biznatch

I'm sorry, I used to go fairly often to the comic book store. I consider myself an OK person (my POV is also subjective, but w/e) and the owner was a cool friendly guy. So I don't think its necessary to slip into generalities about people who read comic books. just sayin.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

Nimetic

Don't get me wrong here. I agree that this was wrong. In a public place - you should definely challenge them on it. Ask them what they think they are doing. Easy for me to say I suppose. You don't necessarily have to yell and attract attention. Just let them know that you are a person and you are not happy.

But....

For those who pass judgement, rate this as assault or suggest an immediate physical counter-attack - please consider two things.

First up, no physical damage has been done.

Secondly - that it occasionally happens that a guy's hand lands on a breast accidentally. If you are reading or looking the other way in a store... reach out for a book, trolley or wall.

You'll probably all disagree on that last one. Seriously. It happens (rare). I can't remember details of the last time. It was a quite a while back. Surprised me as much as the woman. No harm done. I think she accepted that I wasn't meaning to touch her ('cos I apologized immediately) but who knows.

denim

Damage doesn't have to be physical to exist.

If you were that close to a woman that you had to reach across her to get something, you were at fault for not taking precautions, such as saying "excuse me, can I get in here please?" or waiting.

Yes, even so, you apollogized immediately. The asshole who offended Gilda didn't, and apparently it wasn't some kind of fleeting "whoops" kind of thing.

Poppinjay

I also visit these stores, and hobby shops. I don't grope, at least not intentionally, except my SO.

The owner of this one is an asshat, and sounds much like the socially inept kid who groped Gilda. It reminds me of all those "proprietors" who constantly scream at their potential customers to stop touching the merchandise so they can sell it "right".

It was a dumb reponse, it fits a stereotype, and as you posted, there are exceptions that prove the rule.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Cimarron29414

As the proud and protective owner of a fine set of testicles, I Cimarron29414, do hereby authorize you, Gilda, to kick anyone who does this SQUARELY and FORCEFULLY in the nuts. No, I am not kidding. Turn to face him, smile to disarm him, and then knee him in the marble bag as hard as you can! Be sure to stay around and DARE him to touch you again or call the cops!

It didn't happen for any other reason than you were there, and he thought he could get away with it. Don't enslave yourself to a victim's mentality - chalk it up as an "opportunity to perform castration" lost, and don't miss the next opportunity!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

air45

just so you know, i am a reader of comic book as well and i do not grope until i ask permission. do not think a comic book reading man is a bad guy -- he is a good man who enjoy adventure and good drawing.

abaya

Gilda:

It's amazing that this thread is still going... I hope it shows that we all really care about you, and hope that the advice/tools we are giving will come in handy if you are ever in a similar situation.

That said, I want to ask one thing:

When you are not in a comfort zone (classroom, home, or out with Grace), do you live in fear?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

SERPENT7

Gilda,
Speaking from the perspective of about 12+ years of reading on the topic of anti-social behavior, running the spectrum from swearing to serial rape/homicide, i can tell you that you are not imagining it, and "the guys who do this sort of thing have some sort of magical radar that tells them which girls are going to react which way."
Guys who make a habit out this sort of thing know how to read a girl. Much the same way a salesman can tell if you are buying, or browsing. He knew you would flee, rather than confront. Its not your fault, he just pegged you as a rabbit.
Now, I'm sorry to say all this, I realize its not going to make you feel any better, but it is what it is.
Fropm having read victim debriefs, and several profiles of serial rapists, the only way to avoid being targeted is to change the signals you send. Take a self-defense class, (and practice the things they teach you! Or else you will forget it all.) take a public speaking course, (To help you to feel comfortable with confronting the ass-clown next time.) and also, don't forget that when you are in a public space you have just as much of a right to be there as him.
Public spaces are also the most secure places. (Don't forget MOST guys LOVE coming to the aid of a girl in distress!! It is the most common sex fantasy, after all!) Confronting him means he has no ability to retaliate, thus you steal from him the threat behind physical size. Making a scene, also draws attention to him, and if he is inclined to follow you and cause trouble, being remembered is the LAST thing he wants!!!!

Nimetic

EDIT: Sorry this doesn't seem to have appeared in threaded mode. I'm heading to the test/newbies area now to figure out why...

True. Look I don't wish to play down the experience in any way. It's just that how we experience things is very subjective. For that reason and a number of others (provability in court for example)... I really cannot support physically attacking somebody based on mental pain/damage/insult.

Having said that... I'd probably break my own guidelines if pushed to hard. But I'd not definitely not see that as being justifiable in any rational sense.

In the case I am thinking of... I was not aware that the woman was there. I was reading or looking the other way. I think it was a case of her arriving and me not being aware of her presence. Seriously, this can happen. The reverse has occurred also. I've been touched/bumped in the crotch by a woman in cases that seemed entirely accidental.

Look I have caring days and uncaring days... but I'd not touch a strangers breasts without invitation. In fact, given an option and as a general rule, I don't touch any part of strangers without permission.

Dragonknight

YES!! I agree whole heartedly with him on this Gilda, and second the notion. As an added tip, if you don't prefer the knee to the groin, may I suggest the grab, twist, pull method. NO one should be subjected to this type of crap and that's all there is to it. Unfortunately if these loosers aren't stopped then they will continue to try this crap. If I would have seen this I would have hit him for you, and I'm sorry it happened.

hrandani

Now that I've read the whole thread I think there's still a few things for me to say.

It doesn't seem like any of this makes you angry, or indignant, Gilda. Why is that, exactly?
I wonder why you are so depressed in this manner, because most people would have had an immediate reaction, not a lingering dread of 'how far is he going to take it' and waiting to see. It's one thing to be wary of being excessively pre-emptive and smacking every guy who comes anywhere near you, but this sort of situation I find it impossible to believe you didn't feel the need to do anything, including moving out of that aisle and coming back when he left.

That said, I have to acknowledge that I am a creepy sort of person, but I try to minimize it. I'm a college student who typically isn't the best in hygiene, but I sometimes can't help glancing at girls repeatedly because they are so cute, especially in situations like riding the bus or walking around campus. I feel bad because I know it's creepy, but it's almost subconscious. I try to break this habit by bringing books or staring at the floor, but it's like a burning eye into my vision and they are by far the most interesting thing around. However, I would never even think about touching anyone in the manner you have described, even by accident; or even if I knew them.

What that person did was horrible and inexcusable, and was exactly the sort of situation that called for a hard slap across the face. If I had seen someone do that, even if I didn't know the victim, I am fairly sure I would hit them in the face and protect her, regardless of if I respected or liked them. It's just wrong.

My mother was beaten by her first husband, and even today I can still not imagine this happening to her, or fathom why someone would beat any woman, but in this case especially because of her strong, forceful personality. But she loved him, and we all know how that will impair your judgement.

Gilda, what are you afraid of?

abaya

Gilda, in addition to my last question in post #127, I have another question that occurred to me while I walked to class today:

If a boy at school (or even a male teacher) had brushed your breast on purpose, what would be your immediate reaction?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

SERPENT7

hrandani,
In my opinion, the fact that she didn't get angry is NOT because she enjoyed it, (as you SEEM to be implying) but because she was afraid and/or blamed herself. It is VERY common for a girl/woman to blame herself rather than the other person. Women are conditioned by western society to devalue themselves. Is it any surprise then that they do?

Gilda

Anxiety would be more accurate, but yeah, I'm a bit insecure about being out on my own. There are a number of factors involved that determine how comfortable I am. If I'm, say, at the mall in a women's clothing store, I'm ok, though I feel better if I'm with Grace or Sissy. If I'm in a place where most of the clientele is male, that tends to give me pause.

I'd pull back and get away quickly, as I did here. If it were a boy, and I was absolutely sure he did it intentionally, I'd write up a behavior referral, and if he were in my class ask that he be transferred. If it were a teacher, and I were sure it was intentional, I'd file a complaint for sexual harrassment.

The problem comes with being sure it was intentional. I'm not a mind reader, so if it were an isolated incident, I'd probably assume that it was incidental, and just let it go so long as it didnt' recur. I'd certainly be reluctant to embroil myself in a situation that holds the potential for a lot of grief for both me and the other person, and in the absense of knowledge that it was intentional, I'd really want to avoid the negative attention that would likely come from reporting it.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

I am a public speaker, that I have no problem with. It doesn't help in an informal confrontation, which bears little resemblance to teaching or giving a speech, both of which I've done on many occasions and am quite comfortable with.

Making a scene also draws attention to me, something I'd much prefer to avoid, something I was trying to avoid in the first place.

For those suggesting a physical response/self defense classes: Some of us are just no good at physical confrontation. If I know I'm not a physical threat, there's no way I can project the idea that I am.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

I don't decide what my emotional reactions are going to be in a given situation. I was scared and felt . . . I don't know the word. Dirty? Used? It's hard to say. Embarrassed certainly.

I think you need to read the OP a little more carefully. I did have an immediate reaction. I left the store and called my sister then went home.

It's upsetting because I don't like being touched sexually by strange men. I'd think that would be obvious.

I did move out of the aisle, then out of the store. I felt too uneasy going in there to go back after he'd left, and wanted some comfort, so I went to where I could find it.

Well, having a guy touch me sexually for one. Being embarrassed in public for another. Confronting the guy after the first had already occurred would have brought the second, making the situation worse.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

klined

Whay can't this happen to men behing 7-11's???

SERPENT7

Gilda,
I highly doubt you are co-dependent. (This really applies to an addictive behavior. Is Sissy trying to imply you are addicted to Gracie, or what? I don't get it.) At most, you are physically fearful, and rely on Gracie as a shield against a world you find threatening. This makes me sad.
I find it interesting that most if not all of the peeps telling you to escalate the sit. most likely have never been in a violent confrontation, let alone gotten beaten for thier efforts. I understand your decision to flee.
I have never been able to understand the conflict avoidant personality, however. This is a discussion i must have with my FriendGirl, and maybe after some insight, i can give more productive support.
Also: love for you, and hate for him.

Cimarron29414

Gilda,

I don't know how to say this other than to say it: Every indication I see from your story and your responses implies a victim's mentality. You are enslaving yourself to this and it is negatively affecting your life and the lives of your loved ones. It WOULD do you some good to go to defense and strength classes - if only to improve your awareness and confidence. You seem to be a wonderful person who is denying herself a lot of opportunities by not overcoming this internal struggle.

You say you aren't cut out for confrontation - maybe that is because you have no experience or training in that matter. Thus, you are conditioning yourself to continue to be a target for people and continuing the cycle in your life. Break the cycle by going to the defense classes and refer back to my post# 125.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

SERPENT7

Cim,
This is not helping her. She has already stated she is not interested in confronting, or learning to do so. She (It seems to me) wants only to AVOID being targeted. So cut the macho stuff out, and try to see things from her side of things.

Cimarron29414

Not possible, unless you want to live your life in your house with endless meals of Domino's pizza. If you want to be a member of society, you are going to encounter people that you wouldn't want to encounter. The only thing one can do to prevent exploitation is equip themselves with the knowledge to prevent it AND to improve one's ability to protect themselves in the event that confrontation is unavoidable.

That knowledge and power changes posture, pheromones, and intangible things that say "don't fuck with me". That is the only hope in avoiding situations such as this. Again, the only reason she was targeted is because this guy didn't think there were consequences to his action. If you can not convey to a person (through body language) that there WILL be consequences for the actions, then you will continue to be targeted and we are back to 21 pizza meals a week.

And there is NOTHING that I said was "macho". Self-empowering, maybe, but not macho.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Gilda

My face was painted with exaggerated stage makeup sure to shock anyone I might ask for help. Sure to draw attention when I needed to go unnoticed in this place. I was in what passed for Nashville's ghetto. In my pocket was a fat roll of 20 dollar bills and beside me lay a piece of jewelry bigger than my head . . . There was a phone about a block away, and I walked with a tired expression that I hoped said, "I really don't want to be bothered with kickin' your ass."

Calpernia Addams

That quote just seemed relevant to this discussion somehow.

That's pretty much Sissy's take on it. I rely so heavily on Grace for protection that it limits me in being able to be assertive on my own. I don't deny this, but I also don't see anything wrong with it. That's the way the adult world works; when you aren't able to do something for yourself, you find someone who can do it to do it for you. That's one of the principles civilization is built on, division of labor. We have soldiers and police to provide protection for us as a society. We have parents to do the same as children. I have Grace to do that for me as an individual. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Grace can't cook and hates housework, so I do that for her, and because of this, she's never really learned how and posesses no desire. Nor does she need to; she has me for that. We complement each other. That's not co-dependancy, that's a healthy relationship based on trust and respect.

Thank you.

It makes perfect sense to me. Being shy and introverted has just as many benefits as it does problems. I can't tell you how many girls I was attracted two after I came to accept that I was gay that I never tried to ask out. Because I was too shy to do anything about it, too scared of being embarrassed by hitting on a straight girl, I was saved the embarrassment and awkwardness of doing and saying something embarassing. Being scared of social interaction kept me from going to lesbian bars alone, which is why I was alone and available when Grace and I found each other.

Being introverted means avoiding risks. Avoid the risk, avoid the negative consequences. True, it also means avoiding the rewards, but in my experience it's a good tradeoff. Avoid conflict and you avoid getting hurt. It's a simple equation.

You don't know enough about my family to make judgements regarding how my lack of assertiveness affects them. Yes, I'm submissive, but, and I understand that this may be difficult to understand, I like it that way. I like having a strong person to take care of and protect me, to make the important decisions on our behalf. This is the kind of relationship I want, the kind of relationship in which I'm happiest.

Second, I have access to defense training right here at home should I desire to take advantage of it. I don't. I'd much, much rather avoid the physical confrontation than be involved in one. Being hit is one of my very least favorite things in the world, and I've been hit often enough to know that it's something I never, ever want to experience again under any circumstances.

Experience has shown me that a physical confrontation means getting hurt. Fighting back against a man larger than I am means getting hurt worse. If I can flee a physical confrontation, I will.

I'm conditioning myself? I'm merely being realistic. I've been in enough physical confrontations that I know exactly how confronting a man physically will turn out before it even begins. Taking precautions to avoid and prevent that seems a resonable and realistic assessment of my abilities.

I can go out with my wife and/or sister and enjoy activities together.

I'm a fully participating member of society. I've been a middle school teacher and will begin teaching at the university level this January. I've given presentations at teaching conferences and couseled gay teenagers. To imply that a lack of assertiveness in social and physical situations somehow makes me a lesser member of society borders on insult.

Of course you're going to encounter people you don't want to. This doesn't mean that a confrontation with them is inevitable. It's often quite easy to avoid the confrontation, to walk away, to refuse to participate, and if a confrontation does occur, it needn't escalate to a physical confrontation.

Utter nonsense. In addition to common sense prevention measures, like parking in well lit areas, having my groceries carried out and loaded for me, not going to clubs by myself, I can go out with protection in the form of my wife, something I do quite frequently, and have her protection. I can go out with my sister, and though she'd be no better off in a fight than I would, numbers provide us with protection.

And there's nothing wrong with just being more comfortable at home than out. It's just how some of us are wired.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Cimarron29414

Gilda,

Sounds like you have it all figured out. I guess I fail to see the point of starting this thread then, other than to seek our counsel and sympathy - both of which you received from me.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Gilda

The point of starting the thread was to explore how I was feeling about having been fondled by a strange man, and to try to figure out why I was targeted so that I could use that information to avoid a repeat. Writing and or talking about difficult experiences is how I figure out how do deal with them.

It's true that I lack assertiveness when in public by myself, mostly as a result of a lack of physical courage and a desire not to offend others or embarrass myself, a desire to avoid conflict and confrontation if at all possible. I recognize those things, but don't really know how to get around them, so I've come to the conclusion that it's better to accept my limitations and live within them rather than make myself miserable by setting goals that I know going in I'll not be able to reach.

I just think I'm being realistic.

For example, in this thread people have pointed out that the predators can read me and know how I'm going to react, and that part of the reason I was targeted was that I was in "their" territory. I had always thought of such places as hobby shops and comic stores as "nerd territory", so being a nerd myself, I saw those places as my territory. I hadn't thought to look at it as the guys thinking of it as guy territory rather than nerd territory. Maybe I just tend to forget that there aren't a lot of female comic geeks and needed to be reminded of that.

Armed with that knowledge, that I project something that might lead some predators to target me, and that in certain environments I'm read as an outsider no matter how I think of myself, I can now make smarter decisions. I can't change the first part, but I can avoid going into what are predominantly male environments without Grace along for protection.

Being violent simply isn't an option for me. I must have communicated poorly about that part, given the number of people here who keep advocating a violent response. You're suggesting it in the abstract. I've been in violent confrontations with men larger than me, and I know from experience that fighting only gets you hurt worse. Escalating the situation to physical violence would not have taken away the offense, and would likely have gotten me hurt physically as well as very upset.

Let me see if I can be perfectly clear. Had I gotten violent with him, there would have been no possible outcome that would have been better than leaving did. Leaving gave me the best way to avoid being physically hurt, and the best way to avoid being further humiliated. Not going back prevents me from being placed in the same situation again. Yes, he got away with it, but I don't really give a damn about how he feels about it. Hurting him, punishing him in some way, would have required doing something that would have made the situation worse for me.

I don't mind that you presented an alternate way of looking at things. That I disagree with you doesn't mean that I'm dismissing your ideas as irrelevant or that I mind your presenting them. That is what this place is about, after all. What I mind is the manner of presentation, which seemed a bit insulting in tone.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

SERPENT7

Gilda,
Thankyou for some insight into conflict avoidance/introversion.
Peeps often get defensive when a friend is targeted. This why soo many peeps wanted you to kick his ass. Not just to punish him, but to express thier anger at thier own inability to protect you. Thier anger at him translates into affection for you.

Also, NO ONE can immunize you from further trouble. While on the one hand i see what you are saying about division of labor, the stove will not burn the house down if Gracie is in front of it, and you step away for a moment, whereas creeps might try for you as soon as your protector is out of sight. I still think you should try to find a way to fend for yourself, or not take it sooo personal when 'they' step out of line. (My sister in law got fondled pretty much all the way through europe, but she NEVER once shed a tear over it! I'm sure it was frustrating, but just the same.)
I guess what i am trying to say is why does it impact you so strongly? Because of your history i can see where it comes from, but maybe you should be getting counseling for that stuff. (If you are not already.)
I feel like this might be a little forward, though. Sorry about that.

Gilda

The same is true of everyone. What I'm talking about isn't eliminating the possibility of being targeted, but reducing the probability.

I've never been unrealistic about this. I know that I need her far more than she needs me, that my contribution to the relationship is of less importance than hers. I'm very fortunate that she doesn't seem to mind this.

Geez, that really sounds like a horrible way to spend a trip. Does your sister in law give off signals that attract guys like people have been saying I must be doing, or are European men just a lot more aggressive toward women in general? Or do they just respect women that little? What did she do to protect herself? It obviously wasn't very effective if it kept happening.

I'd never be able to do something like that on my own, and not just because of the reason you give, but because I'm just not brave enough for that sort of thing. Are European men really that aggressive? Do we really live in a world where men care so little about women that a large number of them will just randomly grope any woman they encounter?

I've been working for quite some time to try not to believe such things, not to be afraid of men. This doesn't do much to reassure me that I've been wrong.

I don't like being touched sexually by a man. Aggressive men scare me because they can hurt me easily and there's little to nothing I could do about that. Combine physical aggresssion and sexual touching, and it's a double whammy. I don't see why that's difficult to understand.

I am. I have been for several years now. I think I mentioned that above. We do work on assertiveness. That's one of the reasons I told Sissy she could take off with her friends that day and stayed rather than go home. That's the reason I went back, twice, to the store where it happened even though I found that very, very uncomfortable. In this case, being assertive backfired on me, but I did learn something about myself and how I'm viewed in certain contexts, so I suppose that's a good thing because now I know to avoid such places without having some more protection with me.

Not a problem. If I didn't want to discuss such issues, I wouldn't have started the thread. You at least haven't been rude to me.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Aro23

after reading this post, this really annoys me as some guys would do this, gotta be such a loser for doing such a thing. doesn't matter where you are, or what time is it. guys just has to respect women.

SERPENT7

Gilda,
My sister-in-law was by herself, and going through italy and spain. The men there are VERY macho, to the point of being mysogynistic. (imho) They think they are chivalrous, but they will not allow women to exist w/o thier 'protection'. I know what you are asking yourself. Protection form whom, right? From other men, of course! Most of western society is not like that, but there are still throw backs. As far as protecting herself, she was just rude, and laughed at them and made them feel stupid. (For the most part they were just being immature ass-hats, and not being at all threatening.)
My point in telling you this originally was to...try and..say 'don't let it bother you'? but i realize now that sounds stupid, and not productive. I guess i don't know... i don't have the answers, and i don't like to admit it. Least of all to myself. (Wehw!)
I HATE the fact that you feel a comic shop is hostile territory, now. It isn't i swear! Most of us fellow bookworms would sooo not want to scare off the ladies! There are so few of them around us as it is. Why do you think the most we can ever work up our courage to do is 'sidle'?
I'm sorry i don't always make the most sense, I am still trying to get a grip on how i would feel if this happened to me or mine.

Gilda

Ah rudeness. That one's difficult for me, too, and ties into my lack of assertiveness.

I'm not sure I could view being fondled by anyone other than a lover in any way other than threatening.

I've seen Sissy have to put up with it nearly every time we flew anywhere in the US when she was still pre-op. It upset her a little, but she got over it quickly, and just chalked it up to it being one of the prices she had to pay for her condition.

Maybe it's a little more intense for me because I find being touched sexually by a man under any circumstances distasteful. Maybe not. It's hard to say for sure, which is why I think discussions like this can be productive.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert