StephenSa

While this mightseem more suited for the Sexuality forum it's really about emotional love and relationship issues so I put it here. Feel free to move if it is inappropriate. I recently had a disscussion with my wife that has her questioning my love for her and our continued life together. For a while we have had very little sex life. To be honest I've never had a huge sex drive but for the past several months it has been nil. At first it was all me. I'd gained a bit of weight and didn't feel very good about myself, I'd been drinking too much, stress from work, lack of spontenaity due to my stepdaughter being in the house, just lots of things that put our sex life in the pooper. My wife felt the issue was strictly her weight. For months she has made disparaging comments about herself and blaming our lack of sex strictly on that issue even though I explained what my reasons were. For months now I've heard her go on and on about her weight. I suppose as a response to my lack of intimate attention she started eating more and putting on extra pounds. As this has continued, yes, her weight now is a factor in the sex thing. Since she has been going on about it for months and now it is a factor I decided we should sit down and rationally discuss the issue. We addressed my drinking, the stepdaughter, stress, and came up with solutions. THEN we got to weight/sex. Not such a good outcome. I told her that while it wasn't an issue before, her weight had gotten to the point that yes, it bothered me and made it harder for me to be sexually attracted to her. She then burst into tears and ran from the room. A week later when she finally decided to speak to me again she said that her weight shouldn't be an issue. She said that if I truly loved her it wouldn't matter and that my feelings for her must be shallow. She said I couldn't possibly care for her the way she cares for me and she wished I had said something before we got married. She said she doesn't see how we can get pass this. Woof, I guess I screwed up. I really don't think I did anything wrong. I saw a problem and enacted rational communication to resolve it. I was going to suggest we try special "fantasy nights" and schedule romantic outings for just the two of us to spice things up. As for the weight I was going to suggest we throw all the bad food out and start a program TOGETHER to be healthier, more fit, and frankly sexier. Never got to that point. It ended with "You don't love me, we might as well split up." So, my question(s) is this: Am I wrong to want the thinner wife I married? Am I wrong to try to rationally address an issue that was negatively effecting our marriage? I love my wife with all my heart but yes, the amount of weight she has put on is a turn off. Does that make me a bad husband or bad person in general? And finally, is sex more important than genuine deep emotional love in a marriage or should that deep emotion overide any physical hangups one partner have about the other? I know thats a lot to ask but I'm a little scared and confused so I could use a little help.

__________________
Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

veruca

as a woman, I will do my best to answer your questions.
No, I don't think you are a bad person for wanting your thin sexy wife back, I bet SHE wants her old self back too. but, you are not the person you were before either..and she still loves you and wants to make love to you. So, how hurtful do you think it is to her, when she already hates herself and may not find YOU as attractive as before, but she loves you enough to look past it....but you can't do the same for her.
There is no easy way to go about a weight discussion. both my husband and I have gained a lot of weight..together. And we too had to have the discussion that things need to change, and it is not a comfortable discussion to have.
I do feel that in your marriage, your love for that person should override physical disgust and weight gain should never lead to divorce. But, she needs to be accepting and understanding of your viewpoint. I see that you made the effort to show her that you aren't happy with you either, and that you want to work on it together.
Give it time..show her in any way you can that you love her and want to be with her.

__________________
How you turned my world, you precious thing
You starve and near exhaust me
Everything I've done, I've done for you
I move the stars for no one

liquidlight

Dude, you screwed up.

I wouldn't say that you're wrong to want those things, but you attempted to apply a rational thought process to a highly emotional topic, there's no way that could have ended well.

Since you really do love this women, apologize, don't tell her that it's a turn off, tell her that you're worried about your health and hers and would like to start that program, if you care about her like I'm assuming you do that's true as well. Admit that you were being shallow and stay calm when you talk to her, I would be willing to bet that she was already hypersensitive to her weight and it's going to be difficult to make her look at it rationally, if that's even possible.

Take her on one of those romantic nights out, just the two of you, and see what happens. I'd say the two of you have some serious communicating to do.

__________________
Halfway to hell and picking up speed.

maleficent

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=48270

This is not really a new issue for you two... It's a very sensitive topic for both of you, and you need to find a way to come to a happy medium. I'd say that this is pretty normal for a first year of marriage.

How much weigh has she gained in a year that you went from thinking she looks great to being turned off by her...

__________________

ngdawg

I know that, as a former heavyweight, the last thing I wanted was to be seen as desirable. I knew I was fat and out of shape and rightly (in my mind) knew I was ugly.
You were honest but we don't hear what is truly being said most times. Ask her what she heard and start from there...apologize, then make honest attempts at getting back on track. Romantic gestures are fine but they have to be done because it's what you want, not to score points.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

ShaniFaye

this being a message board Im sure this is gonna come out soundy slightly more bitch than it would sound were I talking directly to you....

you married someone and expect them to stay the same shape/size they were when you married them? Mistake #1

you basically told her you are only attracted to her looks, via telling her that her weight turned you off. Mistake #2


Im really not surprised she reacted the way she did, granted Im not a skinny girl now, and my weight has been up and down since I met dave (not drastically but 10 pounds either way) but at least I know that he loves ME, (yes he's attracted to me...he hates skinny chicks) but I know that if by some miracle I lost 30 pounds he wouldnt think Im not attractive because I got skinnier and that our sex life would still be the same. I honestly have no advice on what you should do, because in her shoes I'd be pretty darn upset and have some major hurt feelings.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Biscuit Buns

You need a lesson in tact. Honesty can be a beautiful thing that gets a lot accomplished if you know how and when to say what you're trying to say. Without any tact, you're being counterproductive. If you MUST get the issue taken care of while grouping all of your problems together for one big jam session, take an indirect approach. We women (and a lot of men!) tend to base a lot of our value on our appearance. We don't TRY to do this, it's just been bashed into us in and from various forms. Talk about yourself and how you'd like to get yourself into better shape. After you're finished talking about what needs work on your end, ask her if she'd care to join. If she doesn't, it'll probably happen anyway if you're serious about getting yourself back on track. Dump the crap food from the house and well, if it's not there, she's going to have to go out of her way to eat it. If you start preparing healthier meals, chances are, she'll not go out of her way to prepare another entire meal just for herself. Eventually, she may join you in activity if that's something you find yourself doing. Someone has to take the lead - why not you? A marriage is about a little give and take. Teamwork. Work TOGETHER, not against each other.

Run, man, to apologize and hash this out. Take a different approach and make her feel better.

__________________
A hard man is good to find. ~Mae West

Seeker

I suggest you try to get back to this. You don't feel good about yourself, and from her reaction, neither does she. This shows me that you love her and care for her very much.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Sweetpea

First, tell her you're sorry. that is the absolute first thing to do. Even though i don't think what you said was particulary your fault, it will help your wife open up to you again.

I would like to say Sexual attraction is not about LOVE . . .

My husband does not have sex with me because he "loves" me . . . nor do i need it for validation that he cares about me, some people use sex as validation that their partner loves them.
People need to learn to seperate sex and love.

Loving someone and your sex life together are related but two different things.
I'm a woman and I GET that, some women don't, it's too emotional for them.

I see nothing wrong with you Feeling that you are less attracted to her because of the weight, that doesn't make you a bad person, you cannot 'make' yourself atracted to someone when you aren't, no matter how much love is involved, LOVE and SEX = two different things IMHO . . . But you're going to have to be very careful when addressing this with your wife, as i am sure she has allot of emotions wrapped around her weight and self esteem, and as you noted, she was doing emotional eating during the period of time where there wasn't any sex for other reasons.

Communicate, communicate.

People can be very irrational when it comes to addressing their weight . . . it's very emotional.

I had the reverse situation.

My husband whom i love dearly had gained some weight and wasn't working out like he used to. I just told him straight up that i was feeling less attracted to him sexually, becuase that is how i was honestly feeling. He handled it well, said he knew full well and didn't feel very good about himself either and has since started working out and lost the extra weight. But did i love him any less?? No way. I was just as devoted and loving, just not as sexual when he was at a heavier weight . . . i couldn't help it, i just wasn't as attracted.

does your wife seem depressed? If she is using food to make herself feel better . . . maybe getting to the bottom of what's happening will help. Has she thought about seeking therapy, not about her weight, but about what's bothering her??

at any rate . . . talk, talk, talk. Reconnect with her . . . and if she cries when you try to talk about things that are bothering her. . . write it out in a note and give it to her to read alone and then come back later and talk about how what you wrote made her feel.

Sweet Pea

__________________
Having a Pet Will Change Your Life!
Looking for a great pet?! Click Here!
"I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

StephenSa

Well heck! I just typed out a long well tought out reply and my damn computer crashes and I've got to start over! GRRRRRR!
Anyhoo, thanks for the replies and advice. As Maleficent pointed out this isn't the first time my wife and I have crossed the weight issue. This time though she is hurt quite deeply and for this I am truly sorry. I guess the difference is that this time the weight was connected to sexual attraction where before it wasn't. My wife apparantly connects sexual intimacy to love much more than I could have imagined. As for me the two, while connected are very different issues with emotional love being far more important than sex. As I said, I don't have a big sex drive. Before I met my wife I went for almost eight years without sex and was fine with it. It just seemed like more trouble than it was worth. That being said I need a LOT of stimulation to get me in the mood. Since her weight gain my wife doesn't wear sexy lingerie, won't take romantic baths with me, and makes no effort to "light my fire." I understand this. She doesn't feel good about her body so she hides it and she doesn't initiate sex for fear of her sexless doofus husband shooting her down. I take responsibility for the downward spiral of our sex life. Still though, she was aware before we got married that my sex drive was tiny compared to hers and that physical appearance was a big deal with me. We talked about it often. When we met I worked out obsessively and we've been making plans for me to change careers and go into the health and fitness field so she knows my take on this. She frequently (daily) over the past few months commented on her weight and its connection to our lack of sex. I really thought she was ready to sit down, talk about it and work toward making our relationship better. I suppose I did accomplish something in that I now understand better how she views sex and how much she ties that in with love. I never realized that because to me sex just isn't a big deal. I love her because of who she is, her mind, her thoughts, her kindness, her humour and her wonderful smile. That to me is love. Sex I see as physical and yes, when the physical package changes sex for me changes as well. If her mind and heart suddenly changed, if she suddenly became a regimented, grim, humorless harpie nobody would would question if my feelings changed for her but for some reason to have physical issues ( which don't change my love for her) makes one a bad person. I love my wife dearly. Nothing has changed with that. The weight issue in our sex life was only a part of the problem and unfortunately the manner in which I chose to address it has only made things worse. I've apologized, apologized again, and further yet apologized. She is just in a very bad place right now and I'd gnaw my right arm off to fix it. I'm hoping with time it will get better but I fear that will be a large amount of time. If it goes on much longer I might suggest we try counseling to hash it all out. Thanks again for the advice and support.

__________________
Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

chickentribs

StephanSa, You did nothing wrong in being honest with your wife and the courage it took for you stand firm and tell the truth is pretty amazing. It was a talk you both agreed to that was necessary, and answering her questions with anything less than the truth would have been unfair to both of you. Of course her wieght is a sensitive topic, but not lying to her when you both knew the truth was incredibly important. She didn't take your credibility away from you and that trust will be key for both of you as you work through this.

Her running from the room and not speaking to you for a week and then finally insisting you don't love her and could never love her like she loves you is textbook maniac depressive.

There are many ways for a person to be controlling, but The Victim is especially tough because you will never be allowed to even fight. One cross word and she has already given herself permission to leave the room and punish you with no communication.

I am not a doctor but it is very important that the two of you get in front of a counslor soon. The rules have been set and you need an authority figure with experience in clinical depression and probably medication to get her out of the world she has created. You can't do it alone and from the sounds of your previous post this has been going on a while. I apologize if I am wrong or out of line, but I have familiarity with this path and it is better to be safe than sorry. IM me if you would like to talk...

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

StephenSa

I dunno, I came home tonight and she still treats me like a ghost. I can't go back on what I said because I was being honest and she knows it. Any backtracking would be a lie, although what I said to what she heard/felt are two different things. I can't even address it with her as she won't talk to me. I didn't cheat on her, I didn't burn down the house, I didn't squander the family savings. I just tried to address a problem she had made it quite aware we had. I'm not a bad guy. I maybe approached the issue poorly but much like Popeye "I ams what I ams". Counseling seems in our future which isn't such a bad thing. If for nothing else then to have a referee. It's late and I have to sleep. Thanks again for everyone. BTW I'm not ignoring your input Chickentribs but its late and again, sleep calls. Also, Sweetpea, I really wish you were a friend of my wife. I could use a local with my train of thought. I find your attitude much like my own. Shanifaye, if you are still monitoring good to get that side of things too. To hear that opinion without emotional connection involved has much worth. I have SO MUCH to learn about women. Lets face it, I need all the help I can get. Gonna be with my wife forever though. This is just bump in the road. She is the most fantastic woman I've ever met and together we can fix this. Thanks again for the replies. 'Night all......

__________________
Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

tecoyah

That statement right there defines. I am of the opinion you are doing what needs to be done, and while the "Way" you approached this may have been lacking somewhat, the issue needed to be addressed. If you intend to spend your life with someone, Both parties should work towards happiness, even knowing it will come and go. I would hope she works out the obvious self esteem issues she carries, allowing for honest discussion....but you need to understand this may very well take some time.
I would also recommend in the future, you spend more time in thought as to the personality of your chosen mate and use the information to smooth out an approach before acting. I have found reflection of possible reaction to my action, saves an enormous amount of unneeded grief. And makes my life so much easier.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

hrandani

I completely disagree with you saying that she's textbook manic depressive chickentribs, she's just showing some emotion about some signifigant events in her life.

StephenSa I think meant well, but it's all in how you phrase it, and he screwed up a little there. Sure, there may be issues in the wife's mind, but nothing he said and meant was bad, and he's not a bad person based on what he's said so far.

Personally I think he should have just suggested that they both work on a diet / exercise plan together because it's "healthier" not because his wife put on weight. If he really wanted to go for the gold star he should have said that because HE put on weight he would appreciate it if his wife would follow his plan to encourage HIM to lose weight.

I've tried the rational route before on various occasions with all sorts of women, and it just never works, regardless of how intelligent they are. Most men, too, but me being a geek my friends seem to understand...

Shanifaye, I agree that when you marry someone it's for richer or for poorer, but I'm with sweetpea, that sexuality and love are the venn diagram of marriage.

ShaniFaye

I guess Im a freak then, because the way dave looks is not what arouses me, in fact I can honestly 100% say that a man's physical appearance has never ever in my life been something that made me attracted to them sexually. If he gained or lost weight my attraction to him would be no less than it is now.

I guess its the same as if I was blind and couldnt see him at all.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

alec

well, i dont think you were wrong for telling her what you thought. the only thing i think is a bit ironic is you mentioned you are a little bit overweight and that you brought up her weight problem. are you in the same... weight class as her? you could have probably approached it better -- ie saying you both should lose weight, eat healthier, watch what you eat, more exercise, etc. instead of going straight for the jugular and saying she was overweight. but regardless, putting the world into glossy terms to convience someone's inability to deal with the truth shouldn't be your bag, that's Dr. Phil's

Cimarron29414

You value physical attibutes. You value them on yourself and on others. You chose to marry someone that does not possess some of the qualities that are important to you. She values frequent sex. She chose to marry someone that does not possess some of the qualities that are important to her.

Eventually, in order to have a successful marriage, you will both have to compromise on this issue. You will have to let some of the physical stuff go and she will have to work a bit to improve her health. Consequently, you will have to improve your sex drive and interactions with her, and she will have to manage her expectations regarding frequency. However, you are both a LONG way off from that, so let's start from where we are...

She may need time to get over what you said, even though I believe you meant it without malice. She spent a year saying, "You don't want to have sex with me because I'm fat, just admit it!?!?" She was picking a fight with the question - she phrased the question in a way to find fault in you, rather than to find room for improvement in her own life. You were dishonest with her for a year and you withheld information from her that would allow her to improve her marriage - and that was wrong. So, it is pretty clear that the two of you have a long way to go in learning to communicate with one another. This comes with experience and is person-to-person specific. When you have been married 3 years instead of 1, it will be much better - it just takes time.

So, as far as "repair tactics": I would stop apologizing and reaching out. It is serving only to magnify the perceived transgression. I would remain kind and courteous. I would mention occasionally that you miss her, but that's all. I would stay out of her way and allow her to return to the bargaining table when she is ready. Once there, you should focus solely on ground rules for communication.

Rules should include:
"When this occurred, I felt like ....."
"Thanks for sharing. What I heard from you just now was.....is that correct?"
"I feel as if I am becoming upset, I think we should take a break from this for a while."
etc.

Secondly, you should definitely address lifestyle issues. It sounds to me as if you both suffer from depression. Your food choices will feed this depression - high fat, high sugar, high caffeine, high alcohol will drain the body and soul. You both seem to recognize your unhealthy lifestyles, so fix things. However, each of you must make that commitment to yourselves, rather than to each other. You will fail if you do it "for" someone else.

Finally, you need to learn to become each other's best friends. Clearly, you are not. This comes from truly understand each other's hurts, worries, and triumphs. You need to talk about your life in a way that you AND she understand why you are wired the way you are regarding sex and body image. She needs to do the same thing for you.

You need to create NEW hobbies together that neither of you tried. Dancing, walking, cooking classes, musical instruments. You need to learn some new things together, rather than trying to bring her into your hobbies or vice versa.

You need to put your marriage in front of the children - a child will grow up better when a marriage is strong. A strong marriage can not be achieved if children are put ahead of the marriage. Others will argue with me on this point, but I believe many marriages are failing because people allow their children to run the household.

Sorry, for the thesis - I will stop now.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

guthmund

Not at all a "freak."

The way someone looks may get me in the door in the first place, but it's the soul not the body that keeps me coming back for more.

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

lindseylatch

I think in general women see sex as more emotional than men. Women are more attracted to the person, and men to the body. Not that it's always the case, or that men aren't attracted to the person, but in general the emphasis for them seems to be on the body.

For women, arousal is actually a part of the emotional part of the brain (from a Brain and Behavior class i had). For men, it can be purely a reflex (as I'm sure many a teenager has discovered). You can be PARALYZED, and still get an erection. So, for us ladies, emotions are a BIG part of sex, so we assume it is for guys too. But that's obviously not always the case.

When I get to know a guy, the better a person he is the more attractive he gets, and the worse a person he is, the uglier he gets. A guy could be model hot, and if he's an ass, I wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole.That doesn't seem to really be the case with men: a chick is hot if she's hot. She can be a total bitch and he'd still "do her." He might not stay till breakfast, but he's got no problem having sex with her.

Disclaimer: These are broad generalizations. As such, they're not applicable across the board, and I would say particularly here, from what i've read.

Now, on another note. I don't think you fucked up that bad. I think you did what any guy would do: you agreed with your wife. Unfortunately, that's not what she wanted. I would definitely do couseling, individual and couple. She probably has some body issues that she could use some help with.

Another thing is, maybe it wasn't the weight that turned you off, but HER obsession with it? I mean, if she's ALWAYS saying how fat and ugly she is, then that's not very attractive. If she ignored her weight and acted sexy (wearing sexy clothes and taking baths with you) it might never have become an issue. Just a thought.

__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

StephenSa

Been out of town for the weekend so sorry for late reply. Part of the problem with the wife has been her own attitude about her body and how that has bled over into her general mood. It's hard to get in the mood for someone that is consistantly mopey and down if not outright hostile. Still I know my lack of sexual interest caused a lot of that and my plan was and is to correct that portion of the problem. My lack of interest only exacerbated my wife's issues to the point that we were stagnating and something had to be done. Even with all the misery its caused I still feel I was justified in saying something in that things had to change. Last night (after another week of barely acknowledging my existance) she said she wasn't mad at me anymore but was just sad and needed to just get out of her mood. I'd already decided to quit apologizing and trying to talk and just let her work it out. When she decides she wants to talk I'll listen and see where it goes. If she chooses to forget about it and not bring it back up then I'll keep my mouth shut and go about my business. I've discovered through this and past experiences that anything remotely negative or in contradiction to what she wants to believe will throw her into a dark, long depression well beyond anything I can comprehend. I'd suggest she see someone about her self-esteem issues and anger/depression problems but that would only get me another month in the dog-house and probably make her climb deeper inside herself. When she gets better I might gently suggest we go together for some sort of counseling but frankly the thought of her reaction to that scares the bejeesus out of me. I can't control her happiness. I can only try to help when she will let me and live my life as best I can. As for me, my gym is re-opening this week (finally!) and I will be working out and back into fight'in shape within eight weeks. I hope she sees the enthusiasm I throw into this and makes an effort to be healthier and more importantly happier. Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know if things change.

__________________
Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

Sage

Your wife sounds like she is battling a history of depression. You need to recognize this, and also realize that, while you are not solely responsible for her happiness, you are her HUSBAND and therefore have a responsibility for her well being. She needs help. You either love her enough to get her help NO MATTER WHAT, or you don't. If you don't love her enough to get her help, why are you married to her? She's not going to "get better" by herself, not if she's clinically depressed. Talk to a pastor/therapist/counselor alone and ask what your next course of action should be. If you love her you should help her, not shy away from something that you pretend to not understand.

__________________

Cereberus

While I think you're correct about the depression, I disagree that he can "get her help NO MATTER WHAT."

I watched a family member drink himself to death, and there wasn't a damn thing anyone, whether friend or family, could do about it. Some people refuse to allow themselves to be helped.

Yes, StephenSa screwed up. Who hasn't? Probably 90% of men have been asked the loaded question, "Am I faaaaaaaaaattt????" or its evil twin, "Do these pants make my butt look big?" You only have to answer one of those wrong a single time to spend about a month in the doghouse. Did I mention that there's no RIGHT answer to either one?

So my message is that you can't win. Sometimes women just aren't rational. Same is true with men, but there are some situations with women that are unescapable. Usually you get "forgiven" sooner or later, but they damn sure never forget.

StephenSa

Ok, my wife does not suffer from chronic clinical depression. She is depressed now because of body/self esteem issues and my clumsy attempt to improve our relationship. She, much like myself and many of us could probably benefit from a little therapy but mostly she is a happy fun person to be around or I would have never married her. When things go a bit south though she does take it quite hard and it really affects her. I don't "pretend" to not understand why she gets so upset. I accept that she does and I try to help but no, I really don't understand it. I don't stay mad or depressed for very long. Typically I get mad, throw a fit and an hour later I'm over it. At the least once I sleep and wake up I generally just let things go. I'm either too lazy or have too short of an attention span to be upset for very long. Maybe I've had so much bad shit happen in my life that most things just seem insignificant in comparison. I think I learned to let things go as a survival instinct as a kid in a very bad home. That's beside the point though. The issue is my wife and what I can do to make things better. For that I'm still going with my plan as stated in my last post. Last night I bought a really nice new bedroom bed set (comforter,pillow shams, sheets, all that jazz) and beautified the bedroom so she would have a comfortable pleasant environment. I do things like that all the time for her. She gets roses every week or two. I get her jewelry and pick up things for her I think she'd like. I cook her dinner pretty often, every Sunday and some week days too. I clean around the house. She is far from mistreated or ignored. The only area I really slipped up on was with the sexual intimacy and I'm trying to improve that. It will take time and patience on the part of both of us. It actually helps for me to post here. It lets me organize my thoughts, vent a little and get useful feedback. All the feedback is useful and helps me see the issue from other view points so once again thanks for the comments.

__________________
Thousands of Monkeys, all screaming at once. Pulling God's finger.

pinkie

In short, yes, it should.