pules

Been with my gf for about 6 years now.

Had lots of "lady" friends in high school.

Have couple of "lady" friends while I’m in my mid 20's

With that said......
Why does a "NO" from a woman mean....."If you ask me enough or work me hard enough, sure?" and a "Yes"......."I didn't agree with what just happened!"

As I'm dealing with more and more women in my adult years, I can't help but wonder . . . "what is she thinking? What’s going through her head now?"

I work in a big company, with at least 10k ppl. I talk to alot of different ppl. I even sometime meet these ppl. I've noticed so many women are flirtatious and go a long with sexual innuendoes. In fact they encourage it.

Society says one thing, but personal life experience says another…..

What's the deal?

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Wha Da?????

Nancy

hahahha yeah.. I've often wondered about that myself. That's one of the few things I don't get when it comes to my own sex. Yes means no and no means yes. It's stupid

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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

Skelington

we keep ourselves confusing just to drive you all crazy!!!!!


okaaaay....i really don't know... heh!

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It is insanity that keeps us sane.

Ay si volvieras a mi
Vida ay si volvieras
Si regresaras por mi
Seria feliz otra vez
Pero hoy te vas
Y no hay vuelta atra

skier

The body is honest whereas the mind lies.

Don't pay attention to the words. Look at how he/she reacts to you. Our "true" society is not the repressed ideals of tradition that media spews out at us. Open your eyes to the people around you and you'll see our real culture.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

lindseylatch

Ok, whew...Get ready for a rant...Not against you, the poster, though, so don't take this personally in any way.

It's society. And I hate to say it, cause it's so fucking cliche, but it's true. Turn on the tv, what do you see? Women who don't really mean "no" when they say it, who are just being coquettish and cute. And those are the girls who get the guys on tv, the ones who tease and draw the men out. The women who actually respect themselves, and say "no" and mean it don't get SHIT.

So, what is the message our little girls are getting? Be cute and sexy, say "no" but mean "yes," and give in to the man when he wants it. Basically, manipulate and fuck your way to the top, cause you can't handle men any other way. And you know what? It sure as hell worked in High School. who were the 'cool kids?" The slutty chicks who where sly and bitchy and coy with their friends and boyfriends. Maybe that's not how it was in your high school, but that's how it was at mine.

And who are the "cool" kids in college? Ohhhh, yes, the frat boys and the sorority girls (at least, that's what they seem to think, and what tv and movies seem to think as well...). And, although the stereotypes may not be dead on, if that's what people think you're like, then that's the kind of people who are going to want to join. So it's a self-fulfilling stereotype.

I get sick when I hear about this shit, and yet I even did it myself! It's so ingrained, that it's like we can't help it. I decided that my boyfriend wasn't being attentive enough, so I decided to try to make him jealous. Not cool...not cool at all. He just ended up getting mad at me. So now if I have some problem with him, I either talk it over, or let it go.

I don't know how to change it, except not to reward the behavior. If a chick says "no," then treat it like a no. Don't fall into her little manipulation trap. If she decides to be all coy and shit, drop her like a hot brick.

If I see a girl being a total bitch to her guy, trying to get him to do something for her without her asking, or trying to "test" him, I tell her she's being a bitch and that he should dump her. Then I'll usually tell him what's going on.

Man, if we could all just respect each other as intellegent, rational people (in this case, women respecting men), instead of animals we have to trick into doing what we want, we'd understand one another a lot better.

That was rambly...sorry...but I think it got most of my point(s) across.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."
-Voltaire

Sage

My best friend *totally* did this all the time. She's a flirt by nature (driven that way by her majorly fucked up mom) and would get ANYTHING she wanted just by smiling and flashing a little bit of boob. It was disgusting. SO many guys at NCSSM thought she was totally into them, when she wasn't. (Martel included, for a little while).

On the one hand, there's women's lib saying "Be respected for your intellect!" and on the other hand, you've got stupid guys who will do anything for you if you show a little leg. Personally, I think you should shake what ya mama gave ya. But manipulation is where I draw the line

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Martel

Well, what else is a sexually repressed 17-year-old to think when some hot chick is rolling around on the couch with you at a party late at night?

But yeah, I wised up when I noticed that she really did this with EVERYONE, then spent the rest of senior year trying to convince my buddies not to waste their time with her.

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Anamnesis

K-Wise

Ladies if you're with me and you say "no" I take it as "No don't" so if you mean "yes" then by all means please say "YES!" or you're not getting anything .

Asta!!

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"I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project

It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

Seeker

Flirting can be fun, but I make sure that everyone (including myself) knows their boundaries. One thing I won't do is lead anyone on.. that is really cruel and nasty.

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To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

K-Wise

^ Now why can't more women be like that? I've been led on too many times

Asta!!

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"I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project

It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

Seeker

My theory is these women just don't know themselves well enough, and are so stuck in themselves that they don't even consider 'the other side'.

I'm not sure if it comes with maturity, but overall a general consideration for 'others' in your interactions makes my dealings easier for myself and others. It also allows for a more intimate relationship to form with any person you associate with. How can you appreciate anyone while you are too busy filling your own needs and playing with them?
Sure, it may be a high for a while but I find that you end up being the perpetual bucket with holes in it. You can never be filled enough.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

K-Wise

^ Oooooh I like that! Good stuff!

Asta!!

__________________
"I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project

It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

lurkette

Fuck no I don't get 'em. Never have, doubt I ever will.

I'm dealing with the "if you want me too much then I don't want you, but if you didn't want me then I'd totally want you" game with my potentially again um-friend D, and the conclusion I have come to is this:

NO GAMES!!!

I was about to start playing the game and pretend I was completely disinterested, and then I thought, NO. NO GAMES!!! If she doesn't want to have a relationship, fine. But if she does, then she can put on her big girl panties and admit it. Give up the control shit and the hard to get shit and the being the center of the universe shit and act like an adult. I am not willing to be a cog in someone's self-esteem machine. And all of a sudden I really DON'T care if she wants to have a relationship or not.

Fuck no I don't get 'em. I don't get myself half the damn time!

As for the "no means yes" crap, that is inexcusable. I don't understand it at all.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Biscuit Buns

I don't dig the games. I've had guys play it with me and I don't have the patience for it. As for me, no means no and yes means yes. Sure, people want to be wanted, but the yes-no-sex-game is stupid and dangerous.

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A hard man is good to find. ~Mae West

Martel

Just from the replies so far in this thread, it seems to me that the whole "women playing mind games" thing bugs the ladies more than the men... at least around here, where I suppose we could say we are probably more "enlightened" than the general populace as far as sex and sexuality goes.

Just an interesting observation.

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Anamnesis

Martian

Martel - I think it bugs the men too, that part just goes without saying.

I'm one of the ones who refuses to play games. If I'm in a relationship I want it based on openness and honesty. If she wants something from me she needs to tell me; I'm not a mind reader and I can't just intuit these things.

That's one thing I like about the girl I'm with now. She doesn't try to be coy about anything - she lets me know what she wants (yeah, begin sexual innuendo here).

raeanna74

I've done this. Most of the time I WANT the guy to do something for me but I hate to sound like a nag and ask for it at all. If I start asking for everything I need then I become demanding. We're hoping you'll catch on without us being "demanding". If we get demanding then we're labled as "high maintance". In a sense, guys have forced us into "hinting" at stuff so that we don't sound like a nag, demanding, or high maintance. There's lots that we'd love for you to do. At least personally I have done lots for my guy and often the guy doesn't even notice. We think it's gonna be noticed and then when it isn't we are disappointed but we don't want to sound like we're bragging by pointing every little thing out cause there's so many little things that we do.

At least that's my point of view. So as for outright saying yes or no when I mean the opposite. Sometimes I will say the opposite when I feel like saying the truth would sound controlling. For example - you want to go out with the guys but I was envisioning an evening watching a movie and getting some nookie. If you ask if I mind that you go out I would say no - BECAUSE if I said Yes then I'd be controlling and you'd stay home grudgingly and no nookie would happen and we wouldn't have a good time anyway. I would want you to WANT to stay home.

Now here's where communicating comes in and that only seems to have come with maturity and experience. Now if Hubby wants to go out and I have envisioned something totally different I might say - well I was hoping to do thus and thus - I want you to have fun tonight so if you still want to go out can you make a day where you can stay home and do this with me?? He's usually quite happy to, he sees WHY I'd not want him to go out and he also sees that I want him to have his freedom and fun too.

I think it's a lot about maturity and communicating ALL that you're thinking.

Then there's the problem about guys listening - hubby has learned the art quite well but was once poor at it too - if you aren't willing to listen then be prepared for opposite answers cause we're not gonna waste our time talking to a brick wall.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

tecoyah

I have found it in the approach we men take, and careful observation of body language/hidden meaning in text. Most women in my limited experience will tell you what they want if you take the time and energy required to "Read" them. It would seem women are far more adept at projecting feelings in subtle ways, the key here is recognizing small, and often unintended signs placed within the interactions.
Yes, on the surface a No often means Yes.....but if care is taken when the No is expressed, the Yes becomes obvious. There is always the chance of misinterpretation by the one reading her....but that is just the way it is. We males also put a bit of ourselves into the message through our own Ego. If we are confident in ourselves, we are more likely to see the Yes in the No....because of human nature and previous experience in what women see in us. That said, there is also the Obvious No....and it needs to be respected above all other statement....for her protection, and to limit the humiliation we place upon ourselves.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Seeker

Awww, thanks K-Wise!

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To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

StanT

Are we married?

This pretty much mirrors my wifes attitude and it drives me nuts. Ask for whatever you want, we hate guessing and our intuition really sucks. It's only nagging when you ask a second, third, or fourth time. It's only demanding when you won't accept "no" as an answer. Don't phrase it as a question if "no" isn't an acceptable answer.

As far as "doing things" for us, if we don't notice, we probably don't care. You are not "doing something for us", if it isn't something we want or care about. You are actually doing it for yourself. That's ok, but we really don't need the implied guilt or debt.

Axiom_e

*waves*
*is new here*
I recently spoke with a girl that shattered all my expectations with the games that women and men play. I took her as just another female and used my words games/ innuendo, but she cut through the bull and made me state what I was really thinking.

She made me realize how useless it is to play games if you are not going to get what you want anyway. You should just come out and be honest to yourself and everone.

If a women does not come out and say what she wants or doesn't makes it ridculously obvious. I am going to ignore the hint even if I get it. No more games for me.

Remember it takes two to play these games. If you refuse to play let the other person know. If they don't take it well, you prolly didn't want to be with them anyway.

*ducks*

Nisses

StanT: thanks, I wanted to say something similar, but couldn't really fit it into words.

the sentence: there's so many little things we do, just doesn't work. If we don't notice them, it's that we really didn't even think about it, or would have done it ourself if we thought it necessary.

On the other hand, if she says no, and you take the effort to read the yes through the body-language, the way Tecoyah says, why not use it yourself?

She goes no, no, but shows all the little signs, then rightaway, treat it as a real no all the way, and see if she doesn't wise up

I've done that a few times and they do catch up to the fact that you apparently can't read their mind afterall (or maybe I was just lucky )


edit: d'oh, axiom_e beat me to it with a similar post

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

tecoyah

Personally....that would take half the fun away, and I would quickly become bored with her. Unless I was serious about a relationship (read love), and that is far too rare to depend on.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Axiom_e

Good point.

You know I guess it does come down to personal preference. I think it is odd that I love games in all formats, but when it comes to relationships I prefer upfrontness. (is that even a word? well If it isn't I guess it is now. )
Besides there are other games that you can play with a partner and exploring each other is still fun. I guess I just don't do well without a goal in mind that I know we are sharing.

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Life is meaningless.
How awesome is that?
Rock On! Now I can do whatever the hell I want
and give my own life meaning to myself.

raeanna74

lol I can see what you are saying. My situation has been that often the guy I've been with will ask something and if he doesn't like my answer will ask again. Then I either have to say "no" again and become demanding or say the opposite of what I want.

As for the "doing things" for you guys - I'm talking about things such as, baking, dusting your electronics, picking up your tools, sweeping your shop, etc. Things that are for the GUY only. Things that take effort and that should be appreciated. There is no intent in guilt or to create a indebtedness. There is only a desire to please and when you don't express any pleasure at having things easier to find, cleaner, or good food on the table then we loose the desire to do ANYTHING you want.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

maleficent

:scratches head:

Games, like monopoly are fun. Head games are just a form of manipulation - that should not be fun.

Why is being honest boring?

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twinkle

I find these little games tiring (I'm a female). I am a nice shoes, wanna fuck type of person --- if I say it, I mean it, and there's no hidden meaning. I don't really flirt. Someone will know if I like them, because I'll pay a lot of attention to them.

I get embarrased for girls whose lives are a huge entanglement of poorly-done manipulation.

I have dated both guys and girls, and girls are a lot more work.

Adonis1782

I've done extensive study into the mind of women. I'm 23 years old and can honestly say.....

I clear my drawing board all the time, start from scratch, and am always guessing. What is my defense? Always keep women guessing too!

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" yer damned if you do and yer damned if you don't "

-Bart Simpson

Axiom_e

I think that problem here males are expecting a generalization of women that can help us relate to everyone of them. That is not possible everyone is different.

I think we should stop seeing it at relating to the oposite gender and just start relating to another individual.

__________________
Life is meaningless.
How awesome is that?
Rock On! Now I can do whatever the hell I want
and give my own life meaning to myself.

Demeter

I can't figure women. Even as a child, I never bonded with them. I have had mostly male friends.
I do have female friends now that I'm older, but at lot of time I think they are being over-emotional or immature, for lack of a better word. I don't think most women realize how strong they can be, acting fragile & silly so much. I just shrug it off. I need a lot humor in my day to handle women.
Most men I encounter I find are just relaxed being who they are. A lot of women seem to role-play.

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I am not bound to please thee with my answers.
William Shakespeare

ariekitten

i think most women just want to please others, so for one they just agree with what someone has to say sometimes to avoid hurting feelings. other times, they may say no when they really mean yes because they are shy or afraid of how the other person will react, or what will happen if they speak their mind. sometimes i find myself feeling that way, but for the most part i don't do the whole "yes is no and no is yes" thing. i find women to be very complex and confusing at times.

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>'.'< kitty kitty, meow ^..^~

pules

wow......

Thank you all for your feed back.

I see most women here are the type that we (the guys) would call "one of the guys" and I'm happy to see that.

StanT - much props for making your comment. You sound really fed up with the situation you're in. Not sure if you've done this already, but do your wife know how you feel? Have you told her, in the exact words you used here, how you feel about what she may do for you?
From my personal experience, the first couple of years, I really had to set some ground work between me and my gf. I've spend so much time telling her, "Hey, I'm not really good with sugar-coding things." And so far it's worked; thus being together for 6 years.

Most have mentioned Communication.

From what I'm reading, how do you communicate with something that lacks, dare I say, rationality?

If women don't get women, and women themselves don't get themselves, how are we going to get the women?

I know how.....guys try this. Ask a simple question. Let them answer. Don't interrupt. Just listen. Let them say their part. Catch on to key words and focus on those key words. Ask more questions about those key words.

I also agree with most posts regarding women feeling they have to act a certain way due to society. But here's what's confusing me. Women ask for equality (which in my opinion is never possible, because men and women are never equal to each other. One will always be better at something that the other is not) but yet they want to be courted at the same time. What's the deal?

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE THE OPPISTE SEX. They are awesome creatures. I just want to get some things worked out. I thing this will make it a lot easier for everyone involved.

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Wha Da?????

maleficent

You are painting one entire gender with a pretty broad stroke, making the lot of us out to be an irrational group.

You're also making a big assumption that the male side is actually comminicating to the female side (or vice versa) is communicating clearly and saying what they want.

You're right in the listening, and asking questions... that is the only way you are sure that what you think are communicating is actually being heard. Communication is a two way street, if a person isn't getting what you are saying, it's not entirely their fault.

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ngdawg

There are women who have this entire persona that emerges only around men-their voices go up high, their eyes widen, they give over-the-shoulder looks, they use words normally reserved for really bad romance novels and they change their walk. UGH!! I've seen it in my sister, my best friend, girls at school....pathetic really. Then, just as the person they're doing this all to gets within their zone, they're pushed away by someone who has taken over that flirtatious persona and replaced it with a territorial female gorilla.
I flirt-a LOT. But I also am upfront about what's going on-it's flirting, interaction, nothing more. Games? Maybe, but the rules should be there for all to read-not made up as you go along.
Most of my friends are male-maybe because they understand the rules better. Maybe because no game-playing is involved. And, most importantly, maybe it's because there's no 'competition' that would force me to go into the high-pitched, hip-swinging phony persona in order to gain attention.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

StanT

Actually, I've been married 25 years and we get along pretty well. She does a reasonably good job of tolerating my (ever so minor ) flaws and I do the same for her. The beating around the bush, indirect manipulation to "avoid" nagging and demanding drives me nuts. She knows it, but we've been known to annoy each other intentionally.

Every individual is different, but women seem to prefer an indirect approach, where men are much more direct. I'm not sure I'd go with irrational, but it is definately an irritating tactic (and yes, it seems like an intentional tactic).

maleficent

I am constantly getting myself into trouble for being direct... If they didn't want to know the answer, why did they ask? I've been working on that be a little less direct approach to people... maybe I should just get a sex change...

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abaya

You know what, Raeanna? I think StanT has a point here... a lot of guys (not all, but a fair amount, and pretty much all of the men that I have come into contact with) really DON'T want you to bake, dust, pick up, etc. and that's why they wouldn't do it if you didn't do it. But they also won't complain if you clean up their mess. At the same time, many will not thank you (again, some do), because they are perfectly fine living without all of those things. So I wouldn't assume that they "want" you to do those things, because assumptions are just uncommunicated expectations, and those are trouble in a relationship.

For me, I try to get farther away from that "desire to please," because often, the things that I do to "please" are really just attempts to have control and attention. The times when I sincerely do something in order to please the other person, it doesn't bother me if they don't thank me, because I am just glad to see them happy (and ironically, most of the time this is when they thank me and I least expect it!)

Now, I feel very uncomfortable living in a mess, and this will be an issue that my bf and I have to deal with eventually, since I will not pick up his stuff and I don't expect him to pick up mine. If we are sharing a space (e.g. living together), though, I expect us both to be grown-up enough at that point to pick up our own stuff and manage a good-looking shared living space, and a place that we would both feel comfortable bringing friends and family home to.

If we were in the situation that you are in, Raeanna, I think I would be miserable and want out of there... and in fact, we WERE in that situation when we were stuck living together prematurely, for 5 months, and I nearly broke up with him at the end.

I really think that neatness compatibility (regardless of gender) is as important as sexual compatibility; it can make or break the relationship, even after (or especially after) marriage. Maybe I should start a separate thread...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

abaya

You hit the nail on the head, lurkette... this is the thing that has ALWAYS bugged me most about other women, when they are trying to play the "mysterious" role and get attention that way. And actually, the sad fact is that most of them succeed... many, many guys LOVE the mysterious woman, the whole "chase" and game thing, and that's WHY the women continue doing it... because they see how the girls who are "one of the guys" don't get boyfriends until college or afterwards.

It is also, unfortunately, the thing that bugs me most about myself... I am almost always "one of the guys," but occasionally I feel 12 years old again and see myself as the uncool dorky girl around all the chic kids, and feel more insecure than ever about my looks, my behavior, etc (I don't take on the mysterious-woman persona, nor do I start acting like a girly-girl around guys, but I still feel insecure). This is something I deal with more often than I'd like to admit, though I am constantly working on it. I don't think that only women do this... men do it, too, and the insecure ones have their own ways of getting attention. But I think the more aware you are of those behaviors, the more you can work on getting rid of them... women can become "one of the guys," and guys can become "one of the gurls"... at least, in my utopian world.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

K-Wise

Why it's because we men are hunters!!! /end silly stereotype

Asta!!

__________________
"I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project

It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys! - Asta!!

raeanna74

This is how I once thought. I have since learned to communicate things better. I do things for myself or simply because they need to be done. Granted I like to be given credit for what I do sometimes because I know if I didn't do the dishes daily that someone would eventually come whining to me for a mold free dish to eat off of. But in general and on a day to day basis I do it for myself. I have learned to be much more open and to express my desires without being restrictive. At least no more restrictive than I can help myself being.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.