Prince

In the spring and early summer, my wife was spending way too much time out drinking with people, and I talked about it here. We talked about it a lot, and she cut down on it a lot. I also started going out with her to these bars, moderately, not often, but more often than before. Things seemed good.

However, they are not good. I'm a fucking mess, and you can tell me you told me so, that there was something I could have done, whatever. But I need to vent this out before I croak from stress. Some of this stuff doesn't make me look very good. I realize that. I've made my share of mistakes, and I don't claim to be a saint.

In late June, I noticed one day when my wife was on her PC that she would always minimize a chat window when I walked by, and then resume typing and occasionally laughing while I sat back to type on my laptop. After a while I got upset by this and told her as much. She had not used Messenger for about 5 years (which is as long as we have been married) and had just installed it again. I had to walk around in the room a lot because I was working on a paper at the time, and this continuous hiding was ticking me off. When confronted, she said she was talking to a guy who was just a friend, and the reason she didn't want me to see what they were talking about was because she was complaining about me. I thought, fair enough. I would want her to have friends that she can talk to and complain about her husband to. Married people need that outlet, it's natural.

But something about how she said it raised some suspicions that just would not die. When she told me that, she didn't meet my eyes. And, I don't know...it just didn't feel right. After some time of this gnawing on me, I decided to break some ground rules. I know my way around so it was not particularly difficult for me to break into her messenger. She had some suggestive avatars, the worst one being of her tit.

It was confrontation time again. She broke into tears and admitted that she had been "flirting online" with a guy from work. She said it was "stupid" and that she has no feelings for the guy, that it had just been "fantasy" and she had convinced herself that it was "harmless." She said the guy was just a friend. She said nothing has ever happened between them in real life or on the phone or even online, aside from the bit of flirting.

I told her that you don't show parts of your body to a "just a friend" of the opposite sex and joke with them online. It is unacceptable to me, and I told her I wanted her to stop communicating with him, period. As far as I was concerned, whatever friendship there had been, was finished. She agreed to cease contact. It would be easy anyway, she said, because the guy was quitting his job and would no longer work at the same place as her.

I felt awful about having broken into her messenger, however. At work, I used to hear women talking about how they spied on their husbands phone calls or text messages, or how their spouses did that to them, and I would think to myself, "how can they do that? how can they stay together with all that mistrust?" Now I knew. I had always thought poorly of that behaviour, and now I was no better. A sobering realization.

It was around this time, after she had agreed to cut him out of her life, that she had found this site with all kinds of funny and humorous t-shirts. She ordered one of them, which we both got a kick out of. Basically it's a suggestive t-shirt that both looks completely harmless, and at the same time suggests that the person wearing it loves to give head. She wore it when we went out with friends a few times and it was all good fun.

However, after the whole chat thing I had a lot of trust issues with her, while she seemed to bounce back more quickly from the whole experience. One night I said I was still dealing with the whole thing and wanted to talk. I asked her if she had had any contact with the guy since she promised not to. She admitted that she had emailed him and told him about the t-shirt.

You could say I was livid. The way I saw it, there should be no pressing need for her to inform this guy, with whom she had flirted online and shown her tit to, of her buying a t-shirt that suggests she loves to give head. Especially not since she had promised not to have any contact with him. I asked her once again about the nature of their relationship. I told her that I had looked up her phone records and noticed that she had placed calls to him that were almost an hour and a half long at a time. Sometimes at 1 or 2 am. She maintained they just talked about life, and work.

She said that night that beyond that email about her new t-shirt she had not and would not contact him or communicate with him in any way.

Later the next day, in the evening, I was feeling particularly down about the whole thing, and just felt like something in life was not in its place. Know that feeling? You can't place it, but you feel it.

By this time breaking into things that weren't any of my business had become rather easy for me, from an ethical standpoint, since every time I did I found evidence as to being bullshitted. I broke into her email, and even though she always deletes incoming and outgoing mail (she had told me as much) there was an email response from this guy. He was responding to an email she had sent to him that morning, just mere hours after our row and having promised me there would be no more contact. She had emailed him and all she said in the email was that I can see her incoming and outgoing calls.

That was it for me. Far be it to say that my trust-breaking and email-hacking behaviour should be considered "a OK," but I was getting pretty damn tired of getting validated every time for doing so, by what I discovered. I walked into the bedroom and she woke up as I started moving into the guest bedroom. I yelled, I slammed doors. That was so unlike me. I don't think I had ever raised my voice before in the five years we have been married. I am not passive in bed, but I tend to get very composed when arguing. That no longer applied.

She admitted that she was still in touch with him. She said she had felt that my ultimatum, my telling her to cut off all contact with him was unreasonable because the guy is her "friend." She said she had been annoyed at me for demanding it. I told her exactly why I felt that way, and she did not contradict that I was right in my reasoning for wanting her to cease all contact with him.

I asked her why she had carried on with the communication, and why she had told him about the dick-sucking shirt in the first place - why would he need to know about it? All she could say was that she had "been stupid," but that was the same line I had heard the very first time we had had a row about this guy. First time, it's stupidity. Maybe even the second time. But she had lied again, and again, and stupidity was no longer a valid excuse coming from a girl who has a college degree with honors.

She seemed visibly shaken by my moving into the guest room, and she was very apologetic. She reiterated that nothing had ever happened between them and that there was no romantic interest whatsoever. Somedays I believe it. Somedays I don't.

I explained to her that her repetitious lying is eroding this relationship (and I am sure my breaking into her email etc is doing something similar, for my part, I don't pretend to be without fault or flaw here) and that if she does not respect me or our marriage more than this then there is little hope for us. I did move back into our bedroom that night.

The other night I pulled up the phone logs for July since they were finally available. She had placed over 30 calls to him since her initial promise not to contact him anymore. We had a very long conversation and I made it clear that our marriage was touch & go at this point. She explained that while she was not attracted to the guy, she was attracted to feeling pursued by someone who could not and would not ever have her. I can't really figure out the motivation there, I've never felt that. I can understand needing to feel pursued and wanted, but by someone who could never have you? It smacks of some kind of power play, but I could be wrong.

We have talked very frankly about our life and she claims to be very committed to me and our marriage. I'm not really seeking suggestions like "marriage counseling" and whatnot because I am already looking into that possibility. I am starting to see a counselor this coming week, but at least at first I want to go alone.

I also don't need to be told that I should just leave her - I love her like mad, and I want to work this out. People do worse things than show a tit online and flirt with a co-worker. And lie repeatedly. Yeah, okay, there's not a whole lot that is worse than that, but anyway...

What I do need your advice with is my jealousy and anger. I am having a very hard time with believing her and trusting her now. I need to learn how to deal with these feelings or else they will hinder any progress we hope to make together. There is just all this anger and bitterness and mistrust inside me now. I am especially fixated on that guy, because he's married and has two very little kids, and according to my wife he would send her pornographic descriptions of how he wanted to do her. This guy, whom I spoke to once on messenger soon after the whole thing first came to my attention, told me that I need to be there more for my wife, and that they were just friends. It was all bullshit, and I feel like he's walking away from this with a smile, untouched, unharmed.

And it is fucking pissing me off. There is so much rage inside me right now I can feel it pulsating in my temple. I can't sleep without alcohol, and I have a bad craving for cigarettes just for the soothing effect, even though I haven't smoked in 15 years. I was up all night last night, and went to bed around noon...slept a few hours at a time, and when I am awake this shit is all I think about. I don't know what to do. I'm sure counseling will help, but in the meantime I feel like I am just self-destructing. I just wish I could do something with this anger. Place it somewhere. It feels unbearable to have it inside me like this.

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Who is John Galt?

Buk

Call the guy up, meet him. Or even just tell him how you feel.

Seaver

It's over unless you can accept she either A) Has or B) Will sleep with the guy. Hate to put it so bluntly... but that's what it's sounding like.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

inBOIL

This is a bad idea, given how much rage you're feeling. You might end up doing something you regret. For lowering the anger, focus on some other projects to distract yourself from the situation. Try not to think about it when you're not actively working on improving it.

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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

mixedsubstance

Yikes. Ya know, I will say I've been in a similar (not exact) situation as you. All I can honestly say from my experience is A- you will in time find a way to trust your spouse again if you really love them. B- If they really love you, they will give you reason to gain trust back with them. Look past the pain- how do they make you feel besides this fiasco? If you feel nothing but love, then you will find a way to work things out. C- Most importantly- take care of yourself first. Don't focus so much on fixing things or trying to figure things out- find a vice and take care of yourself first.

Best of wishes.

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Well, isn't that just kick-you-in-the-crotch, spit-on-your-neck fantastic?!?

*Without energy, there would be nothing.*

Halx

If she works with this guy, I'm willing to bet that she's slept with him. You can't get that flirtatious with a guy without cashing it in.

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ngdawg

I read this and thought you were my husband.

It's the beginning of the end.
First, you spied. Then you couldn't stop because you saw what you were hoping you wouldn't see. That justified what she was doing-two wrongs and all that.
She got defensive because you were wrong in snooping even tho she was or might have been wrong in continuing her friendship.
I know in my case, there was no way anyone was going to tell me who I could be friends with. Yea, I apologized, but I got smarter too and sneakier.
The final ax-ultimatums. They should never be given unless you are totally prepared to get the losing answer.
Your feelings are valid, but so are hers. You mistrusted before you came to any conclusions and by then it was too late. In other words, you pushed and she went.
In my case, we are still together, but not together. We do our own things, raise our kids as a unit and get along if superficially.
Now you have a decision to make. Only you can decide to stay or go. I'd say go before you're in over your head with kids, mortgage, etc. Trust me, it is not an ideal setup to stay once all trust is gone.

Impetuous1

I know and feel your pain. I went through something similar about three years ago with my current boyfriend. At that time we had been together about three years. I would walk into the room and he would minimize his chat window. I didn't think anything of it at first, until I noticed that he was doing this often when he thought he was going to be alone for a period of time. Later he confessed he had been "flirting" with this girl and offered to show me what was said. At the time I felt I trusted him and said that there was no need to see what he was writing to her as long as he didn't do it anymore. I let it go. Then I noticed he was still doing the same thing. I asked him what was going on and he just said he didn't think his privacy should be violated or something along that line. I started getting suspicious because when the chat window was up he would laugh and I would ask him what was so funny and he wouldn't respond.

So I did exactly what you did. My radars were going off that something was wrong. When he was talking to this girl, I felt like he completely forgot about me. He started becoming emotionally distant. I quickly found out what his definition of "flirting" was. Asking her to take off her shirt while she was on video cam with him. Asking if she would like a warm pillar of flesh. My head reeled, I felt sick. My heart was beating hard and fast. So I became angry and woke him up to let him know I discovered his dirty secrets. He was angry I'd broken into his computer and said she was just a friend, etc. This girl lived in China BTW, so there was no real chance of him physically cheating. Basically he told me I was being irrational because he wasn't doing anything wrong but he that he wouldn't talk to her anymore. However, much like your situation he lied to me. This went on for about four months.

I spoke with the girl who he was chatting with a few times as well. She always did her best to be nice to me. But I would always find more evidence every time I broke into his computer that he was lying to me. Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. I dreaded going home after work. I was a nervous wreck because I was always wondering if he was at it again. So, I started planning to move out. At that point he finally took me seriously and has stopped speaking with her. I made up with him and stayed. We're still together.

However, I wish I had handled things differently. I do regret breaking into his computer. I wish I had looked at those chat logs he had offered to show me. I also wish I would have just moved out when I found out about the content of his online "flirting". It would have saved me lots of heartache and sleepless nights. I could have just moved on.

But, as I mentioned, I stayed. I love him very much despite what happened. I still can't think back on it without getting teary eyed and a little sick to my stomach. This is three years later. I'm not going to lie, the trust is not completely back (for either of us-I did break into his computer) but it's still growing. But now I know the limits of our relationship. If anything like that happens again, it's over.

So, my advice is this. If you stay, you're looking at a relationship that may never be fully healed. What I think of it as is rebuilding the relationship from the ground up. But it's kind of worse since they've already disrespected you. If you go, you're looking at lot's of heartache, but you're also looking at a clearer head. Just because you leave doesn't mean it's over, it just means that you need time to heal yourself and decide what the next steps are.

Wow, I didn't think I was going to write that much but I felt I should share my much abbreviated story (let's just say I found out about all sorts of things when I looked through his comp) with you since I was was in a situation similar to yours.

mixedsubstance

Very well said. Obviously none of us are in this alone.

__________________
Well, isn't that just kick-you-in-the-crotch, spit-on-your-neck fantastic?!?

*Without energy, there would be nothing.*

Jenna

The similar thing happened to myself and my boyfriend.

Basically, my best friend growing up had an older brother who wanted to jump my bones worse than anyone I know. But, when we were friends, I was underage. He is nearly 10 years older than me, and he decided to not go after his urge because I was still underage. But he never stopped telling me that when I turned 18, he was going to fuck my brains out. This sounds a bit creepy, but I've always been mature for my age. By the time I was 15 I had at least an E cup and I was hanging out with people in their 20's. I even had adopted the nickname "Jailbait" for awhile.

The girl and I grew apart, we stopped being friends and by the time I was 18 I had a boyfriend. The guy and I kind of stopped talking, but we remained friends on myspace and stuff.

Then I got into a serious relationship, the one which I'm in now. It's been nearly 4 years. I'll admit, I've had some issues rather recently about the whole thing... I love my boyfriend, and he's the man I want to be with. But I feel I want to get out and experience more, I mean, I'm still young! This has been an ongoing struggle within for some time now. But, I know my current boyfriend won't wait for me, he's older and he will move on with his life.

So, when I got a message on myspace from this guy last winter, I got those "butterflies" in my stomach again that I haven't had in awhile. And the funny thing is, my boyfriend is NEVER shy with compliments, but it was something new, and knowing that he wanted me after years made me feel good about myself.

So, we were exchanging messages, him telling me about how he wants to get together sometime, and that he never did screw me... about how good I look, blah blah. I was sending back messages, mine were very vague, but definitely suggestive. I was making sure to delete the messages in both my inbox and outbox. But, I missed one.

My boyfriend found it KIND OF by accident - my myspace hadn't logged me out before he wanted to log on, and he went snooping in my inbox and outbox... so he didn't hack into my account or anything - but there was some snooping going on. He was LIVID. He knew this guy and knew how bad he wanted me, and he saw that I was being rather suggestive back. And he's had problems in the past with one guy in particular who would keep texting me, and wouldn't stop, but I honestly wasn't saying anything back to him. He did the same as you, he said that I was not to talk to him and I was to block him. He also wrote him a message saying to back the fuck off. He also told me that he wanted my password to myspace and to facebook.

The thing he didn't know is that I was talking to him via AIM at work, which he had no way of finding out. The AIM was much more in depth, and to be honest, I was actually contemplating going to have a one night stand with him. But, I did as my boyfriend wished, because I do truly love him, and I don't want to hurt him. I blocked him from all my accounts and I stopped replying to his messages. Although he did text me and say he felt bad that my boyfriend had found out, and that he hopes everything works out.

So, what it boils down to, is that there was an underlying issue that made me do what I did. There has to be something that your wife isn't telling you. It could be the same reasons I had, but it could be something else. I'd suggest digging deeper. Because it sounds like she never gave you a good motive for her actions. I know that I told my boyfriend a little about the reason I did it. And he understood, but we're doing ok now. We've actually been slowly trying to figure out a way to overcome the issue, but it's a really touchy subject. The only thing I can think of is an open relationship, which I wouldn't be totally opposed to, but we'll see how it all plays out.

But, I quit. I quit because I didn't want to hurt my partner. Your wife has continued. But it sounds like you're on the right track. I can't say I can help you with the anger issues, as I would be just as upset as you are. But I can tell you that if you get things worked out, the trust will come back slowly.

girldetective

Hello there, Prince. Is it possible for you to remove yourself from the situation for even a little while? A weekend perhaps? If not, can you occupy your time here and there apart from your partner, such as taking a walk alone after dinner, or something such as this? It might help to remove yourself from the environment for periods of time to give yourself time to breathe a little. Just a walk through your neighborhood is really good for this, for any length of time, even just to the corner and back. You can walk fast or slow, think or not think.

Another trick is to allow yourself a time each day for however long to ruminate. Be consistent, such as allowing 20 minutes on your way home from work to turn and tumble the situation round and round, and then set it aside. You could schedule to do this several times a day as needed. If you begin the cycle again remind yourself that you have already thought about it and you will take it up again at the next time you scheduled for it. This is particularly true at bedtime to help limit your sleeplessness.

i;m sorry for your trouble and wish you well.
Take good care.

Edit: If you cant sleep without aid, as you say in your posting, I might suggest Benedryl rather than alcohol. In addition, if you have a good doctor they might be helpful. If you cannot get to a therapist soon enough, call your local mental health helpline, or the one in the nearest city.

besitos

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Jinn

ng, you should read his other threads a while back about this same lady. It demonstrates (at least in my mind) that he has more than a simple reason to be suspicious of her "friends."

And Prince, I don't know what to say other than to say I'm sorry this is the person she's turned into.

For this:
I'd really recommend going to a gym or hoping on a bicycle or going for a run. Even if you're not in great shape, running or biking yourself until you can go no further does a lot for pushing the anger out, at least for me.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

neflyte

My sympathies to you, Prince. I hope you can work this out somehow.

But i must say, reading these stories make me want to abandon my searches for "the one". I'm still trying to figure out how to trust women again after what my ex did to me (nothing nearly as nasty as the above; we were each others firsts...you do the math), but reading these makes me think i'll never trust anyone with that part of my life. *shudders*

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thespian86

Agreed. Even when I wasn't in good shape I would hit the gym. It's a really healthy way to exercise (no pun intended) your demons.

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EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Craven Morehead

Sorry to read this. Whatever you do, I hope it works out the best for you. Only you will know what that is. Good luck.

Daniel_

I hate to read this, and as many have said, Prince, this is totally familiar to many of us.

In my case I caught on early, we had the chat, we had the promises, we had the failure to stick to the promise, we had the confrontations, and we had the divorce.

What you feel and what you want are all totally valid.

The problem is that none of what you feel and want is relevant.

She wants to be chased. And she's prepared to put her relationship on the line to be chased. That to me makes it sound like no matter how much she protests, she hopes to be caught.

The only way I'd say she doesn't hope to be caught is if she knows she's already been caught.

Can I ask - has she become more sexually active with you? More extreme? Done "the thing" you always hoped for but she always refused (with my ex it was a sudden conversion to her wearing lingerie when I got home from work, and actually WANTING to have my cock in her mouth after 17 years of thinking it degrading and wrong)? If these things are true, then she's already fucked him, and is probably doing it every time she claims to be out with workmates.

If you are determined to check - I suspect that there will gaps in her phone calls to him on the nights she claimed she was out with the girls, but long calls on nights she went out with you, but visited the loo mid-evening.

Unless she is first willing to end the destructive behaviour, second willing to fix the issues with you, and third willing to put herself beyond harms way, then it's over.

Your marriage is dead, my friend, it just twitches for a while. And that's the saddest thing I've said to anyone on this board.

You are doing the right thing in getting psych help though, you seem to be going through the five stages of grief, and maybe you're at "Bargaining".

I wish you well. Be strong and it'll be OK.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

MSD

I disagree. it's possible, and I have friends who are really flirty like this, but in this case I wouldn't put a penny of my own money on his wife having stayed faithful.

Prince

We've been more sexually active, but I wouldn't say above normal, more like back to normal. There's some stuff I'd like to do, like fuck outside, but she's still as inhibited as always. The spring wasn't a particularly great time for me and I didn't have much of a libido then. Oddly enough that changed when I found out about this chat flirting.

As for the phone logs, they are pretty consistent with what she's been telling me. There are no calls on her days off (she doesn't go out with her co-workers on her days off) and on the nights when she went off drinking w/o me there, there are a lot of calls, but they're pretty much like an hour apart.

The thing for me that's difficult to come to grips with isn't so much the flirty chatting, I had started to deal with that after it happened. It's the fact that she broke her promise, twice, not to ever talk to him again or contact him. She lied, again and again, and that's what makes it so hard for me to believe her now. She is fighting tooth and nail now to save the marriage. She claims that she never slept with him, or so much as kissed him, and rarely saw him face to face. He doesn't work where she works anymore and she carpools a lot with the girls. I realize that now that her marriage is touch & go, she would not be likely to admit fucking him, but I honestly don't think she ever did. That is not to say it would not have happened down the line, had I not found out about all this.

There is something definitely going on with her, and I've told her that she needs to figure out what it is. She honestly seems confused by her own behavior. When a friend of hers was in town, and wanted to get laid, she tried to hook the friend up with this guy, because she knew he wasn't faithful to his wife (he has a history.) I found this morally reprehensible, while she justified it as saying that he will cheat on his wife anyway, and she'd rather see her friend hook up with someone better than some random guy in a bar. This kind of behavior is severely inconsistent with the kind of person she was when I married her. I think her time spent with her promiscuous co-workers and the fact that they refer to her as a name other than her actual name (for store purposes, her name was taken) has kind of created this dual personality, I always felt that way anyway and didn't like this new personality much. But that's my pop psychology bit for the day.

It may well be that my marriage won't survive this. I honestly don't know. I hope it will, I do love her and I don't doubt that she loves me - but that of course isn't the problem. I am hoping that counseling will provide me with some clarity in this regard. As much as she hates psychology, she readily agreed to come to counseling with me. So we'll see.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

dirtyrascal7

You need to focus on things that are within your control. Obviously, it's not within your control whether this other guy cheats on his wife or not. And as much as you might wish they were, your wife's actions and feelings aren't within your control, either.

What you CAN control... is you. You've mentioned a number of things that you've done recently that are out of character. Well, if those things become a habit, are they really out of character anymore or have they become part of your character? I think you need to sit down and make a list of the values and principles that you'd like to live by, and a list of things you've done lately that violate those values. And then never do them again. Period.

Secondly, I would try to take a serious look at your relationship from your wife's perspective. Is it possible that you're taking her for granted? People tend to act out when they aren't receiving enough attention... or they find other sources to satisfy that need. I think it would help if you stepped up your efforts to make her feel special and loved instead of villainous or deceitful.

I don't know whether you and your wife will make it through this, but either way... at least you can look back and feel good about how YOU handled the situation.

__________________
"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past."

"Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

Daniel_

I think that you're being realistic in saying that you're not sure where this is headed.

All I can say is that in every case I've personal experience of the person who is seeking thrills (for want of a better word) is scared of losing the person who is staying behind, but also resents not being able to thrill-seek. Your wife has shown that she's quite happy to tell you what she wants you to hear, not what she's actually done (i.e. the email and phone history), and it seems as if she's shown more guilt at being caught than contrition at her bad behaviour.

For you to patch things up needs her to admit what she did, realise it was bad, agree to stop doing it, and stop doing it.

Another important thing is that she's shown that her moral sense is negotiable - she's happy to set her out of town mate up with her beau - one has to ask the question as to whether this is a vicarious thrill for her, or a dry run?

I might even go so far as to suggest that she was setting the friend up in the hope that the married guy would prove that he wasn't just all talk - in other words, if he'd screw her friend, he'd be more likely to screw her.

I think that you're brave trying fix things, and realistic in thinking you might not be able to.

Good luck, whichever way the dice fall.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

kutulu

I'm really sorry to see that things have not improved for you and your wife.

Wrong, first she was acting suspiciously by routinely hiding conversations. When confronted she gave an non-answer. He broke trust by snooping and found out that not only was she lying about the situation but flirting with a co-worker and essentially giving him naked pictures of her.

Did you read the original post? She was doing all of this before he was mistrusting her. His snooping confirmed suspicions.

I look at this type of thing similar to cops and warrants. Probably cause. It is wrong to spy on someone out of paranoia. However, it an SO is acting shfty it is appropriate to do some snooping. However, you better find something to justify your actions. Prince found a goldmine of information.

People like to judge relationships according to what their personal standards are. I don't think that is appropriate. Some people may be manipulative or possessive but if you want to be with that person you have to accept it. If both parties want to agree to make changes to benefit the relationship that is great but you can't expect to be able to change people.

Imagine A and B are a married couple. If A doesn't like something B is doing, it is within their rights to demand that that activity stops. If the B thinks this is unreasonable, then it is within B's right to openly refuse and explain to A why B is refusing. Then the burden is put back on A to decide if A can deal.

It is totally unacceptable, however, for B to agree to stop but still continue that activity while lying to A. This makes B an untrustworthy piece of shit.

Acetylene

For you, I want to reiterate what's been mentioned: Benadryl is a great sleep aid, and exercise is an absolute MUST. Work as hard as you can for as long as you can, and then work another 10 minutes. It'll have the added advantage of helping you sleep.

For her, yes--it's a thrill seek. She doesn't feel like she's had enough of the dating game. She may have married too young. Some people don't ever get ready to be married.

There are some people here who have successfully managed the open-marriage thing but to do it you need absolute trust, which is lacking here, so don't do it!!!

To really get someone to improve, you need to get them to take action of their own to prevent it happening again. Don't just say "Don't do it", say "Tell me how you will make sure you aren't tempted again." If you try to solve the issue with increasingly strict restrictions on her, her feeling of entrapment will worsen and her behavior along with it. Instead, let her voluntarily choose her own rules and restrictions. That way, when she breaks them (note WHEN, not IF), she can't tell you that you were unreasonable to ask that of her. Ideally, get them in writing.

The sort of thing I'm thinking she should say is "I'm going to stop using AIM at home and take up a hobby instead" or "I'm going to make time for a special date night with you every week so I can feel like we are still lovers and this is still exciting" or "I'm going to join a belly-dancing class so I can feel sexy and get some exercise in a safe environment (these classes are all female)". Whatever she comes up with needs to make sense for both of you, though. Your results may vary.

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.

Prince

Yeah, exercise has been mentioned before as well and I agree, it's a much better and more constructive way to release energy. I will take up on that suggestion.

She was 23 when we got married. I was her first serious boyfriend, and her first/only sexual partner. She was battling weight issues in college and wasn't chased after by guys. She has told me that she had no attraction for the guy she was chatting with (I find this hard to believe but she keeps claiming it) but that she was attracted to being pursued by a guy who couldn't have her. She liked the chase, I guess. Maybe now that we've been married for five years my appreciation for her body and her sex appeal isn't enough for her. I could understand that; I have felt sometimes that I wish some cute cashier would flirt with me so that I could feel like I was still worth a second look. Just for an ego boost. If that's what it was, then I can understand it, even if it went beyond the realm of what's acceptable. I hope to uncover the root of the problem in counseling, but it's possible that she'll have to figure it out for herself, while I focus on making sure I am ok.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

genuinegirly

Now that's a solid venting session if I ever saw one.
I read your story, hopped out of my chair and went into the other room to kiss Tt. He's such a good man, I don't think I could dream of actively flirting with another man. I do hope that your wife realizes the destructive nature of her behavior before it destroys more than just you.

Please, go to counseling. Together. She needs another adult to tell her to stop. And you need someone to help you see if it is salvageable or not - this sense of limbo and possible infidelity is killing you.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

ngdawg

You really approve of snooping? That makes the snooper just as untrustworthy as the snoopee.
I remember reading the original post when it first appeared and perhaps I should read it again, but the gist of this whole sordid affair is that communication is nonexistent.
Regardless of whether he really tried to have a heart to heart (and we haven't heard her side at all, don't forget), living with the idea that two wrongs make a right solves nothing. Someone has to be the adult and if she's not willing to be(I think she wants out, quite frankly, but doesn't want to be the "bad guy"), then he needs to be. Snooping and suspicions, confirmed or not, is not the way to do it.
The bigger question is does he want to continue this merry go round of a marriage or cut his losses? The old "am I better off with or without her" probably applies. I vote "without".

Oh and I hid conversations too because sometimes we'd all get raunchy. If I was laughing and I thought it was worth sharing, I did so. But I hate HATE anyone reading over my shoulder.

highthief

Bang! That's the advice you were generally looking for. The stuff that is out of your control - nothing you can do about it unless you're planning on going postal.

You should focus on what you can control - you own way of living, your values, etc.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

toxic515

Prince,
I am truly sorry to hear about your situation. Obviously there are many schools of thought about trust, snooping, splitting up, etc.

I'm a big proponent for contracts, agreements spelled out in detail. Marriage / dating are some of the most interesting contracts, in my opinion. We don't buy a house or a car without knowing the details up front, yet we date or marry without really considering most of the contract. In fact the contract tends to be defined by the end of the relationship. As a result, I'm not a fan of the "unspoken" contract; The unvoiced expectation that I will trade this for that.

Every relationship is, in fact, a contract. It is an exchange of value for value. Most contracts have clauses that allow for restitution or at least consequences when the contract is broken. Since the relationship tends to be one of those nefarious unspoken contracts, you have to decide for yourself where your values lie. Have you ceased receiving value in the relationship? Is this irreconcilable? Is there likely to be a time when the value will be repaid, if it is not being exchanged now? Are you providing the necessary value to her? At this point, perhaps she is failing to see the value you bring to the relationship, even if it does exist.

Before you surrender to rage or frustration, take a moment to define your own values in this relationship. Love is a funny thing, people tend to think you should love unconditionally. I do not believe this at all. I don't love for no reason at all, and I don't think anyone else does either. If the things that cause you to love no longer exist, then you have to make decisions, and basing them on logic is about the only way to go about it.

My wife did something very similar in our early years of marriage. Now, to be fair we found later that she was suffering from a very serious clinical depression. However at that time we did not know that, nor would it have completely excused the situation. I snooped. I suspected that she was breaking the contract, which was clearly spoken, as was yours. How else does one acquire proof, if the other party will only hide it more. That being said, I informed her before looking at anything that I did not believe her and would like to see chat logs and emails. She refused, acting incensed that I would dare to question her. I simply informed her that her options were limited at that point. I was going to either look with her direct permission and we would discuss it, I would hack her machine and get the answers, or i would fail to hack it, and simply assume that she was lying and take whatever action I felt appropriate. I succeeded in checking her computer, and some of my fears were confirmed, some were not.

She was incredibly angry, a reaction I had accepted as probable when I decided on my course of action at the time. She maintained that I was the culprit, since I had gone looking for trouble. I had also accepted that this was a likely reaction to my snooping. I told her, without rancor or rage, that that left her with choices again, limited, but similar to mine. We had 2 very young children, and that was going to affect my decision. I decided at that time that perhaps we both needed some time to evaluate the exchange of value in our relationship. Perhaps it was time to separate and to identify what we each thought was important. It lasted about 2 days. I spent a single night away from home. She called the second day for a discussion. In that discussion we laid the ground rules that have governed our treatment of each other for the past 10 years. Those rules have been flexible, they have been modified over time, but they have been the bedrock for a love and a friendship that has weathered ups and downs in fine fashion. Nothing remains unspoken to us now. If something is an issue, it must be discussed as soon as it becomes a problem.
I don't want to turn this into more of a dissertation, but with work and communication on BOTH sides, the relationship is not dead. However, nobody can sing a duet alone, and if she won't participate in the repair, it's not going to work. You have to decide what your boundaries REALLY are, and you have to stick to them. But define them with honesty to yourself before you break out the hammer.

__________________
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies
like a banana.

Poppinjay

So, if he snoops, he's wrong. If he hires a detective to snoop, as many divorce lawyers recommend, would he be right?

At any rate, couples therapy is in tall order here. Frankly, the wife has every bit of the responsibility Prince has to be the adult. She doesn't get a pass because she lacks testicles. It's time for her to stop being a girl.

What is really needed is somebody outside the situation who is a professional at dealing with these issues.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

tooth

When something stinks, you often have to do some digging to find the rotting cheese. Nothing wrong with snooping when trying to protect your marriage from an affair.

Acetylene

She probably isn't attracted to him. If she did have sex with him, it wasn't because she was horny and she probably wasn't even turned on - but the attention he would have lavished on her and the validation of her attractiveness would be all the incentive she needed.

Everyone likes to be desired. Women in particular are trained to value attention and approval of others above all else. Hence, the high rate of anorexia, the expensive makeup, the shoes that mangle our feet.

Once you're married, you can't seek approval and attention the easy way (by offering sex, or the hope of sex). A lot of women can't handle this or don't think it's fair. Personally, I was relieved to be off the market, so to speak. Life got a lot simpler. But I think I'm probably kind of unusual for a girl my age (I'm 23).

I wish I could offer more specific suggestions for you, but I think what she's feeling might be similar to what a man feels in his "midlife crisis" -- "I'm still a man, I'm still strong and sexy, I deserve to have a little fun, I will prove it with my muscle car and new blonde girlfriend." Maybe the analogy will help a little.

I don't know if it's reasonable to expect her to give up all the "fun" that she obviously misses. She might say it's not fair, I don't know. Personally, I think that kind of "fun" is a genetic imperative and nothing more, and it's hurtful in the long run, and people are happier when they are in a long-term relationship... but I am old-fashioned.

Your therapist will have seen this behavior a hundred times before, and s/he will know what to do. Good luck! And remember--you should like your therapist, and if you don't, find a new one.

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.

abaya

Agreed. Ktspktsp and I have the same "contract," in a way--if there is serious, repetitive, probable cause for snooping--we have given the other person permission to snoop through our personal things/e-mails/chat logs, to find out what is going on. In a marriage, you don't preserve the other person's trust in you by acting in a reproachable manner over a long period of time. If it goes on for long enough, then the other person has every right to snoop and preserve his/her sanity, and perhaps even the marriage itself. I guess it's a good thing that my spouse and I agree on this standard before we ever have to deal with a situation like this, however--if it came up out of the blue, then the situation would be a bit sticker.

Prince, I'm on your side--we're here to support you. Very glad to hear that you are seeking out counseling, and that the wife is willing to go as well. Put the work in, and see where it goes. Let us know what happens.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran