ScottKuma

[Mods: This might be the wrong place for this...if so, please move it.]

First of all, thanks for reading this...and thanks for offering advice, if you have any.

The Problem: My wife and I haven't had any more intimacy than a cuddle in well over 11 months. The lack of physical intimacy isn't the problem as much as the way she reacts when I even suggest sex..or anything approaching it. She gives this little sad groan that makes me feel about 2 mm tall.

Now for some background:

She and I will have been married for five years this coming October. We have a wonderful, healthy four year-old (Jessica), and an equally wonderful, but not-so-healthy three month old (Evan). Evan has a number of medical problems that have him bouncing in and out of Children's Hospital.

When we had Jessica, my wife experienced a similar drop in libido. That time, we had hardly any intimacy for approximately 15 months. It wasn't EXTREMELY destructive to our relationship, but it DID do some damage. We discussed the problem after we started again, and decided that I was being overly passive & needed to make my desire known.

When we found out we were pregnant with Evan, we had another talk, and she PROMISED me that this wouldn't happen again -- and that she would make a conscious effort to be intimate...on occasion. Plainly put, she hasn't.

I haven't pushed the issue, aside from hints / requests every couple of weeks. I'm trying not to be overly pushy/whiny. I understand that her hormone levels are a large cause of this. I also understand that Evan's condition isn't helping things, either!

My libido has always been greater than hers. Throughout this whole process, I've "taken matters into my own hands". That's gotten old...and frankly, having to masturbate is making me feel extremely ASHAMED.

Last night, we sat, cuddled, and watched a movie. Afterwards, she mentioned that the Baileys we were drinking was making her feel "most pleasant." I took a deep breath & tried again...and got the sad little moan.

I WANTED to flip. I WANTED to scream. What I did, however, was to say, "Honey, when you do that, it makes me feel completely belittled. I feel unwanted & undesirable. I love you, I want to be with you, and I DON'T want to push you...."

I was furious. And, as I usually do when I can't say anything nice, I fell silent. She started bawling. Left the bed, and ran into the bathroom. I hate it when she cries, so I went in and apologized...which in retrospect is asinine.

Why should I apologize for my feelings/desire for her? Why should I apologize when her reaction is making me feel completely shitty? Why should I apologize when I'm being as understanding as I know how to be?

I love her VERY much, but I'm about at my breaking point. I don't want to leave her, but my thoughts lately are really REALLY scaring me. I've actually thought of seeking intimacy outside of my marriage!!

I think she's experiencing a combination of post-partum depression and stress from Evan...and I know this on a logical level...but how do I deal with the emotional level of feeling undesired & unloved? I've suggested (gently, compassionately, and not during or immediately after conflicts between she and I) that she see a psychologist...which she rejects, fearing that there's "something wrong with her."

I'm at a loss.... What more can/should I do?

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maleficent

Has she talked to her own doctor about how she's feeling? Post partum depression is not all that rare anymore, and it's not swept under the rug anymore, it's nothing for her to be ashamed of. Throw into that a child that has some medical problems, which she might very well be blaming herself for... (because of her, her child is not perfect, and she also can't be a complete wife to you - it's gotta be messing with her head.)

I'm glad that you say you love her... going outside your marriage for intimacy is only going to further complicate the situation, which i think you know.

I honestly think you both need some couples counseling... a neutral third party to be able to help get to the bottom of the problem.

i'm just playing armchair shrink here.. but she had post partum depression after the first child - when she recovered from that - it seems she got pregnant again... now she's back in the same boat she was in before... I'm sure she doesn't l ike feeling this way... but based on past experience, when she comes up of it again, she might end up pregnant again, and she's probably afraid of having another child that's not 100 percent healthy.

Why should you apologize? You shouldn't. Going to her and telling her you love her is one thing, you dont have to apologize for anything, but reassuring her that you love her is always good. (And i don't think it's rewarding 'bad' behavior)

Have you tried just getting a sitter, and going on a date with her... just spend some time alone with her, dont talk about babies, just focus on the two of you. the end of hte ngith doesn't have to lead to anything (patience on your part is going to be required) and not having pressure might make her more amenable to it...

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ScottKuma

No, she hasn't talked with her doctor. I suggested that when she's gone for OB/GYN follow-ups...she counters with, "that's not their specialty." She's right, but they certainly can refer her to the right person.

Of course I do...which is why it scares me so damned much. It's something I never thought I would even CONSIDER...and I'm not even at that point yet, but even the proximity to considering it scares me.

Agreed, and expected. How to suggest this?

I'm not even talking SEX, necessarily. Hell, just being touched by her would be nice. What I was offering last night was my making HER feel good - some worship of her body...and then see where it goes from there.

We've had occasion to do this a few times lately. Last night was one of those nights, and it was very very nice. But then things (obviously) went downhill.

Thanks for the advice, by the way!

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Mr Honest

I'm not married (but I am hoping to next year). This has never happened in a relationship with me (but then 2 years was the longest I've been in one so far).

This is a fear of mine. I've already discussed it with the woman I want to marry. We've both agreed that sex is for the rest of our lives except if we are ill.

You don't have any reason to apologise.
I would offer her a massage (unconditional), I hope she enjoys such touching.
Do this a few times, if she never offers to do anything physical back in return it's not a good sign.

Talk to her openly but not aggressively, not in a hostile way.
I'd say something like 'darling I love you, I adore you. I love your smell, your skin, your taste and feel. I feel so hurt when we don't make love. I don't expect sex every day but if we don't show such intimacy for months I feel so lost and upset.'

Suggest to her imagine if there was something she loves you to do and you refused to do it, something so essential to her being that it would hurt her badly if you didn't show her love by doing it.

If you do make love I always love to make my partner feel happy and safe. Whatever turns her on, do it, go down on her, make her comfortable.

overall though make sure you are touching her in ways not intended to lead to sex (hugging, cuddling, holding hands). Tell her you love her and show her whether with notes, doing things for her (making dinner?)

That's what I suggest. Let us know what happens because a sexless marriage is a fear of mine.

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ratbastid

Thanks for asking this question and being so open about your life, ScottKuma, because it gives me an excuse to give some advice that I've wanted to give to several people here lately.

Okay, folks, time for a little lesson in Zen thought. I've noticed lots of people suffering lately, and trying to change everything and everyone around them, and I really think this will help. This might sound at first like it's pretty far afield, but hang with me because you'll like where it ends up.

First a few precepts, then some practical application of those precepts.

Precept 1: The fundamental nature of existence is change. Things are changing constantly, everything is in flux at all times. The walls around you are aging. The cells in your body are dying and being replaced, and not even at a constant rate. The sounds you hear are a function of very rapid changes in air pressure causing the cilia in your inner ear to vibrate, changing the levels of electrical signal your ears transmit to your brain--without change there is no sound. Same is true of sight--light waves are very rapid change on the electromagnetic spectrum. Without change, there's no vision. All perception is a function of change. And that's just an example--I'm talking about EVERYTHING here. Nothing stays the same, ever, it's the fundamental nature of existence. Precept 1 is All Things Change.

Precept 1a: (sort of a corollary to Precept 1) Mostly we don't notice change. You wake up one day and you have lines on your face and your house is falling down, and you're actually surprised about that. And we have no control over things changing or not, nor over how they change. So Precept 1 could be more fully stated: All Things Change, and we have no control over it.

Precept 2: Given what we saw from Precept 1, we human beings behave very strangely in the following way: sometimes things happen that we say are "good". We want those things and try to keep them, or try we to make them happen again. We "grasp" at these things. This is contrary to Precept 1, that All Things Change and we have no control over it. Other times, things happen that we say are "bad". We push these things away and try to prevent them from happening again. We "reject" these things. Again, this is contrary to Precept 1, that All Things Change and we have no control over it.

Precept 3: This "grasping/rejecting" behavior is the source of our experiencing life as suffering and burden. Things are hard or sad or difficult only in as much as we grasp or reject them. In fact, if you are experiencing anything other than freedom, joy, and power, I guarantee you there is something you're grasping or rejecting. If, however, you can live in the experience of the current moment, exactly as it is and exactly as it is not, without grasping or rejecting any part of it, you are utterly and completely free.

So my advice is: get to know your grasping and rejecting nature. Start watching your behavior from that perspective, and notice the impact that grasping and rejecting has on your experience of your life and your marriage.

You'll NEVER change her. I know that you probably know that intellectually, but given what's going on with you, I can see you don't have it internalized yet. I'm only just starting to really GET that myself, having been married 10 years. You really can't ever, ever, EVER change anybody. So feel free to quit trying.

What you CAN do is master your reactions to things. It starts by being very mindful of exactly what your reactions are, what you grasp, what you reject, what it feels like and looks like and smells like when you do it. Once you get very familiar with your reactional mechanism, you can start to dismantle it.

You know we all have a thing called an "internal monologue". A voice in our heads that offers a running commentary on everything around us at all times, and never, ever shuts up, even for a second. Stop reading for a second and listen to it. It might say something like, "What little voice? I don't know what he's talking about." THAT'S what I'm talking about! Here's the thing: you think that voice in your head is YOU talking. It's not. You're not the one talking, you're the one listening.

Until you start looking at your own automated, scripted responses to things, you're a slave. You don't have thoughts and feelings, your thoughts and feelings have you. The good news is, you're bigger than that.

ScottKuma

Ratbastid:

While I agree that the enlightened view of "live in the moment" is certainly a lofty and laudable goal, nobody is actually able to do that!

You're postulating that I'm trying to change her....and I suppose to some extent that's true. However, that trivializes the fact that her actions HURT me.

With what you're saying, if someone comes up to me and punches me in the face, I'm to blissfully ignore that pain and not attempt to defend myself or seek justice against the perpetrator?

After all, doing either of the other actions would be to exhibit the grasping/rejecting behaviour that you abhor.

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ratbastid

I didn't say that. I also didn't say I "abhor" that behavior--that would be me "rejecting" the behavior. It simply is. We all do it very, very frequently (maybe not literally ALL the time, but damn close), and it's very human and normal and fine, and nobody's "wrong" for coming from there. And it's the source of all pain, sorrow, and suffering in life. So if you could get some mastery over it, that would be a Good Thing.

I'm offering an alternative place to look from, that's all. Maybe it's not her actions that hurt you. Maybe what hurts you is your thoughts and feelings about her actions. And if so, you've got to ask yourself: whose thoughts and feelings are those?

Please don't extrapolate to punches in the face, because I'm not talking about that. Also please don't feel judged by what I wrote. I really only partially wrote it for you, though I do see application of it to your situation. Hell, ignore it completely if you prefer.

I know that from where you are, it seems impossible that you could just be with all of how she is and isn't, and have that all be fine. I know that because I've very recently BEEN where you are. The situation was different, but the emotional quality was identical. It wasn't until I started to own myself as the source of the emotions that I started to get some freedom, and it wasn't until I got some freedom that I had the ability to alter the situation.

dman2

Wow. That's tough. I think honestly that this happens in more than most people realize. A lot of couples hit that 5 year dry spell. It sounds like you are hitting more than a dry spell. It's more like a drought.

My wife and I have been married for just over 6 years. She is expecting our second son any day now. She is obviously going thru some emotional ups and downs since she has been pregnant. I understand that. Luckily, I have not had to deal with the kinds of things you are facing.

A good friend of my wife's deals with much the same thing that you two are going thru. The wife rarely likes to have sex. In their case though, I don't think that the husband is showing her much reason to. She takes an anti depressant which seems to help some. My brother's second wife also takes anti depressants. He said she tried getting off of them for a while and she got real moody and never wanted to have sex. I am not saying that drugs are the answer, but they may help the problem. My wife has refused to take any type of anti depressant because she does not want to be dependant on any drugs to make her feel normal. I can see her point, but in your case if it changed your sex life, it may be worth it.

Is she easily angered or upset? Do you have a good relationship outside of the sexaul? If it is strictly sexual, I may suggest sexual counseling. It does not sound like you have a problem with lust or anything since you said you feel ashamed when you masturbate. This is usually what fuels the fire in many relationships. The husband usually resorts to lust or even the worst case cenario, adultery. DO NOT allow yourself to get to the point of cheating on your wife. IT IS NEVER WORTH IT. Rather than trying to fix the problem by going outside the marriage, try fixing what you do have. You have spent 5 years building your relationship. Why mess it all up by cheating? Trust me, you will never ever live it down. I made the mistake of cheating on my wife before we were even married and she still remembers. At least she is now to the point where she doesn't hold it over my head any longer.

Try to find a couple that is going thru a similar circumstance. I bet if you started talking more with some of the people you know, you would realize that there some of those people either are or have gone thru similar situations or know someone who has. Try to stay away from those who have done the wrong thing and went outside of the marriage bed and ended in divorce. They should be a good example of what not to do.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Hang in there. There are a lot of people here to support you.

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ScottKuma

dman:

Thanks for replying.

I'm doing my best not to allow myself to do anything STUPID. I don't drink, I don't otherwise impair my judgement, so I should be OK. I also don't let myself get into situations where stupid things could happen. Add that to the fact that I'm an overweight 30-something computer guy...and I should be OK.

Outside of the whole current thing, our relationship has always been strong. She's always been quiet, much more so than myself. One thing that's bothering me is that she is getting MORE quiet. I think there are things right now that are affecting her deeply - this whole Evan thing was completely unexpected, and she's starting to let the stress/strain show. I'm worried that it could snowball. Yesterday I (gently) suggested that we find someone for her to talk to, and she did a very Diane-like thing....fell silent & didn't talk to me for most of the rest of the night. I'm not sure if that means she's thinking about it, or so mad at me for suggesting it that she gave me the silent treatment.

The LAST thing I want to do is to get a divorce; both from the standpoint of the fact that I love her deeply (I'm hurt/confused right now, but that doesn't change the fact that I love her), and because I would hate myself for piling the troubles on. She's got enough to cope with between Evan's care, going down to the hospital, and everything else.

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Poppinjay

One thing that would probably help is to write off the hurt. Sometimes those things that scratch and claw at us are the things we cling to most tightly because we don't know any other way. So, forget any notion that she is hurting you, intentionally or otherwise. I know it seems absurd to be told, "don't be hurt", but once you figure that out, you'll be able to work much more constructively on other problems.

Just because she's standoffish about counseling doesn't mean you need to be. You can go on your own. It won't be the solution you're looking for right now, but why not let a professional hear your concerns and your worries?

Your wife is probably drag ass tired, and she may be depressed. There's no sex while she's in that state. Short of smashing some prozac into her oatmeal, you can't do anything about that until she lets you. She's not doing anything to hurt you, she's doing what her brains tell her to do to survive.

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Daniel_

I went through this with my Xwife.

She stopped wanting, I stopped asking, she went elsewhere, we got a divorce, we both cracked up, we both got counselling, I got engaged to a different woman, XW moved in with her new man.

We're all happy now.

Wouldn't recommend it, but it came about because we were unable to communicate well, and I now realise we were never able to, but it took 15years togeter to fully realise that.

As ratbastid says (i think) you can't make change go away, and sometimes embracing change that seems at face value to be painful can lead to a better future.

For myself I am now calmer, happier, and nicer (i'm told) than I've been for decades.

Here's my mantra:

There are two types of problems in the world: things you can fix - so fix them and quit bitchin', and things you can't fix - so let them be, and quit bitchin'.

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Ustwo

Just a quicky since I don't have much time.

Mrs Ustwo had a baby last October. She was basicly asexual from then until about April. No interest at all, any sex was just to please me. It wasn't until about May that she was back to normal.

Is she breast feeding? It wasn't until my wife cut down that her sex drive started to return. Right now her body is still stressed, her hormones are stressed, and shes stressed with a child who has problems.

Before you give up, give it more time. For about 17 months I had less sex with her then I did at any time for the last 14 years. I couldn't tell you how many times it was, but it wasn't very often. Yea it sucked, but its part of life.

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raeanna74

Other's have mentioned the post-partum depression possibility as well as couples counseling and such. I will second encouraging those things. I'm not completely sure how you could approach it though. You could possibly set an appointment with her Dr, ask your wife to come with, and bring up the sexual issue. This may not be their expertise but our family practitioners that we personal deal with have dealt with issues for us ina few aspects. Mostly from a physical point of view but since your wife's lack of libido seems to correspond with physical changes or stress on her body it's likely there is a physical connection. It would at least get the ball rolling for her.

Another tact to take came to mind. I'm not entirely sure how much it would help but here's my experience. I was at a point once when hubby wanted sex constantly, asked for it daily, and I had no desire for it. He also was very remote emotionally and absent often. I really focused on trying to change him for several months. Finally I came to the point where I decided several things. 1. I'm not leaving. 2. I'm ignoring his behavior. 3. I'm going to love him anyway.
I can control my behavior and response to him. I began doing things for him, giving him touches when I walked by, hugs when he got home. Doing LOTS of little things to show him that I loved him. All the while I still felt hurt and unloving but I put on the show. Funny thing about it is that I began to realy FEEL like I loved him. He began showing me love in some ways. Pretty soon before I knew I I was ENJOYING sex with him. I dunno for sure if he noticed what I was doing or if he just started responding. Eventually though he wasn't as resentful of me and I was able to sit down and tell him how much I was hurting. At that point he seemed surprised that I was hurt so much. I'm not why it was a suprise. I think my resentment had showed before but once I was being 'loving' and then expressed hurt - I think he realized it was real and not just percieved on my part. What I do know is that while I allowed my hurt and resentment to fester it created a wedge between us. All I changed was my outward actions and eventually the hurt went away. The best part was we were able to reconciled.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can determine for yourself that you will feel love and act loving. Ignore any rejection that you recieve. If she shrugs you off when you try to give her a backrub just stop and tell yourself - I did my part. Walk away and do something busy to distract yourself. I'm not sure how well this will work. You can make a choice not to allow yourself to feel hurt. Remind yourself that somethign is wrong and it's not you. Pity her in that she's afraid to get help and not enjoying a loving relationship.

There's my 2 cents worth - hope it was worth 2 cents at least.

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abaya

Raeanna, your post resounds on a lot of different points for me. Thank you for sharing.

I think what your advice boils down to is personal responsibility. Not feeling guilty for someone else's assumptions (unless they were truly hurt by a specific behavior of yours, which I'm not sure is what's happening with ScottKuma), and essentially forcing yourself to express love to someone, because the only other option to is harden inside and decide to stop loving them.

I think that love, even when it's forced, can actually transform both people, even when it's only initiated by one person (as you explained, Raeanna). If you feel hurt but try hard to love anyway, it changes you and makes you truly love again; if you are the one being loved, it makes you realize what you were doing wrong and why the other person felt so hurt, and motivates you to change your behavior. At least, I often feel this way with ktspktsp... it's what makes our relationship so alive. We are constantly renegotiating and changing to better love the other person.

ScottKuma, it's hard to say whether this is your case or not, since it really sounds like you've tried your damndest to be patient and she's still not able to receive your attention and love (or she's receiving it in the wrong way). Obviously you are both in pain. But since you haven't gotten to the last straw yet, I say give it another go, try to express your love to her in as many different ways as possible, be satisfied with the cuddling and let her initiate the sex. And communicate as much as possible, even if she doesn't respond. In the end, if you do get to the last resort of divorce, there is no blame on you if you communicated as earnestly and clearly as possible.

/dos centavos

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Poppinjay

Touching is important. Even if everything else is on hold, touching is nice, cuddling is good.

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analog

Depression kills libido in pretty much most people. Post-partum also brings with it the hormonal changes that occur after pregnancy... the body is adjusting back to "normal"- but not completely, because it's still in "make milk for baby" mode. It sounds like she really has 2 or 3 different issues right now that contribute to lack of sex drive. Post-partum, general hormone changes causing unrest in her body and mind, and worry about the child's medical condition. She's got a full plate, from what you're saying.

As others have recommended, get some couples' counseling. Go with your wife to the OB/GYN next time, and bring it up with the doctor. They will almost definitely have someone to recommend. The solidarity will also help your wife, because she will most likely feel better that you're showing active concern and interest in her well-being (physical and mental), and that you're there to help her through it. Post-partum is nothing to feel guilty or ashamed about, and there are certainly options for help out there.

You may have said, "I want to help" 7 times already, but sometimes it takes 8 times for it to register. Or 10... or 15. The point is. unless you get yelled at for offering, you almost can't verbalise your support too much. We know you're concerned... make sure SHE knows, too. Oh, and leave sex out of the equation. It will be the last thing to straighten out. Do yourself a favor and don't even mention it unless you have to. Say the word sex, and the whole thing will seem like it's about sex to her, even though it's a small component (i'm not generalizing females, i'm going by what he's said about her thus far).

Good luck, man.

pig

ScottKuma,

The only thing I think I can even possibly add to the advice already given is to encourage you to reread what the ratbuddhist wrote; he's not attacking you, but I think that path might help you to deal with your emotions in a way that brings you some contentment. It's the same sentiment that trickles down in most of the other advice - I think it one of the best posts I've read here in a while. I would also reiterate that it sounds like y'all could really use some couples counseling; but if this won't happen then I would encourage you to either seek your own or else seek other forms of outside knowledge to help you deal with the situation. Perhaps seeing you seek outside input, in a non confrontational manner might encourage her to want to open up. I think it's going to come down to communication at some point; I think the only thing you can do in the meantime is be supportive and wait. Best of luck.

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tecoyah

Seriously...seek councelling. I was actually in a like situation many years ago, and unless you wish to do as we did (divorce)....you need to get her involved in the fix of your marriage. If you truly love her as you say you do, then confront her with these issues and start to repair them. Otherwise you will become more and more bitter, and there will come a point of no return.

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ScottKuma

I hope my response to ratbastid didn't come across that I thought he was attacking me. I certainly don't think that! I appreciate all the advice that anyone is offering...and while I can see the truth in what he says, it's just a bit too...zen [?] for how I'm feeling right now.

I agree with the couples' counseling. I'm trying to find 1) time to do this, as I travel 60% of work days, and 2) a way to get her to agree to this.

Communication is the key, I certainly do see that. She doesn't communicate well with ANYONE. I don't communicate well with HER when we're in conflict. And I HATE to see her cry. HATE HATE HATE.

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frogza

Went through a similar episode with my wife, it lasted 9 months. She was stressed about a varietty of things and no matter what I did or said she was not interested in any intimacy at all. One night we were hanging out with another couple and as a joke the wife told her husband that for some silly remark he had made he was down to once a month from once a week and if he didn't watch it he'd be down to once a year. My wife laughed and said something to the effect that for us it would be more like 2 or 3 times a week. I was surprised but didn't say anything then.
Later that evening after our friends had left I asked her how often she would estimate that we had sex, she repeated the 2 to 3 times a week line. I responded that it had been about nine months and she was shocked, she didn't believe me but finally after some talking and she realized that I was right. She had been so stressed that she didn't even realize how long it had been. I'm happy to say that the dry spell ended the next night.
Does your wife know how long it's been? I certainly hope that things work out for you.

ScottKuma

Frogza:

THanks for the reply. Yeah, she knows how long it's been. When she & I talked about it about a week ago, she knew...and she apoligized...and she cried.

But still no action since.


To eveyone else who replied:

Checking to see what kind of support my health insurance provides for marital counseling. If there's none, we simply can't afford it. We are already in deep trouble with our son's medical bills, our two POS cars that keep breaking down, our 4 year old's preschool bills, etc.

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raveneye

Scott, you might want to do a little research, like check out Helen Kaplan's last book. At least you'll get a detailed view into the case histories of other couples, and an idea what the causes and successful treatments have been for them.

I haven't read Kaplan's book myself, but it sounds good from this review I found in Archives of Sexual Behavior. There are also some references at the end that might be worth checking out.