simivin

Well, I've done the standard search to see if this topic had been specifically addressed before, but didn't see anything I thought related closely enough. So here is my scenario:

I've been dating my GF for going on 7 months and our relationship -- ignoring some certain, irrational insecurities of ours on both sides-- is great in basically every aspect. However, one sore spot for her is a friend of mine I'll call Sarah.

Sarah and I have been friends for about 7 years -- since junior year of HS -- and were great friends senior year. Over the years we considered dating, tried for a short period that didn't last, and always ended up missing each other (she had a BF, I had a GF, or either of us had cold feet). We never did more than just sleep together (never even really kissed) and we still stay talk often and I've even helped her work through some of her current relationship woes. She's one of the best friends I have and we've always been close, recovering our friendship even when we pissed each other off.

Now, my GF knows about Sarah, and knows about our friendship together -- the common mistake (that I have made, too) of asking too much/telling too much -- and is very sensitive to the whole situation. Last night, my friend Sarah drunk dialed me a couple times (she has done this before, even when I haven't been dating anyone else) and this got to my GF; then my SO was upset/unhappy and then when we talked later today, she got upset about it all again and ended the phone call pretty quickly.

My GF is suspicious that Sarah is making moves on me or that there's something there, even though I assure her that 1) I wouldn't do that and 2) Sarah wouldn't do that (having the friendship that we do, never having cheated, and being recently cheated on herself). In fact, Sarah and I have always respected each other's relationships. However, nothing I was saying was making much of a difference and I fear that my SO other thinks I'm defending Sarah's side over her own.

That's a concise version of the situation. I guess my questions boils down to: is there anything wrong with my actions? What is too far? Am I going too far being close friends with this girl? The most that would be in "dangerous" conversational territory is when we've talked about what could have been, the times we "missed" each other, how much we care for each other (as friends), and stuff like that -- but never talking about doing anything in the present. Sarah has been an important part of my life for 7 years, through many different experiences, and I value her friendship tremendously -- but that doesn't mean I'd rather be with her than my SO. Still, my GF is sensitive about my friend, even though she doesn't want to stop us from being friends.

So, am I doing something wrong here? Do I need to modify my actions/behaviors? I don't want to make my GF anxious and upset -- and I do try to reassure her -- but neither do I want to cut off a friendship (which she doesn't want me to do anyway). Thanks for you advice; greatly appreciated.

Sim

ShaniFaye

I have a very close male friend....we've been friends for...god 20 years now...met him when I was 17..we too tried to "date", it didnt work we made far better friends.

We've taken trips together, share the same hotel rooms on those trips, we hang out, with and without Dave....when Dave goes out of town for work and he calls he usually knows that sometimes he'll find me with Mark.

I have no respect for anyone, male or female, that tries to say you cant be friends only....close friends...with a member of the opposite sex or who gets jealous baout it.

I see nothing wrong with what you've described.....IMO, for what its worth...I wouldnt date somebody that tried to tell me I couldnt hang out with Mark....and I have refused to date a few people that had issues with it.

The few CLOSE friendships I have with people....and I mean people that I would do absolutely anything for...anytime- day or night- are important to me, as they should be important to the person that considers themself to be my significant other.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

Well, a lot of it depends on her level of insecurity and whether or not she trusts you.

I respect Shani for her ability to trust. I know that I have struggled with this issue a LOT in the past, with every boyfriend I've had... have only just recently (over the summer) begun to feel differently about it. It has taken a lot of work and self-analysis on my part to let go of my knee-jerk jealousy and just TRUST my bf. Does your girlfriend ever apologize or feel bad later, for being jealous?

Momentary feelings are one thing, but if she doesn't feel bad later for not trusting you, I think that could be a problem. When ktspktsp and I have struggled with this, I usually end up talking it out later and we discuss my reaction. Communication and self-reflection is really key.

By the way, what was with your title?... it sounded a lot worse than it was. Do you consider it cheating, or are you saying that because your gf sees it that way? Let me ask you, when something big happens in your life, who is the first person you want to talk with? Your gf or your friend? I hope it's your gf, but maybe she doesn't know that because you might not tell her how you feel. I'd make it clear that she is an emotional priority for you, that there's no one else you'd rather talk to. There is something to be said for emotional infidelity... many break-ups/divorces have happened as a result of something that started out as "just friends," but I guess that's hard to control. Let's see what others say.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

doncalypso

Simivin,

Your girlfriend is overreacting... If something were to have happened between you and Sarah you two would've had sex together a long time ago and there would be nothing to keep you from being unfaithful. Obviously your girlfriend has insecurity issues. Maybe she was betrayed in a past relationship, or else she cheated on an ex boyfriend with a close male friend and is now afraid of getting a taste of her own medicine from you.

__________________
Doncalypso... the one and only Haitian Sensation

simivin

Thank you very much for the replies so far -- it's good to hear some others' insights. Here are some additional variables and comments that you might find pertinent:

- My GF and I are very, very open in our communication. It's a great thing and very valuable. However, sometimes we've asked too many questions or been too open, resulting in some insecurities on both ends (see some other of my posts for my end). We both recognize this and have been trying to work on ourselves individually; my GF has done a good job at this, overall, in my opinion, even if there are still things that her (we) struggle with. And yes, we apologize often to each other for this, because we know it isn't good, isn't fair to the other person, and is basically all that is hampering our relationship.

- We both have been cheated on in the past. Mine was a single GF; she, unfortunately, had a number of bad boyfriends that manipulated her, or cheated on her (or came close to the line), and just treated her poorly. That goes along with what you said doncalypso and you too abaya. It's hard for her to think that nothing is going on with how Sarah acts or how our friendship is (or with me...but she says she trusts me)

- Ironically, my GF's best friend is a guy she's known since HS as well. I ended up meeting this guy when a group of us went rafting, and was anxious about it myself (so I know somewhat where she's coming from), but tried to supress those feelings and not let it bother me; after meeting him, it doesn't really bother me much anymore. My GF thinks that maybe if/when she meets Sarah, it won't be so much of a big deal (otherwise she's this mystery), and so that's a possibility.

- Shani, I think that's great that you have friends like that and that 1) you're so trustworthy and 2) that your SO is so trusting. I can also empathize with your sentiment about not dating someone who won't let you be such friends. That's about how I feel -- my friendship with Sarah is important enough that I would consider breaking up with someone who desired to end that friendship. However, my GF doesn't want me to end it, to her credit...but it still bothers her.

- And you're right doncalypso: Sarah and I could have done something a long time ago. For whatever reason we didn't. As for our friendship, it has been like this since my senior year of high school, regardless of who we've been dating -- while we've always been close emotionally as good friends, nothing ever happened that I would consider cheating. Like I said, we've respected each others' relationships (although more than one has fallen apart because it couldn't handle our friendship).

- As for emotional intimacy, my GF is the person I go to first, even ahead of my parents. I mean, I know I could go to Sarah, but I choose to go to my GF because I want to; and I haven't even told Sarah some of the things I've told my GF. However, I don't think this means I can't have deep conversations with Sarah either.

So, I think that hit most additional points I wanted to say. Any other thoughts? Thanks!

Sim

PS: Abaya, yes, I know that title might not have conveyed exactly what I wanted, but I didn't really know how else to phrase it! I do think my GF thinks it is -- or is close to -- cheating, so perhaps it is appropriate from her perspective.

hambone

simivin,

First off, the world needs more people like you. You honestly seem to be looking out for the best interests and comfort of your GF. A lot of people would just take offense to their SO and blame them for their feelings. You, however, recognize that it is an issue to her. Period. And you are asking advice on how to handle. That is awesome.

Anyway, do I think you are wrong in your friendship with Sarah? No. Not at all. Your intentions are pure and you aren't trying to pull something past your GF.

I think you are addressing the whole situation perfectly. You and your GF are already talking about it and you have an idea how it makes her feel.

I don't think you will get any real solid advice from any party outside of the situation, so I will just say that I commend your handling of this and think we could all learn a lot from the selflessness in which you are approaching the problem.

You have decided that your GF is your source of 'emotional intimacy' and therefore are putting her feeling up at a high priority, maybe even to a slight detriment in your normal life operations.

Bravo man, bravo.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

ShaniFaye

quite honestly I dont see how, in a good relationship there is such a thing as "too open". Your SO is supposed to be the ONE person that you can tell ANYTHING too. Example....on a few occasions Dave and I have met Ratbastid....now....I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can tell Dave..."good god that man is sexy.....oooohhhh the things I could do to him" and I know that Dave would in no way feel insecure about anything. Maybe its just me....but its inconceivable to be that you can be too open with the person you love.

(forgive me RB...I needed a relevant example )

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

Some more thoughts:

1) Do you feel ANY sexual tension, whatsoever, with Sarah? Do you ever think about her when you masturbate? If you were single and she was single, would you do anything about it?

2) Explain how one or both of you (Sarah) have lost relationships in the past, because of your friendship?

3) Why hasn't your gf met Sarah yet? That seems key to me. Even if they don't become buddy-buddy, at least she can be reassured that Sarah is not a threat. Has Sarah reached out to try and get to know your gf (or in the past)? I think that might help, too. I find that with ktspktsp's female friends, the ones who made genuine effort to get to know me were the most trustworthy ones. Those who didn't, I never felt too comfortable around... not b/c of jealousy, but because I just thought they were rude.

4) Your gf might trust you, but she may not trust certain situations with you involved. I know it sounds silly, but this is another big thing I struggled with. For me, I wasn't afraid of my bf running off to have a one-night stand or something. I was afraid of him gaining emotional intimacy with another woman to the point where he might put more effort into maintaining that relationship than he did with maintaining (and working on) our own. Does that make sense? It is a pretty well known fact that most adulteries happen with friends rather than complete strangers... so there is some truth to that fear.

Still, it comes down to you and your gf and what you both can handle.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

Thank you, Hambone, for the comments and the nice compliments. I will say that my GF is also worthy of such words -- she has put up with my own insecurities and has been very patient with me. While those struggles exist, I think it's still a good sign that we try to work and help each other through them.

Shani, you know, I completely agree with you! I guess the problem is is that we still have some growing up to do (I am 22 and she is 19)...I know I certainly do. We talked a lot and told many things that we may not have been secure enough to handle at first or weren't ready for at that point of our relationship. Guess we're just trying to work through it now, since we can't take it back. Kind of a bummer sometimes, but hopefully not so detrimental in the long run!

Sim

ShaniFaye

lol simivin Im 37 and I could probably still grow up in a few areas. I know it sounds like Im coming down on you and Im not, I promise...like I said in my first post....I see nothing wrong with what YOU have done (or at least the way you explained it)

Communication is so so so so important in a relationship and it sounds like you ARE trying to make sure that line stays open between you two.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

simivin

Abaya, here are my responses to your questions:

1) There might be a slight amount of sexual tension but not much. Let me elaborate. I have thought about her and wondered, but not often and not much or anything I would consider significant; as for masturbation, I think she has flitted across my mind, but never more than a brief thought (I think the fact that I'm not really certain that I've thought of her says something). She is certainly not someone I think about often in that sense or fantasize about. If I was single and she was single, I would probably try to date her -- but not because there is this burning desire or anything. More just because we're close friends, we've had missed opportunities, and there would be a curiousity to actually try a real relationship. Really, that's how I think of her -- more just out of curiousity.

2) Well, only Sarah has lost relationships because of our friendship. When we were seniors, I asked an ex to Homecoming (I thought something was there and I was loyal -- otherwise I would have asked Sarah). Sarah went then went with someone else and dating him for about 10 months. At first I toned our friendship down a lot, because I didn't want to get in the way, but then after a month or two we picked up our friendship again. Anyway, I guess this caused a lot of tensions between her and her BF, but I never made any moves to even suggest her breaking up with him. Then I guess other relationships of hers fell apart because of me because, well, I guess she compared them to me or her feelings for me or something? She's been dating this other guy for about 10 months now, someone she really loved, and unfortunately has been going through some relationship problems (I guess I've been a thorn in his side before). I've tried to help her and offer advice as a (objective) friend, but I leave the decision making up to her (even though I think she should break up with him, since he violated her trust). The point is that neither of us has tried to make the other breakup or lose a relationship. I guess, after that long-winded recount, the answer to your question is just that the SOs felt insecure or had a problem with the attention we showed to each other as friends.

3) My GF hasn't met Sarah yet basically because of distance. I went to school out west and only recently moved east for grad school. However, I'm still far from where I graduated (even went to two high school) so haven't seen any of my HS friends in about 2 years...in fact, Sarah was the last person I've seen, and that was 2 years ago. So my GF hasn't met Sarah, but I haven't even seen Sarah in a long time! As for meeting, I wouldn't mind, but it would be hard at this point to do so without creating an artifical or awkward situation.

4) That makes perfect sense abaya -- and that might be some of what she feels. So the question is, how do we go about fixing that? And fixing that without sacrifing Sarah as a cost? I mean, I could drop Sarah as a friend, and that would help, but that isn't really what I want to do.

Thank you very much for your comments, abaya. You're all very helpful.

simivin

Haha, I know Shani -- we can always grow. I guess I just meant that my GF's and my insecurities are probably more common with our age group (although not exclusively)

Communication is so very important, and I'm thankful for the type of communication we have. Really, we can tell each other anything! It's just that some of the info touches sensitive spots...haha. But...we try not to let that stop us!

Redlemon

As has been said above, I think that the two girls need to meet. How far away is Sarah?

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

simivin

Well, my GF is about 4 hours from me and Sarah is also 4 hours from me -- not opposite directions, but still about 3 hours away from each other. And my GF doesn't have a car, yet, too.

What made it even worse was when my GF and I had some problems about a month and a half ago, again regarding Sarah. (I posted that time, too, if you want to read that: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=94191 Anyway, I guess my GF IMed Sarah and although she didn't think she was being mean, Sarah took it poorly. A couple days later I told Sarah that I thought the two of them would get along and she basically said that "no offense, but i dont really want to meet your GF after what [my GF] said"...now, that was right after a tough situation, and I've seriously considered bringing it up again. So maybe I will try to breach the subject with Sarah, again, to get an idea of how she feels.

I know they might not ever be great friends, especially after all of this junk, but I would like them to be friends; they're both great people and are both important to me and really, I think they're pretty similar in a number of different ways. Who knows when the opportunity will arise, though, to let them meet each other...

Sim

analog

your friend is being your friend, and your girlfriend is over-reacting, in my opinion.

Yeah, it's good to look out for the feelings of your SO, but this is a bit much. She's apparently given your friend some choice (read: bad) words that your friend didn't appreciate, and she doesn't really seem open to your friendship in any kind of way except what it seems she "has" to not to piss you off.

I think she just wants to meet her so she can finally pass mental judgment on her and say "ok now i've met her and i don't trust her".

Of course, this sounds like it might be "worst case scenario", but really it's the most realistic version of events i'd expect.

Good luck man, you're handling it well so far.

Redlemon

That's a tough combination of distances. However, it has been 7 years, so I can see how your GF might be wondering about Sarah ("If I haven't met her yet, what is he hiding?").

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

simivin

Analog, I guess that's a possibility, but knowing my girlfriend, I don't think that's quite the case. She's been hurt, she's sensitive to these things, and is honestly trying to get over it -- and I trust and believe her. When she says she wants to mean Sarah, I seriously believe that she wants to meet her, not to pass judgment, but just to see her as a person and not this "mystery" or "fear" that Sarah has become or represents. Kind of like meeting your SO's parents for the first time -- you might be anxious/nervous for whatever reason, but after the fact it isn't all that big a deal.

Not sure what you meant by the "7 years" Redlemon...I've been friends with Sarah that long, but Sarah and my GF are from completely different places, so it's more just circumstance than "hiding" that explains why they haven't met. Plus, it just seems weird to visit Sarah with the only pretense being so my GF can meet her. Or do you not think that's all that weird?

On another note, my GF called last night and we chatted for a bit. She felt bad about getting upset yesterday and wanted to apologize for letting things bother her. What a great girl...

Sim

dlish

would it make any difference if u had met a best friend after u met your girl friend. is this about time, or just friendship?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

simivin

Good question, dlishguy. I think a combination of both, although more with respect to timing. Right now, because Sarah has been a friend for so long before I was dating my GF, she's this unknown variable (until/unless they can eventually meet).

As for friendship, I think my GF wouldn't care as much if I became very good friends with a girl post-us dating; she would at least probably know the girl and our relationship would have already been established before I became friends with another girl. However, she might still be concerned if I started getting very close with this other (like as close as I am with Sarah), maybe thinking I'm losing interest, becoming more intimate with this other girl, or that this other person is a threat to our relationship. I don't know that that would necessarily be the response, but it is a possibility.

World's King

Send her packing. If she doesn't trust you or believe you it's not worth the trouble. If you were married you would just have to tell her grow up and get over it.

See, the problem is that women think men only have female friends hoping one day she'll take off her pants and bend over. Which for the most part is true. But men are capable of having female friends they don't wanna fuck. Most of these girls are ugly. We keep them around took make us look more sensitive. Like we really care about the oppisite sex. We don't. For the most part we hate you and if you didn't have that wonderful thing between your legs and the ability to suck a golf ball through a garden hose we wouldn't talk to you. We don't care about your day, your mother, or anything else you care to talk about.

But it does go the other way. Women don't like men. That like cock. It's that simple. Whe masturbation gets a little old a woman will go in search of a guy that's dumb enough to put up with her shit long enough to ride. Then once he wakes up and realizes he's been married for six years, has two kids, and scented candles in his bathroom he freaks out and bangs some chick he works with in the copy room.


I got off on a rant there...

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

MSD

Not to threadjack, but someone really should make a movie about you and what goes on in your head. I'd get hundreds of freinds to watch it with me while drunk.

5757

NOOO! Don't listen to him!!!^^ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



. . . . . . . actually, yeah. He's right.

__________________
Hey! Wait! I've got a new complaint, Forever in debt to ((your)) priceless advice. - Nirvana

dlish

for the most part King is right..but some of us an be human sometimes..

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

ShaniFaye

luckily my guy likes scented candles as much as I do....or more

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

simivin

You mean I'm not supposed to treat girls with respect, especially if I don't want to have sex with them? I can't just be friends with women but should have some purpose behind it? And I'm not supposed to sincerely care one bit about their feelings or their concerns? Damnit, why didn't anyone tell me sooner; I guess I've been doing it all wrong all these years! But seriously, if that's what it takes, I'm proud of doing it "wrong," then.

Sim

PS: And I like the candles too...haha.

World's King

See, the big problem here is that men do all this without thinking about it. It's not something we plan on. No man wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "I'm gonna treat women like shit and tear up all my wife's throw pillows." It's just something that happens. Once men reach 13-14 something in their brain kicks in. Oh sure, there are signs of it at a younger age. Hitting the girl you like for example. See, we like you enough to show you some sort of attention but we're still gonna hurt you. It stays like that all the way through life. We'll go to your mother's house for dinner every Sunday and pretend to help do dishes and clear the table but for the most part all we wanna do is drink a beer and fart on other men. Not to mention spending most of the night wondering how your mom is in the sack.

You can think you lead your life in the right way. Being nice and showing affection to women is all well and good but you know in the back of your mind that all you wanna do is bang three 19yr old Asian girls at the same time. Trust me. It'll come out in time. You'll be the guy that wakes up one afternoon after ten years of marriage and three dumbass kids with a dead hooker next to you and $500 worth of blow in your trunk. We've all been there.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

simivin

Hmmm, so now I'm also an automaton driven by my penis, without hardly any personal control? I'm at the whim and control of whatever primal, instinctual urges you claim men are subject to? Sounds like an awfully big excuse for any mistakes we (men) make, any immaturities we have, or a lack of self-awareness. "Damn, I screwed up and I should have known better. Oh well, I couldn't control myself, that's just how we men are." The sad thing is that my GF had to put up with more than one such person who treated her like crap.

But what do I know? I'm supposedly just hung up on the thought of doing 3 Asian girls at the same time

World's King

You're new here... Which means you don't know me very well. I'm sarcastic and blunt.


Men for the most part are uncaring and rude.

Women for the most part are bitchy and annoying.

These things are never gonna change. We've just developed ways to ignore and hide these traits. Like booze and pain killers. Mixed.

All I'm trying to say is that your girlfriend is acting this way cause all men are assholes and you're no different. I'm no different. It's not a judgement on your personality. It's a judgement on our sex. You think I like the fact men act like this? The only reason I'm so open and blunt about it is so women see that we are somewhat aware of our actions. You can't fix a problem till you know there actually is one.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

Rubyee

It doesn't matter whether you think what you are doing is wrong or not. If she thinks it is, than it is for her and you can't change her mind.

What you need to be asking is where you can find comprimise on this. If she isn't going to budge, than you need to consider what you value more- her or Sarah.

You could also change your friendship with Sarah- nothing drastic. Just asking her not to drunk dial and maybe hang out when you gf is there.

Right and wrong rarely matters in relationships if a comprimise can be reached.

__________________
You don't know from fun.

simivin

I guessed that sacrasm might be the case, World King, though I do appreciate your pointing this out for sure. And I know where you're coming from -- a fair number of both sexes do, in fact, fit those stereotypes, so it is reasonable that my GF might judge us so to some extent.

However, I don't believe it is entirely and absolutely that way. While I might just be deluded by self-righteousness (or just plain ignorant of the problem you cite), I don't think that I fall into the category of uncaring and rude; it's hard to be like that if you are aware of your own thoughts and actions and consciously try to behave in a certain manner. And therefore, I don't think every guy is like that stereotype, either.

From a broad perspective, I guess you're right -- the sexes, as an "institution" are too vast for one person to change by themself, and so we might as well just try to confront the fact. But if someone uses this as their excuse to behave incorrectly, that's where my disagreement arises (sorry if I have been taking you too seriously). Really, if people recognize that the way men and women generally act is a bad thing, that it is a problem that should be fixed (as you imply), then how does concluding that things will never change help solve the "problem"? I guess that's all I wonder -- if someone knows they fall into that stereotype, and concedes that it's wrong, why don't they do anything about it (when, in fact, they can)?

Rubyee: you're absolutely right. I don't think I have been thinking along those lines enough; I had been looking at it too black and white. If another conversation about Sarah comes up, I'll try to ask my GF for her suggestions as to how compromise. Thanks for the input.

Cheers,
Sim

hrandani

King you are a dyed in the wool badass and my personal Hero.

abaya

Sim, I have the exact same argument with myself every time my bf and/or I do something that conforms to the stereotypes of our sexes. And believe me, it happens A LOT more than either one of us, both highly-educated liberal-leaning individuals, would like to admit. I am also an anthropologist and would like to chalk every pattern up to culture and socialization rather than biology (gender differences).

HOWEVER. I have to confess that the longer I am in a relationship, the less idealistic I can be about these differences. Regardless of whether or not these differences are biological or social at their root, they exist, EN MASSE... and it's hella hard to change them, even in ourselves.

So I think King's point (and Rubyee's) is that if you can start off by recognizing the massive gulf between two people, stereotypical or totally unique!... THEN you can start to build bridges and compromise. I don't think King's saying you should just chalk it up to gender and walk away... you have to stick around and see just how much compromise is possible between the two of you, and see whether or not you can both live with that level of "perpetual, mutual sacrifice" (sorry, William Blake chiming in here).

Good luck, hope this didn't wander too far...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

World's King

dyed in the wool badass?

Thanks. Do you have any reasons for this or just a statement?

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

tecoyah

You are a lucky guy....you get to learn the hardest lesson women have to teach us early on. It likely wont be fun, and usually sucks badly for awhile, but is valuable in the long run. Fortunately, as is often the case here....you can gain valuable perspective from the wonderful members of this community....yes, even King. Women have a tendency to test men without intending to, much as we men test them, but only realize we do so after the fact.
My advice is simple....look somewhat deeper than you currently are at the reasons for this situation...and then act on what you see.It may be the best thing your relationship has ever had.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

abaya

As usual, Tec speaks from VERY good experience. And you are lucky... I think most guys get jaded by their early experiences with women before ever trying to learn (and change) as a result... by the time they realize how much they're missing, they're too bitter for anyone's taste. I think this goes for women as well as men, but men are (sorry) a little more notorious for being slow learners, esp. in relationships. Learn what you can NOW, and without losing her, if possible.

And yep, try to understand how YOU are testing her, as well... most guys don't see this side of things, only how *they* have every right to be pissed off at the woman.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

Perhaps I am learning a lesson, Tecoyah...I very well may be. But I don't think so, not with this girl -- at least not in the manner you are referring to. We communicate very well and openly and have had an exceptional amount of discussion about our individual problems/differences so I think we're pretty aware of the deeper reasons. We both have our personal insecurities, which are, in fact, (ironically) pretty gender stereotypical I think:

- A long-time girlfriend of mine cheated on me a couple years ago and I didn't seriously date anyone else until my present GF. I think I'm somewhat afraid of commitment, of loving/being loved, overthink my feelings, and am tentative with intimacy. Furthermore, I've felt the standard male jealousy about her past sexual experiences: she's had sex with 7 other people, but she's my only one, so I've felt a mix of feelings there. I know that my feelings are stupid, immature, insecure, jealous, and wrong. So, I'm trying to get over all of it. Finally, I know I think way too much -- sometimes I feel like I can't control my thought processes -- so I'm working on that too.

- Her parents were extremely protective and conservative and didn't really teach her about sex; she moved around a number of times, and that, combined with her parents, made her quite unhappy. In some sense, she looked to boys for happiness and for the love that her parents didn't show clearly enough. Additionally, since she is very kind, caring, and extremely loving and hard working in a relationship, it was easy for guys to get what they wanted. They manipulated her, cheated on her, and used her. She's put them behind her, but realizes that there is some extra baggage, some emotional neediness or possessiveness, and some bad habits that have been ingrained to whatever level. So, she is confronting her own insecurities too.

That's a concise version, but the point exists nonetheless: we see we have our own problems and that these problems affect our relationship in ways that we aren't happy with. Since we are both the kind of people that try very hard to fix things, we are working to fix ourselves. While we're still not perfect, we are both making progress.

But I agree, Abaya, that there are certainly some things that are innate in both sexes, that almost no amount of concentration will change. I wasn't trying to say that with enough work one can abandon association with a gender and become almost "asexual." I just meant that if someone acknowledges that certain stereotypes are present and also bad (such as guys being uncaring or rude, women being bitchy or annoying), and if enough effort is put in, they can make progress in those areas, albeit not eliminating the difference between men and women altogether.

I'd like to think I have some idea of what I'm talking about, since I have a degree in psychology and am getting a MA in philosophy, but I'll admit, it's still entirely possible that I am full of crap!

Sim

hrandani

No real reason. I just love your posts.

abaya

Let's hope so, for the sake of all of us!!

Sim it sounds like you BOTH have some baggage to deal with... which is normal. Cut the girl some slack and tone down the intensity of your friendship with Sarah for a good while, enough to show that you honor and respect your gf's feelings. If your gf is as cool and self-aware as you say she is, eventually she will realize what an arse she was being, and will trust you more (at least, that's how I would feel) and you can get back to normal with Sarah.

I would think that just your gesture of wanting to make her happy, even if she's making an unreasonable request, should bring her back down to rational-reasoning level, eventually. And then from there, maybe she can meet Sarah, and the three of you can try to hang out together now and then.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Lead543

I'd be annoyed if one of streak's drunk lady friends phoned continously while we were on a date, and yes, watching T.V. in his basement counts as a date to me. If you make it known to your gf that she is the most important lady in your life and yes you care about your friend but ultimately she comes first.

Redlemon

Sorry, I misread "7 months" as "7 years" for the timeperiod that you were dating your current GF.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.