sasKuach

Hi,

I have an interesting set of questions for you all. So just a bit of background info since I don't post here even on a yearly basis: I'm the kind of guy that nearly every girl at a party has to make it her business to talk to, I've been called everything from cute, hot, handsome, etc. Usually, about 3 out of 4 girls or so seem to enjoy flirting with me, but I have a HORRIBLE time following up to get a date. How bad? I've gotten 3 first dates this year, and I'll be a 24 y/o virgin this month. Thanks, hold your applause for the end please.

Anyway, so girls seem to have this sort of "omg serial rapist pervert axe-murder gross get-a-way-from-me lol" reaction when I call/message them 2 to 7 days later. This is after we've been flirting for say, 3 hours, at a party and SHE gave me her number without me asking (or necessarily wanting it).

You're probably wondering what I say to these girls. Do I invite them back to my place to show them my handpainted Warhammer figurine collection? No. Do I show them my 4inch switchblade after they give me their number? Don't have one. Do I go on and on about Ford trucks and glasspack mufflers? You'll hear me coming, I don't have to tell you. Do I buy girls drinks expecting something in return? No, there's nothing attractive about a drunk chick. Do I follow girls around? No, they follow me around.

My question(s) to you: How much more safe and laid back can you get than meeting at a coffee shop or student lounge? Oh, and yes, I'm a student, so I'm not that wierd dude that isn't a student that hangs out with college kids. What would make YOU do an about face after giving a guy your number? I'd understand if girls just freaked out after 30 seconds or so, but 3 hours? a week after a date? What am I missing here? if you don't know the answer to these questions, at least bounce the general idea of "creepiness/wierdness" around so maybe I can spot something. Or is that not even it? What would an attractive, funny guy have to mess up to not even get a date? Should I persist more and work past what I perceive as rudeness on her part? Any input welcome. I'll be more than happy to answer any questions and don't be afraid of hurting my feelings.

Thanks,
Rob

PS:

Issues that I have:
1) I'm jealous of loser guys that have a girlfriend and expend zero or no effort on this and are thus more productive in life than I am.
2) I'm currently pissed off at girls because they get to choose who they grace with their attention.
3) I'm jealous of girls for point #2 above.
4) I feel that college (which is over in a month for me) was a huge missed opportunity which I'll never have again.
5) I have yet to meet an attractive single girl.
6) I feel like destroying a car with my bare hands due to all reasons above.


PPS:

I realize I'm SOOPER bitter right now and you're saying "I don't blame them, I wouldn't wanna talk to this pansy either" Please realize I'm not usually like this. See point #6 above.

Sage

It's because you're in college. Girls in college are stupid, for the most part. They don't want some really nice, hot guy that's going to be all suave, because they're not ready for it. They wanna drink until they get laid and not remember it in the morning, or they're totally bookish and prudish and won't give you the time of day. Or they're LUGs (Lesbians Until Graduation.) Take your pick.

TRUST ME. Wait two months- get out of college, get into the "real world" that everyone keeps talking about, and THEN go meet some girls. You'll be knee deep in hot women.


A Caveat- just in case it is, in fact, you and not them, are you sure you're not coming across too metrosexual? I ask because sometimes hot men, while really hot in a bar and such (and thus used as ego boosters by girls who want to feel like they can flirt with really hot guys) are just too metrosexual to be taken seriously in daylight. That would be the only reason I could think of, given your points above, that girls would not be attracted to you.

On another note, TFP needs some women and men to be "designated sympathy lays." More sex for all!

__________________

Ustwo

Holy Christ on a cracker!

NOW someone tells me.

And to think I've been married to a girl I met in college all these years!

They don't want some really nice, hot guy that's going to be all suave, because they're not ready for it.

Please tell me I'm just tired and my sarcasm detector is not working properly

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ASU2003

What are you saying when you leave them a message? Are you asking them out right away, or do you say, "There is this party I am going to this weekend, I think you should go too. I have had some interesting things happen in the past few days"...

As for your questions.

1. Yes I hate that too, just like I'm not going to read that thread "Losing interest in having sex with my girlfriend". Since both of us have never had sex, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't have sex with a willing girl. I bet you have the same thoughts about that.

2. Nothing you can do but be an interesting person that girls are attracted to.

3. Do some research and look inside yourself and figure out why.

4. True, you will never have the large concentration of women your age that you can have something in common with right away.

5. That is your fault. One of my must haves when I was picking a school was hot girls. Arizona State is a pretty safe bet. Didn't help me much though. And there are hot girls everywhere.

6. Put your energy into working out and exercising. Or go to therapy.

There is a very likely possibility that finding a girl will be harder after college. The main place is at bars and on-line now.

sasKuach

@Sage:
Wow, how did you know? I do dress metro, loving every minute. When I don't dress nice, I don't even get eye contact. I guess I don't know how to dress up without looking all Uhn-Tss Uhn-Tss Uhn-Tss. Being in West Michigan doesn't help either, I bet.

Also, very interesting point about the public ego boost, I've never thought about that. What should I try to do besides physically leaving after a bit? They follow me around and I don't want to be a trophy conversationalist. Maybe I should get a donation jar for guys to put money in for me to watch their girls while they talk about guys stuff.

Yes, I work out. It's the reason I do it. I don't do it to look good or be healthy.

Here's a convo off Facebook with a girl I met at a party and talked for ~30 mins then ran into her the previous day:

Robert:
-------
didn't think i'd run into you, hehe

you live downtown, right?

rob

SomeGirl:
-------
haha, i didnt think that i would run into u either! it's so cool though, cuz i really haven't seen u forever!!!
yeah, i live downtown in winter hall :-D whyy?

Robert:
-------
i had a blast in winter hall my first year at [myschool], how do you like it?

anyway, i'm kinda busy this whole week, but we should go out for some coffee or rock climbing next week

rob

SomeGirl:
-------
[crickets and birds chirping]

Somebody'll find all sorts of GLARING things I did wrong, which is GOOD, I want you to find them, please.

Thanks
Rob

Forgot these...

Um... my school has 3 or 4 girls to every guy.

And I didn't have an event conveniently coming up, so I had to "make one up." Overwise I would've done something similar to what you suggested.

mixedmedia

sasKuach, darling...

Maybe you should start thinking about dating older women. Women who might appreciate your obvious eclectic charm and dry wit. If you are handsome as well...well gee, how absolutely horrible.

I loved your post and reading the title on the New Posts page made me laugh out loud.

Other than that I really don't know what else to say. Unless you're leaving out some minor detail, such as an arm protruding from your back, Tourette's Syndrome or a fondness for Barry Manilow, your predicament has left me clueless.

PS, I'm not trying to pick you up.

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777

Hmm... This is interesting. One thing I would try is to tape record the telephone conversation with the currant gal you're talking to. That was, you can listen to it, and see where you went wrong, and what you did right. Just be sure to check if tape recording a conversation without the other party's permission is legal in your state (it's illegal here in CA).

Also, the best advice I've hear, is that the first time you call her, just talk. Don't set a date. Just talk like before where you met her. Then ask her out on the second phone call.

I remember a guy who rarely had gals calling him. Because everytime he'd call her, he was trying to get something from her (a date). And since he started calling just to chat, his phone is ringing off the hook.

Simply put, if one thing isn't working for you, try something else. You can't expect to use the same method to achive different results.

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

hrandani

Alright, first off. I am down with every reason you ennumerated. Girls are in fact, the anti christ. Moving on.

Looks to me like you're going after the wrong type of girl. It really sounds to me like you're meeting girls in one environment then trying to pull the old switch on them afterwards and they're dazed and confused wondering what the fuck just happened, where did the hot bod they were ready to ride go and why is this timid geek trying to engage them in conversation. It seems to me that a girl confident enough to approach you at a party and compliment you on your looks isn't likely to be worried about being taken advantage of. In short, get thee some self confidence and move in for the kill.

e.g. here's what you should have said in that above conversation in order to remain in character:

HEY U WANT 2 POUND DOWN SUM BEERS LTR 2NITE??!?!

or

WANT 2 GO CLUBBIN LTR?

or the always trusty sleaze factor:

U BUSY LTR? I"M HOT 2NITE

Granted if you are interested in meeting girls which you'd be a better match for, it's probably not going to be at a party.

Disclaimer: I am a 20 year old practical virgin at a heavy party school (UTexas). I am in truth, the alluded morose hermit. I'm just going by what I see on a daily basis.

PS I seriously hope you die in a fire for insulting my WH40k figurine collection : ( SPACE MARINES! AAATTTACK!!!

1010011010

Do you always "ask" girls out like that?
To a girl that assumes that you get pussy by the bushel, how do you think the subtext of that comment reads?

Seriously, you're in college. Can I trust you not to date rape anyone? Go find a 19 year old that's unsupervised for the first time in her life, say "I've noticed you around. I find you very attractive. Will you go to bed with me?", and see how far you can get before you screw something up by talking too much.

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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

kel

Dead right. Meet girls in class by sitting next to one. Then compare notes. Then ask to study for a big test. Viola, a date.

Or, join a club. Stop working out alone and join a co-ed team or karate club or something. Join a language club, history club, chess club, whatever. Common interests will create friendship first and hotness second. That is the only way to go for a lasting relationship.

__________________
"It better be funny"

Carno

I doubt it's because he's in college. I know plenty of girls who are in college and who are not stupid and are not only about drinking and sex. You can't simplify people that way. There is not only three types of women at colleges, and if you think so then I feel very sorry for you.

Anyways, I have no idea why girls would not want to date you, if everything that you have told us is true. I really don't have a clue.

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Crack

Here's the jist of it.

I am (in all pratical measures) an ogre. A troll as it were. I am a bit chubby, my hair is slowly migrating from the top of my head to parts unknown, I don't find myself the least bit interesting, and to top it all off, I am not even in college (I am 25-26 in 20 days). I was married to a fairly attractive girl for 3 years right out of high school, dated a stripper, then one of the most attractive girls I have ever met. By all accounts, I have always dated "above my means". I wish I could tell you how exactly, I only know that withen the first 30 seconds of meeting you, a girl knows if she wants to sleep with you. They won't admit this, but it's true. For that first 30 seconds, if you play it wrong, she might flirt with you because it's fun, but in the end, you have 0 chances of moving on to the next step even if you did everything you could. Make your intentions clear. Don't be that guy that is embarrassed to show that you are interested in someone. I see guys that play it "coy" and "friendly" and that makes you nonthreatening. Being nonthreatning sounds good... in the beginning, but it makes girls run away and into the arms of asshole meat heads that will take advantage of them in their dodge trucks with Metalica blairing and calvin peeing on something in the back window. I don't know why, but it does (ladies?)

Maybe there is a problem with the way you are flirting? There is friendly "never going to sleep with this guy, so I can say pretty much anything I want to" flirting, and there is "I wish he would just kiss me and get it over with" flirting. Maybe look into that. Also, rock climbing? Why? Has that ever worked for you in the past? If a girl has never climbed a rock in her life, what makes you think she will be reseptive to doing it with some guy that she knows in her heart of hearts just wants to sleep with her? The coffee is good, it can be whatever she want's it to be, that puts a girl at ease, she can leave in 15 mins, and it was just coffee, or there can eventually be a meal if she likes you. But rock climbing is hours, hours she might be miserable.

So, to summarize, be more aggressive at first, then coy. Coffee > Rock Climbing and World Of Warcraft > WH40k

__________________
Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

Terminal Frost

I'm making a huge assumption, so I could be way off base, but I think that you need to be more "yourself." You sound like me, and I personally could not imagine meeting a girl at a bar, club, party, or even coffee shop. I'm 20 and I've had two long term relationships and I have lost my virginity. I say this not to rub it in your face, but to let you know how this has happened. I never went to any parties in high school except the ones that I had at my house and I never went out and hooked up with random girls that I met out on the town. Have you considered just finding someone within your close circle of friends, or even just a friend of a friend?

I'me sorry if I've got this totally wrong, but it honestly just seems to me like you're going about finding a girl the wrong way considering what you are looking to get out of the relationship. Others have previously stated, and I would like to reiterate, that you should look elsewhere for women. Start out slow. Find a girl that you think is interesting and attractive and get to know her, become her friend. Lots of people get really hung up on the "I can never get past the friendship stage," but if things don't work out then you're still ahead of the game because you've got a hot female friend, and guess what? She will have other friends that you can meet, too! Sooner or later something will work out for you. It sounds to me like you need to have the confidence to be who you are. You are thinking too much about what you need to do in order to get a girl. Doing so will only leave you frustrated. I became good friends with the girl that I am currently with and we spent months together before anything happened romantically. I think you just need to slow down and stop thinking about it and then it will happen for you. Not all girls out there are the same and they are not all looking for a quick lay. Yeah, there are plenty of girls like that in college, but there are also a lot of good ones (for people like me and you) who are looking for someone like yourself. You shouldn't have to change anything about yourself to find girl that you would want to have a meaningful relationship with. Think about it - it just doesn't make sense.

pig

sas,

with little else to go on: first question, do you ever speak to these girls in person, or is this entirely an msn thing? if its in chat-land, then honestly i have no information for you.

if its verbal communication, then i'm guessing there's something in your voice that screams "stalker." while your words are translated as saying "maybe let's grab some coffee this weekend" your tremulous voice is demanding "what kind of panties do you like shoved down your throat? i want see you every wednesday at 5. every wednesday!!!" chicks pick up on these things.

additional quick question: you're at said party, you're flirting with said ladies. what happens next? do you, through mutual unspoken volition, move into an isolated area, or do you break out from the party after a few laughs and not actually "hang out with them while they are drunk"? if the chick is all up in your business, and you just bust out...might not be the message she's looking for. i'd suggest you operate a little more in the moment, when the flirtation is going down. as you are finding out, it doesn't always carry over to the next day. I'm not saying take advantage of the girl, but they like little fuzzy moments, they're laughing and having fun and not worried about jack shit, and if they associate that with you, all the better. if your tongue ends up in her mouth, who's to blame?

what i can say is that if you've got 4-5 ladies in your jock every weekend, but you drive them away every week, something is up. if its not your direct wording, its your voice or your body language.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

sasKuach

You guys all gave me some good feedback so here goes...

@mixedmedia
I've noticed that older (~30yo) women seem to "get" me better. Otherwise, you *are* missing a minor detail, and it *is* a musical weakness, but I keep that shit under wraps!

@777
Awesome idea, I'll definitely try that the next time I call a girl. If for no other reason than to avoid being turned down. In the last couple of months I've adopted this caveman approach of "Let's go do something. No? Fine. Next! ....... Hi, how are you?" Maybe not the best? I should chill out like before I had the guts to ask girls out. I have to admit, with no goal (like asking them out) I was probably much more laid back.

@hrandini
Others I know have also mentioned that I might be acting incongruous with my image. Problem is I either have to learn to act like a movie badass or dress like Bill Gates. And I *am* going after the wrong kind, I know this, but the nice, normal girls around here get married at 18 and have kids or something. I just can't find them. I know I know, join a club, etc.

@1010011010
What? Maybe me not understanding your post shows a horrible lack of something on my part... I dunno, please explain.

@kel
See, this is why I feel like a retard for being single in college. Everybody just assumes hot coeds are carted in like produce. I'm a Computer Science major and I haven't had a female classmate since my last gen-ed class 2 years ago. My time outside of class is spent in the computer lab with people who are either equally eligible or married to their middle school sweetheart. I can only dream of doing like my roommate does and "get together and study" and wrap up the night by going for some drinks and more... A club though, is an excellent idea; I regularly go to the indoor climbing place on campus, but that hasn't panned out yet. I've learned to like climbing, if that matters...

@Crack
I've read about that, but I haven't been able to do this yet. I've done the first 30 seconds "properly" by accident once or twice but it got messed up about 2 months later. I definitely am the funny/polite/friendly type.

@Terminal Frost
I don't have many close friends, and those that I do pretty much left their friends hundreds of miles away. So the friends-of-friends thing doesn't apply. Plus, I've moved 3 times this year, so keeping in touch with friendgirls is tough. But yeah, you're absolutely right, I do better over the long run.

@pigglet
LOL... ahem. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. I just KNOW I'm chickenshit about "doing" anything with girls. Last party I went to the fire alarm went off and I found myself outside alone with this one girl. I KNOW I should've done something, but it was too fucking cold. Teeth chattering cold. Would you have tried it in that situation?


I think I wrote all that to avoid working on my paper, but I wanted to comment on what you guys said. Thanks again.

blade02

I also say "strike when the iron is hot". It can be taken as weird and not very confident for you to be talking to them in person, then wait till later to message them or call them and ask them out.

Im guessing in their heads, at the party you're confident, but then it takes you a few days to work up the nerve to ask them out.

pig

Well, first things first: outside, teeth chattering - tough to go in cold, so to speak. However, if you can pull the "gee whiz it's cold, you want my jacket..." thing - huddle for warmth!!! I'm not saying you need to necessarily get bizzy after the parties, but do something. I'm not even saying you need to do something after the parties, all I'm saying is that post party isolation is a well known route to get to knowing the person better, etc. People in the "real world" do this too. They just do it by leaving bars at 1 am. This is what you'll do after you graduate. Then, when you get too old to drink, you'll get them out of knitting circles and book clubs and denny's, but you'll still be pulling the whole isolation move. It sounds like you're saying that 1. these chicks are fliriting with you, but it sounds like you never engage too much. it would be easy for you to leave them with an overall so-so impression after that. if you then get in touch with them and you sound super nervous, then you're going to have hit molly ringwald or ally sheedy for it to work out. now, you're wondering who in the fuck are molly ringwald and ally sheedy, and why did i just reference them? and that's what you get for not being old. on top of maybe giving some body or verbal cues of nervousness, if your actual words are Tally Ho and Charge Ahead - I could see how that particular mixture might work out to a cool shot of the Stalker Special.

Good news is - time will work it out. If monkey and dogs figure out how to pair up and get it on, then you too will have success in this endeavor.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

loquitur

Saskuach, FWIW I'm an old geezer and have found that there is no "formula" in life for any situation, mainly because each person is different. You have to be comfortable with yourself and know what you are and are not comfortable with. Once you are relaxed with yourself you'll rapidly find what kind of person you are happy with and who you are not. Trying to "force" things isn't going to work. You need the personal peace first.

sasKuach

What you guys said rings very true for me.

pigglet, I did lend her my jacket; she was dressed up as a mermaid and wasn't wearing much and seemed to appreciate the gesture. Also, I don't really have a problem with isolating them, but I do sound nervous as hell contacting them afterward due to a lack of any liquid courage that may have been present the night-of. That's one reason I prefer messaging, but it really is an escape route.

The only time I 'moved' on a girl (who looked remarkably like Molly Ringwald, actually, but blonde) was this summer when I was sharing a cab home with her and was so trashed I didn't much care about anything. So I thought, 'what the hell' and started whispering some naughty things to her while playing with her earring. Well, she came over a few days later and we went for a long walk, ended up eating and having a few drinks together and making out for about an hour at my place. It was the only time I've been that direct about what I wanted, and it looks like it was well received. However, I then became nervous on the phone later and it really wierded her out. Also, I'm not the kind of guy to keep calling a girl. I don't know if this makes me a quitter, self-respecting, or non-pushy; thoughts on this?

@loquitur
I can totally see what you mean, and I'm VERY much forcing myself to do this. If I weren't doing this, I'd be home on Friday night watching the History channel or playing on the computer. I'm most comfortable doing these things, but they don't make me happy. I made a decision this summer that I would step out of my comfort zone and get used to interacting with girls. See post above about being a Computer Science major. I did what every geek does and went online to read stuff. While I've become quite good at keeping girls laughing and having a good time with me, no amount of reading online can give me the testicular fortitude to make my move.

hrandani

Here's a tip: Stop masturbating. You *will* get resolve.

Xera

I would like to address your issues here:

1. are these looser guys more productive in life because they get the hot girls, or do they get the hot girls because they are more prodictive? Women, like anyone else, do like the idea that there is security in their lives. I don't think I've ever really dated a guy because of his earning potential, but honestly, I think financial security does play a part in creating a sense of security associated with dating.

Also girls get self-esteem issues too. I never realized when I was younger that I was actually pretty. I thought all the cute guys asking me out were making fun of me. If my daughter, who looks just like me, weren't so damn beautiful, I would likely still believe that. Seriously, this is no joke, when I showed my FATHER pics of me at her age, he thought it was her new school pics.

2 and 3.Men get to choose who they go out with too. Girls are just pickier because, really, we can be. if men weren't so preoccupied with sex this would not be true, or if women were more concerned with sex, this would not be true, but since humanity is as it is, not much can be done about it.

4. probably. At least you got an education out of it.

5. Can't say I've ever really looked for pretty single college girls so I'm absolutely not able to comment

6. It would probably hurt, but as long as it's your own car and you don't turn around and file an insurance claim on it, don't see why you can't. I would think that might actually wind up hurting your chances of finding a good woman though. (yes I do realize that was a figure of speach, I'm just being a pain in the ass, that's the way I am.)

__________________

~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~

1010011010

You basically said that you had more important things to do than her...

I'd really have to watch you work to pin it to anything specific, but I think it boils down to you looking for a girlfriend/someone to date and the girls you keep meeting are looking for someone to have sex with a couple of times.

__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

sasKuach

Well... honestly I did. What can I do? Just wait to contact her after I take care of all my errands for the week?

Xera, I'm not necessarily preoccupied with sex, but that doesn't change anything. I honestly think girls are more preoccupied with it. I don't think that's why girls can be pickier, it's because they just have to sit there and look pretty and wait to be approached. Kinda like fishing. If they can just spot and reject the guys that are bad news, they're home free. Am I wrong?

analog

.........HUH?? Well that's about as gross a stereotype as i've ever seen.

Xera

nope, thats about the way it is. The reason it's that way however, is that men are willing to do the chasing. You can bet if the men weren't willing to chase there would be women running men down in the street, because the more I think about it, the more it seems you probably are right that women are in fact more preoccupied with sex than men are.

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~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~

Charlatan

You say you dress "metrosexual". Could it be possible that these women think you are gay?

You could be the ultimate in non-threatening. This is why they gravitate to you at a party, just like they would another woman.

When you suddenly ask them out they start tapping the gages on their gaydar to see there is some sort of malfunction.

Given how little I know about you, it's certainly possible.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

MechCow

You seem to be more concerned with not doing the bad things than doing the right things. You also seem to be putting women on a bit of pedestal with regards to your bitterness. You must remember women are not acting rationally and choosing the guy they think who is best for them, they are going with their "feeling on the night" which generally means waiting for the man who respects them the least but understands them the most to take away all that insecurity and tell them to suck his cock.

I have a great deal of respect for women, love spending time with them whether its sexual or not. I'm very good with picking women up, although I am pretty good once things get going.

The men I know who are really good at picking up women are the ones who harbour the most disregard for them. This disregard fuels their determination to fuck them.

My advice is next party instead of assuming women are decent and respecting them, treat them with interest but benial disrespect and e.g. express your bitterness at being fucked over. This is not easy and won't work the first few times, especially if your nervous (and girls can smell a virgin). But once you let it out in the right way women will compete to win your respect through sex, love, attention or whatever else you want.

sasKuach

Charlatan, you are probably right about me being "non-threatening", and I would also add androgynous.

MechCow, I think I know what you mean, and I think it goes with what Charlatan said about being non-threatening. Could you explain what you mean by putting them on a pedestal with regards to my bitterness?

So, um, how do I stop being overly-respectful and androgynous? I try my best to tease girls, and they often respond with this shocked look on their face, hit me on the arm and then laugh (for example). I tried to learn a lot from interacting with girls I don't find attractive, the ones that don't 'put me under their spell' so to speak, and I have to say that it's like night an day. The problem is that my mind often draws blanks when I'm around attractive women, especially during the first minute or so. It's during this time I find myself "flying by the instruments" and relying on socially acceptable polite talk. Once the converstation starts to flow, I'm ok, but by then I've made a bad first impression.

Charlatan

Don't wait a week to ask them out.

Strike while the iron is hot and ask them out sometime during the 30 minute party conversation.

I'd also second the join the club and get a hobby thing. It's one of the easiest ways to meet someone (i.e. the shared interest). I am sure you could be painting your Warhammer 2000 figurine only to look up into the eyes of another Warhammer enthusiast only to find she is looking right back at you.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

scottstall

Things that don't look androgynous, from the male side.
Jawlines (theres alot of ways to work on what your jawline looks like, even though its rather genetic). Short hair. Pants that aren't too tight, from everyones opinion. A torso that's a different color than your pants (tight black shirt and blue jeans is great, you can almost get away with anything in that, though you'll look rather plain). Non-delicate cheek bones. Adam's apples (hehe, that's how I spot transgender, but it's not exactly something you can work on. Oh, and its not guaranteed).

Now... Androgynous is also an attitude, which may be a problem as well.
Take for example, your example, that I don't think you meant to be used this way.

"I try my best to tease girls, and they often respond with this shocked look on their face, hit me on the arm and then laugh (for example)."

Don't tease. Your not teasing, teasing when your talking about flirting means leading people to think something thats not going to happen is going to happen. Thats what a "tease" is. Your flirting, and you have a goal in mind, and you probably want exactly what it is your flirting about to happen. They have a shocked look on their face, then they're probably surprised your actually interested in sleeping with them. This is not exactly bad, and you don't want to forget how to do this. Knowing how to make a friendship with a girl seeming like your always wanting to just be friends can be good. Learn to play your cards right and you'll get to know a girl who is extremely cautious about guys that want to sleep with her as a friend and then when you pop up as wanting to sleep with her, you already know her, she likes you, and she hopefully knows you well enough to believe it won't fuck up the friendship.

When they hit your arm... Thats your chance. Standing up for yourself is a very good thing to do to attract people from a guys side. And if a girl wants to attract the right kind of guy in my opinion, she'll stand up for herself too. What you exactly say depends on your relationship with them. Girls that hit you on the arm because you flirted with them tend to view you as a friend, so your probably not a casual acquaintance. They probably also think even if they say no, your gonna be around. Theres a couple of ways to turn the relationship sexual at that point, the most likely to work (and only the teensiest bit manipulative) is to shatter that expectation that your gonna be around, period. "Don't hit me, if I'm gonna get hit, even on the arm, I expect to deserve it. (you can stop here if you like, and all you've accomplished is asserting yourself). And what, you think I don't have hormones all of a sudden? (you can also stop here, and you suddenly reminded them that you are a guy, and like most guys, you occasionally want to sleep with a girl). Right now, friends are great, I love them, but I've got a good number of really good ones. I don't need another good one, or another friend at all really. I need to deal with these hormones, or rather, enjoy them.(and now, you probably just manipulated them)"

Theres an underlying message there once you get to the manipulated part... I have other good friends that I'll be spending time with if they sleep with me. Time with them means less time with you, and if the relationship with that "good friend" blossoms, I don't exactly need any good friends at all that are female. Most women believe, and are probably right, that guys best friends tend to be guys, until they get a wife. Even then, they maintain a best friend thats a guy, they're just also (hopefully) able to tell everything to the wife as well.

I don't like being manipulative, and I don't like telling other people good methods of doing such, but thats actually probably the truth in your case. A lot of your "good friends" that are female, you want to sleep with, and probably wouldn't be friends with if they flat out told you "I'm not sleeping with you, period, and ever, but we can be great friends." I'm assuming your not like me though, I thrive in estrogen. What I actually recommend doing, is going to whatever club/scene a girl would go to to hookup with someone, the kind of girl you want to be with. Be assertive, and conscious of your tone, and go up to a complete stranger and say "Hi, before I begin, is there absolutely any way whatsoever that if I say the right things, without lying about them, your going to sleep with me tonight."

I'd stop right there, because I usually like the girl to figure out on her own that sleep with me tonight doesn't mean I'm not gonna be there in the morning. You probably want to add

"Not that I'm not gonna be friends with you or anything, or maybe even turn into a relationship. Right now, I'm just some guy, and I need a girl to do what I want to do with. She'll get what she wants too."

Try not to put them on the spot in a crowd, she'll feel like she'll get labeled a whore if she says yes then. Oh. And don't lie about that she gets what she wants too thing. If you want a blowjob, and she wants head too, you better be ready for it. Being more open sexually up to a point will almost always make you a better prospect. Being more open sexually tends to indicate you aren't afraid of sex.

If you can say that with confidence, and you look attractive, someone will say yes. I did this at a few highschool parties where the good majority of girls don't want a random hookup, because visible random hookups in highschool are BAD for the girl. It worked twice, out of three times, with people that didn't know me directly. Then again, it could be the crowd of people the parties I went to catered to. You'd get booed if you tried to get people not to drink, but you'd also be called an ass and escorted away if you tried to get someone to beyond just offering them a drink. I wasn't horridly attractive, either. I showed a friend of mine my license at 16 and she said "damn you were a skinny fucker." At that time, people would say that too, until they saw my legs, which were very thick and muscular. I kept them hidden from view in baggy pants, unless for some odd reason I felt like showing off which usually backfired, as showing off tends to.

sasKuach

Charlatan, I was thinking of going to some dancing classes. It's just one of those things that I want to learn. Now that I'll be done with school, I'll have time for it.

Scottstall, I see what you mean by teasing, but I'm not as good at doing that; I probably misused the word. That's also a great example you gave on standing up for myself when hit on the arm. I guess what I do also goes along those same lines. For example, if she's fishing for a compliment and goes on about how bad her hair looks even if it's obvious she spent time on it, I'll say something like "I know, it's embarrasing. People are looking..." Or if she senses that I like her and she starts demanding stuff, I'll just jokingly tell her to buzz off. But my favorite is when we get to talking about age and she tells me she's 30 or so, and I tell her with a look of mock admiration "Wow, you're holding up well!"

These are some canned lines that I now just use automatically, and I have some more). I usually get a good response from these... such as her coming up to me later to talk some more or getting me a drink, etc. The problem is that I usually lose this ability when it's time to follow up. An exception would be the last time I had a successful date; I called up the girl and she immediately started talking and talking and talking... long enough for me to calm down The phone convo then went on normally.


Oh, and I prefer to wear dark wash jeans with a light shirt (usually tshirt). Mostly tight-ish, but not too tight. I think it helps to accentuate my torso. Otherwise, my hair is pretty short, while I don't have a chiseled jaw. Hell, while we're at it, I'm 6 ft tall and weigh 175 lbs.

Charlatan

The more I read, the more I am convinced they think you are gay.

No offence intended. I just think it something you need to consider.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Mantus

Despite everything you wrote I can’t quite get a bearing on what your problem may be. Sorry.

However I can give you insight on my beliefs concerning the “issues” you have and perhaps that can guide you in the right direction.

1) “Loser guys” can probably teach you a thing or two about getting girls. The first truth is that being a loser doesn’t stop one from being attractive to women. If that's true then perhaps there is something else that women want! What can that be?

2) Women get to choose because you allow them to choose. Yes it’s all a game, but it’s a game we have to play – trust me there are very good reasons why it’s so complicated – almost all courtship is designed to protect women. In the end though, women cannot choose who they fall for. If you are attractive to a woman you have all the power.

3) see above

4) I am 26 as of last month. If I had the knowledge and experience I have now when I was 17…well, lets just say the past is the past, the only thing we have to look forward to is the future. There is a saying: “The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time is now.”

5) Almost all attractive and cool girls are in some form of a relationship or another. Obviously! Don’t even be phased by it. Make your offer, if she accepts – cool. If not – respect her choice and move on. The dating game is...complicated. You have to understand that we have social dating rules but all rules are made to be broken and no one is better at breaking these rules then women. The important part is to let go of your judgements and simply enjoy your life and all the beautiful girls that are in it.

6) That would be an awesome story to tell! Not to mention it will pump your adrenaline and testosterone though the roof – you will GLOW to any woman that lays eyes on you.

sasKuach

Charlatan, none taken. Based on what you've read, what has made you arrive at that conclusion? I ask because you're not the first person I've heard that from.

Mantus, very good points.

1) You're absolutely right about that, but most guys I know have a formula that wouldn't work one bit if any variable changed. I thought I knew what it was that attracted women, but some here are saying that it's really just friendship behavior.

2) I would prefer if women packed guns as opposed to fucking with guy's heads. Not saying you're wrong or anything...

5) Sounds to me like you're telling me basically to keep plugging away at it and not giving up in the face of terrible odds. I mean, that's pretty much what I've been doing: respecting their choices and getting very frustrated in the process. Any tips on not letting this get to me?



PS: There are no girls in my life at all. I can't really "let it happen" like I used to be able to. Any ideas how I can change this? I feel the biggest challenge I have is that I meet girls once and never see them again. I don't have girls I see regularly (on the bus, in class, work, etc) that can warm up to me over time like I used to. Sure, I have some ideas for what I'll do once I finish school, but I'd appreciate any suggestions I can get.

Xera

In spite of some of the advice you recieved earlier, do not get rid of the tight fitting pants. As a woman that thinks "watching guys in tight jeans walk" is the BEST pass time on the planet, DON'T DO IT.

Dancing lessons are a great idea since there are usually more women then men in those classes. Women tend to like to dance more than men do. I know this because every woman I know says, "I love to dance" and every man I know says, "can I just have a beer."

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~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~

Nimetic

Re that second and third point.

The pretty women sometimes get quite a shock later in life. If you ask me, us guys get our own back there. I've seen some older women who are in mild shock at no longer being the centre of attention.

sasKuach

So I've been doing some thinking and condensed what I don't understand into a single question. Drumroll please.

I was reading some tips for women to spot guys that are bad news and it really left me scratching my head. It was a 10-point checklist of things to look out for, like talking on the phone while on a date, ignoring the woman, etc. These all ended in a sentence that pretty much said

"... if he's doing these things, he will not be 100% devoted to you."

or

"you won't be his center of attention."

It just pretty much hinted the guy had to be obsessed, to the point of ignoring his friends and duties, or else he was a loser.

EXCEPT for the last point that warned women of guys that 1) call too much 2) show up in unexpected places and so on. Basically, to watch out for stalkers who, coincidentally, ARE 100% devoted and make the woman the center of attention. Go figure.



My question:

Where is the balancing point here? Where is the sweet spot between an apathetic player and a stalker? How do you go about asking a girl out without her thinking "uh oh, he likes me too much, danger danger..."?

1010011010

The guy has to pay attention to the woman that's right in front of him, or else he's probably not the best catch. The girl right in front of you has to be the center of attention, quoth the woman's magazine.

Frequent calling or showing up unexpectedly signals that Mr SuperCreep is trying to catch the girl being less faithful. I SAW THE WAY YOU LOOKED AT THE BOY AT THE COFFEE STAND, YOU WHORE! Or something like that.

Just make shit up as you go. Focus on the girl while she's there, but out of sight, out of mind. If you run into her again at some point, again... make shit up as you go and make her the center of attention

__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

Xera

yeah, what he said.

Women need to know that when are with them, you are not preoccupied with something else. Preoccupation tells us, "you're not that important." however calling more than say once a day, and usually I would suggest no more than 2X per week at first, thats just creepy.

We want to be important, but we don't want you so focused on us that we can't avoid you when we want to.

__________________

~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~

match000

I disagree. He will sound the least nervous after he does it..

Wow, how eerily similar the situation is for the OP is for me. No, I'm not a handsome stud that girls follow around at parties, but a few pictures I have put online, girls have told my other friends that I look like a movie star.

Anyways, to the OP: I was in this situation earlier this year. Especially your point #4. I just graduated this year.

I am an engineer, so I understand your point about lack of girls in classes.

I have to say that that one point above (lack of girls in classes) mostly explains the predominant lack of female interaction or female friends we have. Basically, > 75% of my college friends are the same type of engineers as me, and most of my better friends all took the same classes as me the whole way through college.

Imagine now that you are not an engineer, but a psychology or biology major. Automatically, half of your class turned into women! Then, add the fact that you take the same set of classes with these ppl for 4 years! PLUS, you automatically share the same interests (same college AND same major!). Even if you dont find ANY girl to hook up wiht romantically in that situation, you would at least have a dozen girl friends who will hook you up with their hot / cute girl friends.

So really, the answer is that all engineers are screwed over in college unless they start doing a damn about the girl situation right from the start (like we have, but alas only at the last minute). Incidentally, the engineers with the poorer grades happened to be more successful with women (less time studying, more time hanging.. with everyone and girls)

So yeah, my advice is that what people have said above are good, and that don't dwell on the past, and be glad you realized your problem now and not later, and you still have plenty of time to meet people.