SERPENT7

Simivin,
I understand all of her baggage, and why she feels this way, but she IS over-reacting.
Having said that, I also realize that americans have a very exclusionary way of looking at dating/mating/relating. We tend to be irrational about monogomy, to the point where an SO is not allowed to find fulfillment outside of the SO/SO bond.
I find this WAY too confining, and have long ago broke my wife of this.
I think it is really cool you have someone to talk to, regardless of thier gender. Be honest w/ your SO, and make sure she fully understands how much your friend means to you, (and don't screw her) and all should be fine.

Eweser

Simivin,
It sounds like you both are making a great effort at your relationship. However, I find it hard to agree to change your relationship with your friend. I somewhat understand what you are facing. Because of the limited contact I had to other girls my age growing up, I find it much easier to have friendships with guys. One of my very good friends is a guy and my husband had a real problem with it...almost to the point of divorce. I refused to let him make me lose that friendship (as I don't have too many anyway). I just tried my best to show him that he was the one I wanted to come home to, be with, have an intimate relationship with, etc. Eventually he accepted that my friend is just that, a very dear friend and not a threat.

I don't know if this is any help, or even relevant, but keep working. It sounds like you two are great people that know that relationships take work.

__________________
"Whoever wrote this episode should die!"

Dragonknight

I can't really say anything new, so I agree with what most of the previous comments have stated.

1. If your friend is just/only a friend, then you should have no problems keeping her as such.

2. Your GF is younger then you and that may cause her a certain amount of paranoia/insecurities. Live with them, but only while continually trying to ease/erase them. Constantly remind your GF just how much you care for her and only her.

3. Good friends are some of the hardest things to keep hold of. Don't loose one of the things that not all people can say that they have. A close relationship with an old friend.

Good luck with your situation, and remember to keep patient. Anything can be accomplished with time, even getting over relationship fears.

klined

Definately, some people need a little face to face to get past any jealousy.

simivin

Well, an update for those interested...

The last couple weeks had been rather hectic and stressful at times with my GF. A couple weeks ago, I was talking with my friend (Sarah) because she was having relationship problems; lo and behold, my GF calls right as I'm getting ready to finish that conversation and when I talk to her, she is pissed and unhappy and upset. I try to calm her down and I tell her that it hurts that she doesn't trust me at all, that she isn't giving me a chance. Ok, that seemed to work, but the next couple days, I was so frustrated and bummed out that I called things off, but we decided to try some more (and I would be more patient and she would be more trusting).

A week goes by, I think things are ok, and then out of nowhere my GF is upset because Sarah hasn't written her back (my GF wrote an email trying to be friends and trying to be accepting of Sarah and my friendship; Sarah didn't have a clue how to respond). My GF is very upset, and then gets more upset when I remind her that I was going to visit Sarah in a couple weekends for her birthday. My GF works through it, but at this point, I'm feeling pretty disillusioned and tired. I worked through it, but now I'm thinking, "I can't take too much more of this, I'm unhappy, etc." Even my GF admitted that things seemed harder than they should be. We had a good weekend and a fun Halloween party at her place, but my perplexity wasn't going away all that fast and I was stressed.

So last week, I'm feeling pressured and stressed because I was going to visit Sarah that weekend. At this point, I'm not feeling confident in myself or my feelings or anything; rather confused and unhappy and stressed and not sure what it's going to be like to see Sarah and how I'd feel, etc. I told myself that if my GF breaks down again, I don't know that I can take it anymore and that will have to be it. Well, my GF seemed upset on IM and asked "Promise me everything's going to be ok [this weekend]". I couldn't promise because I was so stressed and upset about everything that now I didn't know anything. But, my GF and I talked and she calmed me down, and afterwards I felt better.

Enter this weekend. My GF and I were writing emails back and forth, trying to just be relaxed and such, even though I knew she was kind of worried. I thought things were ok. So Sarah and I went out on Sat -- went to a museum with her and her friends, went to dinner (just her and I, because her friends ditched), and then went to a bar with her friends. We danced and had fun, but nothing happened whatsoever. It was weird because people (and some random people) commented on how cute a couple we were and such, but both of us would exclaim that we're not dating. And Sarah and I both consciously knew and recognized that we needed to be faithful and respectful. I slept over at her place and she said I could sleep in her bed ("and I won't touch you") but I said no, I'll sleep on the floor, because I didn't think my GF would appreciate that. Did I periodically wonder about Sarah, especially with the comments people made? Sure I did. But it wasn't anything I was planning on acting on.

However, my GF called at 5 in the morning -- but hung up before I could answer it. Then she called at 9 in the morning. Apparently, she had gotten on my IM to check Sarah's away message, got bothered and anxious and drank 8 beers, alone with nothing going on, tried to sleep, couldn't, and called me. She called again right after the second time, to apologize. We've had our problems and our issues, and this weekend was a stress on both of us, but I had thought that we could get past it; however, at this point, though, I was disappointed and even more disillusioned. So, I thought about things, talked to my parents about our situation, and called my GF that night and told her I wanted a break/breakup because we obviously both have things to work on. But was I wrong? Should I have given her another chance? Part of me feels no, but part of me feels I should have given a little bit more time.

We talked a little the last couple days and decided we wouldn't talk anymore for the next 3 or 4 weeks, giving us time to reevaluate things. I know I need to figure things out -- I know I haven't been the best boyfriend for her and I've been disappointed with myself throught the relationship. Maybe I haven't felt like I want a serious relationship at this point, no matter how much I care for her, or perhaps I've also been frustrated with what our relationship turned into (since we're both great people).

Any comments or thoughts or advice on everything above? Also, I just don't know what I should do or how I should approach things. Should I just try to move on? Should I try to get out and meet some people/girls (I've recently moved here for grad school and all my friends from undergrad are elsewhere)? Should I try to see how things go with Sarah, since that has never been explored? I obviously am not of a mind to rush into another relationship, but more just want to try to relax and take things as they come. Or, should I just hold on until I talk to my GF? So many things convoluted our relationship that it has become hard to discern my actual feelings or emotions.

So that is that at this point. Thanks for any further thoughts.

Sim

little_tippler

DOUBLE POST - DELETE ME

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

little_tippler

ok, I may be biased, but I think I'm one of the few people in this thread who maybe has something to say for how your girlfriend was feeling about your friend.

I am a very trusting person and can be quite blind at times in certain situations. It sucks because I always hit the ground hard when my trust is broken. Even today I still do, although I say I've learnt from my experience.

I had a boyfriend I was with for 2 years, who was important to me at the time. We were very open and once he told me that at 17 he had lost his virginity to an older woman, who was also a friend of his mom's. She still was when he told me. Nothing had happened after that one time. She was now a single mom of a little girl. I had to meet her but didn't think much of it. I never liked her much but kept it to myself and was nice to her. Occasionally I'd have to see her at family gatherings but that was fine. One day my boyfriend didn't pick up the phone (at night) for some hours. He later called me and said he'd run out of battery. I thought nothing more of it. Fast forward to three months later, when he came out and told me that on that night he had driven her home from a family thing with his mom, and then he'd gone up to her house and one thing had led to another and she had kissed him. I'll never know if that's all that happened - like I said, hours passed. I'm sure you can imagine how angry and stupid I felt.

I don't like friends who were exes. If someone wants to dump me for it go ahead. My current SO has a friend who is an ex and he was with her for a year. I trust him when he tells me that he would never do that to me. I have never said to him I don't want you to be friends with her. But it's in my head. I don't like it.
I would be fine if she was a friend and only that. But he had a relationship with her. Luckily for me they are in different countries so I don't have to face it that often.

In your case, you see her often, talk to her all the time, and there is some sexual tension. If you tell your girlfriend that, how do you think she would feel? Maybe you should turn it around and put yourself in her shoes. If she had a male friend who she had dated for a time, and when you saw her together with him everything was all so palsy and touchy and giggly, how would it affect you? (Not assuming that this is what you do, but if you're good friends then you must certainly laugh together, rib each other playfully and act like good friends occasionally, just translating what your GF will see)

I'm not saying she shouldn't accept it. But the fact that even other people who see you together say you look like a cute couple suggests that the way you act together is probably not a "strictly friends" type of situation.

I know this is one of those situations where you feel torn between friends and girlfriend, but if you want to be with her seriously (your GF), then you should think whether you could tone things down with your friend to not cause her distress. Yes it's your friend, that pal for life, I feel the same about my friends. But your girlfriend, if you feel that way about her, could also be for life, your soulmate. Or not.

Just one more thing...the fact that you have broken up with your girlfriend and that you are already straight away considering the possibilty of pursuing things with Sarah, means it was there all along. Your girlfriend obviously had a point.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Redlemon

Do you still love GF? Do you have any fun with her? It sounds like you are more relaxed hanging out with friends (i.e., Sarah) than with your GF as a couple. It's only an 8 month relationship; it's not like you have picked out china patterns already. You aren't obligated to stay with her.

Every relationship goes through rough patches, but if you don't see it getting better, don't stay.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

alansmithee

I agree with this 100%. You say there was nothing for your ex-GF to worry about, but the minute you break it off you immediately start thinking about starting a relationship with your friend, despite supposedly not being ready for another relationship?

And after reading the thread, I don't see why you couldn't have brought your GF with you for your friend's birthday. I would think that would give the perfect opportunity for them to meet each other in person, without it being too forced. And if your friend is really as close as you say, I don't see how she would mind making some small concession for you to have your GF with you.

Personally, I think that you wanted a relationship all along with your friend, but neither of you wants to risk losing the friendship. So instead of trying to be together, you doom relationships with other people. But I could be totally off-base here, only you know what's really in your head.

simivin

Well, I think you've made a lot of good points, and things I've considered before. My (ex) GF's best friend is a guy, and I've had to deal with that and did ok getting past it. One of her past lover's hangs around periodically, since he is a good friend of her brothers, and that makes me feel terribly awkward (she was my first, so I have little experience in that area). I have had to deal with it, and I know I've failed, in some sense, because it has bothered me. I did try to see from my GF's point of view, but I know I didn't reassure her as well as I should have, especially because I was honest when confronted about my thought regarding Sarah.

Maybe Sarah and I were too friendly -- I mean, we were drunk and she was leaning on me while we were on the metro, and people might just assume that we are dating, but we've generally been like that since high school anyway. As for bringing my GF, she lives 4 hours away and doesn't have a car, so while it was possible, I guess, I didn't really think it was feasible.

As for considering Sarah, yes, the thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not even sure it's something I want to do; really, if it was that high an interest, I'd figure I'd be more inclined to pursue her. My friendship with her is more relaxed than the tension-filled relationship with my ex, which is appealing, sure. Maybe I have wanted to date her all along and I've just been trying to supress that or ignore that feeling (that might be the case). It would be nice to finally resolve some of the curiousity both of us has felt for six or seven years, sure. But I'm really not sure I want that over my ex. Bummer of a dilemma, and one that only I can figure out, I guess.

I don't know. Part of me feels like I might just be beating around the bush, ignoring what is really there, or trying to force myself into something that I subconsciously don't prefer. Maybe the fact that this is a possibility says something, I don't know.

Sim

PS: I had a similar situation little_tippler. Was dating a girl for over a year, let her go to prom with her best friend (I was 3000 miles away, but trusting), and she ended up cheating on me. Seeing as how she was my last serious girlfriend, I think it's easy to see why I have so many issues, myself.

simivin

Oh, and another thing on considering Sarah, or any other girls for that matter. Some of my attitude is to just take the time and opportunity to figure things out, not just rush off into another long relationship. Honestly, I don't want that right now.

Daoust

EDIT. Didn't read original post properly.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

abaya

I'm not saying anything bad about you, but if I was your gf, I would have broken up with you months ago once I realized how close you were to Sarah. It would be fine if your gf didn't mind playing second fiddle, but if she values herself, she'll move on from you.

There is something un-platonic about your closeness with Sarah, if you ask me (since she isn 't your gf). As much as you spent energy denying it, here it is, right back out there... in your own words. All I can say is that women's intuition is usually quite accurate. Not always... but often. Give your gf a little more credit instead of blaming her for not trusting you, eh?

I'd say you'd better date Sarah sooner than later, get the sexual tension out of the way, and get your "curiousity" for her out of your system before it sabotages any more relationships for either of you. Who knows, maybe she's been the right one for you all along...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

Thanks for the honesty, Abaya. I know I'm a jackass with all of this. I've felt horribly about everything, because my own problems/confusion has led to everything and to my GF's heartbreak. It's sad, because I really did try to be the good boyfriend; I did try to be her knight in shining armor, etc.

Yes, maybe there is something un-platonic with Sarah; I don't know for sure. Sure, now I can date Sarah. For the reasons you said, I'm partly of the mind to -- even though that will make my (ex) GF think that's what our breaking up was about (though I sincerely don't think so). I could get the curiosity out of the way, we could explore our feelings and enjoy some of the excitement that always brings, and who knows, maybe we are right for each other. Other people have thought so.

Part of my problem, from my last serious relationship a few years ago, is that I am far, far too critical. I see so much good in so many people, but as soon as I get close to someone, I have tended to dwell on the negatives. I hate this, and it certainly wasn't fair to my girlfriend. And really, it might be exactly the same with Sarah (which is kind of what my GF and I thought, once I had seen her). It would put her in a realistic perspective, rather than what my GF and I, through our fights and problems, had made her out to be. And it basically did.

But, right now, I wish I could go back three days ago and be more patient with my GF. I wish I had been more forgiving and tolerant of what she was going through. I wish I had given things more time to see how we really are without Sarah being the issue that she was; maybe my GF would have been over it now. I wish I had been encouraging and accepted her behavior rather than blame her for it. I tried to think about things; I tried to step back objectively and consider how I had been feeling, how unhappy I had been in the relationship, and the chance for improvement; I had talked to my parents. And in the end, that's what I thought was right. And now, I regret it. Maybe things wouldn't have improved, but I think they would have. Maybe my feelings for my GF would have been too damaged, but maybe not. If I had to pick right now, I would pick my GF over Sarah.

And you are right about giving her credit. In retrospect, I know I didn't do a very good job of reassuring her. While I think that her pressure did escalate things, that is no excuse for me failing to do a better job. I'll certainly raise my hand and accept responsibility.

So now I don't know what to do. I want to be back with my GF, but it's not fair to her, not with everything that's gone on, and with my own problems. I want to give her everything she wants, but I don't know if I can -- whether because I cannot, or because I lack confidence at this point. That probably means I shouldn't date her, at the very least for her sake -- because I don't deserve her. So maybe I should date Sarah, even I'm not strongly inclined to, but I have the opportunity to see where it goes.

*Sigh*. And to think I used to pride myself on being the "simple man" who only needed love to be happy. What a wretched state I feel I am in; how far I feel I have fallen.

abaya

Same here, simivin. Your last post was extremely honest, so thank you in return. I can really feel the confusion and sadness that you are going through. It ain't easy... but you've made a tough decision, and now you gotta follow it through.

Maybe other TFP'ers will disagree with me, but I want to encourage you to find someone (maybe Sarah, maybe someone else) who will be both your lover AND your best friend. Where you will have everything that you need in one person. I know that's not always possible... and of course, outside friends are essential for both people... but I find it very, very difficult for MOST people (not all, and again, the TFP is full of people who are not in the norm) to have a best friend of the opposite sex while romantically involved with someone else. It is just too difficult to maintain that level of intimacy with two people at once, unless you are an exceptional person (not saying that you aren't, but I can tell you that I certainly am not, at least in that way)... and even if you can do it, your SO might not be cool with it. So it goes.

Let us know how you are doing, alright? For what it's worth, I am just really impressed with your honesty here on the TFP. From your OP to the most recent post, it seems you've explored a huge range of emotions and actions, and I sense that you are really growing here. Most guys (and girls) would never be this honest... they would go on covering up whatever it was they were denying (even to themselves), for the sake of preserving their pride and "sticking to their story." Thank you for sharing your process.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

Everyone's been very kind and helpful, but especially you, Abaya. I am slogging through a vast amount of confusion here, which makes it so tough -- if it was clear cut "I love her and want to be with her" or "something's wrong, it's time to move on", I probably wouldn't be here posting.

I feel that my GF is -- or should be (remember, I've been confused over the last couple weeks as all this built up, so things became more opaque than they should have been...part of the problem) -- my best friend. She knows me far, far better than anyone else. We have a myriad of similar interests -- we love the outdoors, the same activities, same amount of going out or staying in, are intelligent, caring people, and want to make each other happy (although she has been better at that than me, unfortunately). Furthermore, we also match extraordinarily well sexually -- she is (was) willing to do anything, basically, as was I. The only real difference is that she has had a number of other partners, and she has been my only one.

After talking on here, and also talking to someone in my grad school dept (who is a very frank and honest woman), I think I'm starting to get a bead on what my problem has been with my GF. Yes, we may have started off on the too fast and thus on the wrong foot, yes Sarah has been an issue, but I don't think my problems stem wholly from that. I think the root of it is a fear of commitment, heightened by a number of factors. Let me explain.

Before my GF, I had been single for most of 2 years and I sincerely felt I was ready for a long term relationship; I knew what I wanted and what type of person I was looking for (which my ex matches very very well). I had dated here and there, but nothing really serious, and messed around with a few girls, but not many. Furthermore, I went to a military school, so the discipline was restrictive, it was time-consuming, and prohibitive to living a "regular" college life. I start dating my GF and have sex for the first time, but I was self-conscious about waiting so long and being so inexperienced, I thought about the fact that she has more experience than me, etc. I think somewhat common feelings. Then I go off to a civilian college for grad school, going through a huge transition in my life, etc. My GF accompanied me on a lot of it and has been a big supporter of me, and my future, so there was nothing wrong in that sense. She really matches everything I'd want in a spouse -- from the friendship, to the love, to the loyalty, companionship, sex, cooking, you name it.

And I think that's why I've had issues with her, why I've been anxious, why I've maybe considered Sarah more than I should have (when I was in such a great relationship). Because I'm scared of that commitment. I'm 22 years old, and this is "marriage material." Here is a girl who is great for me, and well, that's it. Whoa. And since it scares me, it's kept me from seeing her for who she is and for appreciating her and what we have. Add on to that that I kind of feel that it isn't fair that she's had past sex partners and I haven't (not because of a lusting desire, but from more of a life-experience perspective), that I feel like I've been cooped-up the last few years, that I've become far more outgoing the last year or two, that I haven't dated around much, that I've missed some growing up, etc, and it seems reasonable why I've felt uncomfortable when I shouldn't. Hence, I felt uncomfortable, so I was more sensitive, judgmental, critical, and not as great a boyfriend as I should have been and am capable of. I know we should take things a little slower and more relaxed (we realize that's part of our problem), but it is hard. We tried backing off before, but it didn't really help; I think it's just the nature of our relationship, in some sense.

And that's why it's so tough, Abaya. It isn't clear cut. I think I know the problem lies with myself, and I want to fix it, but I'm not sure how best to do that without throwing away a great girl and someone I want to see something happen with. Sure, I can date around, but I just tossed my girlfriend away and, in her mind, she may never let me back in. I can stay with her, but risk being uncertain still and thus not be fair to her. I can try to sleep with a girl in the next few weeks -- to get that experience "under my belt" and exorcise that "demon" -- but I've never been that kind of guy and I can't be certain that would solve the problem. Or, so as not to thread-jack completely, perhaps this is about Sarah and I just don't know it (or let myself realize it). Who knows, although I think more of the former.

My GF even has even said it -- if we had met 5-10 years down the road, with all these issues worked out, we wouldn't have any problems. I've thought that -- as adolescent as it may sound -- if I had had sex with a girl I met a month before my GF (who, ironically, didn't want to have sex with me b/c I was a virgin), I wouldn't have had the same anxiety issues and likely not the same commitment issues.

So, recommendations on what to do? I miss my GF. I want to make myself right. I want to be with her and have more confidence in myself, and in myself in the relationship. Maybe we wouldn't work out, but we haven't had a very good shot yet, I don't think -- but it's not fair of me to go back to her with all these personal issues myself (none of which I thought existed before this relationship). Any suggestions? Or any other comments/insight?

Gracias,
Sim

abaya

Let your ex-gf read this thread, or at least your last few posts. That's the only thing I can imagine would put your heart at rest. Wait and see what other TFP'ers say...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

simivin

She has read the TFP sometimes and she knows that I come here sometimes looking for advice. It wouldn't surprise me if she has read it (although I tried to ignore that fact in what I said).

Oh, and another possible, worthwhile thought. Ever since I've moved here, I've spent almost all my weekends with her (8 hrs of driving; she wasn't able to get a car yet). The driving sucked, but it also kept me from meeting and really getting to know people around here, so my whole friend base is gone -- except for my GF, Sarah, and the folks online, basically.

Other TFPs, feel free to chime in.

PS: And now I'm upset that I got this "ball rolling". I wish I could go back to Sunday and make different decisions. We were planning on spending T-giving and much of Christmas together, and looked forward to it as a time to get over things and reevaluate things -- so appealing, now. But now, her family has had to change Christmas tickets/plans and I certainly have little to no credibility with her family and least of all, her (since we've broken up and gotten back together before). Damn.

PPS: Interestingly enough, she had told me I could have sex with someone else, if it would ease my overthinking issues. I never wanted to because I wanted to be loyal to her and don't want to have to do that.

little_tippler

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I think in a sense though that this moment you are going through and this thread you have made have really made you see things in a clearer light.

Normally I'd say that this seems to me like one of those "right person, wrong time" cases. Like your GF said, 5 years down the line you could get together and there would be no problems. Maybe it is that.

But as time passes and I experience more in life, I have come to think that sometimes there isn't a right time, and you're not always ready and perfect and willing to go thorugh with something. If she's the right person and you really want her so much, you should try anway.

Who cares if plans have been ruined and horrible things said and done, it's still worth it if it's so important to you and also to her. There is always a way, if you are both willing and want it enough. I really believe that.

You have some issues - well I can relate. I have had more than one sexual partner, but only just. I used to wonder whether that was okay, whether I was suddenly in my 30's going to turn into a sex vixen and want to get around some, but I came to realise that if I'm happy with what I have then I can put those thoughts away in a small place that's so tiny and far that eventually it will disappear as my love and certainty keeps growing.

We're never happy with what we have, there's always something. But the truly happy people are those who not only are happy with what they have, every day they are still in wonder at how many great things are in their life and how grateful they are to have them.

I agree with abaya, it seems hard to me to have a best friend of the opposite sex if you're with someone who aside from being your lover, is also your best friend. I also think of my SO as my best friend. It's the best feeling in the world. That's also why I trust him implicitly. But some things are too much and obviously your girlfriend had a sixth sense about Sarah - which seems in some part confirmed by you, and also, seeing that your GF knows she is your first, the tension with regards Sarah, a close friend who seems sometimes a little more than that, is even greater.

I think you can work out your issues and stay with your GF, if she'll have you back. You may not win her back at once, but maybe she will take you back - don't give up on the first try. Just a tip - women love men who are in love with them and won't give up on the first try. Who make an effort to win them back. Expressing how you feel quite openly and without reserve, however painful for you, is sure to reach her heart, if she stil wants you. Your GF sounds like a really nice and understanding person. She even tried to make friends with Sarah - that's pretty generous when probably all she wants Sarah to do is go away.

The important thing is to always communicate with your GF, and if you do that and let her listen to your feelings and help when you need it, I'm sure that together you can work your problems out. I also think that if you have someone who loves you at your side, that will only help you grow stronger and erase those doubts away.

I hope things work out for the best.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

simivin

Well, as some of you in the Ladies Lounge observed, Cheerycheeks situation is remarkably similar to mine. We are, in fact, the BF/GF in question.

So here we are again -- my GF and I are back together after a 3 or 4 day split. Sarah's (alias under this forum, Beth under the LL forum) integrity is called into question, my integrity is called into question, my loyalty is called into question, and my priorities are called into question. Fair enough; pehaps I have not put in the requisite amount of work to allay any of those concerns.

So Sarah's integrity is called into question. Who is this girl Sarah? Why hasn't she written my girlfriend back? That certainly seems suspicious -- if she was really a great friend of mine, she would have written back by now and save my GF and I the headache we have been going through. You know, I can't say for sure what Sarah's thoughts, motivations, and intentions are -- I'm not in her head. Honestly, however, can you really speak about your husband/wife and know what he/she is thinking? No, you don't. You base so much of it on trust. That's how it is with Sarah and I. I don't know if she's been trying to subvert my relationship, or has ulterior motives -- sure, I guess those are possibilities -- but I feel I know her well enough to trust her not to do that. If she did, if she was lying to me, our friendship would be beyond repair -- at least for a very, very long time. I hate being lied to or manipulated, and it would apply to Sarah too.
Do I think Sarah should have written back already? Sure I do. But I also know that she is still dealing with a BF/ex BF and working through that whole situation. I also know that she is busy and unhappy with work. Or that she says that she hardly talks to any friends at all -- of which I am a rare exception. Ok, does that seem suspicious? Shouldn't she have some time to write back to my GF -- she does go out, and she does talk to me. Yes, she should, and maybe it is supsicious. But it goes back to trust -- I have no reason not to trust Sarah yet, and really, I understand her pespective of how it could be hard to sit down and write a full, well-thought response to a person you don't know and who is already animous towards you; it can be a somewhat daunting task.
Do I believe Sarah is a good person? Yes. Will I defend that, even to my GF? Yes. And I think I have a right to, because she is someone I trust. I've asked my GF to trust me about Sarah, too, but that has been difficult for her to do (which I can understand as well).

Now, my integrity is called into question as well because of this situation. I have felt under attack and under scrutiny because of my relationship with Sarah. Maybe it is deserved, but I don't think so. I am a trustworthy individual, and feel that I deserve such trust. Other than the fact that my GF knows about my past friendship/feelings for Sarah, other than the fact that yes, I do sometimes wonder, I do not think I've done anything to undermine my deserving such trust. So Sarah and I freak danced; so I tried to talk to my GF and emphasize that it wasn't such a big deal, subsequently making it look like I was trying to hide something, even though I just intended to ease her fears about it. So Sarah and I got comments from people. So Sarah and I have joked and talked about how fate has always led us apart. I don't really care; I haven't acted on anything. It shouldn't matter. Do I want trust? Yes. Do I deserve trust? Yes. Have I given any reason to not trust me? No. And no matter what "female instinct" might say, it can be wrong...and maybe that just gets ladies burned in the end, for which I am very sorry, but it would be nice to be innocent until proven guilty. And maybe I am guilty in some peoples' eyes already, but in my eyes, I am not.

As for loyalty, I am and have been loyal to my GF. You could start with the superficial reasons like the fact that I have driven roughly 100 hours to see her this semester, just about every other weekend. I have hardly done anything in town, here, because I've been gone most weekends. I haven't done that for anyone else, including Sarah (oh, and my parents live by Sarah too, so I haven't even seen them that much). Someone in the LL said that I probably made out with Sarah, at least in the days that my GF and I were broken up. Sarah and I have never made out, we didn't do anything over the days I was single, and we didn't even try to set something up. If I was really that interested in messing around with her, I should have waited until after the weekend to get back with my girlfriend. In reality, I wasn't even sure I wanted to date Sarah -- I was hurt, I wanted my GF, I didn't want to rebound and hurt Sarah knowing I still wanted to be with my GF, and didn't even want another serious relationship anyway. Would we date if we were both single? Sure, we probably would. But does that mean anything? Sure, she could be considered a back-up. But she's a friend first; in fact, I've tried to help things between her and her ex. There may be questions and "what ifs" for a long time; fine, but I maintain that that doesn't mean anything unless you act on them.

As for priorities, both Sarah and I have always accepted our role as friends, always accepted that there are or might be other people that are our first priority (and I had already told Sarah that my GF is my first priority). We respect that, and we trust each other to respect that. If Sarah would have tried anything when I saw her two weekends ago, it would have constituted a serious breach of character, trust, and respect, and I would have responded accordingly; likewise, if I had done anything, I would have been extraordinarily disappointed in myself. However, Sarah and our friendship is also a priority to me. It is something important to me -- we've been friends for a long time, through many ups and downs and still support one another. It is something that makes me happy -- now that I have left all my undergrad friends and am at a new college, I have maybe one person here who I would actually consider a friend. So I turn to Sarah in addition to my GF; is that so terrible? And that's why I tried to set my foot down -- why should my closeness matter to my GF? I'm still her BF, I'm with her for a reason, I keep trying things with her, and I have tried to talk to her and make her see/realize/understand this. Should I change my friendship? According to many people, especially the ladies, I should make compromises here. But should I really? Others, including Mal and Shani, accept that men and women can have close friends of the opposite sex. So I finally decided I shouldn't have to compromise. Maybe a wrong decision; maybe misplaced priorities; it all depends on your point of view.

So there is a response to some of the things. Maybe I am just a good boy hurting my GF -- and no matter how hard I try not to, that's still the case. Do I deseve her? Maybe I don't -- I don't appear to understand her perspective nor do I make this compromises in her favor. Maybe the ladies are right, who am I to say? But you know, maybe you are wrong too. I've obviously thought about this a lot, talked about this a lot with my GF (she had already read my posts on TFP, and we had talked about that basically anyway), and try to be open and honest. So take it as you will; there are some additional, if long-winded thoughts.

Sim

PS: Why didn't I tell Sarah to write to my GF? Because I wanted it to come from her. Maybe that was too passive, but I felt that if I had to stick my nose in their business, it might decrease the sincerity. Well, I finally directly asked Sarah to write whatever she wanted -- I guess we'll see where this goes. Ultimately, I just wanted everything -- Sarah, the emails, whatever -- to be a non-issue. Maybe when she does respond (and she will respond honestly), it will help things along.

little_tippler

I'm glad to hear you guys are back together and trying to make things work again. All I can say is that I hope things work out.

I have responded a second time in the LL to your girlfriend's post, and in a sense, to your last here. Thank you for being so open and honest with the TFP, even though at the moment you sound a little defensive about the situation, remember that you asked us for your opinion - and we gave it to you. No-one means to meddle, just to help.

I do find it intriguing how different the response in the LL was to the one here - and I think that has upset you. My response in the LL was the same one as it was here. That there has to be compromise in this kind of situation, that seems so invisible but is actually a fragile one. You say you don't think you should have to...but I think you know that if you really want your relationship to work out, then someone will have to compromise, somewhere, somehow.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

simivin

That Lil' tippler. And yes, I admit, I have been rather defensive -- because I don't think I've done anything wrong (to which someone could posit: then why would you need to feel defensive? But I digress) and also because of pressure outside of the TFP conversation(s). And yes, it was rather upsetting reading the LL posts because I feel I got ripped pretty well -- maybe I deserve it, however.

Your post a week ago helped me consider why I should even get back together. If I really cared, I would try. So maybe I was justified in breaking up with her, but I still didn't think it was fair to cut it off so soon, without giving (either of) us a chance to get on our feet again. So, I took the plunge, knowing full well that I have to face her, and her family, and increased doubts, etc. I thought it was worth it to try to make things better -- and I wished I could have gone back and changed things two Sundays ago.

And yes, there needs to be some compromise. I guess I stepped back too much hoping things would play out...but even if I hadn't yet prompted my friend to respond (at least until yesterday), I was contemplating ways for my GF and Sarah and I to hang out -- over T-giving, Christmas, whatever, where there would be an actual opportunity. So, I know, I haven't been compromising in talking to my friend or my stance on my friendship with her, but I have thought of ways to mesh things together and to include my GF, like she wanted. And maybe after your posts (and those of the other ladies), I will reevaluate how I feel about compromising my friendship itself.

I guess time will tell, as in all things. Hopefully T-giving and the next month or two will really help my GF and I out.

Sorry for getting a bit defensive. It is all rather stressful (in and esp out of TFP)...but that doesn't besmirch my appreciation for your comments (and yours Abaya, and everyone else), no matter how harsh, honest, and critical they are. Thank you.

Sim

lurkette

I'm gonna be blunt because I'm tired of people feeding the drama.

Be fucking responsible, both of you.

simivin, accept that whether your behavior with Beth/Sarah seems reasonable to you, it seems over the line to your girlfriend. If you're interested in a relationship with your girlfriend, do what it takes to make it work. Accept that some aspects of your relationship with Beth/Sarah threaten Cheerycheeks, and just deal. Don't defend yourself, don't justify it, just accept that that's the way it is. You do X, she feels Y. Quit expecting Cheery to change her feelings, and just stop doing X. (Where X is, say, freakdancing with a girl who has intimate conversations with you and may or may not want to sleep with you.)

Now, the paradox:

Cheerycheeks, be responsible for your own feelings. You're looking for the cheating and the lying and the breach of trust, and *surprise* you find it everywhere. Simivin says there's nothing to the relationship with Beth/Sarah, and you don't believe him. Sure you have evidence: YOU'RE LOOKING FOR IT! You're not interested in what's true, you're interested in how things might end up with you hurt. That's not the way to have a relationship that works. These things have a funny way of turning out to be self-fulfilling prophecies: you're (rationally or irrationally) jealous, he feels hurt and *surprise* turns to the understanding long-term friend, which provides you more evidence, which makes you more hurt and jealous, which pisses him off, which drives him further away, and VOILA! You break up and gosh, if you weren't right all along. Only you don't see your role in the causal chain. You only see him betraying your trust.

If you're both 100% responsible, this will work. If you can't do that, either accept that this relationship is going to look exactly the way it does, and see if you can live with that.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

simivin

Rock on, Lurkette. I agree 100%. That's what my GF and I talked about last week when we were getting back together -- we both need to grow up and be more mature. Now, whether we each can or not is yet to be seen.

Sim

PS: And I think your reconstruction of the scenario -- on both sides, including mine -- is true.