Gilda

So I've always been a fairly shy person. I have difficulty connecting with other adults in real life, to the point that colleagues, most often the other women, tend to think of me as cold and distant. I am distant, there's no denying that, but I'm definitely not cold, just afraid of saying or doing something stupid, foolish, embarrasseing, or offensive. Sometimes after a conversation, I'll go back and replay it in my head to figure out exactly what it is that might have done or said wrong, that others might have been put off by.

This does have an upside to it. It keeps me from saying or doing things that are stupid, foolish, offensive, and thus being embarrassed.

And I think that most of the time, that's how it works. There's a downside, in that I tend not to have many friends, countered by an upside, which is that I don't tend to offend people and thus make enemies.

Being too shy to actually approach a girl I found attractive may have left me alone and dateless for months at a time, but at the same time it had the advantage of never having been embarrassed at propositioning a girl who was straight, or who didn't find me attractive, or was involved, etc. Being shy saved me from a lot of negative stuff.

Being an introvert in a public place works the same way. While driving cross country recently, I stopped at a Denny's and was promptly ignored for half an hour. I left without comment and ate at the MacDonald's next door. Downside: I wasted half an hour waiting to be served. Upside: I didn't give my business to a restaurant where, for whatever reason, I wasn't wanted. Another upside: I didn't have to confront them and find out why they didn't want me there, thus being embarrassed at being told directly why I was unacceptable. Was it the way I was dressed, or how I acted, what? On the one hand, it would be nice to know so that I could avoid doing whatever it was that made me unwanted th enext time I was in a restaurant and get good service, but on the other hand, it would be embarrassing to be told directly why I was unacceptable. So just leaving and not returning without confrontation has a bigger upside than the alternative.

Sissy doesn't understand how I can wrangle 25 12-year-olds or give a presentation to 200 colleagues, yet be afraid of telling the waitress I haven't been served yet. It seems obvious to me. In those situations, I'm the authority figure; it's my turf so to speak. I'm granted an automatic measure of respect as a result of my position. The same isn't true of a restaurant, or store, or any other public place. I have no power, no authority granted there to build on save whatever the particular people working there choose to grant me. There's no way to transfer from my professiion to personal life.

If I were with Grace, or with Sissy for that matter, she'd have taken care of the problem, which would have only an upside to it. We'd get served, but I wouldn't have to be the one to be embarrassed by having to confront the people over why they didn't want me there.

This is where Sissy has a different interpretation. She thinks I'm missing out on life, that being afraid of confrontation and embarrassment, that avoiding conflict are bad things. This is, I think, because the downside that I list for those things above isn't a downside for her, or is such a minor obstacle that the scales balance differently. She fails to see that for me, and others who avoid conflict, the stress that comes with it takes a big effort to overcome, and lingers long afterwards. The scales balance the other way. I'm a different person. For me, avoiding confrontation is beneficial because the conflict itself is harmful, regardless of the outcome.

We were watching the wonderful movie Awakenings sometime last year. There's a scene near the beginning of the movie when Dr. Sayer first arrives at the hospital. After speaking with the receptionist and being told to wait, Dr. Sayer stands in the middle of the waiting room to wait to be called.

Sissy wondered aloud, "Why doesn't he sit down?"
I answered, "There's no place to sit."
"There are empty seats all over the place."
"Yeah, but he'd have to sit next to somebody."
"Yeah?"
"That's why he's not sitting down."
"I don't get it."

It's a matter of perception. Sissy would have picked an interesting person and struck up a conversation. By the time five minutes had passed, she'd know their name and have a brief life story, and she'd be genuinely interested in it. Grace describes it as Sissy "collecting people" To her, sitting next to a stranger is an opportunity. To me, it would be a chance to say or do something embarrassing or offensive.

Being more assertive would lead me to be able to sit down, and thus be uncomfortable while hoping the person next to me wouldn't start talking to me. Being more assertive would lead to my being worse off in that situation, not better off.

After writing all that, I'm not really sure what my point is. People refer to being shy and passive as if it's a disease. It's not, and it's not, I think, really harmful most of the time. Unless I'm missing something in how I'm looking at this, the benefits nicely balance the costs in most situations.

And yet, somehow I find myself in assertiveness training, or did, with my therapist, even though I'm not sure I want to be more assertive. It takes an enormous amount of effort, and brings as much bad as good. In some ways, probably more. Suppose I'd been assertive enough to ask out those girls I found attractive. I'd most likely have been turned down most of the time. Let's assume that 3 out of 4 would have said no, probably a very generous estimate. I base this on the ratio of guys I accepted dates from when I dated guys. That means that I'd have been turned down 3 times for every time I got a date. Three times as many failures as successes. The negatives outweigh the positives 3 to 1.

So logically, being shy and introverted saves me from more trouble than it causes, by a wide margin. So why do I end up unhappy with situations like the one in Denny's, when I know I'm better off the way I did things? Being too shy to ask out attractive women on a date had a huge benefit: I ended up with Grace.

All of this goes out the window when I'm with her, of course. She takes care of the confrontation, and it doesn't seem to phase her.

So I'm at this place where I'm not even sure I want to be less shy, more assertive. I don't really see the upside to it, but still have this nagging feeling that Sissy and Grace get something out of life that I'm missing.

I hope this makes some kind of sense. I've been avoiding finding a new therapist here, and this is the kind of thing I usually talked to with him.

Gilda

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~Steven Colbert

Cynthetiq

I didn't have time digest the whole thing....

but here's one point that I'm going to start with and then see what else I can add.

I won't claim that I'm an introvert, but I'm definitely not an extrovert. I try to be what I need to be when the time calls for it. That said, I have lots of people in my phone book, lots of "friends" you may call them. I have tens of contacts in my book, some professional, but more or less, above an acquaintance. I have social obligations to some of them from time to time which I decide if I truly need or want to attend to them.

But let me tell you how many people came to visit me in the hospital or even called me in the hospital... a grand total of 2 visitors who trekked all the way from NYC to Long Island. Family called and a couple of close friends (Quadro and Jess) called on a regular basis. That was it... out of all the "friends" that I have... 4 were there when I was in distress.

Take from this what you may... but quite honestly, I've learned that my friends are friends, and some say that they will be there when the chips are down, but there are even fewer that will really walk the walk that they talk.

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match000

Even those ones that you "hang-out" with alot, the ones taht you thought for sure would be there at the hospital, did they show up?

Suave

Well I think the reason why people don't like being shy is that it doesn't give you a lot of options. It's essentially a fear-based response, and fear is one of my least favourite emotions. Obviously there can be positives to it (depending on one's point of view), but I see it as more of a drawback than an asset personally. Hence, I do my best to work past it.

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match000

Are you sure you can't just try to get over it and go up and randomly talk to people? If talking to people you could possibly like is a problem, why don't you talk to people who you will not be attracted to as a start? Go to an old person's home and talk to them as practice.

pje120

I'm not exactly sure of the point of your post, but you seem to be confused, so I thought I would reply with some of my observations.

Firstly, introversion and shyness aren't necessarily related. Introversion just means more interest in the internal world than the external world. This will be seen as shyness. Basically, introversion is when the person doesn't want to act. Shyness is when the person wants to act, but he/she doesn't (usually because of lack of confidence, anxiety, or internal conflicts). It seems to me you're confused if you want to move past introversion and be a bit more extraverted, but not sure if overcoming the shyness is worth it. Maybe you already see all this, but it's important to be definite.

I hope that you understand that this isn't necessarily an upside. It's only an upside due to your insecurity. If you were more sure of yourself you wouldn't care so much about what people think of you, and doing something stupid wouldn't affect you so much. Everyone does stupid things sometimes. I'm sure you know plenty of people who do stupid things all the time and don't let it get to them.

Think about what is happening: you want to do something, but fear what *other people* think of you if you do it. You are letting *them* choose what you do, giving them the power. Is this what you want? Or would you rather do what you want to do?

Again, it's a downside because of internal reasons. If you change yourself (become stronger) then the downside is gone, and only the upside is there. I really hope that you understand that, since I think you'll be much clearer on what you want to do if you see that. Negative stuff happening is no big deal -- it's only if you let it affect you, that's bad. Other people are less shy because they don't let those things affect them, and therefore they are less fearful of them.

Yes, it seems obvious to me too. You are letting other people decide the power. You act with confidence when you know other people will perceive you as confident; you act with shyness when you feel other people might perceive you as a dork (or whatever).

You keep talking as if being less shy will cause negative things to happen to you, but the things aren't negative in themselves; they are only bad if you let them get to you. You can choose to be embarrassed or not if the restaurant doesn't want you. Well, maybe not, but you can work up to it as you gain self-confidence.

You are a different person, but the differences you are referring to in your post are restricting differences that you will be happier without (too easily influenced by other people's opinions of you).

If you aren't sure you want to be less shy then don't try to be. You can't become more assertive without the motivation to change and right now you don't, so don't bother. I suggest work on your self-confidence: when this builds up, you will be less fearful of confrontation/embarrassment etc. and overcoming shyness will be much more attractive. Then you can use that motivation to do that. Build your self-confidence by learning more about yourself, and becoming confidence on who you are (and who you aren't). When you are confidence about who you are, you will be less concerned if people disagree with those conclusions. (Example: If you are confident that you are an acceptable person worthy of eating in that restaurant, you won't be hurt by people thinking you aren't; you'll just see that it says something about them, not you.)

highthief

I can't see any upside to being so pathologically afraid to speak to people that you can't get service in a restaurant, one that you wanted to eat in. I'm not entirely certain, like pje120, of the reason for the post either - just a vent or a desire to be analyzed to death?

I agree largely with the previous poster - you seem to "want" to be shy on some level.

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FngKestrel

I had a long post all ready to post, but pje120's post pretty much summed it all up.

I will offer that I can relate. I was pretty introverted for a long time, very mindful of how other people perceived me. It wasn't until I made a conscious effort to getting outside my comfort zone and probing the waters that I was able to be more extroverted.

You care what people think. But you care what everybody thinks, which makes you eager to please, or at least eager to not participate.

But I think you know all that. A side effect of being introverted is extreme self-examination, which has its strengths, but is very easy to dwell on. If you want to change then you need to first change your perception of the problem. If there's no perceived problem, then there's no clear solution or even a need for a solution. I think your perception is already starting to change, otherwise why would you have posted this thread? It seems like you're posing a question on whether or not you have a problem. Like the events you've recently experienced have made you start to question your worldview.

IF you decide that you have a problem (and it has to be your decision, not someone else's decision, be it concerned TFPers or your therapist), increasing self-confidence is definitely the next step. By increasing your comfort zones and feeling like you have authority, not simply because you're a teacher, but because you are a smart, attractive, and capable woman. That in its own right entitles you to authority. To reduce it even further, the fact that you exist gives you authority. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and is equally entitled to voice it. You are no different.

But the desire to change has to come from within, first in perception, then in action.

Of course, if you feel like I'm projecting onto you, you can blow me off (and that would be me trying not to offend).

martinguerre

as a shy person in recovery...

i think one of the problems is that your math is heavily weighted to give you the result you're looking for. Rejection isn't the only cost involved. Not knowing if you had a chance is one too...because i know the times i didn't get up the courage to say something...even if it might have been a shoot down...those are the times i regret the most.

i don't think you have to be anybody but you...but one thing to consider is that there is an automatic level of respect that you need to grant yourself just to get through the day. in denny's, you're a patron. that gives you status. in that comic book shop, the same... walking down the street, hell, you're a human being and a citizen of this nation. that gives you right to be there. i guess my point is that thinking of yourself as not having status compounds some of these situations.

respect is a 24/7 kind of deal....

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Mantus

Gilda, first of all, I wan't to thank you for that contribution. I would say that we are on the oposite scales on this issue. As such I find you of great intrest I hope you come back to this thread and tell us more about yourself.

I have nothing to comment on right now. I think it will take me a while to be on your level so we can understand each other.

Gilda

I'm not exactly sure what the point of the post was either.

The reason I put it up because Grace is off on the other side of the country, and except for phone calls and our sleeping web cam setup, I'm feeling disconnected, because she's my main connection to the world outside my home and job and the internet.

The stuff I put into my OP is there because I don't have a therapist here and it's the kind of stuff I'd usually talk about with him. So I put it here instead.

Gilda

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Willravel

Introvert to introvert, I'm with you. I had trouble approaching women (my wife appproached me). I tried to avoid confrontation and uncomfortable situations. I tried to live life behind glass. I'm a different kind of introvert, though. I'm an ntrovert who forces myself to be an extrovert. When entering the buisness world, I had to adapt a shell in order to move outward and upward. It gives me a slightly different perspective, but I think I still understand where you're coming from. I say be happy with who you are. If you aren't happy being an introvert, make yourself an extrovert. Personally, I love being an introvert. There's nothing more pure than curling up with my wife and daughter at home and reading a book or listening to music.

My wife, not unlike your Grace I imagine, is my extrovert. I don't make her fight my battles, but she finds it easier to be out in the world than I do. When we are apart, I feel like a part of my connection to the world has been severed. That's the downside to beign an introvert.

JustJess

Thanks to you and the others for helping an avowed extrovert understand shyness and introverted-ness better. I truly appreciate that. Just because I'm the obnoxious talkative one all the time doesn't mean I don't want to know more about other people!!

As for being introverted... If we were all extroverted, it would be boring. I see nothing wrong if you are comfortable and happy being introverted. The issue I see is that of the confidence and the self-respect. You don't have to seek out confrontation and meet new people and talk to anyone and all that... why should you if you don't want to?? The part that would concern me is that the way you describe your worldview puts you in a position of someone not deserving respect that we all deserve. Just common courtesy. If you're a patron of the diner, you deserve service in a timely manner. If you're riding the train, people shouldn't shove you out of the way just because you don't like to complain.

People are... well, they're shits, Gilda. All of them, in some way or another. And we all need a little armor of confidence, enough self-respect, to know and deflect that shit off of us. We all take a little shit every day, but it shouldn't be your turn to be shat on 24/7.

Just my thoughts... I think posting/venting is a great idea, at least until you find some one you trust to vent to!

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Mantus

Oh boy, all this talk about interoverts can cause people pingenhole thenmselves. The truth is there are many other factors that can lead people to act in certain ways.

For example some people have a tendancy to move away from things: like pain. While others move towards things: goals, etc. Some people are proactive: they initiate. Others are reactive: they respond. There are internal people: they judge things based on their personal universal concept. There are also external people who gain value from others and the outside world. And still things are not black and white. Some people may be very social in at work and meek in social settings. It's complicated

On top of this, trauma can play a major role in influencing people. I understand that you, Gilda, don't get allong with your parrents to (to say the least) as such you could be afraid that others will reject you in a similar fashion.

Now you talk about the stress of dealing with people. Something I can't put in perspective. But if you would allow me to hazard a guess, perhaps you had to deal with judgemental people in the past and you had enough of it for a lifetime.

So, what I should have said to make this short is that there are many variable out there.

Gilda

Glad to hear that.

I guess I'm just trying to decide if the work required to get to the point where I would be able to confront people in a situation like the one in the restaurant would be worth the benefit.

Gilda

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Gilda

What would be the point of randomly talking to people? I'm not arguing, I just don't understand how I would benefit from this.

I'm no longer concerned with talking to people I'm attracted to; I've found the love of my life and don't anticipate that I'll ever have to date again.

I'm not sure what you mean by visiting an old person's home and talking to the people there. Do they let people do that, just come in and talk to the residents? That doesn't seem safe. Also, why on earth would the people there want to talk to me, to some strange woman who just shows up off the street?

Or maybe I'm projecting because talking to strangers is a difficult thing for me. Anyway, thank you for the suggestion.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

ratbastid

Gilda, I really got everything you said, but there's one thing I want to point out:

There's a common thread to people who find themselves stopped or inhibited in social situations: they take things personally, and they draw unwarranted conclusions.

You have no idea why you weren't served at Denny's. You've arrived at the conclusion that you were personally unacceptable or unwanted, you seem to assume that your mere presence is offensive to Denny's employees, and that they were deliberately avoiding you. You really actually think you know that, like it's a fact.

The fact is, you didn't get service. You think you know why--you believe that it was deliberate and that you were mysteriously "unwanted" for some unknown reason--but the fact is, you have NO IDEA why that happened. Maybe somebody was changing shifts and you were at table at the edge of somebody's area and everyone assumed you were being taken care of. Maybe there was a big party nearby and their server was your server too, but was so focussed on the big table they forgot all their other tables. Yes, MAYBE somebody didn't like the looks of you and decided not to serve you until you went away. (Though... you've never worked waiting tables, have you? Every single customer is a valuable opportunity for tips. A server would never deliberately ignore a customer. Oh, and have you looked at you lately? Can you honestly think anybody wouldn't want to have you in their restaurant?)

The issue isn't about forcing yourself to be assertive on top of all your fear--as you say, that's a losing game. The issue is to confront the automatic assumptions and personal conclusions you draw, because those are the SOURCE of your fear. I encourage you to examine those thoughts, and learn to recognize and deal with them and put them to rest every time they arise.

tec-9-7

I truly hope you are correct. I thought the same thing not that long ago, however it appears that I was mistaken. I have a tendancy to be reserved around people as well (tho not to the degree that you are), but I've been trying to force myself to engage more w/ people I don't know.

Ratbastid is correct. It's not always about you...

Gilda

I think I qualify on both counts, shy and introverted, which is why I said both in the OP. However you want to define them, the problem is that I have difficulty with social interaction and with asserting myself in difficult situations like the one in the restaurant.

I don't know "plenty of people", period. Sissy and Grace don't typically do stupid things, at least not when they're around me. When I do see someone do or say something foolish or offensive, I feel sorry for them, and it tends to serve as reinforcement for me to be careful about what I would say or do in a similar situation.

I do this in situations where I have little to no power. Take the situations I described above. In the restaurant, the waitstaff had the power to decide whether to serve me or not. I can't make them serve me if they've chosen not to. If I want to go out with a pretty girl and ask her out, she's the one with the power, the one who decides whether we do actually go out on a date.

I'm not giving other people power, I'm just recognizing where the power lies in those situations.

I do assert myself, or at least I assert myself more, in situations where I'm the one with the power, my classroom and my home, or at least moreso than I do in a public place or in a social situation.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. If I were more assertive, I'd end up in more situations that I found uncomfortable. If I were stronger, I'd just be encountering that downside more often. This might have the effect of my learning to deal with that better than I do now, but it would still be there.

There are two parts here, being more assertive, and not letting the negative stuff that comes from that bother me. The first, in the absense of the second, causes me more harm than good. But if I had that second quality, that of not being concerned about the negative consequences, I wouldn't need to learn the first. And I don't know how to get to that place.

I understand, and I agree that people who aren't shy don't let things like this affect them, because they aren't as fearful. That doesn't change the fact that I am shy, and I am concerned with how others see me in a public situation. If it were a choice, I might choose differently. I don't know.

I am a dork, nerd, dweeb, geek, whatever term you want to use. I always have been. In my classroom or at home, that doesn't matter because the people in those situations don't care that I'm a socially awkward introvert, because that's irrelevant to those situations. It's different in a public place or at a party or other social situation.

I understand, but disagree. Because I am concerned with not being embarrassed in public situations, being less shy would cause negatives, not because I choose to be this way, but because this is how I am. It wasn't a choice. I can't just choose not to be embarrassed. If I could, I would. It doesn't work that way.

You might be right. On the other hand, sometimes restrictions protect us from harm.

I do know that I was an acceptable person to eat in that restaurant. Had they served me, I'd have been a polite and undemanding customer and left a generous tip. The problem isn't that I think I was unacceptable or what I think of myself; I know I'm a good customer, the kind of customer waitresses tend to like because I'm polite, make few demands, and tip well. The problem was on their end. They, for whatever reason, didn't want to serve me.

As for the rest, you're right, I'm not sure I want to be less shy. Logically, the negatives outweigh the positives, at least in individual situations. But then I look at Sissy and Grace and see that, for example, in the restaurant situation, they'd have made sure we got served and been able to do so without a fuss, and I'd like to be able to do that. But then when I look at the situation as it occurred, I can't see anything I could have done that would have gotten me served without inviting negative attention, and I don't know how to reconcile those two ideas.

Please understand that I'm not dismissing your ideas here. This is just how I deal with stuff like this, bouncing it around, picking it apart and putting it back together so that I can understand how it works and learn to deal with it. I'm not trying to be argumentative and I mean no offense, and I have found your comments helpful, even those with which I disagree.

Gilda

edit: Ratbastid, I just read your response. I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to think about it. I'm tired now, but I'll try to respond tomorrow.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

pje120

Of course not, I did not even think of taking offense. I don't get offended easily, even if the other person is trying to be offensive, so although I don't think you are being argumentative, feel free to be if you want .

It doesn't matter how you define things, but it is important that you are definite and clear on these things. For example, you may wish to write out as clear as possible what makes a situation difficult, as this will give insight into what is the real issue. This requires self-honesty, which is hard for all of us, but it is vital.



Oh I dunno. I used to think that I did stupid things a lot more than most people, but when I watched people to see if this really was true I found that people were doing stupid things all the time. No one knows everything and everyone makes wrong decisions sometimes, but not everyone makes a big deal out of it. I've noticed that many people, when they do something stupid, just make a joke out of it or quickly move on. Maybe ask the people you know what they do when they do something stupid. Something else I suggest you do is learn to laugh about past mistakes, or let a friend (that you know face to face) teach you to laugh about those mistakes. This will make you more comfortable with making mistakes. You're human, you can screw up. Learn this.

You misunderstand. Clearly the waitstaff have the power if you are served or not, you can't change that. But you have the power to how you respond to that, you have the power to how it affects you. Does it really matter if you didn't get served? It's disappointing, but ultimately it's not something in any way important.

I am not saying to be more assertive. I don't want you to put yourself in situations that you can be genuinely hurt. I'm saying don't be more assertive, but instead change internally to become stronger. This will lead to less sensitivity to the things you fear, the fear will go, and finally the assertiveness will be easily achieved.

Yes, this is what I am trying to indicate. Don't try to gain the first without the second, you will just get hurt, and you know this. Instead gain the second.

I understand. It's not possible to change instantly. However I know you can choose to not be embarrassed - not instantly, but little by little, over time, changing your thoughts. In an embarrassing situation you might get embarrassed, and can't choose not to - but you can think about it later, pick it apart, and realise there was no reason to be embarrassed. If you do this with self-honesty, and reach the point you are truely convinced in the deepest part of your personality there is no reason to be embarrassed, then you won't be next time a similar situation comes along. This is how you get to the place with the second quality. It takes time, a lot of self-honesty, and it can be painful, as the self-honesty can lead you to accepting things about yourself that are painful to accept. You basically need to reprogram your scripts.

And, because of the way you think, it affected you. If you change the way you think, you can make it so it doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect other people because they think differently, not because they are magically different in an indefinable way (they aren't). I do not doubt that you can change the way you think. I have changed the way I think, and I have seen many people change the way they think, too. You have more power than you are admitting.

The attention would be negative to you, but not to many others who just wouldn't care. You can reconcile the ideas by becoming like them in that way.

I hope that you reach clarity.

lurkette

Gilda, I completely understand. There are few things that are less appealing to me than meeting new people. I used to have panic attacks and run to the mailbox and back so nobody would see me. Seems to me there are usually several things going on with people who are, for lack of a better term, pathologically introverted. (That is, not just introverted and happy about it, and not just shy and need to be brought out of their shell, but 1. actively afraid of other people and 2. invested deeply in the reactions of others.)

- Fear of harm - being taken advantage of, being physically hurt. This is a legitimate fear that just needs to be suppressed to some extent in order to operate in the world. Most people have some kind of instinct about this that tells them when they're in danger. It's important to keep that instinct alive without letting it run away with you.

- Fear of judgment/rejection. This is the kicker. I used to be afraid to even ask a clerk in a store where they kept the whatever, and I'd wander around for a half hour rather than just interact with another human being. I don't know what exactly I was afraid of, but it had something to do with being judged and found wanting. Eventually I realized the absurdity of this. 1. who says they're going to judge me badly, and 2. even if they do, who cares? It's not like it has a real consequence. So they think I'm funny-looking, or stupid, or have a big butt, SO WHAT?! In no instance am I at risk of physical harm from them, and everything else is someone's opinion. And I'm the one wandering around the store, wasting my time. If the fashionistas at the bar in a restaurant think my shoes are dowdy, SO WHAT!? If the guy I sit next to at the airport doesn't approve of my taste in books, SO WHAT!? If I ask a dumb question and the guy at the cocktail party thinks I'm boring and dull, SO WHAT?! And that's assuming the worst case, that my fears about being judged negatively are true.

The truth is, everyone walks around like this, afraid of everyone else's judgment. Why do you think they (we) act like they do? Why do you think people wear the clothes they wear, or speak the way they do, or affect a particular stance or attitude? It's all just posturing to keep ourselves safe from other people's judgment, or pretend that we don't care. Those fashionistas are all dressing up for YOU. The friendly outgoing guy in the waiting room is putting on a show for YOU! The cashier who won't smile is posing for YOU!! Judgment is just the flip side of fear. It's an assertion of one's own standards to protect one's own position from another person. And that other person is YOU. They're all afraid of YOU!!! Isn't it funny? We're all just wandering around pretending not to be afraid of each other, and really we are all just putting on a good show trying to protect some little kernel of ourselves from each other's judgment. Meantime, we're stifling our true selves.

The sad part is not that we do this, it's that we do it and pretend we're not doing it. You are a step ahead of the game since you have realized you do this and seem to be uncomfortable with it. That discomfort is just "you" realizing that you're stifling yourself. You're caught between the "script" that is running in all of us to keep us safe from judgment, and the urge to be known in the world for who you really are.

If you're interested in an exercise, go up to 3 strangers and just ask them where a nearby store is. Notice the thoughts that happen in your head while you do it - the fears that come up, the assumptiosn you make about yourself and about them. Then notice what THEY do to protect themselves, to signal that they're okay, or to keep themselves safe - what kind of clothes are they wearing? What does their hair look like? Are they wearing makeup? Jewelry? Do they mumble? Do they make eye contact? What does their body language look like? How do they speak? Do people who look like you (gender, age, race) behave differently than people who are different?

Notice at the end of the exercise that you are still here. Safe.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Cynthetiq

This has become quite an interesting thread and helping me see and understand some part of my own self.

Something that I'm also realizing about this is that I do not like to ask for something more than once or twice for something that I want from anyone including Skogafoss. This includes things like sex, dinner, objects, or activities. If I ask don't get a response I will defitinely not respond again to that subject, for some reason I don't like the feeling that someone has over me and my "want".

thanks for shining the light on this for me.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Gatorade Frost

Without having read the majority of this thread, I thought I'd drop an article on you guys that has really helped me out to figure out who I am and why I act how I act:

Caring for Your Introvert

For those who hate links, here's the text of the article:

In regards to my own personal introversion, it generally kept my mouth shut as a whole, and I rarely ever talked. I have half chalked that up to anxiety/anti-social disorder (well, according to my psychiatrist. I have bad anxiety...). Anywho, I took Zoloft for a month or so and I opened up quite a bit. That really helped me out for my transition into college; on my second day of classes I ended up sitting through an hour lecture in the wrong math class, and usually I wouldn't have the courage to go fess up to my real teacher, tell her what happened, and find out what I missed, and instead I'd just go back to my room feeling like a dumbass and then spend the next few weeks wondering if I missed anything major in class, missed a grade, etc. That day I actually went into my real math class, joked about it with my teacher, made sure I got everything, then I went home happy because I knew I didn't miss anything.

I suppose if you hate constantly having anxiety about everything, you could see a psychiatrist about it to make you feel more open and kinda loosen up about everything.

__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

lurkette

Thanks, Gator, for the article - I particularly like this statement: "With their endless appetite for talk and attention, extroverts also dominate social life, so they tend to set expectations. In our extrovertist society, being outgoing is considered normal and therefore desirable, a mark of happiness, confidence, leadership."

I can't tell you how many times I've struggled with my OWN expectations - wanting to leave a party but knowing I "should" stay and be social, wrestling with going out to dinner with colleagues on work trips vs. staying in and having some down time. It's hard to remember sometimes that being outgoing and energetic are not inherently better than being quiet and reflective.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

abaya

Good article, Frost. I have become more and more of an introvert as I've gotten older. I used to be quite the party-host, loved having people over and entertaining friends (see Gatsby). But I remember a specific day in college, my sophomore year, when I realized my core introvert tendencies.. it was the welcome-back day, and everyone was gathering in the quad to hear about the summer and whatnot. After an hour or two of that, I felt like I was going to explode, and ran back to my dorm room. I was exhausted, and retreated to writing in my journal for an hour or two to let out my thoughts before going back to the activities.

I think this pattern has fit me well throughout my life... I do enjoy people, and I'm even an anthropologist. But I can't take them in great quantities (<5, though I prefer 1, maybe 2), and I need long periods of being alone or with my SO to recover from those social situations. Also, as I am in a long-term, serious relationship, I find that ktspktsp's company is pretty much all I want and need. When I was single, I forced myself to be social often because I knew I needed that interaction, and possible wanted to meet someone. But damn, it exhausted me.

I don't know how this addresses Gilda's concerns, but I want you to know that it is not a bad thing to be what you are. It is a bad thing, though, when you have a goal and you don't know how to reach it.. like wanting to be assertive and confident enough to demand good service in a restaurant. The only thing I can say is, it's okay to have those fears, and to believe that your benefits outweigh the costs of extroversion. I know many people who have justified other fear-based decisions (e.g. waiting for marriage to have sex) and they are happy where they are at, and they don't feel like they are missing anything.

But you know what?.. in my opinion, life is about learning to make mistakes and look stupid, yet to do so with confidence and grace. And I don't mean Grace, your Grace. I mean with learning how to fall down, pick yourself up, and say to yourself, "I'm fine, and I don't care if someone just saw that mistake. I am a better person because of it." and to be able to function without your Grace.

Also, look at what you are missing when she is just across the country.. what would happen if she died in an accident tomorrow? How would you cope, Gilda? These are the things I fear, for you... I saw my mother lose my father in an accident, after investing all her hopes and dreams and personality in him... and she was a wreck for so long after that. I still don't think she has learned to be okay on her own, 26 years later.. and that dependence of her personality is inappropriate as a mother. I needed her to be independent and self-sufficient, and she wasn't. And it harmed me.

I don't know what else to say. I accept that you are who you are, but at some level it sounds very much like you are unhappy with the way things are, and that you justify yourself with very detailed self-analysis and thinking instead of really going out there and taking real risks in uncomfortable situations. It is because of this discontent that I really encourage you to get out there, try some really awful, uncomfortable things, over and over and over again (this is a form of cognitive therapy), and eventually... you WILL change. But only if you want to.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Mantus

I remember Bill Maher on Larry King, they bought up Johnny Carson and how people though he was depressed and unhappy. Maher made this statement statement:

Reese

I understand where you're coming from Gilda. People just don't know what I'm going through just to start a "normal" conversation. Am I going to say something offensive to this person? What if I pronouce a word wrong, or slur my speech what's this person's name again? Am I getting my point across!? What if they don't hear me!? Oh, I hope I don't have to repeat myself!! My heart's beating 120mph and all those things are running through my head It's inevitable that I'm going to screw up something. My stress level has hit the ceiling and I just have to get away as fast as possible. Then after I finally pull through the conversation I replay it in my head until I come to the conclusion that I made a total ass out of myself even though the person I was talking to most likely never gave the conversation a second thought.

It's not like you can just choose to not let something affect you. I don't think Gilda wants to stay shy, but you can't just become assertive without causing tons of stress and anxiety. I wish nothing fazed me, I would love to just jump into a conversation with a stranger without worrying about saying the right thing but I would hate to cause myself a ton of stress and anxiety with an off-chance that I'll get over it and never have to worry about it again. I'd rather just stay shy and avoid it all. I assume that Gilda is feeling the same way.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

Gilda

I don't mean to neglect this after I started it, but I've had a rather full Sunday.

Well, I think I assumed that. I was thinking that there isn't really any good business reason not to serve me, so it must be something personal.

It hadn't occurred to me that servers could just forget to serve a customer, that it might not be malice, but incompetence. That's a bit harsh. Negligence maybe.

The way I was thinking went something like this:

When I first entered the restaurant, my immediate thought was that I was way overdressed for this place. I was wearing a nice business suit (gray pinstripe straight skirt and double breasted blazer, ivory camisole silk blouse, black hose and pumps, gold heart pendant and matching hoop earrings, and a pink ribbon) for a meeting I had later on that day, and most of the people were in jeans and t-shirts, and that made me a little uncomfortable.

I was asked if I wanted to sit at the counter, and declined (the counter is fine for jeans and a t-shirt, not so much in a short skirt). I was shown to a small two person booth just behind the little wall behind the cash register. I waited to be served, and nobody seemed to pay me any attention. The hostess passed by me to seat others several times. A busboy came by and gave me a glass of water and some silverware and took my drink order (Earl Grey tea). Nothing happened for five, ten minutes. I decided to wait a little bit. I read the newspaper I had gotten. The hostess continued to seat other people. I sipped my tea and waited. And waited. And began to wonder why the people who come in after me were being served. I decided to give it a few more minutes. Then a few more. I didn't want to make a scene, and I kept telling myself, well they're busy, they'll get to me in a minute. I started to analyze things, what was the problem here? Is my skirt too short? A straight skirt rides up a lot when you sit down. But what if that's the problem, will the people at the meeting notice? I dismissed that, but set it aside as a possibility. Maybe it's the pink ribbon. But why would people find breast cancer awareness objectionable? It's not like it's a rainbow ribbon? I dismissed this also. Was it my haircut? When I got this cut last month, I was going for a butch look. Do they see that, know that I'm a lesbian, and don't want me here because of that? That's ridiculous, nobody can see that from a haircut. Maybe it's my heels; are they a bit too much? Maybe they think three inch spikes with ankle straps is a bit too much, especially with my skirt riding up? Did I overdo my makeup? I tried to be professional but attractive. Maybe people dressed like I was don't tip well. Maybe they just don't like people who are dining alone for some reason. Maybe it's a combination of factors. And so on. After a half hour of putting it off for another five minutes, I decided that I didn't want to know, and it didn't really matter, so I got up and left.

It really didn't occur to me that it might have been an oversight on their part. And looking back now, I doubt that it would have made a difference had I thought of that as a possibility, because it would have been one of a dozen possible reasons, most of which come back to my being unacceptable in some way. The math still comes down on the side of it being likely that they didn't want me there, a dozen possible reasons why didn't want me vs. they forgot about me.

And thank you for the compliment, but I doubt anyone takes physical attractiveness into account when deciding who or when to serve, and I don't really think that it would make any difference one way or another in my case if they did.

I think I can see what you're saying. I'm not quite sure how much that would help, though. As I look at it now, even aware that I was making an assumption that I shouldn't have, even if I include the idea that it was an accident or oversight in the list of possibilities along with the personal reasons, it still would mean a confrontation with the possibility of being told I was unacceptable and why.

I'm not dismissing what you say, and I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just trying to process it and see where it would lead me.

It's late, and I need some rest. I'll try to process this and get to the other comments tomorrow.

Thank you for the imput.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Cynthetiq

hmmmm from the way you describe it... it sounds like you were happy and got what you needed with the tea and didn't require more. My assumption as a server would have been if she needed more she would have requested it, especially since you were well dressed. My personal assumption is that someone who is well dressed is more assertive than someone who is casually or simply dressed and that they will make the request of what they want.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

match000

Gilda, I can understand kind of the fears you are facing. Although my shyness is not extreme, I have an example:

Studying in the library, its supposed to be very quiet. But when people talk loudly or make lots of noise, someone usually does a loud 'SSHHHHH' which shushes them up.

Everytime I feel like I want to do a SSSHHHH but I just can't bring myself to do it. A few times I actually walked over to the people and told them to be quiet, which is WORSE, because it makes me unanonymous in quieting them.

In any case, I was fearful of the SSHHHH-ing because basically it felt much ruder and pruder than going up and asking for quietness.

However, I finally had the balls to SSSHHH once, and although it was tense, every time afterwards has been easier and more natural.

I think this can be analogous to your shyness. Every time you need to assert yourself, just force yourself to do it and it will be easier gradually. It takes alot of guts, I know, but it will be easier after a few times.

lurkette

Um, actually, it IS exactly like that. We live like our thoughts and feelings just "happen" to us, and that they are some reflection of truth. That's one way to live, and it seems to be the way that most people live. I've found that I enjoy my life much more, though, when I realize that my thoughts and feelings are just background noise, and are not the "real" me. They are something that the real me can choose to pay attention to or ignore depending on what I'm committed to at the time. If I'm just going about my business, chances are I'll listen to the "shy talk" and not really bother to approach people. But if I'm at a party where I can either choose to be miserable and wish I knew what to say, or I can just dive in and damn the consequences, I have a lot more fun when I thank the little voices for sharing and go talk to that interesting-looking person and make a new acquaintance isntead of wasting my time being miserable.

You can, actually. You just have to remember that the shit in your head is not real.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

match000

Did it work for John Nash (Beautiful Mind)?

ratbastid

Well, okay, but that's only a possibility inside the assumption you've made. I don't think you entirely got my point (like you say, it was late), so I'll amplify a bit. I warn you now: I DO like to hear my own (online) voice. If I get pontificating here, I apologize.

There are two ways that people generally react in a situation like that: "It's my fault," or "It's somebody else's fault." Neither is necessarily real productive, and neither is necessarily grounded in reality. Still, we tend to go to one or the other of those two places. You've trained youself to be an "It's my fault, there's something wrong with me" kind of person.

Somebody who typically decides it's somebody else's fault is going to naturally speak up to correct the situation. Somebody who decides it's their fault is going to naturally put their tail between their legs and slink away.

Thing is, when you really look at a situation like that, nobody's really at "fault". More like, everybody shares responsibility. You probably already know that when you sit there concluding that you're being personally shunned, you give off "don't come near me" vibes. Look, maybe your busboy somehow got the impression that all you wanted was tea. Maybe that miscommunication got communicated to your server, who then decided not to bother you. Maybe your SERVER has shyness issues too, and you, being so professional looking and probably seeming so distant by that point, intimidated them to the point that they thought they couldn't come check in on you--something like, "She just came in for some tea, which she has, I'll just look weird or pushy if I ask her if she needs anything else. I'll just leave her alone with her paper." Who knows!

My point is, there's this whole WORLD of reasons why this thing happened that is completely unavailable to you, because your belief that you're personally unworthy prevents you from looking beyond it. That's THE reason for you: you're unacceptable, end of story, so then you quit looking. That belief will argue for its own existence--if you look at your response to my message, you'll hear the belief arguing for its own existence. "Yes, but" is the belief arguing for its own existence.

That belief is from LONG before this Denny's incident. You've probably believed yourself to be unworthy and unacceptable for a long, long time, since you were very young--maybe two or three years old. Something happened to you, and you decided you were unacceptable, and it's colored everything in your life ever since. I'll bet that's driven Grace nuts.

I know this about you because you're a human being and this is what we do. There's nothing personal about it--you're a human being dealing with one of the things that human beings have to deal with. We all think we're unworthy and unacceptable. We all decided that at a very early age--around the age when we realize we're a separate person from everyone around us, and we conclude, in a triumph of 2-year old logic, that "I don't belong". Some people get brave and bold to deal with that. Others get shy.

Shyness by itself isn't a problem until it starts to cause you trouble. If you experience a lack of power or freedom in any situation, or if you feel like you can't be yourself, that's when you're up against the limits of what your shyness can provide you, and it would serve you well to examine the roots of it with an eye toward dismantling them. Don't worry--shyness will always be available for you to fall back on. It's not going anywhere! But it sounds to me like you wish you had a couple more tools in your toolbox.

Incidentally, unless you told us here that you're shy (like you have in this thread, and have hinted at in others), TFP would never have guessed it. You bring personal stuff here and open up with it like nobody I've ever seen. You're more willing to be vulnerable here--and risk our disapproval or rejection--than 99.9% of the members, myself included. So it's not just shyness and privacy. It's something about dealing with that conversation in person, face to face that frightens you.

You'll notice, by the way, that when you do that here, you get an amazing response. Your threads are reliably the most interesting, best discussed, and most open conversations on this whole board, and nobody disapproves of you or finds you unacceptable. My strong belief is that if you generated the courage to open up in your life the way you do here, you'd have the same reaction--people would be drawn to you in person they way they're drawn to you on TFP. But until you explore the roots of your fear, that's pretty much impossible for you, because that early childhood belief will continue to argue for its existence, and it'll "yes but" your courage away.

This got long. I warned you! I hope it helps you see this a different way, hopefully a freer way.

hrandani

Oh my god. That article is beautiful. It nailed every single inexplicable thing I have known about myself since I was little.

Fantastic.

Gilda

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

There are few things I'm absolutley certain about in this world. The love I share with Grace is at the top of that list.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Cimarron29414

Gilda,

I present to you the greatest mantra of all time:

"One hundred percent of the shots you don't take, don't go in. " -Wayne Gretzky "The Great One"

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

rsl12

Obviously you're a thoughtful and sensitive individual. You've done a great job expressing your emotions.

One of my introvert friends sent this interesting article to all his friends. In his own words, "Rarely have I read an article that described my plight so perfectly. The opening lines couldn't possibly describe me more precisely."

I tested as an introvert in my younger days, though I question whether that was really the case, or whether it was just crushing shyness. In my conversations, I would constantly be afraid of making a mistake. "Did I sound stupid? Did he like my joke?"

What changed me, I think, was changing the focus of my thoughts from myself to the other person. "Wow, what smart guy! I wonder what he thinks about this other subject." Instead of worrying about how smart I sounded, I started to enjoy how smart/passionate/crazy my fellow humans were.

Of course, there's something to be said for brain chemistry too--whatever inhibitions I used to have are long gone, and I highly doubt it was solely because of a decision on my part to change focus from myself to others. Whatever it was that was debilitating decided to disappear for me. It sounds like your friends think being less shy will lead to a richer life for you, and maybe it will, but they should consider the possibility that you are happier having a few close friends that you treasure deeply. Perhaps forwarding the above article to them will help!

EDIT: bleh--teach me to speak before reading all the responses. Consider this, then a supporting opinion on the article linked.

__________________
oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

Gilda

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert