settie

Yes, like what most people have already said in this thread, body language is the determinate.
I detest men like that, those men that think they have the right to touch you. They need a good slap upside the head, and some classes on public appropriateness.
I'm like Grace, I give off a "stay the fuck away from me or you'll never reproduce" glare to those edgy people out in public. I don't give them any chances, and wouldn't trust them with anything. Then again, its a must-have if you have even been a high school student going to class downtown in my city. You need guts, and a person to come along with you.
/threadjack
I think you should ask Grace to teach you that look of hers, it might help prevent groping and the like in public places.

Gilda

This was a lot more than I was expecting. I was mostly just venting. I've read everything carefully, so if I don't respond directly to you, it isn't because I'm ignoring you.

I've always kinda considered comic shops and hobby stores my territory. Yes, I'm aware that I am usually the only woman in these places when I'm there. That's something a woman tends to notice rather quickly regardless of the situation. What I don't get is why the guys don't just talk to me. There's pretty much only one reason why I'd be in those places, and that's because I have the same interests that they do. I'm a nerd just like they are. I mean, damn, I've got a Shrinking Violet avatar and list my location as Imsk. I tend to set off geek radar from blocks away. So if they'd take a few seconds, they'd realize that I'm just like they are. I'm a socially awkward nerd, too.

Gail Simone calls this the "Women in Refrigerators" syndrome. Essentially, the idea is that women in comics tend to be used as plot devices to motivate the men. There are some really good writers out there who actively avoid this, Gail, Alan Moore, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, but it does still seem to be the trend. There are several good comics starring strong female characters, but even the best of them, Birds of Prey, only sells about 40k monthly, about 1/4 of the best selling monthly book (Superman/Batman). So I see what you're saying. But surely these guys had mothers and sisters and went to schools where there were girls?

Gilda

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Gilda

Heh. The subscription service I use operates out of North Carolina.

At my local comic shop, there's sometimes a couple of members of my comic club there, and they're a bit protective of me.

Probably. I unfortunately still don't have a good handle on how to handle my emotions in such a situation, and I don't want to overreact. I know that what you say wouldn't be an overreaction, but it's hard to know that in the moment.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Yeah, I get the sidle up nearby a lot, and not just in comic and hobby shops. I just don't understand why if they're interested they don't just talk to me. There's the obvious avenue of conversation, and I'm a nerd just like they are. I even have the black plastic rimmed nerd glasses.

Thank you.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Suave

I don't doubt that you consider it your territory too. I'm just saying that people tend to be more comfortable with pushing social boundaries in their own social areas.

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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

Gilda

Nah, if I could be intimidated into not going to a comic shop, it would have happened long ago. I'm used to the stares and the sidling. Fortunately, most of the time, one or two of the guys from my comic club are there, and they're kinda protective. I think I may be the closest thing to a girlfriend any of them have. The owner of the comic store also keeps an eye out when he's up front, but most of the time he tends to hang out in back playing card games until someone has something to buy.

I won't, however be going into that particular hobby shop again. If that's the kind of person who hangs out there it isn't the kind of place I want to give my business to.

I was half joking about scaring them off by saying hello. I do that just to be friendly and start a conversation, and don't really understand why, a little over half the time anyway, they tend to take off. I can't really see how I could intimidate anyone who's twice my size.

He seemed to be in his late teens or early 20's. I didn't stay long enough to get a good look.

I'm tired, and it's time for me to go to bed, so I'll be back tomorrow to catch up.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

FngKestrel

It triggers a flight or fight response in guys when an attractive woman in a comic book store says hi. Incoherent babbling and running away soon follow. If they stick around, it's a lot of mumbling and stammering. Seen it a bunch of times.

guthmund

First of all, good for you. I know some that would use such an unfortunate situation as an excuse to withdraw further into themselves.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that 'intimidation' is all about size.

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Rinndalir

Most geek guys are intimidated by women. Doubly so by geek girls. Your average geek guys are socially inept anyway and don't know how to talk to a girl, they probably want a girlfriend but don't know how to approach a woman. And if a girl is friends with a geek guy chances are he likes her but doesn't know how to tell her and doesn't have the confidence to. A geeky girl is the ultimate dream, she can be your gf AND play D&D with you.

I know because I used to be like that, grew out of it but many guys don't. I could name several that I sometimes hang out with.

As for one of those guys being a sex predator, it's probably unusual but I can see how it would happen. They're afraid to talk to girls because they lack the confidence to, its frustrating so they start wanting that power trip that sex predators get off on. Could be mentally disturbed as well. Hopefully this guy is not a rapist in training.

Funny thing is, if you had said something I'm sure at least 5 guys would have stepped up to protect you. Geek guys may be shy but also tend to have this secret protector/hero complex when it comes to women.

Ananas

Girl, you need to learn how to get loud when someone assaults you in public. Sometimes all it takes is a loud "What the hell do you think you''re doing?" or a "Get your hand off me!" to put the invader in his place. The business owner should be made aware of this, too.

Don't let someone decide it's OK to ruin your enjoyment.

__________________
it's gritty

shesus

This has happened to me and until I realized what I was doing, I was constantly assaulted by guys. It hasn't happened much since I have been working on self-confidence.

However, I have a similar situation at my job. There is a woman who would 'accidently' grab my breast. At first, I thought that maybe it truly was an accident. She would trip and try to catch herself, but miss my arm. But, then she would get to where she would point to something on my computer screen and brush/linger past my breast. The last time she did it she was admiring my necklace, of course I think it was more my breasts. I started to avoid her. It was a very uncomfortable situation because it didn't seem like enough to complain about, but is was noticeable. One day I was talking to another colleague and this woman had been doing the same thing to her.

I am not overly sensitive of being touched. I am good at being the victim and also thinking that maybe I did do something to provoke it. I can be quite friendly (which to most equals flirty) and maybe I do ask for it. However, part of me says that it doesn't matter, I was violated and that is wrong.

As for why you, Gilda, and not Gracie or Sissy, I am not sure if there is a simple answer to that. You said that you were alone and Sissy went off with a group. I think that alone women get triggered more than women in a group. I was assaulted in a library because I was alone. I think that any girl that would have been down there alone would have met the same fate that I did. Circumstances, self-esteem, body language, and other factors can be taken into account. But sometimes, men are just jerks and can't control themselves. You unfortunately have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time imo.

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Supple Cow

I second that. If anything, you may just tend to be alone when you're in public places more often than Grace and Sissy are. I've been groped by strangers more times than I would like to count, but I can hardly remember a time when it happened to me while I was in a group of people. That said, it doesn't make it any better to have a rational explanation for why some fuckwad stranger would grope you, and you shouldn't have to worry about using the buddy system everywhere you go. Some scum just like to work in dark alleys and others like to work in well-lit shops at the mall. Scum is scum. I'm sorry the cretin shook you up so much.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Gilda

I'm assuming you're referring to when dealing with other adults in an informal situation, and when I'm by myself here. It's a lot different if it's a formal situation such as in class or talking to a parent, and it's quite a bit different when I'm with Grace or Sissy.

In whatever way is most comfortable in the given situation. It isn't something that I've analyzed.
Couldn't tell you. It isn't something that I think about.

I tend to take short steps. I wear heels most days and that's "trained" my walk to accommodate.

It depends. If it's a guy, and it's a social situation, I tend to look away pretty quickly. I don't want to give them the impression that I'm interested and want to flirt.

I don't know. I'll look wherever I was looking before hand. Probably down. It isn't something that I think about.

When I'm by myself, I never want to flirt. Sometimes when I'm with Grace, because then I know it's safe, and she always makes it clear to the guy or guys that they have no chance whatsoever with either of us, but that doesn't always keep them from wanting to flirt. In those situations, though, I tend to just follow her lead.

I know I'm not sending any signals that say I'm interested. Some guys obviously misread them, as I do get hit on sometimes, but I really don't mind the casual "are you interested" type of inquiry. That's kind of flattering.

I understood what he meant and wasn't offended.

Probably. There's not really any way for me to watch myself the way I do her, though. I assume what differences there are are due to her being an athlete and highly skilled martial artist.

More to come.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Sweetpea

Gilda, it's not YOUR fault...

I highly doubt you're sending off 'vibes', i don't think it's anything you're doing, besides the fact that you were born an unusually attractive and lovely person... i think it's merely that you are a very gorgeous and petite woman, Men who grope often target very petite and attractive women, simple as that.

That guy was COMPLETELY in the wrong and you could have filed assault charges against him if you so choose. It's Never okay to touch, ever. And i'm so sorry that he did that to you

Sweetpea

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Gilda

I was upset and wanted to get out of there because it felt unsafe. The guy was twice my size and I was no physical threat to him whatsoever. You're right abouit my lacking self-esteem in such a situation.

I did react. I left, getting myself out of what seemed at the time to be a potentially dangerous situation.

Yes. I was regularly beaten by two of my boyfriends.

It's been a topic in the past and will be in the future.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

amonkie

I have been poked in my breasts in crowded buses/trains (elbows tend to get in the way) but I have NEVER been groped without my explicit permission. I am a very assertive person when I am alone - I travel quite a bit, and walk just about all the time like I know EXACTLY where I'm going. As for the beauty thing, I know I'm not drop dead gorgeous, and it is extremely rare for me to be hit on or approached by guys I do not know. I don't know how much of that is based on my demeanor or just their lack of interest to begin with, but I'm really frustrated with the fact that some people can not remember simple decent social manners.

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Astrocloud

I'm not sure why this is in tilted sexuality. This is more of a tilted living thing. Reading the title I thought that it was some sort of fetish...

But anyways -this happened to me: 6'4" 240ish lbs. The place was a bar that I go to sometimes. The culprit was a woman I will refer to as "old beer-gut woman". Being the nice guy that I am -I rejected her advances -I asked her not to touch me. She responded by suggesting that I was gay.

My answer is simply: Just because I'm not into you does not make me gay. She told me that she was insulted. I said that she shouldn't be insulted -that I was flattered by her attention but that there is no nice way to put it: that I was not attracted to her.

To this day old beer-gut woman remains one person that I avoid.

SirLance

I've seen your pictures in tilted portraits and I think you're a pretty girl. That said, I don't think it was so much that as this asshole had somehow assesed you as a viable target for his disgusting behavior.

Yes, you can do things to not be assesed that way, like look approaching men in the eye and hold the gaze for a few seconds, but don't take that to mean that you have any sort of culpability here. This asshole victimized you, and there are no two ways about it.

I don't think I've ever been in a comic store, but location doesn't matter, this behavior is simply not acceptable.

A suggestion: if you are groped again in a store, say as loudly as you can without screaming "Get your hands off my " insert name of body part here ", asshole!" and move away. This should draw help from the clerical staff. You should also call police from the scene and file a report. This type of guy is a sexual predator and if you stop him you may be stopping him from going on to bigger things... like forcible rape, for example.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

Gilda

Many people have been suggesting taking martial arts classes.

That is something that I've tried and it was a complete bust. Grace, as I said, is a highly skilled martial artist, and tried to teach me some things, but her teaching me isn't something that tends to work well, whether it's parallel parking or martial arts or any of the other dozen things she does better than I do.

I tried a class with her sensei, but that didn't work either. In theory it helps to build self-confidence and self-esteem, but in practice it involves hitting and eventually being hit, throwing others to the ground and being thrown, and I do not want to be involved in that on either side of the equation.

As to why I don't just look the guys in the eye and say "Hi" more often, it's complicated, and I'm not sure why I do it sometimes and not others. It depends upon how threatening the guy seems; the more threatening, the longer I wait, the less likely I am to do it.

I think mostly, as a defense mechanism, walking away is much easier, as it doesn't involve challenging someone who is almost always bigger and stronger than I am, to whom I post no physical threat. It depends on where I am that day and that particular time, and whether I'm with someone or there's someone I know nearby. And there is no way I'm going to hit someone that much bigger and stronger than I am. I know from experience that challenging someone physically when you cannot back that up is just asking to get hurt, and I'd much rather deal with having been a little intimidated than with having been a little intimidated and having gotten hurt physically. Better safe with a little regret than hurt with a lot of regret. Getting the guy in trouble isn't worth getting hurt. It isn't always the same guy, so challenging guy A isn't going to prevent the next guy from grabbing my ass.

I know that this probably doesn't make sense logically, but that's how it feells. I generally avoid confrontation and conflict whenever possible, avoid risk. I stay in my comfort zone. I know that's not how many people would like to live their lives, but it works for me. I spend much of my teens and early 20's taking chances and believe me, playing it safe is much better, at least for me.

I'll have to actively ready my "Hello" defense when I'm out on my own. Having to think defensively, though, takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the situation. You get the anxiety of the potential encounter, even if one doesn't occur.

I think this is why I tend to stay at home when Grace can't come with me. When she's with me, I don't have to concern myself with safety, as I know she'll take care of that. Sissy thinks I rely on Grace too much, but she understimates her. Grace really doesn't mind being there for me in that way, or if she does, she's never shown it.

One of the stupid aspects of this is that Sissy feels guilty for having deserted me that day, which is ridiculous. It isn't like she'd have gone into the hobby shop with me anyway. That place creeps her out.

Anyway, thank you all for the feedback.

I know I need to be more assertive. I remember watching a tv show with my dad about 10 or 15 years ago with a couple of big boxers. Sugar Ray Robinson was fighting some really intimidating guy named Marvin something. The sportscaster, a guy named Larry Merchant (his name I can remember, but the other boxer, no; weird how memory works isn't it) interviewed Sugar Ray, who was a big underdog, and who said he knew exactly how to beat Marvin. After the interview, Merchant was talking to another guy and the other guy said (paraphrased, "Sure, he knows how to beat Marvin. I know how to beat him, too. Everyone knows how to do it, but knowing and doing are two very different things."*

I know that being more assertive would help me in that particular situation, but knowing this doesn't always help me do it. Sometimes, but not always. Thank you for your feedback. Sometimes it just helps to vent.

Gilda

*We watched the fight and the Sugar Ray guy showboated and danced around while Marvin beat him to a pulp, and Sugar Ray won the fight. I really don't understand boxing.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

FngKestrel

A few people have said a martial arts class, but I think a dedicated women's self-defense class is more useful. Martial arts takes a degree of ability before it's effective, but a dedicated self-defense course will give you some techniques to specifically fight off attackers. Granted, you don't want to be in that situation, but having the knowledge is empowering in its own right.

Anxst

I would have to agree with FngKestrel. If you've tried martial arts, and they simply aren't for you, you may want to look into basic self defense classes. If that still isn't something you want to pursue, then just work on a pose.

Come up with an aggressive, no nonsense way to stand and look at someone that lets them know you're not to be fucked with.

Besides, doing that kind of thing in front of a mirror can be fun.

And Gilda, I have to go along with what many have said here, and I should have said earlier. I sincerely hope nothing like this happens to you ever again.

Comic book stores need girls hanging around in them for two very important reasons:

1. Women tend to enjoy better written comic books in general. Their purchases help influence the writers to write better books.
2. Cute girls hanging around tend to remind the boys to bathe more often.

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Gilda

Not all about size. Jet Li is about my size, 5' 6" 130 lbs., and I doubt many people of any size intimidate him. Bruce Lee was about my size.

So I realize that it isn't all about size.

But the vast majority of the time, yeah, size and ability to inflict harm are what lead to "intimidation." There's reason most of the bullies are bigger kids and bouncers are big guys. There's a reason why women don't fight men in the ring, and why there are weight classes in boxing and wrestling. Size and strength make a big difference.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Elphaba

The difference in size makes a huge difference in your sense of vulnerability. I am 5'1" and about 110 lbs. Walking away would have been my choice as well, when faced with an ogre of that size. If I knew the proprietor, I would have walked up to her/him for protection, but that wasn't the case in Gilda's situation.

MSD

The so-called "victim vibe" is a lack of the "don't fuck with me" vibe. I was always picked on in school by litle shits who were a lto smaller than me because they knew I wouldn't defend myself. I would always walk with my head down, slouched over, and arms crossed. I finally figured out that standing up, holding my arms and shoulders back a bit, and lifitng my chin up gave off an air of confidence that stopped would-be bullies.

Next time some creep does something like that, all you have to do is throw your elbow into his throat with all your weight behind it. Fighting back after running for a long time is one of the most gratifying things you can do.

Astrocloud

As far as defending yourself in a public place -I'd leave that to the police. Get a cell phone and learn '911'. If the guy is truly inappropriate -he'd be inappropriate to the police or at least you'd put him on their radar.

raeanna74

Of all the suggestions here and those that I've made, it does not matter what you do when you are minding your own business, it is not right that these men approach you in such a way. Nothing a woman does should invite that kind of touch unless she outright flashes a guy or something. When you are minding your own business and they do something like this THEY are pathetic, desperate creatures who couldn't get a girlfriend if they tried.

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kangaeru

I second what MrSelfDetruct said. You cannot look at a situation and leave whether or not you're victimized up to the person who may or may not decide to victimize you. People are not nice--why leave that decision in their hands? If you know going into any situation that no one is going to fuck with you beyond a certain point or it's on, then people won't push that line. If you have no line, they will see that and take as much as you will give them.

It may not be in your personality to be aggressive, but don't you feel indignant when someone tries to compromise your personal space like that? Fuck the consequences--you need to protect your integrity and peace of mind and if someone is seriously jeopardizing that...they had it coming.

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guthmund

Only if it gets physical. It's the build up, it's the first few moments before the attacker settles on his course of action that are the most important. Just take a look at animals in the wild. The hair on a dog's back will rise, cats lay back their ears, bears will stand up on their hind legs and rattlesnakes...well, rattle, all in an attempt to get someone/something to leave them alone.

The point I'm trying to make is that you don't actually have to be physically intimidating to be intimidating. It's body position, stance, mannerisms. The guy who groped you had no idea if you could actually kick the dog snot out of him or not. Your mannerisms told him it wasn't likely and he played the odds. You don't have to be this great, big, daring do-er, braving the rapids and forging boldly ahead, but you should be able to, at the very least, tread a little water once in a while.

I hate to keep harping on this, but it's very important. I used to be a jack-of-all-trades (painting, fixing things, lawnwork, etc...) at a woman's shelter. Sometimes I think I've heard all the horrible stories a person can stand to hear in one lifetime. I'd hate to hear another one.

By the way, the biggest bully in my high school was a guy named 'Brad.' 'Brad' stood all of 5'2" with his leather 'biker' boots on. Even I, at a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier, watched where I stepped when he was around.

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Gilda

MrSelfDestruct' s quote was simply the closest of several suggesting that my getting violent in that situation would have been an appropriate response; I'm not trying to pick on him, just using it as a representative example.

I'm not going to hit somebody solely because he touched me inappropriately. It might make him back off, or he might have hit me back. If he hit me back, I'd be in a hell of a lot worse situation than I started in. By walking away, I accomplished the same goal as getting him to back off. I put distance between us. I see no possible positive outcome for me that would come from hitting him.

All of that is after the fact analysis, though. In the moment, all I know is that I don't want to be near this guy, he's a lot bigger than I am, and he's already shown that he's aggressive. All that tells me the best thing to do is get the hell away from him, and in this case, it was a very effective strategy.

Nothing I did at that point would have made that feeling of having been violated go away. I needed Grace for that. All that escalating the situation would have done was draw the attention of everyone around us. As it is, he knows he got away with something, but that's it. Unless it's a story he'd want to share with the other guys hanging out there, in which case my hitting him would only have sped the discovery, or I suppose have made it a better story. I don't know how these guys think. Maybe this is the kind of thing that they like to share when they're talking about girls.

I'm rambling again. In essense, given fight or flight and an opponent capable of putting me in a world of hurt, I'll choose flight every time.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

I agree. Getting violent then would have served no purpose, as I've said above. I don't think calling the police would have helped things any, except to add to my feelings of helplessness and embarassment. Calling 911 at that point would, I think, have been an abuse of the system. There was no emergency that required police intervention. It was over already. I'd already fixed the immediately problem by leaving, and at that point it was just a matter of dealing with my feelings, and there's nothing the police could have done to help me there.. I needed Grace for that.

Gilda

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Martian

Okay, so here's my extremely fucked up bad mood assessment of the situation.

First off, let me flatter you and/or myself briefly by telling you that there is no excuse for that sort of behaviour and had I been present at said event this fellow would have been made well aware of it. Is it right? No, not in the slightest, but I have a temper and will not put up with that sort of disrespectful behaviour from anyone towards anyone, especially those who seem less capable of defending themselves. And before anyone says anything about it, it's not gender specific because personal respect isn't a gender specific issue. But yeah. I was cracking my knuckles just reading your post. Not tolerable in my books at all.

And having said that, might I suggest you look into self defence classes, not with an eye towards using them but more for the knowledge that you can if you have to? Grace likely does very much have a 'don't fuck with me mojo'. I'm 5'11" and 160 lbs and I have previously stared down a guy nearly twice my size based on the same thing. Confidence shows through and if you're confident in your abilities to defend yourself, people are going to assume you can defend yourself. The catch is that you really have to believe it, which means you actually have to be able to follow through if it becomes necessary. Odds on are that you'd never use the techniques they show you, but knowing how to is all it takes.

Failing that, try to have an escort where possible. It's terrible that you'd need such a deterrent and I hate what it says about my fellow men, but if that's what it takes, so be it. Your personal safety is paramount and this sort of assault is a breach of that.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Gilda

I do my best not to. I avoid dangerous situations. I just went out to get myself a Mr. Pibb. There's a 7-11 about a block away, half that if I walk through the alley behind my home. Did I walk there? Hell no. I got in my car and drove to MacDonalds and went through the drive through.

When I go grocery shopping late at night, or in the very early morning (the best time by far) I park in a well lit area, and always have someone help me out with my groceries and load them in my car.

I minimize the threat when I can. I don't put myself in high risk situations.

Looking at a display case in a crowded mall isn't a high risk situation. That guy wasn't going to get violent with me unless I escalated it by getting violent with him first, and who knows what would have happened then?

Nonsense. Did you know that most police officers who are killed in the line of duty are killed with their own gun? Most victims of rape fight back, hard. Once someone has chosen to disregard the basic rules of society, it's easy to cross the line, even to the point of disregarding their own safety.

Now this is hardly attempted murder or rape, but by touching me inappropriately, he'd already crossed the line. If I'd escalated the incident to violence, I'd just have been inviting him to up the ante to hitting me, and getting hit is very, very high on my list of things to avoid.

Of course. I'd think that this thread would be ample evidence of that.

I never say F--- the consequences, especially when it compes to getting hurt. The potential price is much too high. Getting hurt further by getting violent and thus provoking him to do the same would not have made things better for me.

I can see no positive outcome from having gotten violent with this guy. Logically, the best possible result would have been that he'd have backed off and I'd have drawn attention to us. Walking away accomplished the same thing without the risk of physical harm to myself, and without the attendant embarassment.

And I can prevent this from happening again by simply not going back there. I don't see any way in which violence would have improved things.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

My mannerisms merely reflect the truth. I'm no threat to a guy that size. If knowing that is reflected in my mannerisms, then there's not a whole lot I can do about that, as I can't just decide to disregard those facts. Regardless of how I behaved, one look at me would have told him I'm substantially smaller and weaker than he is. I was wearing a sleeveless top.

Well, that's really apples and oranges, but I get your point, and I agree.

Rather than learn to project an artificial attitude, I just don't put myself in risky situations. Being able to project that attitude my reduce the chance of becoming a victim, but not being in the situation in the first place eliminates it entirely.

I don't go to late movies alone. I've missed midnight premieres when Grace wasn't available to go with me. When I grocery shop late at night I have someone carry and load my groceries for me. If it's dark when I'm done at the gym, I request an escort to my car. I don't go to convenience stores at night. I pair up with Grace or Sissy whenever I can. I actively avoid any situation that looks or feels dangerous, and take my protection (Grace) with me whenever possible.

My mistake here was that I considered this a safe place because it was a well lit storefront in the mall and it was daylight hours. I now know better and will avoid it. Problem solved.

If the only solutions is to prepare myself for a violent confrontation every time I'm out in public, then I'd much rather not. The whole purpose of going to the hobby store was to have fun. Going in there prepared for a violent confrontation might have scared the guy off, or might not have, but it certainly would have sucked all of the fun out of the situation, which would have defeated the purpose of going there in the first place. I'd rather just enjoy myself.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

The bolded part here seems to be the key.

There's an ancient myth that seems relevant. A great treasure was located at the end of a very long canyon. The entrance to the canyon was guarded by two large stone statues. These statues were magical, and would crush anyone attempting to go between them who feared them, who believed in their magic. If a man could pass between them without fearing they would crush him, they would remain still. One of the bad guys tries to pass between them, has a moment of doubt, and is crushed. The hero manages to pass them without incident.

This has never made sense to me. You cannot simply unknow something. Once you know the magic statues are going to crush you, you have given up any possibility of passing them unharmed.

I happen to know for a fact that most men would find me easy prey, that the average man with no training is physically capable of causing me great physical harm with very little risk of serious harm to himself, and there's simply no way for me to unknow that, because it's an empirical fact. I can't project an aura of confidence because I'm not confident in such a situation, and I'm not confident in such a situation because I know that I'm easy prey. And that lack of confidence is part of what makes me easy prey. I get that, I understand how it works.

But until you can change the fact that I'm easy prey for a predator, the rest of that logic stays in place. The only way to really fix the situation is not to be in it in the first place, and as I've said, I don't put myself in those situations anymore.

The incident at the mall was completely different. There was no danger of my being attacked or raped, and I had no reason to suspect that anyone in that store would try to fondle me. Now that I know better, I'll simply not go in there any more. Sure, I'm missing out on something that I enjoy, but if I had to go in there tying to monitor the movements of the other customers and being prepared to defend myself, I wouldn't be enjoying myself anyway. In either case, that place is ruined for me, so I might as well just avoid the bad feelings in the first place and not go there.

Think of the Battle of Long Island. Yes, the Patriots defended themselves against an overwhelming force of British soldiers for a while, but when it became apparent that there was no chance to win, they retreated under the cover of fog. By retreating from a superior foe, they lived to fight again.

When faced with a superior foe whom you know will win, retreat is by far the better option, the one I'm best suited for, and the one I chose here.

I do.

Well, I was upset and had my feeling hurt, but safety was never really an issue. It would have been if I'd hit him and he hadn't backed off but instead retaliated. By handling things the way I did, I protected myself as best I could. Given my physical prowess, running away is by far the best option in a potential physical confrontation.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Martian

Gilda - that you weren't physically harmed doesn't nullify this as an assault. Emotional and mental harm are as bad if not often worse than physical damage. Cuts heal, bones set, mental scars last much, much longer.

I'm glad you do what you can to protect yourself, but the whole idea of an aura of confidence isn't something that you can switch on and off. It is actually possible to train yourself to perceive something to be true while knowing that it isn't (this is how people are able to manipulate lie detectors to their advantage) but it takes a lot of training and practice. The more practical course is to make it true, if it's feasible.

Risk assessment is part of self defence and it isn't an active process. Or rather, it is at first but with practice becomes second nature, so that you're able to keep track of the people around you and identify potential threats without even thinking about it. Were someone to approach my girlfriend in the manner that slob did to you all of the alarm bells would've gone off and I would have interceded immediately to prevent any potential problems (have in the past, as far as that goes). But this is digression and doesn't help you.

I'm sorry that this creep ruined that place for you. I can't stand cretins like him. Here's hoping you feel better at least. Should you ever find yourself in the Toronto region, drinks are on me.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Gilda

One last note.

I talked with Grace and Sissy about this.

Grace is with those who think I should have clocked the guy. It's an old argument with us.

Sissy, who of late has been attending Al-Anon (a support group for adult children of alcoholics) thinks I'm "co-dependant" and Grace is my "enabler". I fail to see how depending upon others for support when they are willing to offer that support is a bad thing, and Grace offering me physical protection is hardly comperable to alcoholism.

They both think it's strange that I have little trouble controlling 25 middle-schoolers or running a college classroom, but no self-confidence in public places with strangers. The difference seems pretty obvious to me.

As a teacher, I'm granted an automatic measure of authority that isn't present when I'm say, at the mall. I have the power to potentially ruin or make a student's day, a power I don't have in other situations. I have borrowed authority in the form of the principal/department head. That's also not present in everyday situations. There's no way to translate the self-confidence I have in the classroom in either place into other situations.

I have a lot to talk to my therapist about tomorrow.

Thank you everyone for the feedback. It is very much appreciated, and it makes me feel better just being able to explore my thoughts and feelings here. Even if it doesn't actually make the situation any better, it has helped me to feel better, and to understand, at least a little bit, how the guy knew to target me.

However I still think that for me, the better solution is simply to stay off thier radar than to try to put up a facade of confidence I don't actually feel. You can't hit a target that stays out of range.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

MSD

The bad thing isn't that you depend on a willing source of support, the problem is that you are either unwilling, or emotionally and mentally incapable of acting without that support. If Grace were abducted by aliens tonight and not returned for a month, do you feel that you would be capable of living your life in the same way without her presence, or would you have to make significant changes? There's a difference between accepting support and relying on it.
The only authority you have is the power and control that they yield to you. if your middle school class were to turn against you, you would be more utterly powerless to stop them on your own than you would be to stop a lone attacker. The fact that they have been conditioned by society to respect your authority is the only thing keeping you from being harmed by a mob that would rather be doing just about anyhting but sitting through another day of classes. An attacker (and that's what this guy was) does not yield any amount of power or respect to you, and therefore is able to comfortably violate your presonal space and assault you.
Considering the fact that you are a petite woman, many attackers would be able to close in on you fairly easily. What you need to do at the very least is not to fight when you can escape the situation, but perpare yourself for a situation in which fighitng may be your only choice. You say that most police officers are killed with their own guns , but civilians who fight back with guns are more than ten times less likely to be harmed than someone who offers no resistance. I don't know where your statistic that most rape victims fight back comes from, but wihtout fighting back you have no chance at all.

I am writing this from the point of view of someone who was picked on and beaten up repeatedly throughout middle school. After the worst incident, more of my left side was bruised from being kicked than was left unharmed. During high school, I earne dthe nickname "the punching bag" because I never fought back. One day, someone jumped on my back, and deciding that I had takne enough abuse, I flipped him over onto his back, knocking the wind out of him. To this day, the confidence I gained by knowing that I am capable of fighting back has helped me to keep my head high, and not once (excluding violent mosh pits) have I been the target of an assault of any kind. Only a few dozen people saw me fight back, yet nobody has touched me since. By developing this confidence, even if you simply take someo'ne hand off of your body and firmly tell them to stop, you can feel that confidence that you do not yet possess. The more often a petite, timid woman fights back in public, the clearer the message will be to predators that their actions will not be tolerated.

I don't want you to be a victim ever again. If we ever meet, I want to see you standing tall and proud, knowing that you do not need help from anyone to live your life without any fear of being a victim. If you can say to someone who tires to grope you, "Don't ever do that again," and take his wrist and move his hand away from you, you will feel the confidence you need, and you'll feel a sense of elation knowing that you can fend for yourself.

777

Well, let's cover what your doing right:

Great. Let's run with this. Try chatting with a few people in the store before you go browsing. Especially the clerk, owner, manager, etc. Ever hear that you should be good friends with your neighbors so that they'll be more likely to call for help if something's a miss. Same principal. Once you've gained rapport with the staff and regulars, they'll keep an eye on you. And if the sidlers notice that your being looked after, they'll walk off. ^_^

Awesome. I know this technique too. In fact, I taught it to my speach class. I still have it typed up in Word. Learn it. Like you said, it doesn't take much effort. And besides, no matter how big they are, the body has a lot of soft spots. Like the eyes. *_^

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

tooth

You should have punched him when you had the chance. You'd feel a lot better about things, I'm sure.

denim

I've seen this before too. I may have already told about this incident, but it won't hurt to mention it again.

I was in a subway station in Boston. Bunch of people were scattered about waiting for the train, nothing unusual.

This group of kids (Roxbury isn't far away) comes down the stairs and starts eyeing people. I give them this shit-eating grin (try it, please!); they move on.

Until they get to the bench. There are three people on the bench. They grab the purse from the middle one, a woman, and do the tug-of-war thing with it, get it, and run. The people on either side of her didn't do anything. Maybe they were just slow on the uptake, I can't say.

When I got back from chasing these assholes, I heard her (victim) say that she'd just finished replacing the stuff from the last time this happened! (sigh)