controversial and disliked when saying what I believe to be true, I guess I'll just have to keep it to myself.

Just to let you girls know, I probably "hate" the majority of people. Which is strange, because I love humanity. Oh well.

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redravin40

It seemed the best place to start was with your original question since the following posts get a tad bit convoluted.

I'm not a woman so you can take my answer how you like but you have essentially blown off their answers so let me try.

The immense power you speak of is strictly an illusion based on a society that is hopelessly schizophrenic as to how it values woman.

We supposedly value motherhood and yet we accuse woman who stay home with their children as being nonproductive (read welfare reform).

Woman are the primary targets of rape, domestic violence, being used as prostitutes, slave labor, and the target of physical and emotional abuse. (Don't even get into how it happens to men too, the percentages are negligible in comparison).

Rather then deal with these problems, woman are blamed for them.

That hardly seems like power to me.

The differences you point out between men and woman are largely artificial.

My mother was a volunteer fire fighter who could hold a hose and swing an ax with the best of men.

She didn't give up her sexuality to be able to accomplish that, just had the determination it took to accomplish the given task.

I also know men who work with blind and deaf children who are as loving, caring, and sensitive to the children's needs.

These are men who play football and scratch when they itch.

These are not random samplings but consistent with all the people I have met.

In the long run equality will only be accomplished when people stop trying to make woman out to be sexual controlling and objects.

We will be a better society when everybody is viewed as an individual with strengths and weaknesses that have nothing to do with gender, race, religion, or sexual preference.

constant

We will be a better society when we recognize the truth.

Just because your mother was a great firewoman does not mean that women should try to be firefighters. On average, they make WORSE firefighters, sorry, it is a very physically intensive job.

Men can be very emotional--I am very emotional. This doesn't mean that because one man is more emotional than one woman that all my statements are "artificial".

None of my statements are all-inclusive, they are just about the majority of people.

I think that society has made women out to be sexually controlling and objects because many of them act that way.

I think sex is power. A stripper makes much more than a researcher who has a PhD. An attractive woman could become a millionare either by marriage or in some cases by modeling or acting.

Race and gender do have a lot to do with who you are. I recognize the importance of viewing people as individuals, but that doesn't mean the concept of race or gender should be abolished.

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life makes me cry

Double D

The Natural Superiority Of Women (5th Edition)
By Ashley Montagu
Published by Altamira Press, January 1999

Modern civilization has traveled far in knowledge and advanced technologies, yet from other perspectives — in morals, in education, in equality, in peace — we have a long long way to go. Not long ago, in Kosovo, the world saw how false ideas can generate destructive actions, how an ideology of hatred leads to genocide. More recently we have been shocked to hear that a pro-Nazi sympathizer has secured a foothold in the government of Austria; and a professional baseball player in Atlanta has unashamedly announced, in effect, that minorities are an inferior species.

Always, after news like this, the commentators pop out of their holes like groundhogs, glare at the shadows, then tell us what we already know. Bigotry, intolerance, and racism are evil and horrible and base. Much rarer are the thinkers who write about the root of these events, and explain what we must do to understand the causes and conditions which poison our culture with prejudice and hate.

The most influential of these foresighted thinkers was Ashley Montagu, who died on November 26, 1999 at the age of 94. One of the key forces behind the United Nations UNESCO statement on race, Montagu was the author of more than sixty books. His works and lectures, which explore a wide variety of subjects, focus primarily on these four topics: anthropology; the fallacies of racism and sexism; the nature of human nature as loving and cooperative instead of selfish and aggressive; and the renewal of culture through education. Montagu's last book, The Natural Superiority of Women (originally published in 1952, then four times updated by Dr. Montagu) has been expanded and modernized to fortify his highly-controversial theme: women are superior to men.

The book argues that the female of the species is biologically, sexually, emotionally, and even intellectually superior to the male. Montagu explains that this thesis is supported by scientific evidence. Like Socrates, he challenges his readers to distinguish between facts and opinions. He reminds us that facts are either true of false, and he welcomes all evidence that questions any of his facts and the conclusions deduced from these. Since 1952 when Montagu first made his claims in an article for the Saturday Review, the book has angered many feminists and been applauded by many others.

A woman, Montagu claims, should not attempt to blindly imitate the type-A, money-crazed, commercial-driven lifestyle of the typical executive male. The most fulfilling life for the mother can be realized only if she spends the first years caring for the new baby, and only later joins (or rejoins) the workforce. Montagu's great goal is not to promote a society dominated by women, but a to bring about a world of equality where the beautiful characteristics of women rule: a world of cooperation, sensitivity, and human kindness.

This 1999 Fifth Edition contains significant new material compared to the previous 1992 release, and includes Montagu's new preface, an insightful introduction by Susan Sperling which explains Montagu's ideas in the context of current feminist theory, and the text of the important 1967 United Nations resolution titled "Declaration of the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women."

One key, to Montagu's philosophy is his theory about the essence of education. He writes:

"These difficulties are all problems in human relations and until they are solved, human beings will in large numbers continue to behave unintelligently and ineffectually. What, then, is the solution? It lies in a revaluation of our values; in a complete revaluation and reorganization of what today passes for education, but represents nothing more than instruction, a very different thing.Instruction is really just training in techniques and skills, the three Rs. Such training is, of course, indispensably necessary, but it is only a limited part of what should be understood by education. The very word is derived from the Latin educare, meaning to nourish and to cause to grow. And what is it that one should nourish and cause to grow? It has taken us late into the twentieth century to at last discover the answer to that question. It is: the basic behavioral needs of the child, the needs for growth and development as a physically and mentally healthy person, a whole person, one who is able to love, to work, to play, and to think soundly. These are the four great chords of mental health, and that is what education should be about."

Admirers of Montagu's previous books will find many of his important themes repeated here, especially his credo, as H.G. Wells explained, that "civilization is a race between education and catastrophe." For those of us who at times believe that catastrophe is winning, the noble ideas in this work will provide insight, courage and inspiration. The Natural Superiority Of Women will help every thinking man to better appreciate the true essence of women, and help every woman to gain the vision and confidence to fulfill herself, nurture her family, stand up for her rights, and make the world a better — a more equal and a more loving — place to live.

Reviewed by Michael Pastore http://www.zorbapress.com/epweekly/a_epw/naturals.htm

angela146

Constant, before you read all of this, please note my bottom line: I agree with you that a lot of women use sexual advantage to attempt to compensate for their perceived lack of equality.

Those women annoy me. I don't have the intensity of feelings in that direction that you do but I am on the same side of the fence.

However, I assert that the primary cause of those women's inequality is their own choice to be unequal and/or their unwillingness to do what it takes to be equal (i.e. they're slackers). Yup, I got that

Quote:

My original post is just how I feel. I realize it is not right or acceptable to many women.

Sure. Your feelings are valid...

Quote:

I never said physical strength mattered, I just used it as proof or an example that men and women are clearly not equal. ...

It's a pretty week example, considering how little importance physical strength has in today's world... more to the point, I dispute the notion that men and women are not equal, on balance.

Quote:

I also find it ironic that you feel attacked by my assumptions about women, understandably so, but then you make assumptions asserting female superiority. This thread isn't about any superiority except female dominance in the sexual world.

Your question was, in part, "Would you rather be considered as equals to men in everything...". As you indicated above, you combine that with a notion of gender inequality, i.e. that women are at a disadvantage. I assert that women need no "consideration of equality" since, on balance, we are not at a disadvantage

Quote:

Women ARE much better students than men when they are under the age of 24,

There point was a generational one, not an age related one. The societal change that has occured in the raising of girls only affects those who are young enough to have lived through it. (Which happens to fall at or near the GenX/GenY boundary, i.e. people who are currently about 24). This was intended to deny the premise that society is holding women back and that women therefore need society to change and start considering them as equals.

Quote:

I agree, I never challenged the intelligence of women. But, if you believe that being male is an ADVANTAGE when applying for college, you are wrong, especially when applying as an engineering or math/science major.

No... I am suggesting that the societal barriers that used to put women at a disadvantage are no longer there (for "Generation Y") and in fact have reversed somewhat. The current difference in the academic performance between men and women, IMO, is due to an unfair advantage given to women in grade school and highschool. Again, IMO, men and women have equal intelligence on balance.

Quote:

I am not saying women are less intelligent or mentally inferior. I am just saying they are DIFFERENT and therefore, unequal.

Ah, but difference does not imply inequality.

Quote:

Men are better at somethings than women, women are better at somethings than men, I don't get how you argue that men and women are equal yet concede the fact that women are better mothers,

I don't concede that women are better parents.

Quote:

more emotionally receptive, and that men are stronger and call men stupid sex-obsessed pigs.

The stupid sex-obsessed pigs thing is a long standing and false portrayal of men in entertainment media. My point is that that unfortunate portrayal is long standing, not that it is valid

Quote:

If you want to see the difference between me and women, make a list of ten things to do and get 2-3 guy friends and 2-3 female friends. See how long it takes each of them to do the things. Women should come out on top.

Actually, I give men and women things to do all the time in my line of work. While men and women tend to use different methods of getting things done, my experience is that they tend to be roughly equally effective overall.

Quote:

Then ask 2-3 guy friends and 2-3 girlfriends who don't drive the model car you drive, and ask them to parallel park it in a small space, and see how long each one takes. Men should come out on top.

I'll accept that, but attribute it to the fact that driving cars is one of those areas where society has not changed. Girls are still socialized to believe that driving ability is not a girl thing and is not something they should spend time learning how to do. Boys, conversely, are put under a lot of pressure to be good drives or face ridicule from peers.

Quote:

Are any of you actually challenging this or are you just "notifying" me of the recent female "accomplishments" in the last 30 years, which I am already well aware of?

I am challenging a lot of the premise in the original question.

Quote:

I'm not pulling this out of my ass, I have actually seen these tests being performed and the data that comes out of it. Ther ARE scientists who agree with this view, but generally most don't like to talk about it because society punishes political incorectness. People have lost their jobs saying things like I have said, it is ridiculous.

Not sure which view you are talking about here.

Quote:

Oppression has been a part of the reason why women have different roles, but it is also biological. Remember, society is a product of human beings and biology.

Women have different roles *primarily* because they choose those roles, not because they are assigned to those roles nor because of differences in ability. Note my use of the word *primarily*.

Quote:

It is GREAT, friggin GREAT that women over the last thirty years are making strides in male-dominated fields. If you noticed the tone of my original post and what I was talking about, you would have understood my "HATRED" towards women was a result of their sexuality and the fact that many of them don't have anything to offer as an intellectual because they have been using their looks to get everything in life.

... and I empathize. I don't particularly care for women who neglect their intellectual development because they can get by on sexual advantage. Yes, they don't bring much to the table

Quote:

I LIKE women who are intelligent, I am not against TRUE female empowerment. I am against politcal correctness and the idea of equality, though. I never questioned the UNequality of males and females, someone else did.

That would be me, I believe. If some women are unequal, it is because they are slackers.

Quote:

I bet you if I made a post about 10 reasons why men are stupid pigs, no one would object.

I might not object but it would be because I am biting my tongue and trying not to get myself in trouble.

rogue49

Your issue is simply this...

you "hate" women because you are frustrated you aren't getting what you want from them.

you want "love" or "sex" or "friendship"...whatever.
but for some reason or another, either you can't initially get what you want. or if you do...you can't continue it.

well, welcome to the real world...most people are this way.
and believe it or not, it's irrelevant whether it's a man or a woman,
or you are a man or a woman
straight, bi, gay...man/woman, woman/woman, man/man.
You are always going to be frustrated by the person you are attracted to.

And you are translating this into "hate" for the whole gender.
You are giving them this "power".

If you learn that you are just dealing with another person
who has their own agenda, likes & desires.
This person just happens to be a woman that you're attracted to.

Would you let a man, have this kind of "power" over you?
Relax, don't put them in a "special" place, on a pedistal.
No matter what bullshit they tell you or have told you in the past.

Treat them as a person, as a friend...not something to attain.
Yes, pay attention to them...but pay attention to them as a friend.
Compliment them as a friend...etc, etc.
The sex will come when it comes, the relationship will come when it comes, the love will come when it comes.

And if it doesn't...bad luck...pick yourself up...and start over.
Just like we ALL have to do...both men & women.

Don't "hate" a gender, don't give a gender "power"
Because EVERYONE has to deal with idiots & assholes of EITHER gender.

Neither gender has power over the other,
unless you GIVE them that power.

It's up to you to have the confidence to surpass this.
And with this confidence, you will find your luck changing.

Jonsgirl

Dude, You feel very strongly about this, and I can respect you for that. It does not sound, however, that you know what the hell you believe. I found several contradictory statements in your "aurguments" that I don't understand. Here is one:

But earlier you stated....

Thrughout you post, are you referring to gender and sexaulity as one in the same? (I can see how you are since it does not seem that you can seperate women who are proud of thier sexuality and those women whom I gather you reffer to as sluts.)
If you are why the sudden change of tune?
If not; how can sexaulity be abolished but race and gender stay as relevant definitions of a person?
I suggest you step back, clam down, evaluate how you really feel and then come back to this post.
Thank you, "a sexually free, independant, strong female"

__________________
Someday, someone will best me.
But it won't be today, and it won't be you.

lafemmefatale

Well, i dunno about anyone else, but i'm a bit lost after reading all this...SO, to answer your OFFICIAL question.

I love the fact that my bf can look at me with a firy lust in his eyes. If other men do, that's fine by me [just don't tel me as to prevent awkwardness]. HOWEVER, i do not expect that lust to transform into special priviledges [sp?] or disadvantages. In the modern world it's less and less likely [thank god] for that sort of thing to happen.

The problem I have with the question is really that it's all or nothing. Either have female sexuality and power or be equal in everything. Well, I don't want to be equal in eveything, I want to be celebrated for my differences, not only as a woman, but as an individual. And I want and like my sexuality BUT I dont believe in using it as a tool to get things, and neither do a lot women.

Some people, not just women, are opportunists. Not all of them. There are a lot of noble human beings, in fact i have to say most of them are decent. But your example in saying that women want equality but use their sexuality to get things is, and must be, based solely on some personal experiences, tales and rumours heard and seen. It's not factual that the majority of women use sex as a tool.

There are women that do that, because there are men that let them. SOME men have the strong craving for sex so these women, so inturn, these women, seeing the opportunity, exploit that.

I do not want to be grouped in the same category as these women. Any self respecting woman [and most of them are] would really be offended to be considered as such. So please, until you can give me a statistic from an official source, instead of basing it on what seems like solely personal experience, to draw the conclusion that women are sexual opportunists with a double standard of expecting equality is illogical and highly dangerous for your sake.

However as a side note, I do understand where you're coming from and why you say what you do, but believe me, the sort of women you're talking about are undoubtedly in the minority. As well there are other facotrs contributing to using sex as power and that is low self esteem. Women who believe they cannot amount to anything due to a lack of proper upbringing may use sex as their only tool in mistaking it for respect. There are a lot of women [again not the majority] with low self esteem. Do not make it worse. Help them instead of bashing them.

__________________
-poor is the man whose pleasure depends on the permission of another-

collide

Someone once told me that there is no such thing as equality, and it's true. It is more realistic to keep things as balanced as possible, and that works for me. I don't believe in being equals to men because it implies that being equal means changing everything I'm about to be like a man, and wouldn't trade being a woman for dick (so to speak). Additionally, a woman does not need to be a sex object to be powerful; in many cases it is actually a great handicap for women to be viewed as such.

__________________
"inhuman fiery goat worship" is an anagram for "information superhighway" -kingvolc

analog

Holy shit this is a rant thread if EVER there was one.
Took me 15 minutes to sort through the bullshit.
I'm not attacking your obviously super-charged opinions, but I do have a few things to add:

I agree with angela whole-heartedly when she said that women are NOT necessarily better parents than men. To say that the fact that women possess more "nurturing" qualities makes them the automatic better parent is ignorant and assumptive, and there is nothing to prove this. Any man or woman can be a great or shitty parent, it's all in how they do it.

Have you ever heard of post-partum depression? Yeah, that's what happens to some women after they give birth. In the months after the baby is born, this refers to the depression many women slip into because of the new child. Sometimes this results in the death of the baby by the mother's own hands. Men don't do this- not to say they're better, this is only to support the fact that it is stupid to assume women are better parents. Everyone has their pluses and minuses.

Consider this: not all cars are equal, not by a long shot. But can cars fly? No. Can cars travel under water? No. So in these respects, all cars are equal because they will all sink in water and none of them can become airborn. Sports cars are fast and strong, but waste gas and are a burden to the environment. Hybrid cars are fuel-efficient and good for the planet, but are still costly and are not as strong or fast.

Everyone in this world has advantages and disadvantages, but we are all human.

A woman's power and her sexuality have nothing to do with the other. She can most definitely have both- and when they do, that's something incredible. Angela seems to have this, and I applaud her for it.

Please stop allowing your head to be filled with PC nonsense like "women are sex objects". PLEASE. Women objectify men just as much as we objectify them, they just do it differently. (Please note that soap operas' popularity has VERY little to do with the acting or content and a LOT to do with the beefcake. See: George Clooney, Ricky Martin, etc.) If this is a male-dominated world, then it would make sense to not see as much objectification of men in the media- the women aren't controlling it (in this hypothetical, ladies- i'm working for you here) as much as the men are. Men respond to the objectification of women differently than women do of men. It's just how our brains work, and has <b>little</b> to do with gender, it has to do with sexual preference. Every average lesbian out there is just as guilty of female objectification as an average heterosexual male, and so on with all permutations of sex/sexual preference. Male or female, if you like boobies, you'll objectify women, if you like the man-package, you'll objectify men, plain and simple.

If you want to rant, rant. It's your right as a human being and you can rant as you please- but don't rant and then say you're just "confused" or you "don't understand". You're ranting. Admit it, have your conversations and let people learn of your opinions, and then we'll all go on to something else.

james t kirk

I wouldn't say that.

You should know some of the women i have known.


Actually, i have read your posts up till now and you do sound like quite the sexist to me.

It's the old, "I am not a racist but" scenario.

siryn

Hmmmm, what a thread.
First to answer the original question...I wish that sex were equal opportunity for all players. To clarify, first let me put the field from my view into perspective. Though you can say that women have sexual power, by being able to hold it over men's heads, I think that the situation is far different. Men have the power when it comes to sex and here's why. I'll use my situation as an example. I am a bisexual female, who is very open to having all kinds of sexual experiences with all kinds of people. However, I am unable to do such things, because society tells me that
1)It is unacceptable for me to hit on guys (how many macho guys have that "I don't like the chick taking the lead" idea? that is society-enforced)
2)It is unacceptable for me to be interested in kinky stuff (i.e. bondage, facials, etc.) or voice such an interest.
3)Wanting to have one night stands or be friends with benefits makes me a whore.

These are all examples of not just preferences guys have, but ideas that boys grow up believe, though some are able to cast away such society-enforced bullshit. The fact that guys grow up thinking this crap, and girls are taught to feel guilty if they have these kind of feelings puts men in the sexual power position. Even in cases, where guys encourage stuff, like girls masturbating, chicks often feel like they're dirty to do such a thing, but for guys it is a fact of life.

I absolutely never use sex as power, and I think its total crap that girls would do such a thing, but in a way, when girls are brought up thinking that all the previous statements, sometimes holding sex over a guy's head is the only way that they CAN have control over sex. I think that the only way girls will stop doing that kind of thing is if they gain the power to express themselves sexually without being labeled sluts.

analog

I hate that macho bullshit. Most guys I know aren't like that. Maybe a change of venue would help that? I hope so, guys like that are an embarrassment.

I can tell you exactly why. This stereotypical male we all see and hear about wants a girl who is untouched, virginal, and innocent. This type of male wants to be the sexual conquistador of her world- and since he can't have that all the time (or ever) he wants as close to it as he can get- which means no kink unless HE wants it. I guarantee most of this type would LOVE to coat your face, but only on his terms- otherwise it's that lack of innocence bullshit again. Like I said before, these guys are embarrassing.

I hope one day this double-standard will just go the fuck away. This is the most tiresome and out-dated of double-standards as far as I am concerned. And as angela146 noted once, it's not even really the guys who cause this, but other women as well- and almost more often. In fact, if a guy is looking for a casual fuck, he'd much prefer a girl who can handle a single night of string-free sex. The good thing though is that these girls are catty and stupid. Shame on them for castigating what is perfectly normal and healthy!! Oh well. Great posting, siryn, thanks for your thoughts.

Fallon

k, I'm trying to understand this.
In my understanding, I'm going to try to use an example, please tell me if I'm wrong or modify it so it's right...
One of your gripes is that lets say you are going to a resturant, as a male, and you're told that you are going to have to wait. An attractive female comes into the same resturant, and she says she doesn't have a reservation, so in theory, she should have to wait longer then you. So she starts flirting with the guy behind the counter to get a table before you and she gets it. Now, later on, let's say you work with said female she starts complaining that she hates being viewed as a sex toy.
It's a horrible example, but that's about the only thing I got from one of the things you've said...

motdakasha

I would rather not be viewed as a sexual object because it gets in the way of things and living my life. While sex is something I love and enjoy, I don't like the idea of being thought of only for the purpose of sex.
I am not really going to go into detail to explain my opinion because this thread has basically turned into a gender superiority battle, but I think as a whole, our genders are equal. When you look at details, one gender is typically better than another at something like math and English. But if you were to place men on one side of the scale, and women on the other, we come out about equal. While men may be a little better at math, women are a little better at English, which makes things equal in my eyes.

Unfortunately, most societies encourage a misogynistic outlook on gender. I feel sorry you think women are weak "in any other aspect besides sexuality."

My father is a firefighter. I disagree with you. The majority of women who can pass the initial physical tests make great firefighters.

__________________
=^-^= motdakasha =^-^=
Just Google It.
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(I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)

collide

This doesn't necessarily demonstrate that she used her sexuality to have her way. A man can have just as much charm or charisma as a woman. It really depends on the approach and the individual. It is completely possible for a good-looking man to convince a woman to give him a table if the roles were reversed, so this argument doesn't hold any water. You are also confusing charm with objectification. Just because she is flirting with the guy, doesn't necessarily mean that she views herself as a sex object or vice versa. Physical attraction is all very superficial, but it also acts as a springboard for getting to know someone better. If he is simply content on an excuse to talk to this attractive woman, then it's really two in two, and everyone gets what they want in the end.

__________________
"inhuman fiery goat worship" is an anagram for "information superhighway" -kingvolc

Fallon

I know I know, it was a horrible example. That's just the situation that popped into my head.

iandj777

Women and men are not equal. But they do deserve to have the same opportunities as each other. There should not be things that are limited to one gender because of social sterotypes.
The fact that each side is drastically different from the other is what makes the opposite so attractive. In physical terms alone Men love the way a women looks because because they are so delicate and smooth and women like men because our bodies have harder lines and we have a generally more rugged look. And the differences continue from there.
There is nothing wrong with the two being so different. I love women because they are so different from me, inside and out.

__________________
I have nothing more to say

Regziever

I don't know where I read it but it was a verry big study in Sweden a while back to see if there was any difference between men and women when it came to intelligence, problemsolving and logical calculations. The study concluded that there were absolutly no difference between men and women when it comes to thinking matters (and no the size of the brain doesn't matter it is how you use it (honestly no phun intended) .. just look at Einstein his brain was 30% smaller than the average male brain).
The only difference between men and women are the obviously physichal ones, the different roles we are given when it comes to procreation.
This whole thing about multitasking and language stuff as well as the mathematical, linear, spatial differenses. they don't exist, it's all part of what we learn and train (a big part comes from what kind of upbringing we get during our childhood). A man can learn exeptional multitasking if he works with tasks that need multitasking. A woman can learn exeptionall spatial, mathematical skill if she works with tasks that requires it.

The study also concluded that men and women are equally sexual, the only difference is that women "disguise" their sexuality thanks to remnats left by outdated social values and stupid religious ideas. Men has a more open and laid back attutude twoards their sexuality and is more openly showing it.
They say a man thinks about sex 90% of his waking hours, the study concluded that so are women, this is the way it should be, if it is less (aside from individual differences) there is something wrong since it goes against the nature of humans because our nature (this is not the only nature of humans but it is the strongest) is to procreate.

__________________
Life is shit,
Death is even worse,
So what's the point of killing yourself?
/Ignatius Camryn Paladine

wry1

Constant, trust me: we are inferior.

I'm a guy, and I think the single greatest proof of our inferiority is this: How many drinks have you bought women?

The fact of the matter is this....so long as the male is the one doing the pursuing, it is not a matter of debate. We pursue the women we are attracted to because they are superior. We hope that we will have the opportunity to form a lasting relationship with these women for just that reason, and usually wind up making asses of ourselves in the process.

You show me women who've done that in pursuit of you, and maybe - just maybe - I'll change my tune.

So yes, Angela and Double D have it right.

Booboo

Sorry but I dont buy any of that Supiority/Inferiority crap. (either way)

I agree with many of the coments Regziever made. I beleive it depends soley on the environment you grow up in.

I think I'm one of the younger people posting here.. (18) and I think things are changing for future generations.

Like other people have mentioned.. the reason you dont see women persuing more men, is because it is felt to be socially in-acceptable(I certinly dont.. if you like a guy do something about it, most of us are morons when it comes to picking up "signals"). But like I said I think that is changing, as I see plenty of girls from my generation going after guys.. though I wont speak for older generations.

Who are any of us to say which gender is better.. as any opinion is more than likely going to be at least a little biased,one way or the other, by our personaly experiences or facts we THINK we know.

There certainly are differences, but are they important?
I think some people need to think about it.

__________________
"Your life is yours to live, go out and live it" - Richard Rahl

Shyla Loral

Hmm, very interesting thread. I am a short, 34 year-old, incredibly big busted woman. I admit that I don't want to be treated as a sex object because of my boobs, but, at the same time, I've used my femaleness to my advantage. For example, I'll bat my eyelashes at the grocery store, and say (only when I really can't) "Could you reach that for me please? You're such a sweetie." Or I used to go to Auto Zone alone, leaving my ex husband behind, so I could get free/better advice about fixing my car. I even convinced a guy to tighten my alternator belt for me, but I did tip him $10.
This is a paradox, I admit. Tired of guys looking at my boobs when they meet me, instead of in my eyes, while using my power to my advantage.
I guess I feel I don't have much power. Many men do treat me as a sex object, because of my boobs. Part of me says "To hell with them, if that's their preconceived notion of me, I'll go with it, as long as I get what I want." However, I don't do this is romantic relationships, or friendships (that I know of).

__________________
"Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead" Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac.

Meff r0x

stingc

I think an important point is that most women spend a ridiculous amount of time/effort trying to look good. Nearly all women's magazine's are about wearing this or that to "make him want you." Most women seem to love shopping, getting their hair done, etc etc, and have so many variations on it. A lot of women base their self-esteem on how they perceive their looks.

If you act like this, you are using your sexual power over others (or trying to). There's no other reason to do it. Maybe you're happy just getting side glances from guys walking down the street (or maybe just your husband), or maybe you get more tangible things out of it, but almost all women seem obsessed with some sort of sexual power/acceptance. Men don't care nearly so much.

Whether its the conscious reason or not, acting this way gives women a lot of power over men. You'll get things more easily whether you try to flirt or not.

If an attractive man gets something from a woman because he is attractive, its not normally because he has spent a large amount of time augmenting his natural abilities. Most women *have* consciously augmented themselves, so it makes no sense to get mad at an obvious consequence of those actions.

Btw, men don't like all the primming, girls (in the long term). You'd probably end up a more interesting person if you spent your time on other things.

stingc

I think men and women are very different, but I like this statement. I think it probably explains a lot. My own experience backs it up. I went to a university focused on science, math, and engineering. We had around 30% women (and they were admitted more easily too). Most of them were not attractive. The top few most attractive girls in each freshman class usually did not end up graduating.

There are several possible reasons for these observations, but I think that motivation is a main one. Attractive women get a free ride in anything they do, and that has to be a very tempting power (even if its not consciously used that way). Hence attractive women would be less likely to work hard on anything academic. That could explain why the women were so plain.

I saw this effect in action a little too. Those hottest women that didn't graduate wouldn't have been so special in a normal high school, yet they were suddenly worshipped by almost everyone around them. The attention often destroyed their work ethic in one way or another.

motdakasha

I agree!


I disagree with you on this. I think men and women are hardwired differently because there are numerous studies (not just one big one) that prove that in many aspects of our brain, we are different. Sure, a man can eventually become up to par with the language of an average woman with some effort. And a woman can become equal in skill level at math as a typical man. However, coming to the same conclusion in math does not mean their brains are exactly the same.

It's been shown again and again that men and women's brains are mapped differently, which explains why men have a head start for some things and vice versa. For instance, when men get into a car accident and their left side of the brain is damaged they are more likely to lose speech/language skill than women. This is because men's language area is located only on the left side of the brain. Women, however, process language on the right and left side of the brain, so if the right side is damaged, they're more likely to maintain or have less loss of their language skill than men. This is because they have the right side they can rely on whereas men do not. Google: Yale research men women read brain. More info on this here: The Yale Herald: Rhyming tasks male and female brains differently.

Even if you can state one site, I am not convinced because studies overwhelmingly show the opposite: Our brains are different.

More articles:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/htdoc...624-000003.asp
http://www.physicspost.com/articles.php?articleId=159
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0613075252.htm
http://ozcountry.com/tip21.html
Google words: men women sex (or sexual) brain different

__________________
=^-^= motdakasha =^-^=
Just Google It.
BA Psychology & Photography
(I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)

Regziever

What the study showed was not that our brains are built the same but their functions are the same. As for head starts, I still withold my point that it is simply what we learn that define our skills, it may be that we, through the relentless course of evolution, have evolved ways that makes it eaisier for men to learn math and spatial abilities as women have it easier to learn multitasking and language.
But in the long term male and female intelligence both in the math department as well as the language skills are the same.
We grow up differently, women mature faster creating a difference betwen them and the males in their age. Male maturing cateches up and around the age 20-25 all the differences are gone.

I have met women who can't walk and chew at the same time. and I have met male fighterpilots (i admit i have never met a female one) that use multitasking skills to such extreme levels that most women can't mimic them even if their life depended on it.
I have several female friends who calculate third degree equations in their heads with the ease and skill of a computer.
I know men who can't calculate the area of a square with the aid of a calculator.

As we begin our lives, during our childhood and through our teenage phase we are different, but when we reach 25 we are exactly at the same level because we learn to overcome our differences.

__________________
Life is shit,
Death is even worse,
So what's the point of killing yourself?
/Ignatius Camryn Paladine

hu-man

(http://twtd.bluemountains.net.au/Rick/liz_a3k.htm)






http://www.lclark.edu/~nilsen/wasserman.html

CrazyJake

Its as simple as this.....Men act like they have power... Women let them think this.... A man is ruled by his penis... Most of the world's assassins are female... that isn't a co-incidence...lol... You see a girl with a nice rack... ok, ANY rack and men are distracted... we are dogs... and women wear things to accentuate this (unless you are the dike office manager, who scares everyone) ... All I'm saying is that men rule the coorporate world because WOMEN are usually MOMS... They want to stay home with the family... Its been that way for centuries... If women want to work GREAT... but men have always been and will always be the FINANCIAL providers... and the ta ta's we men like so much will always be showcased by the ladies... - Jake

__________________
A smoking section at a restraunt is like having a peeing section at the pool.

motdakasha

There are exceptions to every generalization. Duh.


hu-man, how very Giant Hamburger-esque of you. *applause*

__________________
=^-^= motdakasha =^-^=
Just Google It.
BA Psychology & Photography
(I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)