raeanna74

We've got plenty of threads on ways to discipline, true, but I am looking for more specific ways to counter whining and perhaps how to head it off.

Lately our 5 yr old has hit a terrible whining streak. I realize her environment has been a little upset with several things happening at once. She recently started homeschool (which amazingly enough it going well), and I had surgery last week so I've been less tolerant of bad behavior with her.

To give you an example of her whining, here is how her morning started out. She woke up, climbed into bed beside me and in a half crying tone said "I don't want to be in bed anymore Moma, it's time to get up." I told her it was fine to get up and that I would too. So we both get out of bed and she picked up the cat and walks to the stairs. Our second floor stairs are terribly steep so I said "Don't carry the cat down the stairs, put her down." My daughters response was to walk right up the to stairs and put one foot on the first step. I repeated by instructions and added that the stairs were to steep for her to carry the cat down. She put the cat down but said "I coulda done it. I'm good on the stairs." She used her high pitched whiny tone to say that as well. Finally we get downstairs and she reaches for some chips. I told her to wait and that I would take her to get some breakfast at Hardees. She responded with a smile and said "Oh goody" But followed it with a whiny tone saying "But I'm hungry." I told her we would go as soon as she was dressed. She promptly went to get some clothes and one of her drawers stuck when she tried to push it back in. She literally screamed like she was hurt. When I discovered the problem she let out a long string of whining and crying saying that she couldn't get the drawer back in, etc. This behavior continued all morning. She couldn't find the pants she wanted to wear, She didn't want to put her socks on, couldn't put them on, didn't want to pick her sock up off the floor, didn't want to put on her seat buckle, didn't want to go through drivethrough, wanted a soda, wanted Dad's hashbrowns AND hers (didn't even eat all of hers), and on and on.
We did not give in to everything. IN fact gave in to nearly nothing and only gave her things when she corrected HOW she had asked for things. She was grounded for the morning until her room was clean and so long as there was no further whining. Unfortunately there was further whining and it took her about 2 hours to pick up 5 barbies and their clothes. I realize this can be typical behavior of a child this age especially when they are tired. The sad part is that she slept well last night and long, and knows how to behave BETTER. She has behaved better. But lately there has been NO polite words out of her mouth. Everything that she has said today has been in a whining tone.

Grounding or spanking have little to no effect on her in this respect (spanking is not effective in any way because she has such a high pain tolerance). I am looking for some way to pre-empt the behavior. I don't think I am asking too much for her to ask for things politely. I am fairly consistant about it as well. She doesn't get a drink, or anything without a "please" included in the request. I do give her an opportunity to change her request if she asks in a negative way. I have considered completely ignoring her requests if she asks rudely but yet I want to reinforce the way to politely request things too.

Also - please tell me this is a phase. I just want to believe that it will pass soon with consistant effort on my part to change it.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

maleficent

My niece is around the same age and has the same god awful habit - -I think my sister gives into her - just to shut her up because that voice is so annoying... when she's with me, I will ignore her until she asks for something properly and doesnt give that high pitched whiney nasaly voice...

Politeness is something that kids are taught, I don't think it comes naturally for anyone... especially in kids. Please and thank you are very important for them to learn, and I think it's acceptable to not give them something until they use the 'magic' word... they will get it eventually..

__________________

DEI37

That's definitely what we're trying to do, Mal. It's tough sometimes, but usually, I end up being able to say no enough that she gets the idea...for a little while. It's a tough battle...most assuredly mostly uphill.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

raveneye

My daughter is 5 too, and oddly enough, pretty much the same thing happened to us this morning.

My mom says it's a phase, she called it "early puberty" -- at 5 they're no longer a toddler, and they see that they're at the threshold to being very independent and capable "big girl" so there's a certain amount of rebellion and whining.

This morning she was pissed that I gave her a smaller glass of smoothie than I gave myself and her mom, so she whined and cried and refused to eat breakfast, so I carried her to her timeout, told her her whining was unacceptable, let her sit there for about 5 minutes, then went in and explained that she was a big girl and we don't cry and whine like that, and that big girls know that mom and dad love them and will give everything they need, etc. That seemed to solve the problem, she stopped the behavior, ate her breakfast, including all her smoothie and all the extra smoothie in the fridge . . . .

I think behavior like this is cruising for a confrontation, as if they are simply testing the limits. The confrontation in our case seems to be needed and seems to be very effective.

DEI37

That's what we're hoping this is. We've been informed that this "limit testing" is normal. I'm sure it is, and it's probably not a bad thing, as it should theoretically allow us to show her just who's in charge. Either way, it's annoying, and takes its toll on us.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Daniel_

Same here.

We have a 5yo daughter, and she tries to justify getting things her own way.

The one technique that seems to work on her is to say "OK, you can have X but only at the expense of Y.

So in your case, I'd let her have chips, but on the understanding that I wa going out for breakfast, and she could sit and watch me eat and have nothing.

The key thing is to make understandable and believable threats, and then carry them out to the letter.

If we tell her that she'll be in her room unless she does something, she gets sent to her room for the specified time.

It's a bastard to know you are the cause of her distress, but it's good to know that she's not (touch wood) going to be one of those bratty spoiled kids I hate.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Mr Honest

Come on don't you remember how horrible you were as a kid at times?
I feel sorry for you as well as I'm marrying and children will probably follow.
But also see that by teaching them how to behave, to be nice and polite that you will be rewarded by helping to bring up a decent kid and not a sadistic bully.
It's hard work and then some I see from what you've said. If you wanted it easy you should have had a pet hamster instead

__________________
Human beings : who could ever claim to like them all?

shesus

I haven't given birth to a child, but I have spent a lot of time around 5 year olds being a teacher. When a child whines or throws a tantrum, I walk away and let them see what activity they are missing. I don't let them participate and this begins to teach them cause and effect. I tell them why they don't get to participate and after a few times, they get it. What I would have done in you situation is tell her that she wasn't going to get to go to Hardee's or get anything from there. I would have given her something else to eat and let her throw her tantrum, whining what-not. If this happens in a store leave the store with her. JJ did this with his daughter at that age and it worked for him.
I have found that whining/tantrums are done for 2 main reasons: attention or trying to get one's way. Deny those 2 things and she will see that whining is not a valid option.

Good luck, you need it!

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

Lebell

Our nine yr old is having some problems in this area as well, especially when it comes to dinner time.

"I don't like that!"
"It's too spicy!"
"It leaves a bad taste in my mouth!"

The only real solution is to make a consequence of the whining that they REALLY don't like and then weather the storm once or twice. (Or five or ten times.)

The other nite she did it and we said, "Fine, no problem. Don't eat it."

Now this ALWAYS means that while it may not be a problem for mommy and daddy, it will DEFINITELY be a problem for her, and she knows it.

So the question was then, "Will I be able to have desert later?" To which the answer was, "no, of course not." THEN she proceded to whine while picking at her food. Now I am really getting irritated and since she has been warned what the consequences were for whining in this situation, I said, "Fine, go play. You don't have to eat it" and I took her plate and threw away all the food down the garbage disposal, to her dismay. She then whined at Sexymama that she was sooooo hungy until she was told she could have the toast she left and the cold eggs in the refrigerator. With some more "poor me" sniffles afterwards, she was then told to go to her room and get ready for bed (about an hour earlier than normal).

She was VERY mad at is that night but the next night, when she said the hotdog was "spicy", she didn't say anything else and she ate it.

Win the early battles and you win the latter ones too.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

raeanna74

Yeah I have seen how holding fast on the battles helps.

These aren't full on tantrums. I think she's learned for the time being that those don't work.

This is just a habit of asking in a whining tone. I say habit but it's not something we've EVER allowed. She just constantly complains about everything. I correct her and she'll go on fine about that subject. But then it's something else less than 2 minutes later. Like with her socks this morning. - our narrative went this way.

"I can't get my socks on."
Yes you can.
(drops one sock)
"I can't reach my sock."
Sure you can get down and get it.
"I can't get them on."
Keep trying, you're doing well.
(she finally gets the socks on and I help her with her shoes)
"I'm hungry"
We're going to Hardees to bring some breakfast home for Daddy and us."
"I want to go inside."
We can.
(we walk out to the car)
"I want to sit up front with you."
You know you can't. Sit in the back and I'll let you choose the music. Buckle up hon.
"I did." (she hadn't)
I'm sorry hon but we're not going anywhere until you buckle up.
"Do I haveta?!" (I give her the look and she buckles.)

I could continue this narrative indefinately. The problem isn't outright tantrums but a constantly dragging her feet and bucking every last thing I do. Nothing is ENOUGH, or it's always asking TOO much of her. She can't, her legs hurt, she's hungry, she has to go potty... ANYTHING to keep her from cooperating at the first. I realize she's attempting to exert her own control over herself at the very least. At the age of 5 she's not capable of being able to make all the decisions. I also want her to be willing and able to do things for herself. I want to give her independance in ways but yet when she pushes me every last tiny step it becomes so frustrating.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Lebell

I know it's always easier to armchair quarterback someone else's parenting, but this is how it would go in our house:


"I can't get my socks on."

I'm sorry. (walk away)

"I can't reach my sock."

I'm sorry. (walk away)

"I can't get them on."

I'm sorry (walk away)

"I'm hungry"

I am too, good thing we're going to Hardy's.

"I want to go inside."

Ok.

"I want to sit up front with you."

No, I'm sorry, but that's not safe. Buckle up hon.

"I did." (she hadn't)

No, you didn't and you are lying. Lying is a bad thing (I would have to think of a consequence here).

"Do I haveta?!"

Yes. And it isn't fun for me to keep asking. Do you think I have fun asking little girls to do things they need to do and have them complain about it? And do you think I will want to take a little girl with me next time that complains?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The first part is not buying into her problems and making them your problem. We use, "I'm sorry" all the time and it works. We also say "yes" alot, but make them responsible. Cell phones for instance. When our 11 year old begged for a cell, I said, "sure". Then she just looked at me and said, "I have to pay for it, right?" She had learned. And when she whined and begged, I pointed out that I hadn't said, "no". It was pretty hard to argue with me after that. Sexymama even gave her the option of paying for it instead of school clothes for a year. She picked the clothes and no more cell phone begging.

The second part is making her see it from your perspective. Do you like it when people whine at you? You can also save what she says for latter. "Momma, when's dinner?" "I wasn't fixing dinner tonight" "Why not??" "Because I don't wanna!" and turn the tables on her. Then point out the connection if it isn't obvious at this point.

Sexymama strongly recommends Jim Fay's Love and Logic series of books and tapes which is where she learned this approach. And after seeing how well her kids behave, I'm a believer.

As to control, it is important even at five to have some control, which is why Jim Fay recommends giving them choices like we gave our eleven year old re the cell phone.

In the case of your five year old, you could say to her, "I understand you don't want to put on your seat belt. I'll tell you what, next time you can choose whether or not you want to come to Hardy's with me. If you don't want to put on your seat belt, you can stay home."

That way you are giving her choices that are actually not choices in the areas you need to control as her mom.

I hope that helps some and good luck

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

sexymama

I think I'll add just a couple of notes to Lebell's comments. First, you (as you know) can not control other people -- only yourself. So, tell your daughter what you are doing and do it. "The car is leaving for Hardy's in 15 minutes." In 15 minutes get in the car and leave (assuming dad's home.) If dad isn't home, walk her out the door. No socks? Her feet won't fall off between the car and the door. She gets cold feet once or twice and she'll be ready.
When she whines, simply respond, "I don't listen to whining" and walk away! Do not respond until she talks politely.

I also like the one liner, "good try." When my daughters were two and four they would beg for things. I would answer, "good try." And leave it at that. One day the four-year-old whines for icecream. I drive by the icecream parlor and the two-year-old says, "good try." The four year old looks at her sister and says, "your not the mother!" I knew then the message is loud and clear! Mom will not be manipulated by whining or begging.

The key to any of the one liners (good try, I'm sorry, no problem) is to say it nicely and not sound sarcastic or mean! You do not want to be the bad guy, just the person not owning the child's problem.


Fyi, the 9 year old mentioned in Lebell's story did not whine at me about being hungry. We had a resonable conversation (Lebell was gone by then.) and she chose to eat the eggs and toast (which was what was served for dinner) rather than go hungry. However, when it came to dessert she had the choice of fruits only, no sweets. Never give in to whining or they'll whine even more! This solution worked because we didn't give in to the whining.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Daniel_

You're bugging my house, aren't you?

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Catdaddy33

We have an 11 yr old and she reverts to the whiny stage on occasion, usually when something doesn't go her way, as she grows up she finds new ways to try and get her way. We usually ignore it and after she realizes that its not gonna work she gives up. We've fought this since she was 5, and our biggest enemy was her grandparents, they both bought into it and gave in to her demands. So she would try it on us.

Hard to believe these are the same folks that raised me, but that's a completely different thread..

raeanna74

Yeah we've had the discussion about lying, the discussion about seat belts and safety, and breaking the law. I often let her go without socks. This particular morning she didn't want to wear sandals and she wanted the socks on, just wanted me to do it. Everything I said was in a neutral tone so that it wasn't like she was controlling me by making me angry. I've also done the - I'm leaving, see ya - method. She can stay here as long as there is an adult here. She has that choice. She chooses to come with me every time unless she's at a friends house. In this case her friends were still sleeping. I also was attempting to keep things quiet because hubby was still sleeping.

Is this just a phase that all kids hit a whiny stage? It's so CONSTANT that I'm weary of it. Tired of fighting it and all.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Catdaddy33

Yeah, its most kids...if mine didn't I'd probably be concerned, or wondering what she's up to...

I've always been amazed that so many other parents encounter the same behavior as we do.. It's like they get together at school, and exchange notes, or there's this secret kids manual on how to piss off your parents...More than likely it's just instinct and normal behavior, "it worked once, I'll keep trying that"...

maleficent

There are some supposedly adult men and women who aren't out of the whining to get what i want stage...

__________________

AVoiceOfReason

I'm in no way associated with the 1-2-3 discipline system by Phelan (working off memory here) but I wish we'd found it when our son was 4 instead of 7. It's been good when we apply it consistently--the problem is that we (my wife and I) don't always follow it as we should. Worth a look, though, if you're not familiar with it.

__________________
AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

raeanna74

Yeah we already count from 1-3 and use time-outs. This system does work as long as we are consistant.

We're not dealing with tantrums here though and my daughter corrects her behavior before I could count to 1 let alone 3. The problem is the frequency of her complaints and whining.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

AVoiceOfReason

Phelan deals with whining, too, I just can't remember as I sit here at work just what the plan of attack is.

__________________
AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

analog

I used to teach 2nd grade (7 & 8 year-olds) religious education for about 5 years. Inevitably, within the first class or two, a kid would whine about having to read from the activity book, etc. That's when they got the talk my mom said she gave to all her students (she taught the same grade as well for a lot longer, plus she had my brother and I- though apparently I wasn't that whiny as a child, I was too quiet and shy).

"Ok everyone, let's close our books a minute. Ok, I want all the boys in the class to raise their hands if they know they're big boys!" and invariably, all of them raise their hand, they want to feel big and empowered. "Ok, now all the girls, raise your hands if you know you're big girls!" and the girls would also enthusiastically raise their hands. "I knew it! I've got a class of big boys and girls! That's great! You guys aren't babies anymore, right?" and of course they'd all shake their heads and say no (quite loudly). "If you have a problem or a question, you know how to use your big boy and big girl voices, don't you? You're not little kids anymore, whining and crying won't get you attention. Grownups like big boys and girls who know how to ask for things nicely, and know that not everything goes the way we want. So how about this- let's all agree to be big boys and girls, and not use little-kid voices when we're upset or want something... and at the end of the class, for the last ten minutes, i'll break out the crayons and we can all draw for being good, how's that?" And all the kids cheered. And that's all it took for the rest of the year's classes. Every time I gave that little talk, in my most pleasant, calm, reassuring voice, the kids would straighten out for me, and I would not once have another instance of a kid whining or crying about anything. It worked wonders.

Once, I had a mom of one of the kids come in after class and give me a huge hug. She thanked me profusely and asked me what I did. I explained what I said to the class, and asked why she was curious. The week before was the week I gave the talk to that class, and apparently the next day her boy corrected himself in mid-whine and said he was "a big boy, and big boys don't whine" and then nicely said he didn't like the food (he's a picky eater). Being that his picky eating habits have always brought out massive whining, she and her husband were literally shocked when he reversed himself and was well-mannered about it. She was so shocked that she simply said it was good for him, and he could learn to like it if he tried it, and he ate the whole thing. Afterwards, he said he still didn't like it, but ate it anyway, still in a pleasant manner. She and her husband were beside themselves. They had no idea what had caused their constant whiny child to suddenly STOP. They asked him about what he said, about being "a big boy" and that they don't whine, and he said he learned it from me. The entire week went by, and the good behavior persisted. He had changed his ways. No more whining, period. Everyone has their moments, but he would quickly reverse himself and even say he was sorry for behaving like a little kid and whining.

She called me a Godsend, thanked me and shook my hand so much I thought it would fall off, and hugged me so much I thought she wanted to squeeze the life out of me. Even though it was one case in so many, and even if it really was the only kid I affected so permanently outside the classroom, I am still happy I was able to help where I could.

Flash-forward to the end of the year, last class. I saw all the parents again (her, specifically) as a good-bye, and she again couldn't keep her hands to herself. Apparently whatever I said stuck in her kid, and he was no longer a whiner, after several more months had passed. One of my proudest moments of teaching... and it was my last year teaching, too.

meembo

Yes, it's a phase. If whining grates on your nerves the same way it grates on mine, then I'm doubly sorry.

Don't threaten -- just do whatever the discipline is, and follow through each time. Threats are just bargaining tools, in the end. You know what your child feels is negative reinforcement -- whatever it is, just stick with it each time, so behavior and consequence are always assumed to be inseparable.

__________________
less I say, smarter I am

shakran

That's the key right there. From reading this thread I'm seeing inconsistancy in your (plural) reactions to the kid. For example, DEI37 said:

It can't be usually. Ever. It MUST be always or it won't work. Psychological studies have shown that people tend to respond to inconsistant stimulus more stubbornly than they do to consistant stimulus. For instance, if every time the kid pressed a button, she got a treat, studies show she'd press it until she was full and then stop until she was hungry again. If every time she pressed the button she got an electric shock, she'd quit pressing the button in pretty short order. BUT if sometimes she got a treat and sometimes she got a shock, she'd press it constantly. Incidentally slot machines are designed around this bit of trivia - - - those loud bells and whistles that go off when they pay out are to introduce the inconsistant element so people keep pumping their quarters in.

So to apply that to your situation, you must have the same reaction every time and it must be a reaction that involves consequences that the kid doesn't like.

For example, the kid whines at you that she wants you to get up. Your response was to get up. You have now taught the kid that whining, at least sometimes, gets desired results.

And in the sock conversation. . . Kids love fast food. She whines all morning, and then gets fast food. How is that teaching her not to whine?

You need to establish consequences for her actions and then never deviate from those consequences. Whining = ignored kid. Every single time. Eventually she'll get the idea that whining doesn't accomplish anything and she'll seek out a behavior that does.

And it's gonna take a good long time for this to work - - after all you've been teaching her all this time that whining is a good way to get results. It will take time to unlearn that concept.

raeanna74

I understand your point that consistency is important. I would love to have you show me a parent who is 100% consistant though. and we have not been teaching her "all this time that whining is a good way to get results." I did not put her sock on for her. I did not allow her to NOT wear her seat belt. I did not even pick UP her sock for her. As for not allowing her fast food. I have done that for this kid as well. It punished her parents about 100% more than she ever felt any regret for it. She got cereal (not even the junky kind kids love) instead of the breakfast food and so did her parents. She enjoys the process of going to GET the fast food 10 x's more than actually eating it. She rarely eats much of it. So taking her to get the food for Mom and Dad only would cause caused her some regret but such a minor amount that it would have been inconsequential. Not taking her at all would put her in a place of power because she was able to stop Mom and Dad from getting it for breakfast. SO - then what?

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

DEI37

Yeah, you're right, there. I kind of mistyped there. The usually refers, not to her NOT getting her way, rather, it refers to me being able to stay relatively calm, IN SPITE of her "rebelling." She rarely, if ever, really gets her way, ultimately, I think. There's always a punishment of some sort.

I know I'm not a great parent...probably had kiddo a bit too early. Glad she's here, and when she's in a decent mood, she's just an absolute joy to be around. I don't like kids that much, but my own is a jewel. I just want her to behave!

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

shakran

Yeah, I know that, but her goal is not to get you to pick up the sock or put it on or any of those other things. Her goal is to get attention. And you're giving it to her by catering to her whining. Look at the difference between your actual conversation and the one Lebell posted. The same end result happens in both situations - namely, the kid puts the damn sock on and gets out the door - but in Lebell's version, the kid doesn't get catered to by getting constant attention from you as a direct result of the whining. You responded each and every time she whined, and since her goal is to get you to respond, you're playing right into her hands and teaching her that whining is a great way to get her desired result.

And no one's saying that either one of you is a bad parent. Good parents get sucked into the whine trap all the time because one of the hardest things to do is to walk away and ignore the kid when she's being a twit like that. We tend to want to explain ourselves, almost as we would to another adult -- - "well I know you don't like it but it has to be that way because. . . . "

My parents tried that all the time with me and all it ended up getting them was a kid that was very good at finding loopholes. Had they instead simply removed the stimulus that was encouraging my being a jackass, I'd have figured out that being a jackass wasn't the way to go if I wanted to get what I want.

Now, there's a flip side to this - you have to ignore her when she's being whiny, but when she's behaving properly you have to give her the attention that is her goal. Then she'll not only start supressing the behavior that doesn't get her results, but will begin to internalize the behavior that gets her the results.

amonkie

When I'm working with younger kids, because I am deaf I have a significantly harder time understanding them when their voice goes into whiny pitch. The first time happens, I will stop and explain to them that I can't hear them when they use that voice, and pull out my hearing aid to show proof. The next time they do, they are ignored by me, until they choose to return their voice to the normal range. I don't seem to have as much of a problem with this because I honestly cannot make out their demands, and if they can't get what they want, they will stop.

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

raeanna74

That is good. Yesterday I did the same sort of thing. I said "I cannot listen when you are talking in a whiny voice." and turned my back. They immediately change their tone and added a 'please'.

Sometimes it works like a Jem - other times she's as stubborn as a mule.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Derwood

To respond to a few random things here:

- It's NEVER too early to teach manners. My daughter is 2 1/2 and she has had to say "please" and "thank you" ever since she could talk. Parents who wait until kids are 5 or 6 to teach this will find themselves in a deep hole. Same goes with table manners, screaming, etc.

- Simply not responding to whining, while taking a great deal of patience, works. The only time we don't really push it with my daughter is if she's really tired. At that point, you just get her in a quiet place and let her relax. Discipline isn't going to sink in when she's in that state.

- It helps to have the grandparents on the same page as you. When we're over at my folks' house, my daughter can get a "no" from my wife and I, and when she naturally turns to try my parents, they tell her the same thing. Make sure no one is enabling the bad behavior. If they are, you have to have a talk with them, no matter how contentious that may turn out.

- When your kid DOES say things politely and behaves without being asked, be sure to positively reinforce that, especially if it's shortly after you've had a confrontation. "Thank you so much for asking nicely!"

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

Gilda

You wouldn't believe the whining that went on here when I got home from work today. It was pathetic, begging, whining, temper tantrums, refusing to do chores or go to time out, more whining, refusing to compromise or cooperate, or be in any way a civilized human being. Finally, Grace just got fed up with it and said, "Gilda, we are not going to see Batman Begins again. Eight times is enough."

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

josie

I think that sometimes kids don't even hear themselves whine because it has become such a habit for them that they don't even realize they're doing it- kind of like how I don't even realize I am drumming my fingers on the table when I'm bored until someone points it out to me. My son used to whine quite a lot - and I would repeat it back to him - in the exact same voice he gave me - "But why can't I have some candy? I'd whine back at him - and he would look at me -just amazed and then we'd both start laughing. And then I'd say - "That's how you sound. Do you think that listening to that voice, I'm at all in the mood to give you some candy?" Being a smart kid, he'd get my point. And I told him, everytime you ask me for anything in a whining tone - my answer will be no - without question or argument. So you better start thinking about the tone of voice you use to ask for things." And it worked - he'd start out whining about something, and it was absolutely hysterical to hear him suddenly stop in the middle of his sentence and lower his voice about an octave to finish it. It is a phase - especially if you teach your daughter it won't work to get what she wants from you and it sounds like you're doing that. She'll catch on- so don't despair...

simivin

Well, I haven't had kids yet, but I have gotten a degree in behavioral science, so I thought I'd point out a few things that I don't think were covered in other posts.

First, with respect to consequences -- consequences are good, but reinforcements for good behavior generally produce better results over time.

Second, with respect to manners and politeness: I think it's a great thing and important to teach, especially when young. But I think most people have forgotten how important it is to set a good example. Observational learning can play a huge part in growing up...but how many parents are in as good a habit or make a conscious effort? If it's that important, make sure to be doing it too.

Finally, I think the habit of not rewarding poor performance (even giving attention when they're throwing a tantrum sometimes) is a good thing, because otherwise they get what they want.

Well, those are just a few quick points. Hopefully those comments are worth some beans, even if I don't have kids yet...

Sim

dman2

It looks like reanna74 has it under control to me. I don't know that I would be so understanding in all situations. I am less tolerant of the whining. I have a 3 year old and whining is not an option. Of course if he is not feeling well or sick, that it different. Whining to get his way, not going to work.
I applaud reanna for consistency. That is what works. If you're not consistent, your kids will find your weakness and attack it. Keep up the good work.

__________________
I have to exercise in the morning before my brain figures out what I'm doing. ~Marsha Doble

Spanxxx

I liked Analog's story about the 5 yr old sunday school class (or whatever kind of class it was).

I have a 3.5 year old and he's not kicked into the full-time whiny every 5 minutes for something phase yet, but we've been through a few streaks of whining. Mostly, it happens when he is tired. However, on occasions, he just gets on a roll and my wife and I nip it quickly every time.

Similar to Analog's story, my wife and I approach it the same way. In a completely level and calm tone, we explain to him, "You are a big boy, and big boy's don't whine. If you want to ask for something, you need to talk in your 'normal voice'." He now knows what we mean by 'normal' voice and he realizes that we will NOT submit to anything he asks for in a whiny voice. We usually won't even respond. We will just look at him and wait until he corrects himself. It works quite well for us.

The tantrum/flailing thing has been frustrating too. The problem is that sometimes, the hard-nosed, cold-shouldered method just won't work on my son. He will work himself into such a frenzy that he'll start hyperventilating. My wife or I will frequently have to just calm him down before we can approach any issue that is actually behind what has caused the situation.

Sometimes though, you just have to stand your ground. One night, my son learned that what daddy says goes. I'm not to be underestimated, and I can listen to crying all night and will NOT give in. Every night for bedtime we have the exact same ritual. We've had it for at least 2 years now and it was only augmented by the portion that includes going to the bathroom by himself once he was potty trained. It goes like this: go peepee, put on pajamas, brush teeth, read 1 book, read 1 bible story, kiss and hug everyone good night, go to bed, say a prayer, sing a song, stay in bed (though this last part we still work on occasionally).

Well, my folks happened to be in unfortunately to witness this episodic meltdown, but alas, sometimes you can't pick your parenting moments. It was time for bed, and I told my son it was time for bed and told him to go pee so we could go put pajamas on. He told me flatly, "I don't have to pee." I explained, "You know the routine. We do this every night. We always go peepee before bed so we make sure not to wet the bed. Sometimes you have to pee a little bit and you just don't know it". So, we went into the bathroom with my basically escorting him forcefully in there. Once in there, he went over to the toilet and then turned around and said, "I don't have to peepee. I'm not going to peepee." I tell him that, "you will try to peepee. we always try. if you don't actually have to pee, that's fine. but you WILL try." So, eventually he starts crying and yelling that he doesn't have to pee and he isn't going to pee. Then, he just melts down. falls on the floor. starts pushing at me to get out of the room. I close and lock the door, stand against the doorknob, and amazingly enough, he can't move me however much he tries to shove me out of the way. I just stay quiet and let him have his tantrum. Every few minutes I try to calm him just by saying his name flatly, "Conner"....."Conner"......"Conner". Eventually, he'll stop crying to respond, and I'll ask, "Are you going to go peepee now?". Then, he'd meltdown again. I explained that we will NOT leave this bathroom until he at least tries to go peepee. Well, eventually I say, "Alright, why don't you go ahead and take your clothes off so we can put on your pull-up and pajamas." He does this, then I say, "Okay, you already have your clothes off, why don't you at least try to go peepee." He says no and stands there. I just stay quiet and keep leaning against the door. Eventually he just stops crying and whining and walks over to the toilet and as SOON as he gets within range, he lets out a forceful stream of pee and then he sort of glances at me out the sides of his eyes and this look of astonishment comes over his face and I say, "I guess you did have to go peepee didn't you?" and he quietly responds through that just getting over being crying choked up voice, "Yes.". After that, we've never had one single issue with him throwing a fit at bedtime again. He's tried, but all I've had to say is, "We always go peepee every night before bed. You know that." and he complies.

The bottom line that night was that I had decided I would not submit, no matter how long it took and eventually my son realized that this was going to be the case and he learned that I mean what I say.

By the way, it took about 20 minutes.

__________________
I think that's what they mean by "nickels a day can feed a child." I thought, "How could food be so cheap over there?" It's not, they just eat nickels. - (supposedly) Peter Nguyen, internet hero

canuckguy

This thread is great, thanks everyone for there stories and idea's. I would be interested in the thoughts and early prevention for my little 18 month old devil.

My little one will listen and follow directions with a smile on her face; happily dancing as she goes.....some days.....other days it’s a struggle to do anything. Whether it be eat dinner, get dressed; change the bum, anything involving daily routine. She has been lately very deviant, we have a set routine that she follows, since I am the stay at home parent at this time I set her on schedule that works for the both of us. This helps with getting ready for dinner, or bed or leaving the house to go shopping. But for example, I have a home theater room in my basement, sometimes I'll take her down there if I need to do some laundry in the next room or whatever. The HT has allot of things that her curious hands what to touch, twist and turn on and off.
She normally understands that there are certain things that she is not to touch, but now she will go straight to it touch it and keep touching it until I come over and remove her hand from it. Normally I could calmly say, please don't touch (insert reason here) and she would stop before she even reached the item.
Now as soon as I start to say it, she will go even farther like she's trying to start up the shuttle, flicking every switch she can reach. Normally not an issue as the entire house is kid friendly; rarely is she down in this room. When she is tired/hungry/over stimulated she can get this way which is fine, but lately it has been more and more during times when she should be okay. My instincts tell me it’s just her testing her limits (and mine).

And to top it off she stated to get very clingy to mommy. My wife works a varied shift, and it’s never been an issue in the past, but now my daughter will be in constant "mommy mommy..." mode when she gets home. Now when my wife is gone to work all day, she will ask where mommy is occasionally no issues, and even when my wife leaves for work she does not fuss after she has left. Only when she is home. Separation anxiety or something. Kind of makes me feel like poo, here I am slaving away all day to make her day special, and I get cast aside like a used Kleenex the minute mom comes home. Odd though since it just started to happen. No biggie all just phases, but does anyone have any discipline advice that would apply to a young child. I tried leg shackles but she just squirms free......

sexymama

brian, your daughter has just entered the seperation anxiety stage. It is funny because babies will be away from mom from an early age on, and still go through this stage. It is not personal. It is just that your daughter now realizes that mommy (and daddy) exist when they are not in sight as well as when they are. She'll get past it. A few things to help is for mom (and you) to always say goodbye when leaving and hello when returning. Sometimes it seems easier to sneak out of the house -- but that is bad for the child. Also, when saying goodbye, keep it upbeat. "Mommy is leaving for work now. I'll be home in a few hours. Have fun with daddy!" When she gets home, "Mommy is home from work." Pretty soon your daughter will see the pattern and feel more secure.

As for ways to discipline at this age, I suggest the two yeses for every no technique. "Sweetheart, you may not hit the cat. You may pet the cat or look at the cat." "We do not bite people. You may bite a rag or a carrot." The other technique that works well is simple distraction (otherwise known as redirecting.) Rather than focusing on what your daughter may not do, engage her in what she can do. Also, you may consider (if you haven't already) getting down at your daughter's level and looking around. What looks tempting and/or interesting. Remember, she is just learning about the world, so if it is at eye level, it is tempting. Move what you need to and make everything possible safe and accessible.

FYI - she is in the "little scientist" phase. So, she is not trying to be naughty by touching your things. She is just curious to see if every time she "flips the switch, the light comes on." By allowing her to explore, you are teaching her it is okay to learn and be curious. This stage can be a lot of fun -- enjoy!

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

raeanna74

I will second sexymama's evaluation that this is the separation anxiety stage. I have seen it with children who are not even my own. One child I began watching at the age of 2 weeks old. About 9mo and again at about 1 1/2 years she hit this stage. Even though I'm not Mom she does spend a lot of time with me and when she hit this she was as upset about my leaving as her Mom leaving. I could not walk more than 2 feet away from her without her flipping out. Mom had the same dilemma at home. I went to her sister's b-day party and even though Mom was holding her when I left she still had a fit. She could not stage the more important entities in her life going away from her.

I heard one person say it like this. They realize that you and they are separate entities and that when they can't see you that you might not be there. Prior to this it seems that they don't miss you because they don't think of themselves as separate from you. This may be reading a lot into it but it sortof makes some sense. It will get better with the habits that sexymoma suggested. My daughter at 4 years old rarely had a problem with us leaving to go anywhere even though we did not leave her with a sitter often and I worked from home. She simply had learned that we would return. Every now and then she tests the waters and has some anxiety but it's not constant.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

canuckguy

Well that anxiety phase passed pretty quickly, she does not bat an eye when mommy leaves or comes home which really helps.
Today I went to put our little one down for a nap, had a normal routine day to this point. And like another routine, just like when you get up in the morning, before the nap, after dinner and again before bed we brush our teeth. Now today she was not appearing anymore tired than normal, no fussing or crying. We go up stairs to brush our teeth and have a bottle/nap and all hell breaks loose.

I put her to bed for her nap the same time everyday, and alot of times she'll come up to me and tell me she is sleepy before we even go up. Anyway so today we go upstairs to brush and she refuses. I usually let her start off brushing her teeth then I take over to get all the places she's missed. She was having none of it. She started to cry once we entered the bathroom and was asking for her bottle. I told her that she could have the bottle once we brush our teeth (i also brush to show a good example), but she was very upset. The funny part when I repeated the phrase "we need to brush our teeth and then we can have a bottle" she grab the toothbrush and put in her mouth for .1 seconds and threw it on the floor and asked for her bottle again. Now at this point, should I just drop the subject and give her the bottle or continue on the path?

For the record, I did ask her again to brush her teeth, which she refused, so I gave her the bottle and put her down for a nap. After she got up from her nap she happily brushed her teeth. Any input into this. Good/bad? She has become alot more independant lately so I just assume it is that.

raeanna74

Would it work to put her down for a nap without the bottle?? Since that's what she was wanting and why she was refusing to brush her teeth perhaps you could have put her down for a nap without the bottle. How old is she exactly? I didn't see it here before.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

canuckguy

She is 18 months old, and only has a bottle before her afternoon nap and when she goes to bed at night, all other times she has a sippy cup. Since this was only a one time thing (for now i hope) i was more curious if I handled the situation correct. Getting her off the bottle is not my concern at this point, yet. I've alternated a sippy cup in at nap time, and no complaints.