Halx

And Abaya, I missed your post somehow. I left out the instances where victims are unable to account for their own actions. This is a prime example of rape. I was hoping someone would give me the benefit of the doubt if I forgot to mention every single possible instance in which rape can occur. My comments were made under the assumptions that both participants are in fully capable mental capacity.

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abaya

Yeah, that's pretty much what I did. I wasn't working as a stripper, but I was drunk out of my skull in New Orleans. Not to mention there were absolutely no witnesses (and my "acquaintances" surely didn't give a shit). All the evidence pointed to it being consensual, even though I never would have given consent. But the question remains, is it "rape" if the woman had no chance/ability to say yes OR no? And if no one was there to hear her say either word, how does it stand up in court?

I don't see it as a thread derailment... I think real-life examples are extremely relevant, given that this is mostly a discussion among men about how to define rape of a woman. Most of you are keeping this in the abstract. Bring it down to the reality level. What kind of call would you make in mine, or Sharon's situation? This is that part of the TFP where you say what you "really think," no holds barred.

EDIT: Missed your post, Hal... thanks for the addendum. I admit, it's a bit weird to hear someone calling my situation outright "rape." I've never used that word when talking about it, except in this thread. I have to say, though, that even though you assume that both people are in full mental capacity... I really doubt that is what happens in a LOT of rape cases (especially unreported ones). As a woman who did something that helped precipitate that consequence (e.g. I got totally drunk), I and maybe others find it difficult to point the finger entirely at the man. Not that it would have been proven, anyway.

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Gilda

Yes, it is.

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KnifeMissile

Sharon, you say that "it's a lot harder to produce evidence when the accusation is sexual" as if it supports how much rape laws can be abused when, in fact, the opposite is true. I don't know how things are in the UK but in the US of A you are innocent until proven guilty. That means that you can only be convicted of rape if actual evidence proves it. So, falsely accusing someone of rape ultimately does little good.

I've never understood why people think trials are a toss up. They are not. In the US, The odds of getting a conviction are stacked heavily against the state. Are things that different in the UK, Sharon?

abaya, maybe you didn't read (or understand) my earlier post but I assure you that sex without consent is, by definition, rape...

Tigerlily

People just need to Harden the fuck up...

stevie667

What if the bloke is some 6'6" muscle bound ox, and the girl a little petit 5' girly? I can think of many situations where people have gone into sex only wanting to because the other is putting pressure on them to do so.

Would you prefer it for that girl to try and physically resist that bloke? Granted its an extreme example, but being able is not always a luxury.


As to the post by KnifeMissile, we invented your legal system, innocent until proven guilty is the same over here. However, because our legal system sucks, the actual level of rape prosecutions compared to complaints is microscopic (single percentage figures).

Rape here is defined, paraphrased as 'pentration without consent', on any part of the body. Key part, without consent. With any law there will be abuses, and those people deserve to be punished. But i do believe that this type of law is better in the long run.

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Glory's Sun

This is bullshit and you know it. The idea of the justice system here is 'innocent until proven guilty'. It's a fallacy. People will always place some sort of guilt association with the defendant. That's just human nature. There are plenty of men in jail for rape that never committed the act. There are many more who did. The system isn't always correct.


I don't know what state you are in, but around here in yee-haw land, convictions are more common than aquittals.

I don't think anyone here is advocating rape. I think we're merely stating that when we have a system that is abused already, a law like this could do nothing more than facilitate that abuse. Will it help? I'm sure it will in some instances, but it would be my speculation that it would end up doing more damage than people intended.

abaya

No, I got your earlier post, thanks.

But here's the thing. Obviously, sex without consent is rape. I get that. But in my case, the guy was drunk (he said), I was clearly drunk, and I was asking *him* to go back to his place... because I thought he was actually a friend of mine that I knew (I was that fucked up).

Basically, I was acting like I was sober (which happens when you are blacked out, apparently) and thus giving "consent," even though if I was REALLY sober, there's no way in hell I'd have gone home with that dude. It was like I was an utterly different person, both mentally and physically. Extremely surreal and disturbing.

So was I giving consent? My words and body were giving consent, though it was not my true "self" that was really speaking. Apparently, I said yes the whole time and enjoyed myself (again, his account, and my fuzzy memory from when I began to sober up). I thought I was having sex this friend of mine, not a stranger. How could that case have EVER stood up in court?

If I had accused that guy of rape, I'm sure someone would have thought that I was taking advantage of the situation, since by all accounts I would have appeared to be giving consent. Would that be abusing the system? I kind of think it would be.

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KnifeMissile

Tell me, why is it that my having sex with a 17 year old rape? I mean, she consented and she enjoyed it! Yet it's rape...

Normally, I'd let you come back to me with this 'cause I prefer that people think for themselves but, considering your responses to my posts (or lack, thereof), I'm sensing that you just don't get it so I'm going to spell it out for you.

It's rape because children are incapable of giving consent.

A sweet and sexy 17 year old was asking for sex and enjoyed it but it's still rape because she is incapable of giving consent.

You were raped because you were incapable of giving consent. In your own words, you were "that fucked up." Being stupidly drunk and being drugged are no different (alcohol is a drug, you know...). You were incapable of giving consent (as is the 17 year old) so any sex you had during that time is nonconsentual and, by definition, rape.

Now, you have no evidence that it was rape so going to trial is most likely futile. You probably don't even want to go to trial since they're far from fun. However, a lack of evidence (or charge) doesn't mean there's a lack of a crime. How many unsolved murders are there? The victims were still killed, though...


I "know it?" "It's just human nature?" Please, what's with the crappy rhetoric? What about your nature? In order to convict, you have to have twelve people unanimously agree upon the defendant's guilt. How many jurors hate "the system" and think it's as unfair as you do? How many of them think the government is corrupt? It only takes one...

Go tell O.J. Simpson about "human nature..."

If your state has a lot of convictions, surely it's because they have a lot of evidence. I know laws differ from state to state but I'm pretty sure that every state must make a prima facie case before proceeding to trial. That means that you can't just go to trial and hope for the best. You have to be able to prove your case before going to trial. This is why not every complaint goes to court...

I don't think the law is nearly as abused as people like to think and I don't see how a little clarification hurts, here...

Glory's Sun

Actually, no it wouldn't be rape unless your state has their AOC set at 18.

Look, we read and hear lawyers (prosecution and defense) talk about the way the system all the time. They talk about the fact that there is a guilt association with defendants. Jurors will often think "why would he even be here if he isn't guilty". I think the problem lies in the fact that most people <b>DON't</b> think the system is faulty.. not that too many people think the system is faulty.

In this state, there isn't necessarily alot of evidence. Hell, you can take a look at the Duke Rape Case as a prime example. It's not just here that it happens. Girl cries rape, man goes to trial, girl cries, man gets a fat one in prison for the next 25 years.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. Don't take it that way. Rape does happen and is very real and very horrific. However, I just think that the laws are abused and can be done so easily. To put faith in the system blindly and say that it works is just silly. A first appearance or "prima facie" case doesn't really hold much water. In this state your first appearance is to simply plead your status and then hear your bail. Then your probable cause hearing presents some evidence by both sides. More often than not (I have lawyer friends) the probable cause doesn't really mean shit. The judge will see a probable cause as that is a pretty broad term. Then it goes to trial. So basically, what I'm saying is that if you want to hold faith that a prima facie case will be your saving grace should you get into trouble, you should make sure you have plenty of vacation time stored up at work.

KnifeMissile

Or... yes, it would be if your age of consent is 18. I'm getting the sense you don't want to see my side of it and just want to plead your case. I think this because your quote makes it sound as if what I said is simply not true unless this one condition is met. It happens to be a common age of consent and is often true. Regardless, the point has been lost in your response. Was this deliberate? Do you not want people to see my point?

Whatever age of consent is in your state, in my opinion, it's pretty high and, yet, they are incapable of giving consent. That's the essense of rape: consent. abaya was clearly raped and I, personally, find it weird that there's any debate over the issue...

I'm sure most people don't but... twelve? Surely, this will depend on where you are but unless the evidence is strong, how hard can it be to find one dissenter?

I don't know if this exemplifies your point. the Duke rape case sounds like an attempt at a miscarriage of justice but it hasn't worked out well for the prosecution and appears to be normalizing itself. That sounds like a case of the justice system working, not failing...

Rape cases are pretty rare and not highly publicized (or maybe they just seem rare 'cause they're not highly publicized) but I've never heard of a conviction based on a he said/she said case. Indeed, personally, I don't see how such a case can even go to trial. Now, I'm not a lawyer so, really, what do I know but can you link a case where someone was convicted based on her testimony alone?

I assure you that I never once thought your stance is that rape doesn't happen. Two women in this thread, alone, were raped. Do I give you the impression that I think you're a moron?

I'm not putting any more faith in the system than I had, before. How does being able to withdraw consent during the act help falsely accuse someone of rape? That makes no sense. You can falsely accuse them without that clarification. All it does is allow a complainant to tell the God's honest truth and still file a valid rape charge. This hardly seems like a bad thing for me...

So, you're saying that, in your state, you don't really have to have probable cause. You can go to a judge with no evidence say "c'mon man!" and he'll say "oh, okay..." and let you proceed to the grand jury hearing? Really? Believe me, I understand that the criminal justice system is far from perfect, ham sandwiches and all, but we're approaching tin foil hat territory, now...

abaya

Do me a favor and drop the hostile tone and assumption that I'm somehow beneath your reasoning. I understand what you're trying to say, and I've read all your posts... but I see no reason for you to use such an angry tone.

Okay, here is where we seem to disagree. Who judges "incapability" of giving consent? I was 24 years old. I got myself drunk, and I made myself incapable of remembering anything that would happen to me. I was not drugged, I was not seduced. I fucked myself up. I apparently gave consent to this guy (verbally and physically), though I have no memory of doing so either way.

NONE of that takes away from his crime of taking advantage of the situation, I agree with you on that. However, I do not see myself as some "victim" in that situation. I put myself there, and I made choices that allowed a series of events to take place. Two people are responsible, and I just don't see how any judge or court could split up that responsibility with any fairness. That's why I have/had a problem calling this "rape."

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KnifeMissile

I apologize. It didn't seem bad at the time but, in retrospect, that sentence was rather condescending. I meant to convey what I would normally do and that I was going to make an exception to my usual behaviour because of a lack of response to an earlier post. I took that lack of response as a lack of understanding so I was going to be more explicit in order to expedite said understading.

Well, if we're simply not capable of judging consent then why do we even define it? What's with the age of consent?

Obviously, as a society, we feel that we can reasonably judge consent. The fact that you incapacitated yourself doesn't mean you "asked for it." As my previous scenario list tried to demonstrate, incapacitating ones self doesn't constitute consent. She can't say no so she must be saying yes?

Again, just because you are physically capable of saying yes doesn't mean you are able to consent. You have to be of sound mind to give consent and you've clearly demonstrated that you were not that.

It depends on what you mean by responsible.

I can agree that you put yourself into a situation where you increased your chances of getting raped. Like walking down a dark alleyway or practicing prostitution without due precaution, or finding the most mean and selfish men you can find and telling them you'd have sex with them but then changing your mind at the last minute and watching them get very angry. All of these women have deliberately taken actions that increased their chances of getting raped. Did they all deserve it? Did any of them deserve it? If they deserved it, does that mean the rapist is absolved of his crime? It's okay to rape girls who "are asking for it?"

In my opinion, you are responsible for your actions but that doesn't mean you deserve to be raped and it certainly doesn't free the rapist of guilt. I can't say it's okay to rape girls who put themselves in a position to be raped yet I can't help but think this is your position...

abaya

Thanks for the kinder tone, KM. I appreciate it.

No, no, no, and no. I did not make any allusion to me or anyone else "deserving" it. No one deserves to be raped, period. We agree there, particularly on this point... Yep, my only point was that I was responsible for my actions (hence what the OP and this thread are partially about). I did not say that I deserved it, or that the guy wasn't an asshole for doing it. I think the fault still lays most heavily on the guy, but I saw no point in pursuing that legally, for my own reasons.

And I find it interesting that up until now, here on an anonymous internet forum, not a single person IRL called the situation "rape." And I told quite a variety of people about this situation... (very close friends, both conservative and liberal, men and women). Although, it's true that I didn't tell my parents... they might have been the only ones to label it that way. But what parent wouldn't respond in that manner.

Again, I never said it was "okay." That is not my position. My thoughts are that in some situations, the woman is not 100% a victim, and the man is not 100% a perpetrator. Yes, the man can always overwhelm the woman... but when physical force is not involved (e.g., in my case, the dude was a wimp... I could have beat this guy up), it's more an issue of both sides making poor decisions. Then it's very difficult to point the finger entirely at one person.

Responsibility and justice are complicated in some situations, I've found.

I can start to agree with you here, on the idea of consent. Sound mind.

But what happens when the other person is also not of sound mind (the guy was, clearly, drunk as well)? Or if I appeared to be of sound mind (a common occurrence, when one is blacked out)? It's all very gray area, at that point. Hence the complications.

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KnifeMissile

Okay, it sounds like we're clearing a lot of things up.

I very rarely have a kind tone on this board but I never attack anyone, especially personally. I may be more condescending than I realize and I'll keep a lookout for that...

Where do you live? I'm going on a world tour soon(ish) and maybe I'll be stopping by your city? Then I can tell you "IRL" that you were raped. Then, maybe we can have a couple of drinks and then have ourselves some fun!

I don't think it's just "real life." So far, I'm the only person on this board who thinks you were raped and that astonishes me. I find it a little disturbing and I'm the guy who stands up for the rights of pedaphiles!

I can agree that life is complicated and the law doesn't always reflect that but I don't see it in this case. You talk of partial responsiblity but I honestly don't see how you putting yourself in a situation to be raped lessens his guilt at all. It was easy to rape you therefore it's not as bad? Really?

Legally, I don't know.

"I swear, I thought she was older than that!" Is that a defense for statutory rape? Even if it were a defense, does that mean it wasn't really rape?

I agree that it can get complicated, especially if the rapist is impaired, as well. It's hard to imagine that both parties are sufficiently impaired to lack responsibility whlie still being physically capable of arranging and having sex. However, if that's the case then, perhaps, it wasn't rape?

Gilda

You aren't the only one.

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Sharon

I'm with KM and Gilda.

iccky

Of course, in the Duke case that didn't happen, which is really rather amazing. Despite a crusading DA willing to cover up evidence, a racial environment stacked against the defendants, a national media firestorm, a campus eager to prove that is was PC and not in thrall to a bunch of "jocks," the accused young men apparently are going to get off. They don't even have to go to trial. They aren't going to jail for 25 years, they're going back to college. And the real wrongdoer in the case, the DA, looks like he is going to be punished. Lots of people like to throw around the "girl crying rape, guy gets screwed" stereotype, but it's usually devoid of any evidence that this is actually a common occurrence.

We can debate whether abaya was or was not raped, but if the case did go to trial and abaya gave the testimony she gave here, there's no way the guy would be convicted. I seriously doubt a prosecutor would even pursue the charge.

As to the original law, consider this scenario from Dan Savage's column.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/S...ove?oid=125353

I don't think anyone's going to disagree: this is rape. But the woman clearly consented to a sexual act. By all appearances it was an act that might involve pain and domination. This guy has a passable defense if the woman isn't allowed to withdraw consent once it is given.

Gilda

I shouldn't post when I'm this tired.

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Zyr

I'm hesitant to call what happened to abaya rape.

She did not give her consent, or at least didn't, in the sense that an underage person didn't, even if they said yes. However, if there is rape, then would there not also be a rapist? A rapist would be one who intentionally has sex, knowing no consent had been given. Now from what I've read, the man involved thought he had consent, and may not have continued if he thought that abaya didn't want it to continue. So we have a person who was raped (did not give consent), but not a rapist (was given consent). How does one resolve that conflict?

As usual, alcohol confuses an otherwise clear situation.

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abaya

This is the point I'm getting at. While I appreciate you and several others on this thread (Hal, Gilda, Sharon) being bold enough to call my situation a rape, I'm still not convinced... because there is really no way to say how drunk the guy was, since no one was there to measure our BAC. I can say for SURE that I was completely wasted (more than I've ever been, before or after that night... and that says something), and that the guy himself was also so wasted as to have missed his flight that morning when we sobered up (again, no pity here whatsoever--but I'm just adding that fact to story).

Certainly, KM, you make a good point about how anyone could be so impaired as to not be able to arrange/have sex... but again, there I was, a virgin in every sense of the word... totally blacked out... and yet capable of having sex and apparently enjoying myself (and I do remember when I was starting to sober up, that I *was* enjoying myself somehow... until the reality hit me, that I wasn't with my friend and I had just had sex with a strange man). I'm telling you, being impaired by alcohol doesn't mean one is disabled, especially when blacked out.

So, if you ask me, Zyr has captured my dilemma exactly with this:
Yep, I'm convinced from the e-mail exchanges with the guy afterwards, that by all accounts he really did think it was consensual. Granted, he could have made all that up to cover his ass. But what kind of conscious rapist would keep in touch via e-mail after the event (writing down all the details OF the event, thus recording them to paper), and then go so far as to mail my camera and other left belongings to me, along with an accurate return address and even a copy of his damned orchestra audition CD? As well as a contact phone number.

So yes, perhaps I was raped... because I was not of sound mind when it happened, I was taken advantage of. But I also gave consent, in the usual form (verbal & physical), and what young, horny asshole would have acted differently in that situation? I mean, come on... how many TFP'ers have been drunk at a party or bar, met a drunk girl, and got it on, only to have one or both people regret it all (or forget it all) the next day? More than would care to admit, I'm sure.

And is that rape, too? Does the woman have a right to press charges in that kind of situation (what this thread is all about)? Or, as iccky said:

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StanT

I'll admit it.

The situation raises another question. If his BAC level turned up higher than Abaya's and he he regretted it in the morning would Abaya be guilty of rape?

abaya

Thanks for being honest, Stan. I think it's really helpful to the discussion here. I hope there are more honest people out there (on both sides) who will step up here and keep the thread as concrete as possible.

Precisely the kind of confusion that I'm talking about here. As far as I can tell, in the taxi when the guy picked me up, I kept asking if it was alright to go back to HIS place (a hostel in town, though not the same as mine). Again, the whole consent thing started pretty early.

Granted, the guy himself remembered more of the night than I did (from what he said), and thus could have made up the entire story about me giving consent... but who would be able to decide that? Not me. I'm capable of saying and/or doing just about anything when I'm drunk, and that's a known fact about me. I go crazy. But again... what kind of rapist provides a real name, address, phone number, and e-mail to an otherwise anonymous woman whom he could have simply picked up, fucked, and left for dead/passed out at any time?

Basically, the whole thing was just surreal as hell (literally), and I have no real conclusions about any of it. I don't know who to blame. I get angry at myself, at the guy, at the ride-along acquaintances who didn't give a shit about any of it. More than anything, the whole thing makes me pretty sad, though there are a few positive things that I found from the whole situation. But that's not what this thread is about.

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KnifeMissile

This was my point, earlier. He says he was drunk but managed to do quite a bit and remember it all. How drunk was, he, really?

A rapist who knows you have no evidence against him can and will do anything he likes. I don't think you can read too much into this friendly demeaner. I don't think the typical date rapist would leave anyone for dead, either, but I don't consider it any less rape...

While it's entirely possible that he made up the whole story, because there are no witnesses and any other evidence, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt which is why I haven't accused him of lying.

If I were to judge from personal experience (which most people tell me is unreasonable), I'd say that there is no amount of alcohol that can rob you of your reason and responsiblity. Most people would disagree with me so I can only assume they're affected in ways I'm not. I've also never had a hang-over so perhaps that says something...

Here's an intereseting defense. If I'm too drunk to know what I'm doing, am I responsible for drinking and driving? I'm too drunk to know that drinking and driving is wrong so how can I be guilty?

Well, if he was as drunk as you were then I suppose you can only blame yourself for getting yourself that drunk...

abaya

Heh, no offense, but perhaps you haven't been drunk enough to make this kind of judgment? Which isn't a bad thing, whatsoever... (it'd be nice to have never experienced a hangover, personally). But yeah, if extreme amounts of alcohol can be said to do anything (other than poisoning your liver and entire body for 24 hours), it's robbing people of their good judgment and common sense. That is, their reason and responsibility.

I didn't stick around long enough to find out how hungover the guy was, but I can tell you that I had one hell of a hangover for 24 hours after the fact. At times I've wondered if someone put something in one of my many drinks that night... entirely possible. Perhaps the guy himself did it, which could account for what knocked me on my ass, mentally, for 8 hours straight (for me, it's hard to believe that alcohol alone could black me out for that long... my longest blackouts in safer circumstances were an hour or two, at most). But again, no one will ever really know.

Btw... on the drinking and driving point. I never said the guy was not guilty. Nor did I ever say that I deserved what happened. Those things are undisputed. All I am saying is that I was not 100% a victim. That much, I know, is true. Maybe it's for my own sanity to believe that, but it's what's in my head.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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KnifeMissile

I've taken no offense. Indeed, what have you said that was at all offensive?

I've been as drunk as physically possible. Not only do I love alcohol but I love the taste of alcohol and don't care for getting drunk (unlike most people who seem to drink to get drunk, the taste be damned!). There were times when drank so much that I would vomit if I were to drink any more and, thus, it would be physically impossible to get any drunker. Even at these times, I still knew what I was doing and would still remember it the next day. As an example of my consciousness, I would make sure to drink plenty of non-alcoholic fluids before going to bed in an attempt to avoid a hang-over the next morning 'cause they don't sound like fun.

Thus, personally, all these drunken "I had no idea what was going on and don't remember" stories seem incredible for me. Am I really so different from the average person? ...but now we're diverging quite far from the thread topic...

ratbastid

This is pretty seriously off-topic, but without a BAC measurement, what you've written here is meaningless. You're taking the anecdotal evidence of your own response to alcohol and using it to discount the experience of a whole swath of people.

Technically, since alcohol takes some time to digest, it's possible to overload the system before the stomach has time to react. If you haven't been hospitalized for alcohol poisoning, you haven't been "as drunk as it is physically possible to get". It may have been impossible for you to have ingested any more alcohol at that time, but that's different from having pegged the drunk meter for all humanity.

All that said, I guarantee you your judgment was impaired at that time.

Look, at the end of the day, rape is in the eye of the beholder. Abaya doesn't "feel" raped. She "feels" like what happened was, she got drunk and in a moment of drunken bad judgment did something she regrets. She's being WAY responsible for herself and her life here. I, for one, decline to turn her into a victim of something. She's got way more power with the situation if she can keep her own responsibility for it (which is different from blaming herself, which I don't hear her doing either).

Rape is in the eye of the beholder. That's what this law is about (anybody remember the OP?). This law codifies that if at any point either party "feels" raped, it's rape. That's how it IS. May as well be law.

Ourcrazymodern?

(Apologies to the populace)

With judgment impaired
people react all the time.
Otherwise, sometimes.

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abaya

Just to follow up... nope, you haven't gotten yourself to the point of blackout probably because you haven't drank to the point of vomiting, yet. I don't know the biology of it, but I've witnessed it several times with friends as well as in myself. You can drink to the point of throwing up, then vomit... and go right back to drinking, getting yourself in even deeper.

After several iterations of this process, you get to the point where the brain is so overloaded that it starts to switch off its "recording mode" (the parts of the brain that control memory), as well as any rational thought processes. You forget to drink water, you forget that you're a virgin (in my case), you forget that you care about anything at all, really. All circuits go down until the liver can begin to cope and shuffle that shit out of your system... and if it's even beyond that point, then alcohol poisoning sets in (which I have never experienced, believe it or not).

ratbastid has spoken the truth (at least, my truth) here, and in a powerful way. Thank you for seeing the core of the issue, rat. I really appreciate your words, more than you know...

Well, I've been trying to keep this related to the OP... since I felt it was a real-life scenario that could be tested against the OP and related laws, etc. I hope it hasn't gone too far off topic... but I think in drawing out my individual story, it has shown that indeed rape is NOT an entirely objective concept. Sure, in some situations, there are no questions whatsoever. But in many other situations it's a damn slippery label, and proves even more difficult to stick on someone in a court of law, or even in one's mind.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Daniel_

Totally agree with this point.

Consent is a binary situation, and can be withdrawn.

Sorry Hal, but I disagree on several points.

There is constant clarrification of what constitutes "right" and "wrong" in law. Otherwise our lawmakers would only need to make laws about new types of crime (so the only new laws in the past few years would be related to technological advances). After all, people have been murdering since Caine and Abel, so why do we need new laws about murder - ever?

Your statement "a switch any female can flip to get her partner in jail" raises two points that need attention; firstly - men can be raped too (ever seen Blue Velvet?) not to mention homosexual anal or oral rape; secondly, in the UK (and I believe in the US) rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove in court. It has the highest rate of cases not making it to court, and the lowest conviction rate for the cases that DO make it to court - something like 4% of victims alledging rape actually see a conviction.

As for it being an attack on premarital sex, other people have raised the issue of rape within marriage.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

KnifeMissile

Hmm, I didn't notice the last part of your post, before. Did you add that in your edit?

So, I guess the repeated uses of the word "personal" didn't indicate to you that I didn't mean to use my "anecdotal evidence" to "discount the experience of a whole swath of people." Again, I swear that people aren't even trying to understand me...

Well, I suppose rape is "in the eye of the beholder." I mean, a lot of rapists don't see themselves as rapists. They deserved the sex they got and the women were obligated to give it to them...

I vehemently disagree that that's what this law is about. This law doesn't, at all, "codify" what you're suggesting. If the woman withdraws her consent in the middle of sex and the man desists then it is not rape. If he continues then it's rape. That's what this law is about and it has nothing to do with "feelings." Indeed, I can't tell what the hell you're talking about!

Gilda

I guess I wasn't understanding exactly what abaya meant when she said she was blacked out. I was interpreting that as meaning unconscious or incapacitated, situations I found myself in a few times in my undergrad years. As she describes it now--she seemed to her partner to be conscious and reasonable--it's much more of a gray area and I would defer to her judgment here.

I wasn't aware that such a state as she describes was possible.

This doesn't in any way change my stance on the OP. Either party has the right to withdraw consent at any time. The man is generally going to do this by pulling out. The woman's "no" or other indication needs to be given the same respect, the same power by her partner.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

abaya

To address your comment, Gilda (and yep, I agree with you on your point about the OP, entirely)... yeah, I was neither incapacitated or unconscious during the entire night, and was in fact quite lucid... to the point where I was telling aspects of my life story very clearly and conscientiously, as quoted back to me by the guy after I sobered up... VERY surreal to have that repeated back to me. Yeah, neither was I, until it happened to me. Just a little more info on this... from one of the websites I've looked at to try and understand what happens biologically during a blackout, a part about blackouts and the legal aspects of a rape accusation (eerily, almost exactly what happened to me except that I didn't charge rape): And another quote from a Duke university website on the same topic... And, a very long quote from the same site, related directly to our topic...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

Agreed.

I at any time can revoke my consent for just about anything except for children.

Eating food, watching a movie, working for an employer, being married, all those I can stop at a moments notice.

There's no one to blame, but just you to forgive.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ourcrazymodern?

forgiveness
is rare amongst us
but there's more.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

smooth

abaya, as much as I respect you, I have a hard time understanding how this is a debate in your own mind, much less on the boards. if you drank yourself into a stupor and lost all your money at a casino, I would feel bad you were broke but the thought that you were a victim of theft wouldn't even cross my mind. because this is sex, a number of people seem to be seeing this differently...

the fact of the matter is, if I were that guy from your past, I would be devestated to be reading what I am here. to understand it even better, how would he have prevented the situation? you keep writing that you don't absolve him of taking advantage of you, yet your story as you've described it is some young man meeting a young lady in a bar, who appears conscious and perhaps not even drunk, expresses interest in him sexually, and asks to go to his place to do so. enjoys it, "comes to", exchanges accurate contact information (with a guy who just took advantage of you?--these thoughts seem to come up much later in sequence from this fact), and etc.

there are instances when people put themselves in situations they later regret and the things that happen to them there are deserved or at the very least rest on them. this is a FAR different statement than people who work in risky environments or live in them invite the ills that fall on them. if you dress "like a slut" that is not an invitation to be raped, neither is going to one's room for a nightcap. but abaya has laid out a pretty clear version of the story that indicates she asked, hey, let's go to your place and have sex.

if you drink yourself into a stupor and drive, you may not know that you are doing something wrong because you are so drunk. but the law recognizes you were sober before you drank all that alcohol. abaya explained that she knew she gets wild and does things she ordinarily wouldn't do when she drinks to that point--the responsibility, not 10%, not 50%, but 100% rests on her not to drink herself to that point. things might be different if she could come up with a reason to believe she was drugged or that her drinks were just way past the level of reasonable alcohol percentage...but she hasn't done that so far.

the reason you don't see a whole lot of cases of any kind going to trial is that 90% of them end in plea agreements. there aren't a lot of he said/she said cases going to trial, not because they're so weak to not get prosecuted, but because no sane person is going to face 20-50 years in prison when he can just plea out for a year or two--regardless of evidence. People are convicted everyday for a lot less than a woman's testimony to a crime.

And it's simply not true that you need 12 people unanimously agreeing before someone is convicted. That holds true in many states for capital crimes, but not even in all states. And just because jurors don't convict doesn't mean an acquital. and it never means not guilty. stand trial for rape, get acquitted, and see how everything goes back to normal for you...or not.


as for the OP, I would think that abaya's dilemma over how much responsibility she has over the timeline that led up to her loss of her virginity would fit right into the description of things that need to...well i forget the phrase but basically to own up to one's own responsibility. now had she come to and not been enjoying herself, and immediately said, hey, what the hell am I doing here, stop right now. I would have more tolerance for a rape or even victim label. The only thing she seems a victim of in this instance is poor judgement and good old fashioned regret. and while I respecdt your decision to retain your virginity until marriage or later or whatever, it's simply not fair to the person you engaged in what he and any reasonable person would have assumed was consent and then to later question whether he is or was a rapist. for those of you who seem to be alluding to knowledge on the phenomenon of rape, I'm surprised that no one has reported the very well studyed fact that it's about power and not sex.

there are many reasons for women to falsely report rape. and there are increasing ways for them to do so. there are almost no laws protecting men from rape, being raped, having it said about the interaction after the fact, even to the point that in many jurisdictions it's impossible for men to be raped according to the law on the books.

that said, this law appears to be symbolic. only in the sense that it empowers women to say no and puts wouldbe rapists on notice that they can't entice their dates into a quick "sure, whatever" and have it be all good. if anyone wants to falsely claim a rape, this law isn't going to embolden them to do so any further or make it any easier. it'd probably make the case more difficult and the investigating officer would probaby just guide the lady to be more specific in her account anyway.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

abaya

Smooth, with all due respect, I think you either mis-read my posts or I did not write them clearly enough. So here's some more on the issue.

If you were that guy from my past, you would have known every detail I have written here (and more), 3 years ago already. Because we corresponded at length over e-mail, trying to figure out what happened that night. When he found out that I had lost my virginity that night, yes, he was devastated and we stopped corresponding. I never, at any point, accused him point-blank of taking advantage of me, neither in e-mail or in a legal sense. But in my own mind, I could not understand how I had done something that went so against every single conviction and moral I had at the time. It was as if I was utterly possessed by another entity, it was that foreign of an experience to me. Again, this is common when blackouts occur (as I said earlier), but I didn't know that at the time.

I don't know if you missed this part of the story... but I meant it when I said that a stranger picked me up off of Bourbon Street I was not in some bar, nor was I expressing sexual interest in the guy. Again, from the guy's account only (not my own memory, which is all black at that point) he literally picked me up from lying in the street, where I had perhaps collapsed or stumbled and fallen. I was, to some degree, passed out at that point. My purse and beads and camera were in a disarray around me. Apparently after he picked me up we walked around the street some more, he got both of us more drinks (?!?), and I stabilized somehow. Somehow, we got into a taxi, and the idea came up to go back to his hostel, and I seemed to have encouraged it (again, according to his account). There was still no suggestion of sex, as far as I could tell, but that happened once we got there, I suppose. I also apparently vomited several times after he picked me up (there was vomit on my clothes the next morning), which to me is a clear signal that a person is probably not in a good state to be having sex... I mean, do any men actually find it attractive to have sex with someone who's throwing up on or near them? But whatever.

The fact remains that if I had been at all sober, I would never in my life have given consent in any form to go back to that guy's place and have sex with a total stranger. Hell, even if I had been drunk, I never would have expected myself to do something like that... but I had never been blacked out before, either, and I underestimated what one was capable of doing while in that condition. 8 hours, completely blank in my memory... I never imagined I could get so drunk as to lose my entire self and any semblance of conviction or morals regarding something I held so precious to me as my virginity, at the time. It was utterly unbelievable, and that is how I felt when I came to the next morning. Clearly, I could not accuse the man of rape when I sobered up, since we both (at the moment) appeared to be enjoying ourselves as the blackout ended.

But I can't even describe to you what it felt like to sober up there in the shower... it was like emerging from a dream state, except that the person dreaming was not even me. Like I was coming out of a body that was not mine, and suddenly landing in my own rational self and realizing I had participated in something unthinkable with my body. I knew I had to get myself out of there, and the guy insisted on sharing a cab with me and giving me his contact info. All I wanted to do was to get away from him and the situation, but at some level I knew I needed something tangible in order to sort it all out when I was more composed, so I asked him to write it on paper. And that was it, I jumped out of the cab and was gone into my own hostel, collapsing to sleep because my body had basically been up all night.

Smooth, did you not read most of my posts? This was exactly my point in the entire thing. To own up to what was my responsibility in the situation. It's exactly what ratbastid commented on, both here and in my most recent journal. I'm not sure why you think I'm not taking responsibility, at all.

Okay, from what I can tell, it seems you've completely misunderstood most of my posts.

1) When I came to, I DID say "What the hell am I doing here?" and stopped everything. I looked at the guy, looked at myself, and had one of the worst shocks of my life. I put on my clothes, and got the hell out of there as quickly as possible.

2) I NEVER, ever asked anyone here to see me as a victim. That was very clear, unless you somehow missed those posts? As for rape, I will never really know what happened, since all I have is the guy's account of it... but I have chosen to believe him for the most part, because it concurs with what I remember happening as the blackout ended.

3) I think I've been more than fair to the person in question here, far beyond what was necessary. You need to go back and read my posts again, I'm afraid.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sultana

I wouldn't say I am confused about Abaya's experience itself, but I think what may be confusing is that you say you accept responsibility, and from what you were told (by this total stranger) you appeared functional "of sound mind", etc. And that you explicitly asked for sex.

However, you know that you were not at all of sound mind. I don't know if that could be legally proven, though.

Now honestly, I don't know of many guys who would say, " Oh yeah, I pretty much pressured you into it, and completely disregarded the indications that you weren't completely yourself..." etc. whether from the fact that they don't want to portray themselves that way, or maybe they didn't even see it that way.

See on one hand I can understand the "she appeared ok, and wanted it, and enjoyed it, then afterwards she regretted it and is crying--" protestations.

However. I have a very difficult time accepting that a vomitous virgin was begging for it and enjoying it, and appeared completely cool with everything the entire time.

Of course his perceptions were alcohol-blurred as well.

In a way, I guess it comes down to: Did he intend to force himself on her regardless? Would he have stopped if she had made the indication for him to?

We'll never know.

However, I'd say this is a persuasive argument that responsible people should take the time to get to know the person with whom they have sex, so they can actually know and be aware if that person is "acting like themselves". That person could be on medications, could be mentally impaired or unstable, could be drunk out of their mind, any number of things that makes the difference from an ill-advised one-night stand or a rape.

I'm very sorry you went through this, abaya.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

abaya

Thanks, Sultana, for your input. I was hoping that more women would respond...
I agree. For all the research I've read on blackouts, I don't think any of it will stand up in court yet mostly because the individual always made a choice to begin drinking in the first place, and the responsibility begins there. Blackouts don't happen randomly... there is a cause, and it is alcohol. It is really like an out-of-body experience, though... where someone else comes in and uses you like a puppet, and then you become sober and your real self and memory comes back. That's honestly what it feels like.

Yeah, exactly... it's why I can't let the guy entirely off the hook, pretty much. The whole vomitous virgin thing that you mentioned... how could I have appeared "cool" with everything, the whole night? The guy said we had "great sex" and said that he had no idea that I was a virgin... he seemed to think I was extraordinarily experienced. I'd barely ever seen a man naked before, let alone done anything further than 2nd base. None of it makes any sense to me.

It comes down to those questions, but you're absolutely right in saying that we'll never know the answers. My impression of the guy was that no, he didn't intend to force himself, and yes, he would have stopped if I protested. But then again, I really have no idea and depend entirely on his account.

At times I've been tempted to do anything to get those memories back... be hypnotized, or whatever it took. But the fact remains that during blackout, the hippocampus (memory region of the brain) is completely offline. There ARE no memories to go back to, even if I had a way to regress and do so. The brain simply did not record events during that time.

I completely agree with you, but how many people here would stop having a one-night stand to "get to know" someone, in order to make sure that person was of sound mind and would not call "rape" on them the next morning, etc. Many people have one-night stands without a second thought, and then we get situations as with the OP (and I am sure it happens even when people have known each other for a while, as well)... someone calling rape when it was actually consensual, or appeared to be consensual. He-said/she-said. What else can be done...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

smooth

abaya, I read every word in each of your posts carefully, and I thought for some time before I responded to make sure I didn't come across to you as insensative.

But the fact remains, that when you claim in a response to me that you never, ever asked for anyone to see you as a victim, yet in a response to sultana that you just can't bring yourself to let the guy off the hook, then you are giving mixed signals to the board--or at least to me.

Those sentences give off to me that you are conflicted in your own ways of thinking about this. And it's coming across here through your text to me. I'm not confused about what you wrote, but you readily admit that you are confused on how to assess it. Please don't transfer that confusion over to me.

I'm not going to go through your account point by point. In fact, I can't. You don't remember the details, and your posts here are going to be geared to put you in the best light and support the point you were trying to express to Halx. Instead, I'll just restate the general point that Halx was making and the one you seemed to initially be responding to. He claimed that a number of sexual assaults could be avoided with the right education. You refuted that with your account. How could education have done anything for you, you wondered? Granted, Halx used the phrase, sex education, but I would suggest that had he been thinking of personal defense or even how to be a mature adult education, he would have been just fine. Because the fact of the matter is that when that guy found you lying in the street (and that information was news to me, "picking up" someone doesn't mean literally pulling someone up to their feet in this context unless you clarify that), you had drank yourself to a point that was dangerous for your sanity and safety. You should have never placed yourself in that situation. And this is NOT the same thing as a rapist claiming that his victim shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt.

The only thing that makes this questionable in your mind is that you were unable to give or rescind consent. You removed that capability from yourself, knowning full well that you are prone to doing things you don't normally do when you are drunk and then drinking far beyond sensable levels anyway. In fact, millions of people drink their sensabilities away precisely to dull their personal and social inhibitions. When someone sobers up in a strangers home, and regrets the sex he or she had the night before, that in no way approximates rape, or what people are beginning to understand as date-rape; rape isn't about *gettin some*; rape isn't to be taken lightly or ascribed to every awkward situation; and it shouldn't be used to explain away deep regret over losing something as precious to someone as their virginity.

all that said, I'll repeat that I feel bad for you because my own wife waited to have sex with me until she was 22. I understand how important that was to her and continues to be today. I feel as bad for you losing that important aspect of your life in the same way that I feel bad for my friend who lost his life savings at a casino--and I know people who are addicted to gambling even sober--but I don't boycott the casino and I didn't think it was theft.

Who in their right mind would put money into a casino's pocket? At any table, in any machine? We all *know* that the odds are tailored to favor the casino, that's their existence. Yet people play them all day long despite the fact that no rational person could expect to win money. Unless he was just there to have fun, his actions were not in accordance with someone who was thinking absolutely rationally.

I'm able to look at this from far enough away that I can see the similarities but I'll give you another analogy that may help you see what I am making with that gambling point: if that night, instead of having sex with him, you had given him $10,000 dollars. Would he be a thief?

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman