LunarEclipse

Just read a 2008 interview in Newsweek with Gary Neuman (family counselor, rabbi) who did a two-year study of 100 men who had sexual affairs and 100 men who were faithful. His book is "The Truth About Cheating: Why Men Stray and What You Can Do To Prevent It."

Whenever I read a “study” or survey about cheating men I always want more detail on the men surveyed. How old, how long married, how attractive .. I think this makes a difference.

I cant’ help but wonder if the faithful men have had an opportunity to cheat? It’s always easy to say I would never cheat until you are actually faced with the choice.

Are faithful men less attractive on the whole then the men who did cheat?

So I am basically asking if men don’t cheat only because they can’t. If they were younger, or better looking and had the opportunity I think most men would cheat. What do you think?

p.s. I’m not looking for a moral discussion on people’s opinions about cheating.

LunarEclipse.

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

levite

Well, I can't speak for others, but I have never cheated, in any relationship that I've been in. I have had, to my recollection, four direct opportunities to do so, and have been somewhat tempted in two of those instances, but have never actually done it. Nor would I.

I personally just think that monogamous relationships are a matter of honor and integrity. If you really feel like you can't live without fucking someone else, fine: you break up with your partner, like a mature, grown-up human being, and then you go shack up. But no one is unable to have the simple common courtesy to tell your partner that it's over before screwing someone else.

I don't think it's a matter of how young and good-looking you are, or how much sex you could get. It's simply a matter of principle. That's why we have break-ups and divorces. So people don't have to lie and betray others.

Sorry if that seems strong, but I believe quite a lot in this kind of relationship ethics.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Manic_Skafe

I don't think anyone here would disagree with the ethics underlying your post but the simple truth is, and I do believe this to be the reason as to why so many cheat, relationships are simply much more complicated and dynamic than that.

Surely you can imagine it as a hell of a lot more than a matter of common courtesy when you consider that leaving to sleep around or be with someone else can and often does entail (to name only a few) losing your entire social circle, being demonized in the eyes of those you respect and admire, being seen as a monster by your children, a shitstorm of a legal troubles, etc.

I'm not buying the dichotomy put forward in the initial post between faithful and cheating men - especially since almost all of the guys I know who are now faithful to their partners had to cheat and suffer the consequences enough times to know not to fuck things up.

Paying for sex is easy enough - anyone can cheat. There are in fact, people out there who are totally faithful as a matter of choice entirely. I think it simply a matter of knowing what you really want and avoiding the sorts of situations that could lead to cheating.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

levite

I think that if merely deciding to end one's relationship before beginning another causes one's friends to reject one, then they were bad friends to begin with. And if not, then one needs to question one's own actions.

What I'm saying is that actions have meanings. Ending a committed long-term relationship in order to start sleeping with someone else may be unpopular with one's children or ex-partner, but it is honest and forthright.

Cheating is dishonest and underhanded. And as far as I have been able to tell, having watched it happen from the POV of a friend, of an acquaintance, of a co-worker, of a rabbi: when cheaters are discovered-- and they are almost always discovered-- the resultant shitstorm seems far worse than what would likely have occurred had they simply ended their relationship or filed for divorce, and been up-front about everything in the first place. Most people can get over a person ending a relationship, falling out of love with their long-term partner, and moving on in their lives. They may be sad to see the relationship end, and they may even think that the couple should have worked on it more; but in the end, all they can say is that when it wasn't working for Party Number One, s/he broke it off with Party Number Two; and the talk usually dies down relatively quickly. But when Party Number One cheats, the drama inevitably becomes a nine days wonder for all and sundry, and in fact is almost always dragged out interminably, with terrible results for all concerned.

Regardless, in the end, the truth is pretty simple. Committing to a long-term monogamous relationship is just that: a commitment. It is not a petty commitment. And making it formal by getting married makes it an even more serious commitment. In doing so, one is pledging that one will prioritize the honorable treatment of one's partner over the momentary whims of one's genitals.

If one is not able to make such a commitment, one should not get married, and should have only very informal relationships. No harm, no foul. But if one does make such a commitment, one should stick to it. I'm not saying it always has to be "until death do us part," but I think that having a formalized or de facto long-term committed monogamous relationship means that you have the integrity to be honest; and if honesty requires that you end the relationship, you do so, and face the consequences like a mature adult.

If one is embarrassed about ending one's long-term committed relationship in order to screw around a lot or shack up with someone clearly inappropriate to one's age or position or whatnot (let's say), then one should have more self-control. And if one is willing to prioritize screwing around a lot and shacking up with inappropriate partners, fine: but then one needs to be adult enough to face the fact that that is one's priority, and not one's long-term partner, or kids, or what have you.

Cheating is lying. Not just to others, but to oneself. And deceit is just not healthy.

Which is odd, because almost all the guys I know who are faithful to their partners didn't have to cheat and suffer the consequences. They just didn't cheat-- at least not after middle school, or maybe high school at the latest, and most of them not at all.

They just knew that part of being a man is to man up to situations, and face them head-on. Part of being a man is having integrity and honor: a man's word means something. He doesn't break it lightly, he deals straight with everyone. And a man should know that it's more important for people to know you're honest than for people to wrongly think you're a saint.

Call me old-fashioned if you like, but I really believe that. And so do most of the guys I'm friends with.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

LunarEclipse

I guess I have had some bad experiences and have known MANY men to cheat. Although many would disagree that you can be a cheater and a "nice guy" these men seem happy in their marriage and basically kind and decent human beings. They cheat with women who don't necessarily want a "full time relationship" but want someone to have sex with. They admit that they do not want to "hurt their wives" and of course, many think they just won't get caught therefore not thinking of the consequences.

So far the answers seem to be that it doesn't matter what type of situation a man is faced with, there are men out there who won't cheat - period.

LunarEclipse

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Sheepy

Isn't it a no brainer that women find men who don't cheat more attractive?

Shows:
-can't show commitment
- isn't loyal/faithful
- isn't trustworthy
- is greedy
- careless
- ect ect

The only only way i could understand cheating men in an attractive light to others is if that 'other' only wanted a sexual relationship that had no 'reserved' rules. So cheating doesn't exist.

But i think there are a few exceptions: As for some reason a cheating guy can imply a few things: 1) he's hard competition for girls to 'tame.' It's attractive for girls to know as a reflection into their own value and ability that they would need to work at 'satisfying' him to keep him theres above the normal girl 2) a show of male ruthlessness means he goes for what he want's, so it's like an attractive confidence in breaking the rules. 3) He would be seen as a 'daring' person.


An old school buddy of mine father commit suicide some time after his wife cheated on him. Just shows even for 'males' that there are those out there who completely invest their security in the other person and it does have a lot of value.

Charlatan

I just don't think it's all so black and white. I don't think I ever have.

I think there is too much emphasis in sex as an indicator of fidelity. For me, it is more about emotional commitment. Divided loyalties and all that.

The physical act of sex with another person can be quite intimate (as it is with a committed partner) but it can also just be a release, perhaps a notch about masturbation.

Not everyone feels this way and, by and large, society shares views similar to Levite (at least on the shiny surface we show to each other) so there will continually be conflict along these lines.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Lindy

I was quite the sextrovert as a teenager, and got in big trouble in high school because of a guy who wouldn't cheat.

One day after school I hit hard on the band teacher. He was in his mid twenties, gorgeous, hot, let all the kids call him by his first name, and I just wanted him. And when it comes to sex, what Lindy wants, Lindy gets. So I thought at seventeen. Besides, I'd noticed him trying to pretend that he wasn't checking out my tits. After school I went into one of the practice rooms, took off my bra under my tee shirt, and put it in my purse. Then I went into his office, where he was sitting slouched in his chair facing the computer screen, and I just kind of draped my boobs over his shoulders. He looked at me in the mirror on his desk and said "Lindy, what are you doing?" and I said something to the effect that he should lock the door and pull the shade, I had something I wanted to show him. He said "Lindy, wait, I have to go to the bathroom." and walked out the door. Then he went and CALLED MY DAD who walked in the door about ten minutes later. I was mortified! I adore my Dad and I could tell the he was so hurt and...disappointed in me. I was grounded for the rest of the year --about six weeks. Took my car away. Made me do volunteer work at a nursing home. We laugh about it now, fifteen years later, but God, was I in the doghouse.

Five years later he (band director) sent me a card for college graduation and wrote a nice note about how I was one of his favorite students, and thanking me for helping him in his personal growth. I cried and cried and cried. And writing this I'm sniffing, and my eyes are all misty, which happens every time I think of this incident in my young life.

I could talk about this in Sexuality, but there's no sex in it.

Lindy

LunarEclipse

And there it is ...

For every opinion there is an equal(?) and opposite one. I could make a whole argument for or against cheating and really, stats are just that stats, numbers which don't really mean anything.

And each person lives their own lives with their own reality and I guess really, when it comes right down to it, does it really matter? We live, we die, we try to make the most of what is in between.

It's good to get things into perspective

Lunar Eclipse

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

canuckguy

"Men are as only as loyal as their options" I believe that was a Bill Maher quote but sounds like something George would have said.

Not that I agree with it but maybe there is a part of truth to it. Most of my friend who I know that cheat are general the lairs you'd think they should be for people willing to cheat on a spouse. Most fit a common theme but I find it hard too describe what that is.

I don't pass judgment but that does not mean I agree with on the side sex. Just I have better things to do with my limited free time. My wife jumps on me all the time so really if I had any free time I would pass up sex with a stranger to going for a bike ride. Not sure if that sounds sad or not :P

I must be getting old.

Anonymous Member

I'll bite.

I cheated once. On a girl that loved me much more than I loved her. She was a good girl.

After I cheated, I was really unhappy with myself and had a long, long conversation with a friend.

For me it basically boils down to a desire to reach higher goals--I want a family. I want a wife that loves me. I want to know that I can resist temptation and that I did what was right by my wife. I want to be honorable, and I want to set a good example for my future kids. Every time I get the desire to be a reckless youth and get in to the 'hunt' again, I remind myself of my higher goals, and I really ask myself if one night of pleasure is really worth giving up my life goal of having a strong family.

I also think about how much it hurt when I've been cheated on, and how much I hurt the ex that I cheated on--the guilt still sometimes plagues me.

If a really attractive girl threw herself at me--I would honestly have a hard time resisting. But, my aspiration for a good family makes me stay away from potentially compromising situations (this...really attractive...medical student was grinding on me...who I've had a crush on for years...but I thanked her for the dance and went to drink beers with my friend...I think it was the right choice.)

LunarEclipse

I'm quoting myself LOL.

This would make for a boring world w/ no discusison though so let's stir the pot a little and make things interesting ... I was going to ask another question but I should probably start another thread.

LunarEclipse.

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Plan9

Eh, I don't think "Men are as loyal as their options" assuming you're just talking about the ability to find another woman. Anybody can find another somebody quite easily. Let's change "men" to "people" and look at the motivation instead. I mean, I've been on the flipside of this. I've had two partners curbstomp me over emotional migration. Generally speaking, in serious relationships: men cheat for sex, women cheat for love. When things are "all fucked up," nothing is better for a man than banging New Pussy and nothing is better for a girl than cuddling up to New Shoulders after said banging.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Charlatan

A generalization to be sure... but there is an amount of truth to be found in these words.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

EventHorizon

if all you see when you see a statistic is some ink on paper then i think you're missing out on quite a bit of wisdom. stats give clues as to what is likely. what behaviors commonly can be associated with cheating, how many unfaithful partners choose a certain response for their motivations. does everyone have an opinion? sure but it coincides with alot of other people's opinions which can turn into behaviors. i think stats would be very helpful when it comes to someone wondering if their SO is cheating on them.

__________________
Does Marcellus Wallace have the appearance of a female canine? Then for what reason did you attempt to copulate with him as if he were a female canine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy Pretty simple really, do your own thing as long as it does not fuck with anyone's enjoyment of life.

Willravel

200 is a small sample size.

Cheating has to do with a combination of level of temptation, opportunity, odds of being caught, and ethical character, I'd imagine.

LunarEclipse

But you must also admit people can skew stats to their own ends.

My problem is I always think about the percentage of people/things who don't fit into a certain category. Or when people say, what are the odds of this or that happening. Even if the odds are enormous I always think there is that possibiltiy. I don't know if I'm explaining myself correctly.

In any event, some burning questions don't seem so burning down the line.

LunarEclipse

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Mikey5

a big component of cheating is: how healthy is the relationship? People, not just men, won't stray from a good relationship. It's pretty clear when it's starting to go poorly, so people need to talk through their troubles and fix them. Ignoring them or just tolerating them creates distance, that leads to less sex.

It's all about the relationship and not so much about opportunity. If you're in love with someone, you wouldn't ever think of cheating. If either spouse becomes distant, not fun to be around, the other spouse will drift away and if not addressed, they may cheat.

I've never cheated and had 7-8 opportunities to with married women. None of my guy friends have cheated. So my experience is counter to what society believes. Let's face it, the guys gotta be cheating with someone, so it's not like women are blameless.

In my observation, cheating is pretty rare.

sclose

This is very true. I think it is the biggest component to cheating. In the relationship, is the sex good? Is it fulfilling? Is each person satisfied (momentarily)? Be honest and skip the ego.

I think there are three main factors for a guy cheating.

1. Some men are extremely prone to cheating. They have a mindset where they think it is okay to have sex with more than one woman. They don't care or understand how it hurts people. They just care about their sexual excitement. When an opportunity comes usually these guys think "Don't worry about her."

2. Other guys are prone because their relationship is crap. Treat a guy like crap, he is way more prone to cheating. An opportunity comes up, he'll think "She treats me bad, why should I protect her?"

3. For some reason their guard isn't up. Say they get in a fight the night before or they are drunk or a combination of the two. They have a chance and it "just happens." Usually they feel extreme regret.

Those really are the only 3 reasons that a guy cheats.

LunarEclipse

Yes, I agree, and I think there are a lot of men out there like that.

My original question was..damn I don't even remember what my original question was..

Oh, are men who are more attractive more prone to cheat because they probably have more opportunity (more women coming on to them).

So a guy won't cheat if opportunity comes knocking if he is not a dog in the first place, has a fulfilling sex life (where each partner is happy w/ the amount of sex)? a good communicative marriage and/or does not get drunk and screw someone?

I would agree with that, attractive or not.

LunarEclipse

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

james t kirk

Here's the first post that I've read till now that makes sense. Yay.

Here's another thought.......for every man cheating - guess what. He's cheating with a woman. So from a purely mathematical point of view, women cheat every bit as much as men. Oh, sure, you can poo poo it saying that there are prostitutes out there, and homewreckers, blah blah blah, but mathematically, it won't make that big of a difference on the overall numbers.

Myself, I was in a relationship in University where I totally adored my GF and never so much as flirted with another woman. I was much more black and white when I was in my early 20's. Ironically, she acused me of having several affairs. More ironically still, she ended up cheating on me.

As I got older, I started cheating on my female partners. Usually multiple times with multiple women. It wasn't that hard. It fucks with your mind the first time, but frankly later, it gets much easier. Didn't bother me in the least even. I was quite able to keep my lives compartmentalized.

Why did I cheat?

Cause I love sex and liked the variety. No bigger turn on than a new body, a new experience, a new everything. It's not because my relationship was good, bad, or indifferent. I've cheated because I like sex with different women. (Sort of like Fatal Attraction. Michael Douglas had a happy marriage, perfect wife, family, kid, sex life etc. But he cheats on his wife anyway. Why? Because it's there and he likes it. Simple as that.) Not saying this is always the case, not by any means am I saying that. But for me and all my friends who cheat- it largely is.

When I was in my 20's and 30's my sex drive was through the roof. Now in my 40's it has waned. Probably comes with age, or just plain boredom / amusement at it all. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm still good to go, and love sex just as much as ever. I just am not as obsessed with it as I used to be or persue it like I used to.

Also, as I've gotten older, infidelity is no longer a deal breaker for me. I encourage my current GF to have sex with other men if she wants to. (I'm a bit of a kinker that way and I love hearing about her past experiences. I am quite confident in my abilities in the bedroom, and outside of the bedroom. I figure if she wants to leave me flat out cold for another guy - well, OK. I can't prevent it really. I'm just myself now and if she feels there is better out there for her - then indeed there must be better and good for her.)

As I've gotten older, I have come to the realization that pretty much everyone cheats at one time or another. I accept this and I sleep better in this acceptance.

LunarEclipse

Hey James,
Thanks for your honesty ... I am hesitant to lay my cards on the table and talk freely about my ideas/opinions about sex but here goes ...

I can relate to a lot of what you said ... I get turned on when my man talks about his past and some of his sexual "conquests." I am sure some of them are from the not so recent past and in large part I don't ask and he doesn't tell.

So do I think he sleeps with other women from time to time, absolutely. Does it bother me, no, but I am also of the age where I am not looking for the love of my life and he and I are good friends and have the kind of sex that I don't get from more traditional relationships.

So it's whatever works and what works for some people does not work for others.

LunarEclipse

__________________
"Know thyself?" If I knew myself, I'd run away. ~
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Lindy

It wouldn't work for me, but I think that couples having multiple partners can work out if it is an accepted and expected part of the relationship. They aren't trying to hide it from each other, and it doesn't threaten the primary relationship. But if it's open and accepted, I wouldn't label it "cheating" either, 'cause it's within the accepted parameters of the relationship.

Lindy

Poetry

Exactly. Which is why I don't knowingly touch involved men. So many Women cry and whine about men cheating on them but never seem to think ill of themselves when they are the one assisting in infidelity.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

gentlesoul43

Monogamy among humans were created as part of the civilized world.

The instinct of the alpha male is to mate with as many people as possible. I generalize, but that is why successful men have more options and women flock to exciting, dangerous men.

I don't condone cheating, but it may just be in our DNA. We use porn etc as an escape but we can't suppress our inner selves, which is we want more than what we have.