MrFriendly

LOL!

Man I can't believe that made it out of this little country haha.

As for your other comments though, I mean sure, we could have ranted at the OP, but what purpose would it serve? At that point it would either be a troll getting what they wanted or someone so committed to their mindset that it would just enforce that we're wrong and they're right.

Constructive criticism and analysis might not achieve much, but it might, just might, give the OP something to think about and plant a tiny seed in their head which maybe, just maybe, sprout and make them consider a different point of view.

__________________
You are not a slave

Makhnov

If you are a moderator here, please indicate this in your messages. Thanks.


I have actually started a thread on this forum that raises the question about whether Kant was a hippie. I say that he was not. Here is the irony - the person who said that "Kant was the first hippie" was none other than Ayn Rand. So if I am looking to disprove this about him, this places me firmly against her interpretation of that old german.

(The fact that Baraka Guru overlooked this reference is telling.)

---------- Post added at 04:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------

This is dishonest in the extreme. You are pointing at another human being who does not agree with the laws in the United States of America, and then you are declaring the person's worldview to be "skewed". You should know.. I don't know if you do -- You should know for a fact that the laws in the USA are not formulated by intellectuals in an ivory tower, and they never have been.

Habermas is a follower in the tradition of post-structuralism. The most important name in post-structuralist philosophy is none other than Michel Foucault. And lets be honest about what kinds of changes Foucault wanted. Foucault, along with a circle of other french intellectuals, wanted to abolish the AOC. (I am not here to discuss AOC. We can start another thread on that.) The larger point supported by this example is that even the most highly-educated, highly-read philosophers of the Western World were not happy with the laws. In fact the most radical of social ideologues come from halls of the universities. This was never more true than in pre-revolution Russia. 1960s France is also a prime example.

Your contention that if I study philosophy at the graduate level, that I will somehow come to realize the deep wisdom of the laws in the USA. Baraka Guru, sir, that idea is pure bullshit and you know it. (more on this later).

I'm not into death metal or gangsta rap. Thank you for bringing up Fight Club. I have never liked that movie. I don't like it now. I completely do not understand why everyone around me keeps telling me that movie is "So good". I can't see what is good about it. The main character was not in control of his mind. Not mine kind of hero, sorry.

Please spare me these "kind-of-guy" posts. It is nothing but slander and flame-war baiting.





"Post-feminism" is a word that I made up. It is not to be confused with Feminism proper. Feminism proper, in my lingo stands for that which is taught in university depts usually called Women's Studies. Post-feminism is characterized by a handful of mostly american sensibilities about how the sexes "should" interact with each other. Just to give you a cursory glance at some of the aspects of post-feminism, I will drop a few statements. But keep in mind the topic is much larger than just these statements. The following things should be taken as small bites out of a much larger argument (of which I don't feel like wasting my time talking about right now.) But you should get a general feeling from these cursory examples. It is very likely you have heard many of these before.

1. "Men do not have strong preferences because they are supposed to bed anything they can get. And as much as they can get. For this reason, they are not picky about their partners."
2. "Men hunt. Women nest."
3. "Women want commitment while men are naturally promiscuous."
etc.
etc.

And sure. Many of these claims at the heart of post-feminism are supported by all sorts of elaborate arguments about paleolithic cave men. These kinds of botched myths are very compelling to many americans who are more than ready to yell them loudly in conversation in support of their modern lifestyle.

This is part and parcel of people who think the laws and mores and morals of their local culture are supported by the very fabric of biology and physical reality. They are not. Every culture thinks it is enlightened. Humans have been playing this justification game since at least the early medieval era.

Baraka_Guru

There are evolutionary explanations that contradict your claims of a post-feminism, a big one being the loss of estrus, or "concealed ovulation," in human beings. This shift gave greater reproductive power towards the female compared to other primates. This encouraged males to invest more into the relationship. Despite your claims on male sexuality, you've so far neglected to acknowledge a male's desire for sexual access vs. a female's ability to protect that access. Sure there are males who pick low-hanging fruit and settle for sexual access to females of unusually low self-esteem, but many females aren't so willing as sexual partners simply for the sake of sex, and not all males are about sex for the sake of sex.

I will choose to overlook your previous comments on philosophy, as you are participating in that picking and choosing thing I mentioned. Much like your approach to feminism, it acts as a smoke screen to veil your true intent, which is your desire to share your gusto for having no-strings-attached sexual encounters. I have nothing against that in itself; I just wish you would be more forthright about it and stop making it sound like you're onto something big that we're all overlooking.

You want to fuck women and lots of them.

Yay.

How postmodern of you. You're a decade or a few too late, however.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Makhnov

Define irony. A man posting on a forum that grew out of trading naked photos of women's bodies, ranting and raving about unhealthiness and aesthetics. I'm going to have a lot to say about this. The irony will only grow thicker as I write.

Pointing out that women have a desire to start a family, and that this life plan is concealed until the time is right. Warning other men that they do this is "misogyny"? No, I don't think it is.

Americans have in their brains a capacity for cognitive dissonance that is breathtaking in its scope. Even while the laws of their nations are completely senseless, they somehow are able to conversationally provide a botched justification for them. If you pay a woman for services in the privacy of your own home, she is a "prostitute" and the business transaction is a crime punishable with prison time. But if you invite three friends over and film the action, then presto, she is a "porn actress" and your act is legal. Not only legal; the material in the video camera can be uploaded at the website of your choosing.

There is a section of this forum dedicated to nude photography. I am a huge admirer of this kind of thing, and I have had the pleasure of seeing the inside of the business in at least a small way. I'm huge fan of Petter Hegre. Grigori Galitsin was the original genius, but his work is looking dated. In any case, the english-speaking world was not spearheading the radical changes made to erotic photography in and outside the internet. The americans had Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, all of which were alien to what Galitsin started doing in the first years of this decade.

I know there must be other admirers of this type of photography on this forum. I want to bring you guys a little bit behind the curtain of this business. Know that the vast majority of the girls you are looking at are from eastern europe. I guess I could ask you guys how long you expect to "look at the catalog" before taking some assertive action in your life in the direction of what you like.

To tie this back into prostitution, know that these models are being payed to do work in front of the camera. Money is exchanging hands for services. I ask, when Mr. Hegre was traveling in Kiev, Ukraine, where is it that you guys think he picked up these models? Do you think he went searching at the local library? Do you think he posted wanted ads outside of schools? Of course not. He walked straight into establishments where people were already working in the adult entertainment business. Yeah. He walked into strip clubs. Basically.

Go look at the photos posted in the Erogenous Zone of this forum. Allow me to bring a reality check between you and the jpegs. Do you think that none of the girls in those photographs are strippers? No, some of them are. You don't think some of those girls are leveraging their immaculate bodies for a little bit more than mere photography? Dream on. Your mind is in Magical Candyland. Let me bring your mind back to earth. Some of them are.

Doubtlessly, some of you are going to go running to google to find out who Grigori Galitsin is. Maybe one of you will notice he was getting models from massage salons in St. Petersburg. Then maybe, just maybe, you will come to realize how unrealistic your worldview is. But if you are american, such reflective thinking probably won't take place upstairs.

I will say to you Mr. levite, that your idea that you could lecture me on unhealthiness and aesthetics. That is the height of audacity. I can tell from your "slender, athletic frame" that I should be lecturing you on those things and not the other way around.

---------- Post added at 05:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 AM ----------

You wildly misinterpreted my post. I was actually saying the opposite. I am a very choosy man with lots of really strange preferences. I disagree whole-heartedly with the idea that men have no choices because their cave man ancestors must spread their genes a lot. I'm very choosy.

I'm not going to grab curb-crawlers. Not my thing. Way too dangerous. And who is to say I actually want to fuck women? Maybe I don't. Maybe I prefer to photograph them or tie them up. How would you know? If I am going to photograph models, I am going to be be paying them anyway. And what better way to see what you might be buying. Modeling is an excuse to interact at a business level before committing to anything. It is a good alternative lifestyle that does not involve coercion. I openly promote it to all men.

mcgeedo

The more I read this thread, the more I find myself feeling the same way. An exchange of ideas is stimulating; rebutting one whose motivation is, as you point out, either justifying their own distorted views or trolling is just tedious at this point in my life. Very astute, mixedmedia.

Makhnov

No. I'm not a troll getting giggles from any of this. Americans and british are freaking out in this thread because they can't verbalize exactly what their fears are. They are claiming I am going to exploit and coerce poor women into heinous acts. Their statements in that regard are ten times more "Trollish" than anything I have posted here. They have absolutely no reason to believe that I am going tro hurt anyone.

They "think" I'm going to hurt someone because either,
(1) The phrase "overseas prostitution" means something bad because they heard something bad about it on TV.
(2) They are trolls who have a post-feminist agenda. They use slander and wit to avoid having to justify their worldview. In essence, their worldview is "justified" because they can simply conjure from their friends list a coterie of nannies freaking out in the same way.

Let me try to soothe your fears. Culture and morals are different in different parts of the world. If a person's nation is not serving his interests, he should have the freedom to go to a place that does. The alternative argument to that, does not make any sense. ("He should suffer in order so that a woman can have a nice life with lots of babies in the suburbs" ??! "He should inflict suffering upon himself to maintain a relationship. Because not maintaining a relationship is unhealthy. So he should subject himself to it no matter how miserable he becomes." ??! )

mcgeedo

I have few fears, and none at all with regard to what you may or may not do.

I have traveled extensively as well. I suspect that prostitution is no less exploitative in Los Angeles than in Bangkok, just less extensive and a smaller part of GDP. Whether you choose to hurt someone is independent of where you purchase sex. It's an innate part of your character.

I don't feel the need to justify my worldview; why do you feel such a need? What, exactly, are you looking for here? If you could get your wish, what would you see written by the others here?

Your misogyny is independent of your rationalizations. Selectively quoting Kant, Kegel, Focault or Elmer Fudd may help you feel better about your choices, but that doesn't sell them.

Would you dispute that it is a success trait for the species for a man to engage in a stable monogamous relationship? I imagine you would. Tell me why, please.

Makhnov

Right. Anyone who does not live like you must be engaging in exploitation. You know this as you have "traveled extensively". And the word "exploitation" means what? Exploitation is okay in any other economic situation, it is just when a "pretty innocent princess" is involved it somehow makes it a crime. Unfortunately, the pretty innocent princess is a character you created in your mind. The real world does not work like the movies.


And every human being everywhere chooses whether to hurt a person around them. Do you believe police in uniform have a magical crystal in their head that stops them from abusing their power? They don't. They, like you and me, also choose.

Abuse exists in the world. I will not deny that. But your trollish assertion that I am hurting someone is baseless slander. You know nothing about my real life.


If it is your desire to physically stop me, then I deserve an explanation for why you feel the need to put me in a prison cell.


I have quoted those thinkers for specific reasons in particular conversations. Your pretending like I quote them FOR THE MEANS OF a justification is a flat lie. Anyone can scroll up and see that you are lying.


Men who get women pregnant propagate their traits through their offspring? Really? I didn't know. Is there anything else you wanted to ask me?

Oh, I see. You wanted to say that such men are better men than I am. Okay. I got it. Just make sure you read this article before you reply,

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mo...ralism/#NatFal

And then after you get done, make sure to log into forums for gay men to tell them how much better their heterosexual counterparts are.

levite

1. Porn is not a lifestyle choice.

2. I agree, most mainstream porn is philosophically untenable, and therefore do not support it. I also have frequently questioned whether some other "homemade" porn is much better, in that it may be exchanging exploitation for support of psychological unhealthiness.

3. I have already noted that I support legalizing prostitution, and most other "vice" crimes. This is not about legality or illegality, but about psychological and spiritual health and integrity, as well as empathic relations with fellow human beings.

4. The majority of the participation by members at this site does not appear to be porn-oriented, but rather toward excellent discussion of many issues and amusements by relatively psychologically healthy and integrated (if quirky) individuals.

5. Whatever you think you can tell from my profile photo is irrelevant. My comments were made in regard to psychological health and spiritual integrity, not athleticism or body size. And if you're criticizing my aesthetic appeal, that is also irrelevant, in that you were not invited to have sex with me, or to judge my physical beauty. Rather, you are using this red herring of a personal attack to attempt to anger me into retaliating, so that you may feel superior. But I am not angry: to the contrary, seeing how strongly you push others away, I feel more compassion for you.

6. You continue to describe women's behavior in terms that are obsessively paranoid, accusing them universally of unsavory behaviors that I, and clearly most others here also, seldom if ever have noted in our female acquaintances. That is misogyny. Plain and simple. I'm sorry if hearing that is unpleasant. But truth often is.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

mixedmedia

You didn't answer his question.
No one has said anything about locking you up. What kind of acknowledgment are you hoping to find here? And why?
I happen to agree with you that prostitution should be legal. I think the industry should be taken out of the hands of criminals thereby making it safer for sex workers and free from the corruption, coercion, exploitation of those who are not in the field by choice - so that those young men and women who would rather, I dunno, settle down and start a family have that choice.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

MrFriendly

I had quite a well thought out response written and then just realised that all I'm reading is 'merher herder I'm too much of a pussy to let my shit go and see women as anything other than just people'. (And before people rag on my spelling, we use Queens English down here :P)

Keep building walls around yourself man, see how far it gets you in life. Sure as fuck didn't get me very far, now I'm late 20's and wishing I could take my younger years back and have just gone running into the dark with knives out when it came to relationships no matter what the risk.

But one is where they are, all you can do is move forward either correcting the mistakes of the past or making them all over again. So are you going to wall yourself in and play it safe so you don't get hurt? Or are you going to stand up and remember you have a pair and realise there's far worse things than a broken fucken heart and give people a chance.

You won't, because I'm getting sense of the kind of person you are, but, you'd do pretty well to ask yourself what you have to lose by letting people in, especially women. For all your high brow talk and reasoning, all I see is another chicken shit too scared of getting hurt. It's OK though bro, been there myself too.

I can't articulate myself nearly as well as the other fine folk on this forum can, I guess what I'm getting at is the question for you to ponder is: are you're choosing your life style because it's really what you want and feel, or are you're just too lazy or scared to try an alternative. Only you can answer that, for yourself, and you sure as shit don't have to justify it to anyone else. But the talk you've come here with, man, it's obvious you're not justifying it to us, because I can tell you couldn't give a shit what we think, you're justifying it to you. Spend enough times in forums and you soon realise that most of the time people aren't seeking advise or discussion, they're seeking affirmation of their own position.

If there's one thing I've come to learn, someone who knows themselves well and what they're doing doesn't justify themselves to anyone, especially themselves.

__________________
You are not a slave

Makhnov

I have no reason to believe that this universe has a moral code. Wealth is obtained through horrible means. And it has been for thousands of years. And we lean back and say "Welp! You can't touch the free market cuz that would be socialism!" There is nothing going on in this world except human beings manipulating other human beings for their own profit. There is nothing out there. There is no magic on this planet, and no souls inside us. The actual nature of men's sexuality is nothing at all like the romance depicted in Twilight. "Spiritual health" is absolute nonsense to my eyes. You might as well have typed a string of random keyboard characters.



This tactic of isolating people who are different from you and deeming them "unhealthy", while calling yourself and all your friends "healthy" is very common on the internet and very stupid.


More of these nonsense phrases. "Spiritual integrity". I have no idea what you are saying. But I can attempt to glean from the rest of the words in your post what "Spiritual Integrity" means. I assume in practice, women are handed all the power and choice to run around the world selecting their male doggy pals, while the men's choices are completely sublimated. Men become passive receptacles to women's finnicky desires, however those desires change or however concealed they are. You don't mind at all being a little slave to your Mistress -- in fact you have built up in your mind an entire mythology based around "spiritual integrity". Your spiritual shtick is completely transparent to me.


Your inability to note that women are doing this to you is irrelevant to whether it is actually happening. There is simply no way to avoid these behaviors, because these behaviors are precisely what defines a "relationship" in the first place! A person cannot leave their house without diving head and shoulders into a game of manipulation with other human beings. And you seek to declare your loyalty to some woman? Who does that serve? It's not serving you. It's not serving me. Oh, but I'm sure it is the "right thing to do", eh? Serve thy Female Master.

You are human male just like me, levite. The way your brain functions, the way your body functions, and the way your penis functions is not different than mine. This "spiritual" crap you spin on this forum is all well-acted theater. You are not that different from me. The only difference between me and you is that you are playing a very elaborate game, and I am telling the truth about the way the world actually functions.

So you have surrounded yourself with other delusional people who buy into your spiritual crap. You are a salesman making up pretty stories, and they are all buying it. In the end you are still engaging in persuasion and manipulation, its just that your game is wrapped up in pretty packaging. You have totally lost your ability to verbalize your sexual preferences. And even if you still retained such ability, you would never admit them out loud, because that would disturb the mythological plot you are spinning among the people you manipulate.

But we enlightened people are on a healthy spiritual path to lift humanity up to the... No. Anymore of that crap will be ignored. If you don't like it, get hell out of this thread.

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------

The world does not operate in the way you are describing. The planet earth is not a big movie where the moral good guys win in the end. If you have preferences and desires, you must take a set of rational steps to obtain those desires. You may be young right now and so you have not seen this clearly. Eventually some time in your life you will realize the truth of the matter.

I would assume that you are not very concerned with your own sexual desires and preferences, you probably could not articulate them. Or you have never really thought about it. You may be perfectly satisfied with "hooking up" with a nice girl from your workplace. If that is what you like, go do it. If you are into the girl next door, genuinely, go for it. But that is not satisfying for everyone. In my case it is not even desirable.

I don't see any indication from your posts that you take the position of levite and company. I think those people would self-flagellate in order to maintain a relationship. They would maintain the relationship no matter what, even if both parties are miserable. They would suffer through it. They do what they do and I'm not in their universe. They are on some sort of spiritual journey or some shit. I'd like to get an idea of where you stand on that, or any other thoughts would be fine too.

jewels

If you'd like others to hear what you're saying, have you ever considered sharing a piece of yourself?

The difference between you and a majority of TFP posters is that we bare, although not necessarily in photos, a bit of ourselves to one another. We share pieces of who we are and what makes us tick. You, however, have chosen to jump in and create a huge splash, but you didn't tell us you had tentacles. Maybe if we knew more about you and your past, we wouldn't them so odd.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

mcgeedo

No, you haven't offered to answer my question. Are you going to? I also wonder if you'd like to share a link to one or more of the "variety of other forums" you're active on where your particular issue is being discussed?

curiousbear

When I was very young, 11 years old. A cat with milky fur fell in the well in my home. It was alive and we rescued it. I still remember so clear how scared the cat was and how it reacted at us. May be it hardly understood that we are actually helping it. We rescued it for two reasons. One to help the cat to get out. Two if it stays in and dies the water will be spoiled. I understood this clearly.

Next year a cat fell in a well nearby. It was an abandoned well in a empty plot. We were playing outside and heard the sound. We saw the cat inside. The well had no water. When I thought no one would bother.... The same set of folks gathered and we all tried to rescue the cat. Then we just realized this one is a wild cat. I thought we are going to abandon the effort. But no, the rescue continued. By the time we managed to get it close to the surface, we all backed off significant as the cat was furious at us.

To till date I wonder why we rescued the second cat.

Reading this thread I got so much reminded of the second cat, the wild one.

ring

When I read these two paragraphs written by Makhnov,
I'm hearing a sales pitch & recruiting language:

"I am here to find other men who travel for the purposes of buying services. I am active on a variety of other forums related to that. All of this subject matter must be brought up in attempt to highlight those men who are sympathetic of the message, and to inoculate the conversation of fathers and other romantics."

"I want to bring you guys a little bit behind the curtain of this business. Know that the vast majority of the girls you are looking at are from eastern europe. I guess I could ask you guys how long you expect to "look at the catalog" before taking some assertive action in your life in the direction of what you like."

I agree with mixedmedia that prostitution should be taken out of the hands of criminals.
Hopefully, by legalizing it, there will be some guards in place to protect sex workers from those such as Makhnov,
that spew this gender hatred so freely.

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 PM ----------

I should do some more reading on how Canada is faring with protecting their sex workers.
It's a subject I'm not that familiar with.

---------- Post added at 02:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

Oh....and this paragraph is a fine prime example of a pathetic,
not so subtle attempt at 'forced teaming':


"You are human male just like me, levite. The way your brain functions, the way your body functions, and the way your penis functions is not different than mine. This "spiritual" crap you spin on this forum is all well-acted theater. You are not that different from me. The only difference between me and you is that you are playing a very elaborate game, and I am telling the truth about the way the world actually functions."

mixedmedia

People who can't answer a straight question are very annoying. So in lieu of actual information I can only assume that this gentleman wants to fuck young eastern European girls legally and without any kind of commitment. And you know, that doesn't bother me in the slightest. Folks could talk all day about that shit because it's titillating and its interesting.

What sticks in my craw, so to speak, are his vague comments about there being 'no moral code' and 'other cultures are different' which left to my own devices is code for, 'yeah, I know some of these girls are underage, I know some of these girls have been forced into prostitution, but damn, I love fucking 'em so much.' Which, of course, is something only a scumbag would think and I don't give a fuck where you come from or where you are. Just a few simple words would clear it all up, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Redlemon

I'm hearing the same things that ring and mixedmedia are hearing. Also, Makhnov writes as a "true believer/prophet", and I doubt anything we could say to him would change his mindset.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

levite

Why are you so angry? And why so instinctively distrustful? And how did you come to be in such pain?

I absolutely believe you when you tell me you believe in nothing, and have no idea what I mean by spiritual integrity. Clearly you have been living in an environment so toxic that the usual human empathy and spirituality and desires to love and be loved in return have been aggressively trampled and buried somewhere deep within you, if they have not been cut out of you altogether. You must have been terribly, terribly hurt by the people around you.

It seems very unlikely that you will ever feel safe enough to open up, and look within yourself, to try and come to terms with how you have been hurt, and what it has done to you. That kind of safety will surely not come on the internet.

I also doubt that there is anything that I could say that you would listen to. But on the off chance that I am wrong, I will offer you a bit of free and sympathetic advice. Take some of the money that you're spending on prostitutes, and spend it on a good therapist instead. You need to do some serious inner work, friend. For your own good, if not for the good of those who come in contact with you.

Because I assure you, what I am saying is no game; nor should words like spirituality, soul, empathy, and love be meaningless to you, or symbols of some sort of weakness or illusion. Our spirituality, our souls, our empathy for others, our desires to love and be loved by others-- these are the things that make us human beings, that raise us at all above the most savage of animals. Without these qualities, humans become worse than any animal, for while animals attack, kill, mate by force, and devour one another merely out of instinct, and genetic desire for survival, humans without spirituality, empathy, and love are remorseless, pitiless, full of greed, and eager to trample any who get in the way of satisfying their own basest urges.

Whoever caused you the pain that you are in must have been such people. But I urge you not to follow their example. What you fear is actually your greatest strength.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

mixedmedia

I think what you need to understand, levite, is that the modus operandi - the imperious attitude, the conviction that he inhabits a higher plane of consciousness unsullied by the basic nature exhibited by most other humans on the planet, the quite common hatred of women that is coupled with an equally passionate need to fuck them, the glamorization of paying for sex with, ehem, beautiful, young, Eastern European Hegre models - all of this plays into the gratification that he receives from his sex life. And his sex life is what is paramount in his life because he is sexually compulsive. Which is fine, you know. God forbid he does ever get the chance to fuck up some woman's life, lol.

Perhaps we should just leave him be. Maybe he's not so insufferable when talking about other subjects.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Anonymous Member

Who said the OP needed 'rescuing?' The narrow minded and moral superiority type of attitude on this forum blows my mind.

It's as if the majority of this forum's members think in 10s while the OP thinks in repetitions of 6. It's a different worldview. Deal with it, think it through. Don't reflexively resort to 'misogyny' rhetoric.

I'm surprised a forum that talks about fucking siblings, submission, exhibitionism has so much difficulty with someone who wants to pay for sex through and through.

Baraka_Guru

Let's keep this in perspective. This isn't a thread simply about someone who wants to pay for sex. We've seen threads like that and they didn't turn out like this.

The OP made it clear---and even used an enumerated list---that he thinks prostitution is a preferred alternative to merciless interrogation from aggressively insulting, randomly sarcastic, manipulative, man-destroying baby-makers that treat men cruelly to test their compatibility and endurance for a relationship, which will invariably lead to tests of loyalty based on some form of mind-reading witchcraft, and that her trickery knows no bounds and will even go as far as to default men's behaviour as "dangerous" as a way to force him to prove otherwise with the result being his exposing his every secret whilst she reveal none of her own. This, being the natural state of women and their desire for baby-making man-enslavement---and this makes prostitution, of course, a kind of emancipation. Prostitution is emancipation itself.

Oh, and then the OP proceeded to attack the majority of responses not as opinions but as self-deceptions worthy of scorn if not ridicule.

There's a difference.

And I haven't even mentioned the blatant use of presumptions.

I should add, as a statement that summarizes my thoughts on this thread: this is one of those threads we get every so often that has the odd status of being simultaneously misogynist and misandric. I guess to that extent, it's misanthropic.

Levite's most recent post is enlightening on the matter.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Makhnov

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/get-til...-5-2010-a.html

Nice try, though.

I have a little under 30 relevant links. Many of them are not in english. Links will only be sent in private message to people who are genuinely interested.

filtherton

I don't think the "paying for sex" part is the issue here.

The above responses to the OP should be expected from a community which ostensibly defines itself by an openness to sexuality because the opinions expressed in the OP are the very opposite of sexual openness.

Makhnov

Tell me specifically which "straight question" I have not answered. I hope you are not referring to the biology question about monogamous men propagating their traits.

Also, I am under no obligation to share anything about my real life with anyone here. The straight-ness of the question would be irrelevant in that case.

levite

Sure, of course, none of what you say is wrong, MM. I see the same things you do. And I think both of us know that I'm in no way defending the OP's views or rhetoric.

But I guess I just feel bad for him. And believe me, I am not suggesting you should feel the same. If nothing else, I presume that it is in some degree a privilege of maleness that I have the luxury of being able to put aside the distaste I feel for what the OP is saying, and focus on the compassion I feel for a man who has been so grievously wounded. I don't know that I could do the same if I were a woman.

But I guess for me, this kind of also pushes a professional button. I'm not the kind of rabbi for whom pastoral counseling is a career focus and true calling; but sometimes when it's right there...well, that's part of my responses.

And in some degree, I admit my compassion is based partly in the "there but for the grace of God go I" phenomenon. Because to some tiny extent, the OP is right in that, deep down in the hindbrain of all males lives the entirely selfish, savage, unrelenting desire for purely physical sexual pleasure, regardless of the expense to others. That's part and parcel of the reptilian primal drives that run our most animalistic brain. But it's the part of us that countless centuries of socialization and education and psychological work have wrested control from, and layered over with ethics, morality, empathy, and all the other things I mentioned to the OP.

I don't like what the OP says, or where he is coming from. But I respect its power: this is man, stripped, in some way, of civilization. And I pity him.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Redlemon

And... there's the part where he advertises his sex tour company, I'm guessing.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Makhnov

Rest assured I am not going to come within 10 meters of his models. Hegre has been very high-society even at the beginning. He started out as a trained photographer doing projects in Romania that are more like what we would see in National Geographic. He is even more wealthy now. He's really in an ivory tower. His models are serious professionals.

The point that I was making sailed over your head. Let me ra-hash it again so that maybe it will sink in a second time. This website hosts the trading of nude photography. The girls in those photos are being payed to strip naked and have cameras shoved between their legs. Money is exchanging hands. The point was that such business is not alien to prostitution. I keep making these points because what I'm trying to communicate to you is that the world at large does not really contain all these mental divisions and distinctions you hold dear. These divisions and distinctions are being used by you to beat me over the head on an internet forum. Each business man decides on his own to be coercive with the girls he is working with. He makes the decision on the ground about whether he is going to abusive. It is your television screen that tells you there is an "epidemic". But all the trials and suffering of people only happen in local social settings. Even these so-called "guards" that you say are needed to protect the girls don't exist. We are their guards. I am her guard.

(Let me whisper a little secret about the world that you didn't know, mixedmedia, just between me and you. Every man around every woman is her guard. It matters not whether he is her father, a policeman, a pimp, or a club owner. All men make decisions about how they treat the girls around them.)

Having said that, many of the posts in this thread are really flame-war baiting. Because I said the word "overseas" your suburbanite brain immediately began accusing me of engaging in coerced trafficking of the unwilling. That was wrong. That was naive. And that was slanderous. The widespread accusation of "misogyny" is also part-and-parcel of this flame-war tactic. (i.e. If you yell "misogyny" enough times, people will start believing that I am out to hurt someone.) If you read what my posts actually say, you will see that you have no reason at all to be freaking out, pulling your hair, and running in circles to protect someone from monsters.

---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 AM ----------

Thank you for this, Baraka Guru. You've put the whole of it into a nutshell. A run-on, but a nutshell. I tend to be a little long-winded. But my essential message is just a heads up to young men.

Guys : if it is sex you want, you need not subject yourselves to the trials and tribulations of a relationship. There is another, better way to get it. If you didn't know such options were open to you, that's okay, I will show you them.

mcgeedo

Thanks for the reprint of the guidelines. They don't, however, prohibit naming a site that provides information supplemental to a post. Assuming of course that you aren't plugging the site for advertising purposes. If you are still afraid that you might cross the line on the guidelines (which fear doesn't seem to concern you), you may name the site(s) sufficiently such that a Google search would discover them. I am fluent in a couple languages besides English and conversant in several more; that won't be an issue. I would prefer that you not private-message me, thanks.

The question is what did you come here for? What do you expect to read as responses to your posts? If your intent is, in part, to educate us blind souls about the dangers and futility of interpersonal relationships with women, as you've seemed to indicate, why then do you persist in such education when the students aren't receptive to your revealed wisdom? What do you hope to accomplish here? Is this sufficiently plain?

Cynthetiq

I guess you don't have a mother, aunt, or a sister. Maybe you don't even have female friends or colleagues. A wild guess, but if you are as misogynistic as you post, you're truly a devolved individual.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

mixedmedia

The question you didn't answer was: why are you here, why is our approval so important? But you answered it already, I see, when you stated that you were looking for new members for your group. So I guess the vibrant defense has been more about keeping appearances up for the uninitiated than a personal endeavor.

I am sorry that I have been acerbic the last couple of posts, I admit that I have been, but in my own defense it has been mostly w. tongue in cheek...you do make it so easy. You seem to take such pleasure in being inflammatory and tweaking people's noses. Asserting your authority. You know, if you have something to say about 'the real world' of sex tourism then stop tap dancing and just say it. It would be much more interesting than all of this garbage.

For instance, you don't want to be called a misogynist. Why not? You seem to have no positive regard for women. Their very nature seems menacing the way you describe it. Hell, the way you describe them, I think I would hate them...if it were true.

Is this extreme avoidance of relationships and distrust of women common among 'sex tourists'? Is it often a motivating factor?

What is the prevailing attitude amongst sex tourists about sexual slavery and forced prostitution? Is there a sensitivity to it or is it an 'eh, shit happens' kind of thing? You can tell me that it is over-hyped and I wouldn't necessarily argue with you. But there are places in the world where 'sex tourism' occurs and we know that the numbers of young men and women who are underage and/or in the business against their will is significant. Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe being particularly 'hot.' You take great umbrage at people assuming 'bad' things about you, so obviously you want to be seen as an upright person. Maybe even moral. Or am I wrong?

Also, I understand your comparison of prostitution to pornography, but I don't think anyone here is taking exception to legal prostitution nor are they saying you don't have the right to live your life as you see fit. I understand that a lot of women in porn are there for doubtful reasons, that's not a revelation. I'm certainly not surprised to know the same is true for nude models because I spent the better part of a year on the fringes of that subculture and have seen and heard some pretty wild shit from my lady comrades - some of them obviously strung out on drugs and their lives a nightmare of dysfunction. Then there were others who seemed totally centered and professional. Same goes for the women I have met in strip clubs. I've no doubt that in the places where prostitution is legal, the demographics between fucked up and happily raking in the dough is about the same among prostitutes. What's more, as long as they are there by choice, it isn't anyone else's business what their personal life is like. Nor is it a paying customer's job to fix it for them.

I guess that's all I have to say about that. I suppose it's a little disjointed.

Lastly your claim that all men are guardians of women is complete and utter bullshit. If you believe that then you really have a screw loose.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cynthetiq

Makhov, you missed that part.

I think it's because the word means something negative to him in some fashion, just like that fellow who liked to be with little girls didn't like to be called a pedo or the guy who liked to have sex with other males didn't like to be called gay.

That's the best part about words, the individual doesn't control them. He doesn't get to say who calls him what and which definition they choose. No, they decide by action and description what to call someone. So long as it isn't false and the definition fits, it is what the word is.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

The_Dunedan

I remember guys like this, from my time in Prague.

The skeezy Russian gangster with the off-kilter faux-Chicago accent on Vaclavske Namesti or Wilsonova who offers you "young girls, man...-nice- girls!" assuring you that they love the "work" and will show you a "real good time, my man!" while the girls shoot you that "Oh for God's sake not -another- one!" Amphetamine stare and try to hide the bruises.

Actually, he reminds me more of the Sexpats transiting through and trying to score a little Roma pussy before they head for Thailand or Ukraine. Nevermind the fact that while Roma girls are introduced to sex in their early Teens, the experience of prostitution is unbearably humiliating for them: this'd be why so many of Prague's urban Roma women kept getting peeled off the walls of subway tunnels and scraped off the pilings of Charles Bridge and Most Legii, or found with their bellies eaten away by Lye or battery acid. These guys always seemed to be looking for "friends" to either join them or just validate them, someone to tell them that what they were doing was perfectly fine and that the girl's struggles, pained whimpers, and total lack of lubrication were -actually- signs of arousal.

Guys like that used to show up in my neighborhood pub from time to time, trying to pick up people's daughters or wax poetic about the quality of the Junior-High School pussy thereabouts. I can't remember one of that sort ever leaving under his own power. Once fellow came up to me at the bar bragging about his "extreme" porno with "sweet, fresh girls, man, -young- girls, you get me?" I am proud of very few acts of violence in my lifetime, but driving my elbow into his eye-socket was one of them.

Here's the thing: girls/women in certain cultures are raised to what we would consider an "early" sexuality. For Roma or Hmong girls, for instance, early marriage and sexual activity is expected and even celebrated under certain circumstances. Being forced or paid to give themselves to somebody like our OP, however, who obviously hates them and regards them as nothing but a nice warm hole to fuck and treat as he likes, as bereft of emotions or affect, deprived of even a sense of mutual fun and enjoyment? That's a totally different animal. It's the difference between good old fashioned fornication and Rape. Switters and Bad Bobby Case, their liking for too-young ladies included, would have understood the difference: so would Erroll Fuckin' Flynn.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Makhnov

O_O ...

mcgeedo

That's it? Enjoy your thread.

Cimarron29414

Me thinks Dunedan may have hit the head a bit too squarely.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

mixedmedia

yea, verily.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

MrFriendly

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you don't have any female friends, or better still, are one of these people who strongly believe men and women can never have a truly platonic relationship.

You're right about one thing, I'm not very concerned with my own sexual desires or preferences. I can, however, articulate my desires extremely well, that you'll just have to trust me on.

Thing is, your life style that you describe, while I lay no judgment on your choice to have sex with prostitutes while you figure yourself out, it's really just masturbation. You don't really give a shit about the person you're having sex with, you're just getting your rocks off. But hey, that's faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more preferable in my eyes than some of the disgusting, low down douche bag tactics I've seen some narcissists use to get people into bed so they can have sex with themselves.

You and I quite obviously perceive reality very differently which is just part of the magic of being human. However, I can see that nothing is going to shake your perception, so I believe I'll leave it there.

__________________
You are not a slave

Makhnov

Except you didn't leave it there and now you are following me around to other threads to continue your proselytizing.

I think it is clear that your first priority in life is pleasing your Female Master. Perhaps after you die you will be reborn as a dog. A little dog... that yaps.