JamesB

Wow. Suprisingly ignorant and stupid if you ask me.

You most assuredly DO NOT choose to be homosexual. It is MOST CERTAINLY biological in nature.

Keep your eyes peeled for journals such as Nature and New England J. Med. in the next year or so

God.

Even when the biological markers are spelled out for people they will reject it all. Welcome to a round world people.

PS: B.A. much? Lol ..

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Jozrael

I'd just like to thank you guys for this thread.

I've always had some homosexual urges in me. Heterosexual ones as well (more of them, and I suppressed the homosexual ones, so at times I feel straight. Others, I identify as bi. Flavor of the month, I suppose).

At the same time, I'm homophobic. Not heterosexist, but homophobic.

There is NOTHING wrong with homophobia. It is just like claustrophobia, agoraphobia, etc. It is an irrational fear of something that you cannot control. Small spaces, outside places, or homosexuals, it doesn't matter. So that's made a bit of an internal struggle for me at times, having these urges and being afraid of them more so than the average gay/bi at coming out.

Anyways. Fast-forward to present, where I'm with an amazing girl. Our relationship is mindbogglingly close for me - I love it. One of the things that bothered me from time to time, though, is that she is bi. She's experimented with girls in the past.

Now, it may seem horrible, to be who I am and still to have a problem dating a bisexual. I'm sorry - I can't control it.

But, in some way, this thread has helped. I'll post more later when my thoughts clarify.

I'd just like to say thanks.

EDIT: Oh, and again, sorry for the necro. Seems to be a trend of mine today.

shakran

Well i tell ya. I'm straight and I don't EVER remember waking up one morning and saying "I think I'm gonna like GIRLS for the rest of my life!"

So if *I* did not make that choice, it stands to reason that *you* did not make that choice either.

But I'll tell you something else. I really don't give a damn if it's a choice or not. People are running around acting like if it's a CHOICE then we can shun gay people. That's bullshit. I was under the impression that the USA was supposed to be about freedom of choice.

Frankly saying "it's not a choice and therefore you must accept it" is tantamount to saying "it's a good thing it's not a choice because deep down we know it really is bad."

And there is nothing bad or wrong with being gay. Despite some religious nutcases who believe the contrary, you being gay will not turn me gay, will not cause me to divorce my wife, and will not warp the mind of my child.

Even if you marry and move in next door to me, it will not hurt me in any way.


Hell politicians choose to be politicians and no one bats an eye when THEY marry

Gilda

This isn't unusual. Most people have at some point in their lives experienced some same sex attraction. At times in my past I identified as straight and bi. It took me a while to work things out. The best way to deal with it is accept that whatever attraction you feel for other adults is normal and healthy (so long as no children are involved) and not worry about which label to use. I say this, but I'm not so good at it myself. I seem to have a need for the label, to be able to define things in a concrete way, so I do understand to a degree what you're saying here.

I'd be interested to know if this is a clinical diagnosis from a qualified therapist or psychologist, or a self-diagnosis.

We have to distiguish between the common usage of the word homophobia and clinical forms of specific phobia. In common usage, "homophobia" is a general term for prejudice against and/or dislike of homosexuals (with bisexuals and transsexuals almost always included). In other words, bigotry. This, clearly, is wrong.

What you seem to be doing is drawing a parallel to the clinical definition of a specific phobia as a way of defending your homophobia. Specific phobia is an anxiety class disorder. You do at least acknowledge that it's irrational, but your claim that there's nothing wrong with it is not accurate. First, homophobia is not an identified phobia in the DSM IV, nor does it fit well in any of the listed subtypes. All clinical phobias are harmful by definitions, an indication that something is wrong, else they wouldn't be phobias.

These are the relevant criteria:

• Marked and persistent fear that is excessive or unreasonable, cued by the presence or anticipation of a specific object or situation (e.g., flying, heights, animals, receiving an injection, seeing blood).
• Exposure to the phobic stimulus almost invariably provokes an immediate anxiety response, which may take the form of a situationally bound or situationally predisposed Panic Attack. Note: In children, the anxiety may be expressed by crying, tantrums, freezing, or clinging.
• The person recognizes that the fear is excessive or unreasonable. Note: In children, this feature may be absent.
• The phobic situation(s) is avoided or else is endured with intense anxiety or distress.
• The avoidance, anxious anticipation, or distress in the feared situation(s) interferes significantly with the person's normal routine, occupational (or academic) functioning, or social activities or relationships, or there is marked distress about having the phobia.

Notice the bold part, that to be a clinical specific phobia, it must cause serious impairment of some kind. All clinical phobias are anxiety disorders, emphasis on disorder.

There is something wrong with homophobia. Even if we accept that it's a clinical anxiety disorder (which I think is a dubious claim at best), it is an indication that something is wrong. Describing it in clinical terms does not free you from responsibility for dealing with how it affects your attitudes and behaviors.

It's common, both for straight and gay people to not want to date or be intimate with bisexuals. I really can't understand this attitude among homosexuals, who can end up treating bisexuals with the same prejudice as heteros do us.

However, who you do and don't choose to have sex and or a romantic relationship with is entirely your choice to make, and it's really not my or anyone else's place to judge that. Sexual preference is a complex and personal thing that should be up to the individual. I won't have sex with a man, nor with a butch lesbian. They just do nothing for me. I'm more physically attracted to Asians and Latinas than to other ethnic groups.

So long as it involves consenting adults, you're entitled to whatever sexual preference you like. It's a problem only when it interferes with your ability to build a relationship or affects others not involved, say if you object to a friend dating a bisexual.

Let me ask you a question before I head off to work. I'm homosexual, married to another woman. Let's say we were to meet casually, say to discuss a common interest like, for example comic books, or perhaps you were a student in one of my classes. Would being in my presense and interacting with me in a casual, non sexual way, perhaps in a discussion of art or as a student to a teacher, or as a client for whatever is your profession cause a strong, involuntary anxiety in you? Would you be afraid of talking to me or interacting with me in a non-sexual manner? Would this anxiety be so great that it would make you unable to function normally and have a healthy interaction, primarily because I'm homosexual?

Understand, I'm not trying to bait you, and I'm not going to take offense if the answer is yes, I'm just honestly curious as to how your homophobia manifests itself. I have to go to work. I'll check back here later on.

Gilda

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Jozrael

Alrighties, it's a self-diagnosis, not a clinical diagnosis, and many of your points are true.

However, I think you misinterpret how it affects my daily interactions. I enjoy many friendships with gay and bisexual people (no lesbians just for the fact that I do not know any, I have no problem with them, however) - I actually enjoy their company moreso at times because I find them more emotionally expressive, on the whole. This is not to say I neglect my friendships with straight people of both genders.

However, when we're on the subject of sexuality, and they are talking about non-heterosexual exploits, my stomach does a sort of twist, as if it knows something is wrong.

I know NOTHING is. But my gut just keeps on sending up flags.

I ignore these because I know that I am homophobic - not NEARLY to the extent you described, nor do I let it affect my social interactions in the slightest. The worst offense I have against the GLBT community is that I occasionally slip up and use the word 'gay' as a negative reference to something. My gf pointed out that I did this and I try extremely hard not to anymore.

I -do- think my homophobia is okay. It's something I cannot change - I have tried many times in the past, and still try today. Why would I want to have a problem with people who are the closest of my friends, heck, why would I want to feel uneasy when my gf talks about some of the things close to her heart? I would love to be able to share completely in them with her, to accept her 100%. I really dislike my homophobia.

But that doesn't mean I consider it wrong. It's a part of me, just like your sexuality is a part of you. I would never think of being prejudical against any member of the GLBT community based on their sexual orientation - it'd be a bit hypocritical, don'tcha think?

Btw, if it isn't already obvious, no to every single one of your questions at the end - I'd be perfectly happy to interact socially with you, even befriend, because you seem like a caring individual. But if the conversation turned to your relationship with your wife, I would feel a tad uneasy, and would just suppress that feeling. I doubt you would know I was uneasy unless I told you.

It's just a part of my life, it fluctuates, too - like this thread has helped me in some way with this. Bah for verbosity, it helps me think. Will write more later.

1010011010

And you draw the identical conclusion about people choosing to be straight/breeder, right?

Can you share with us your experience when you chose to attracted to members of the same/opposite sex?

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Gilda

Goodness, did you think I was criticizing your daily treatment of others? If so, I aploogize for whatever I might have said to imply that. I was trying to understand exactly what you meant by homophobia, and defining what that means. You made a comparison to clinical phobias, so I explored what those were for a bit to show the difference.

Well that's not necessarily indicative of homophobia, in either sense that I defined it, or if it is, it's a pretty mild form of it. Nearly everyone has that sort of reaction to some sexual acts. It certainly doesn't indicate prejudice of any sort.

Ok, first, I didn't describe you as homophobic, you did that, and I just reread my post and don't see my doing that there. I discussed what homophobia is, and what clinical phobias are and asked the questions I asked in an attempt to learn a little bit more about your position.

Taking steps not to use "gay" as an epithet is a very positive thing. I applaud you for that.

Here's the thing. You don't have to be comfortable with everything about your friends to be friends with them, to even be a good friend. There's nothing wrong with being a little uncomfortable with sex talk involving sex acts that don't appeal to you.

Yeah. But that doesn't stop people from dividing the world into us vs. them, even withing subcultures that would be better off being a unified front. I know lesbians who reject transwomen as not being real women. I know straight transwomen who oppose gay rights. I've known butch lesbians who consider femmes to be somehow less gay than they. It's irrational and hypocritical, but it happens. Strongly expressed homophobia can be a reaction to repressed homosexual desires.

Please note, I'm not describing you here.

That's good to hear . I don't, by the way, discuss sexual matters regarding my wife Grace in person. Here, sure, that's part of why I come here, to talk about sexuality. In an in-person interaction, you'd know I was a lesbian and married to another woman, and that would be it.

To make this absolutely clear, the purpose of those questions was not to be accusatory. You had described your homophobia in terms of clinical phobias, and I was trying to determine if that description really fit. It doesn't. If this were a clinical phobia, you would find it difficult merely to be around homosexuals, to be in the presense of them, and would find interaction with them anxiety inducing.

There's really no need to defend what you describe as your homophobia as being ok. It does seem to cause you a little distress, so you might need to work on that, but it doesn't affect how you treat others. I find homophobia morally repugnant, but you aren't homophobic in either sense that I describe above.

The way you treat your friends earns my respect.

Gilda

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Infinite_Loser

It's a choice influenced by many factors, both inward and outward.

Edit: Ok. My original post was rather short and non-informative so I'm going to elaborate. I'm of the belief that the saying "You can't help who you are attracted to" is utter BS. Life is a series of choices, and who you fall in love with is another one of them.

Everyone has gay/straight tendencies and we all make a (sub-)conscious decision as to which feeling we'd rather manifest more so than the other.

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goddess_otu

I'm not so sure that this is one of those things that is black and white. I think some people choose to be gay, and I think others are born that way. There are sometimes even small children that show signs of homosexuality at a really young age, and other times I think it just "happens". I used to know a girl that was straight as a board, until she tried a threesome with her boyfriend and a friend. That day, she just decided that she liked it "the girl way" better, and from that point on persued women.

All that to say: I don't know.

DaElf

The purpose of sex and attraction is procreation, pleasure is secondary. That being said if homosexuals are not making a choice it means they are geneticly retarded. Homosexual monkeys have been recorded in over populated societys. Look at rome for example.

When it comes to religion the people of sodom were banging on the door with a perverted heart and wanted to 'know' the two angels in the ass. I think in Kings or Corinthians it says something about a man should not lay with another man as they would lay with a woman. These things are starting to be disputed by experts saying that the homosexuality of sodom was not the reason it was destroyed. Experts also said that who ever was ruling when the 'a man shall not lay with a man etc' was said said it for health purposes. So homosexuality is ok in the bible according to some.

Maybe it is good for our population control and maybe to some it is not the reason for gods wrath. To me it still feels wrong. To me a man kissing a man or a woman kissing a woman is like watching any person kiss an animal in a way that makes me feel like I'm watching my parents have sex. Which I'm sure I could get used to it but really I don't want to. It may be your choice it may not but I wish people would just keep it private. I don't believe I have ever met a gay person and not known it within the first forty minutes. Becuase of that I will have to vote for choice.

passthru

Conveniently, I had this discussion with some friends quite recently. I don't think there are enough options in the poll so I won't vote. Here are a few things we talked about/reasons why:
First, I saw Maleficient say that nobody would choose to be gay because of the inner turmoil it would cause, not to mention the fact that homosexuality isn't accepted in society in the same way as heterosexuality is. I have heard this before, and mostly agree, but I don't think it's that simple because of how complex life can be. I think it's entirely possible that a person could falsely or mistakenly think they are/aren't gay, and not realize it for a long time (maybe forever). In that case I would say it is a choice, albeit based upon feelings that are false/misrepresented/clouded/etc.
Aside from that scenario I don't think it's a choice, although I also think in some situations some males might use sex with another man as a form of domination. That's only sex though, so would probably be classified as 'homosexual sex' rather than 'homosexuality'.
An interesting thing I heard during this conversation was the opinion that it isn't the same in both sexes. He said (he being a gay male) that it was not a choice for males, he and every other gay male he knew believed they were born gay and then realized they were gay at some point in their lives. Whereas some females decide they would rather be with another woman than a man.

I really have no idea what it might be like for others, and others really have no idea what it might be like for me. But it's definately an interesting thing to discuss.

xepherys

Both? Either?

There are things that turn me on that I can't help. There are things that turn me off that I can't help. There are things that turn me on because I approached them from different avenues.

I'm turned on by pregnant women (often). I've also had two children and was VERY attracted to both moms while they were pregnant. This is something that happened environmentally. This is an example of neither choice nor "no choice".

I'm turned on by redheads. I have NO idea why, but a pale redheaded women with freckles and paleish nipples... wow! This is an example of a "no choice".

I'm turned on by cuteness. Above all things, I find cuteness to be attractive. This occured by being interested in "cute" things. As I grew up, I more or less decided that cuteness was the way to go for my highest level of what I think is attractive. I seem to have chosen this route.

Another way to think about it...

A <male/female> is straight. They love the opposite sex and find them appealing. Then, after many failed relationships, they blame the gender as the root cause. They decide (consciously) to try the other side of the fence. If they end up staying with that course, it's still something they chose.

What about bisexual people who are so sheerly for the openness? Someone who enjoys sharing their sexuality with men and women (regardless of their own gender) simply so they can experience anyone and everyone? *shrug*

I don't think it's genetic. Or maybe it is sometimes, but not all times. I think sometimes it may be situational or environmental. Sometimes I think it's a specific decision. *shrug*

Eh... this is only partially true. Remember that most creatures, including other mammals, have sex based solely on procreative instinct. Humans are among the few who get additional pleasure from sexuality. Oddly enough, there are more species where the male "enjoys" sex than the female. There are MANY species where neither have any drive other than babies.

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dd3953

what happens if we take sex out of the picture?

sex tends to happen because of one of two things: attraction and love. what if we only look at those two things. because what i have seen and experienced, homosexually is NOT about sex, but LOVE. it deals with the people we are attracted to, that we feel that strong connection with (aka love). homosexually is not about sex, although sex is a product of it.

so take sex out of the picture . . . .


if you really feel this way, i am sure the people around you know that you feel this way, therefore why would they tell you that they are gay? there are still to this day thousands of people still in the closet, that does not make them straight. as far as "keeping it to ourselves" why should we? everything i turn on the tv, radio, or what have you, i see straight sex, why is a problem for you to turn on the tv and see gay sex? but that would be going very off topic for this discussion, so just think about it.

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waltert

since this is a poll, you should have made a "I dont know".

I guess since there are gay animals in the wild (or so i've heard) then its not much of a choice.

dd3953

i wish i would have thought of that, but there doesn't seem to be a way for me to add to the poll

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sadeianlinguist

That's awfully stupid. There's no solid proof it's a choice either.

Two out of three children in my family are bisexual. I know I've had feelings about liking girls since I was six. And it's not like either of my parents approved of homosexuality. I live in a place where it's unacceptable. Why the hell would my brother or I choose it?

Also, my boyfriend... Completely heterosexual. More heterosexual than most men, I'd say. It's not a choice for him.

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gefax

Anecdotally, I know homosexuals who were attracted to the same-gender for as long as they can remember, and I know 'political' homosexuals for which it was a conscious decision.

The dichotomy of 'choice' or 'no choice' has always struck me as a bit polarised, why not 'it depends on the person'?

Gilda

I have to disagree here. It's about both sex and love and for many people it's difficult to impossible to separate the sex act from the emotional component that comes with it. Both parts matter.

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Ustwo

Love is about sex, sex is not about love.

Its the sex drive which is fundamentally different, not who one falls in love with.

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Gilda

This depends on the couple. For those using birth control, the purpose is pleasure, and sometimes for creating or enhancing the emotional connection between the two.

Retarded. Well done. I've been called defective, abnormal, deviant, compared to pedophiles and bestiality, but this is the first time I've been called retarded.

I'll bet I'm the first retarded person in history to get a Ph.D. from UCLA. I'm going to contact them and see if I can get a plaque commemorating my achievement.

Wow. What translation have you been reading? That's worded somewhat differently from my New Revised Standard Translation. By the way, that's not an indictment of homosexuality, it's an indictment of rape and inhospitality.

Leviticus 18:22.

I would be one of those.

The thing with population control is that that's a linked trait, and not a direct result. The biggest stressors on animals are overpopulation and a lack of food, situations that are improved by lowering the population. Thus, it's possible that mammals at some time in the past evolved a control mechanism in which stress hormones produced during gestation will make some of the male offspring homosexual, reducing the population in the next generation. The proximate cause would thus be the stress hormones, not the overpopulation, and anything causing the production of these stress hormones would thus produce the same result. Thus, global population really is no longer relevant. It's the hormone response that matters, and there are many more conditions in modern human life that can produced similar stresses in pregnant mothers so that what probably evolved as a control mechanism for local population density is now a reaction to other stimuli. So we still have a case of B->C, but there are other causes, X, Y, Z, that can lead to C.

In short, homosexuality may have evolved as a population control mechanism, but is now likely a reaction to other things producing the same stress reactions in pregnant females.

So long as they keep it within reasonable limits, I really don't mind seeing a man and woman kiss. I also have no problem with people giving an animal a kiss, or the animal equivilent, licking one's face.

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xepherys

While I don't agree with him, I'm shocked that so many people on the TFP lately (including well educated ones such as yourself) seem to not be able to determine the meaning of relatively simple words and concepts. Retarded, though commonly meant to imply mental defect, is a word with a very real meaning.

It appears to me that the point was that homosexuality implies genetic retardation, where one does not feel the drive to procreate, but rather love and engage in sexual situations purely for self enjoyment rather than propogation of the species.

I bet there are plenty of people with Ph.D.s from UCLA, UC Berkeley and about every other major college and university out there that have some retardation of their basic makeup, be it mentally or physically.

Now, to agree with Gilda (something I don't do terribly often), Within limits, all of those options are acceptable. You certianly aren't forced to watch your parents have sex (hopefully) and you aren't forced to watch me and my wife kiss any more or less than watching to men or two women kiss, or watching someone kiss a dog (which I'm really unsure why that would make you feel so uncomfortable).

Did you write your own biblical translation or something? I'm pretty sure the King James Bible also doesn't quite put it in that light.

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Gilda

Sure. The "very real" meaning of the adjective form "retarded" is "characterized by mental retardation".

It's also used as a slang pejorative for "stupid," "perverted," or "something of which I disapprove for any reason".

There are different causes for mental retardation, among them genetic, chiefly among mothers over the age of 40. Given the hostile tone and message of that post, I rather doubt that "geneticly retarded" was meant as anything other than an insult, a way of saying that homosexuals are mentally defective due to genetic factors, along with a strong implication that the slang pejorative form was also intended.

When there are neutral and insulting ways to say the same thing, and the method chosen is the most insulting one, I tend not to give the speaker/writer much benefit of the doubt.

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radioguy

to me, it's a choice...i have chosen to like girls. it's that simple to me. if you want to like someone of the same sex, so be it...who cares...it's your choice. i've never heard someone say that they hate the fact that they like someone of the same sex, therefore, to me it's a choice. if you are gay/bi, you choose to be.

xepherys

Try quoting your source. A standard English dictionary will prefer the first option here. The word retarded, as to mean someone of low intelligence is considered colloquial and was only found to be in use in that manner in the early 20th century. The word retarded has uses in multiple scientific, medical and psychological situations, and being "genetically retarded" reads much more logically using the first meaning than saying your genes are stupid. *boggle* Fine, be offended, but as I've pointed out to you in previous threads, you always seem to be offended by the words people choose to use in relation to homosexuality. Again, homosexuality IS a retardation of human nature, using the first meaning, in so much as a human should still have the instictual drive to procreate and further the race, which homosexuality prevents. I agree with that statement. I do not believe that homosexualaity is wrong, or that people who engage in same-sex activities have mental deficiencies. *sigh*

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hannukah harry

when did you make that choice? why'd you choose to be attracted to women? did you make a list comparing and contrasting the pro's and con's of liking men and women? how'd you come to your decision?

if you want to hear someone talk about how they hate the fact they like people of the same sex, just go to any of the "christian conversion" conventions and groups (not sure what they're really called, but it's where the evangelical/fundamentalists try to turn gays into non-gays). the people that go to those things do so because they hate being gay.

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Gilda

Dictionary.com.

First listed definition:

Third:

Fourth

Fifth

And from your own source:

No. See my first cite above--it dates back to the early 1800's and is the only meaning cited for five of the six dictionaries listed. The American Heritage does list a derived meaning that is different.

"Retard" when used as a verb means to slow or stop. "Retarded" used as an adjective has the specific meaning of "mental handicap", has had this meaning for a couple of centuries, has been used that way in psychology and eduction for decades, and by misapplication gained the slang meaning "stupid," and more recently "not cool."

That's not how I read it. I read it as meaning "being retarded as a result of genetic defect."

Not always. Only when offensive words are chosen, those that imply moral or character judgment. It's a very common tactic to use weasel words when discussing this subject, words that have multiple possible meanings, such as abnormal, deviant, perverted, and now retarded. These words do have literal meanings that in the right context may be conotatively neutral, but are almost never used in this way. It's a clever and often effective tactic, using a word that's almost always used pejoratively in general usage while having a denotative meaning that is literally true. It allows for a defense of the usage on a literal basis if challenged, while also leaving the negative connotations.

It's very similar to saying that calling someone a man who once fathered a child is a "motherfucker" or a gay man a "cocksucker." Even if those things are literally true, the pejorative connotations that come with them carry as much weight as the literal meaning.

In the context of that post, given the obvious feelings towards homosexuality shown there, I doubt that the specific scientific meaning that you cite is the only one intended.

Yes, I'm sensitive about the language used to describe my orientation, especially those words routinely used as pejoratives. I don't like being called offensive names. I'm funny that way.

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Xera

I dont know that you can say being gay/lesbian is a choice or not in a blanket statement. I know for me there was a choice to make. It was very specific for me, but I've always been a little unusual in all aspects of sexuality.

I don't think men are sexy. I think women's bodies are just prettier. For that reason I thought for a while that I might be a lesbian. But the fact is that after participating in sexual acts with men and with women, I have more pleasure with men. I just felt like, with women, there was something missing. No pun intended. So I guess I'm heterosexual, but still think that women are prettier to look at.

I think that sexuality is probably more like freckles. Yeah there has to be a predisposition there in the first place, but if you always stay out of the sun, take good care of your skin, and use massive amounts of sunscreen then you're freckles won't be as noticable. So yeah there is probably, not definiatvely, but probably something biological in there, but that would just be tendency until the other factors are introduced to build on that potential.

radioguy

i made that choice when i started to become sexually aroused by women, not men. knowing that there are men out there i could like if i wanted too, makes me think that it's a choice. i chose not to be attracted to men.

i've never been to a "christian conversion" convention or even heard of those, so i have no idea what goes on there or who says what at those places about being gay.

hannukah harry

it doesn't sound like you made a choice at all. you noticed that you were sexually aroused by women. and you "chose" to follow your biological impulse. that's not a choice. that's like saying "well, i felt like my body needed oxygen, but it was a choice to breathe."

unfortuantly, i cant' remember what the "degayification" places/seminars/counseling are actually called, hopefully someone else can help out with that. from what i've read about them though, you have gay christians going to them hoping that they can be "cured" of their affliction. and it ends up just being psychologically tramatizing.

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Sticky

Google search on - hate myslef gay
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ate+myself+gay

Do you choose to get aroused or does arousal just happen?
I think it just happens, but...
if you did choose to get aroused why did you choose to get aroused by women?
Why did you not choose to get aroused by men?

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Sticky The Stickman

Nazggul

Those that say it is a choice only need to look to themselves and ask, when did I choose to be hetero? Answering honestly you have to say that you didn't. You acted on your own personal urges. Why would you default to thinking that it would be different for someone who is homosextual? Because they are different than you it must be a choice? Did you choose to have blue eyes or brown eyes? Brown hair or Blonde hair? Did you choose to be bald? Maybe more relevant, did you choose to be outgoing, shy, caring, domineering? No, these are traits you are born into and they make up who you are.

Imagine how difficult it would be for you to choose to act against your sexual urges. How can you imagine that others could do that on a regular basis. I can't.

I've actually had lengthy conversations with my brother about this very topic. Early on he claims he would have done anything to not be gay, to not be a social outcast that he felt like. How can that be deemed as a choice to be gay when inside he is tearing himself apart tyring to reconcile why he is different than everyone else? Now, later in life, he is far more comfortable with himself as is...which I think is great.

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Halx

I'm gonna quote this dude 'cause it pretty much sums up what I feel about many issues.

In short.. does it matter?

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hrandani

Well perhaps you're a lot higher on the Kinsey scale than I am. I know I can't help being sexually aroused by women. I never have been able to. I wish I could help it. I wish I could stop thinking about it. It's horribly destructive to my day to day life, and I struggle with it. I think that attraction is chemically wired, so while I'd like to just say bullshit, I realize that my experiences do not dictate others, so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

-20 year old college male in a long distance relationship.

DaElf

I wasn't trying to sneak anything in by using the word retarded. Gilda's response to that post of mine is like that classic angry black man scenerio. Where the said angry black man exagerates and twists your words to make you racist in his head and prove to himself that your racial bigotry exists.

Maybe gilda is trying to prove to her self that being lesbian is ok by lashing outwardly? I don't know but my post hardly deserved such angry attention.

I was saying the purpose to have sex is procreation. If you don't have sex to procreate and it's not a choice than there is a cross wire some where in your genetic code. Be offended if you want. My post wasn't meant to be offensive. I just didn't know any other way to say it at the time. It also seems likely that I'm not the first to accidently offend gilda in this way so I don't feel so bad.

I thought the response to my post was childish though. I'M OFFENDED. Some one give me a hug.

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Gilda

Does that appear to be an angry response? You're either badly misreading my tone or I did a poor job communicating it there. That wasn't anger, that was amusement. I thought that was funny and picked it up and ran with it.

However, you might want to consider that using certain loaded words with offensive connotations may interfere with clearly communicating your message.

Nah, I know that there's nothing wrong with being homosexual.

I see a lot of neutral tone there and some amused self-mockery in response to your use of the word "retarded".

You should be aware that if you post your opinion, those who disagree may post responses.

Not all the time. When I have sex with my wife, that surely isn't the purpose. The cool thing about being human rather than a purely instinctive animal is that we get to choose our purpose. The purpose of homosexual sex is pleasure, emotional connection, spiritual connection, a demonstration of love, any of those non-procreative purposes that heterosexuals have.

In male homosexuals, there may be a genetic component, and there is almost certainly a component involving gestational hormones. In female homosexuals, we really don't have enough evidence to say on a broad scale, just a lot of anectdotal evidence.

However, when you say that this is "retarded" or that there is a "cross wire", you imply that there is something wrong with homosexuality, when this is not the case.

Again, that wasn't an angry response. I dislike the word used there, and mocked its usage. Read the whole response and see if you find anger there. There isn't any.

I'd oblige, but I don't want to make you feel like you do when you see your parents kiss. Maybe there are some heterosexual women in the thread who can oblige you .

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dd3953

yeah, see i don't agree with that. but sex has not been really high on my list. the woman i desire to date, be with, are almost never the same woman that i look at and think "oh, i could have sex with her" . . . . you know?

who we are attached to are those we would fall in love with, and who we would have sex with. there are woman who have sex with woman, but don't love them, do that mean they are les? i don't think so.

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naef014050

don't mind me... it's my head up my ass that causes it

Sharon

I've found I can't even make choices about who I am attracted to. Sometimes I'll have urges for men who logically should be repulsive to me (generally when I'm attracted to a woman though, it makes sense, she's usually hawt! )

Most men and women seem to be genetically hardwired to at least prefer humans of the opposite sex. I'm going to go with no choice here about natural preference. Social pressure may influence someone to deny preferences, which is where the element of choice may come into play.

yotta

I think it's more biological and enviormental. I also think that it's a spectrum. I think very few people are purely hetrosexual or purely homosexual. There are a lot of places to be in-between, and I think prefrences can change over time.

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dd3953

i don't get it. maybe i am just slow to understand this. but how can one (the sex drive) be different and not the other (who one falls in love with)?

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