Push-Pull

Sorry this is so to the point, got to get out the door. The questions are pretty much what I wanted to ask though.....

Here's the deal. Let's say committed relationship, long history of trust and no cheating. Let's also say one partner's libido is quite a bit more driven than the other's.

Is it the "less driven" partner's prerogative to say "no" anytime they don't feel like it, or should they give in on occasion for the sake of the other?

If yes, how often should they give in (if at all)?

At what point does saying "no" become selfish (if any)?

At what point does asking for the lesser driven to say "yes" become selfish (if any)?

I realize that the answers will be subjective for most people, but I'd still like your viewpoints.

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abaya

To be honest, I don't think any of these questions can really be answered without getting you and your partner into marriage counseling and getting to the root of the problem. It's really not about sex or saying yes or no, or how many times "should" someone say/do something... there are no rules on this. It comes down to you and your partner, and the dynamic therein. You might get some anecdotal responses here, but none of them would stand up statistically as proof of what "should" be right for you, because of the strong bias we all have towards our own relationships as a standard.

In other words: Don't compare and contrast with others. Go to counseling and work on your (and your partner's) particular issues behind this.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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surferlove007

If you feel like you need more lovin' then tell your partner, hey whenever you feel like it let me know and I'll be down, perhaps literally.
But yea, just discuss it with them
If they don't feel like doing it, then masturbate. But I know there have been times where I really wanna do it and James was just not up to it and yea it's disappointing but they're people too and might just be having a hard time and once they're past that hard time it's all good.

Maybe try to do it in the shower unexpected or something sexy like that, to spice stuff up.

mandy

Tell me about it...i'm however the one with the libido that sags a bit. it's sometimes very frustrating and disappointing for healer but i know he understands...it did take him a while though.

Cos, one night he's be wanting me and "it" and i'd be not wanting the same, instead just some cuddley wuddley type stuff, you know.

i think what i'm trying to say is that i tried the whole give in and just let it happen thing but that wasnt working for both of us, cos my head and heart wasnt in it and in tun that turned him completely off...

i think communication is key here as with many other relationship issues.

you guys just have to figure out when the other is ready and willing and capitalise on that situation.

as for the questions, i dont think it's selfish for one partner to have a "slow" libido and neither is it selfish for them to say no. what i do think is selfish though is the "non-understanding" from partner number two.

it does take time though.

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World's King

Everyone has the right to say 'no' whenever they want.


The fact you feel they must give in for your sake makes you far more selfish.

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StellaLuna

I "gave in" a few times with my ex-- all I could do later was cry. Speaking as one who's been in the "lesser-driven" position, giving in just to make my partner feel better actually made me feel like a whore.

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noodle

I'm agreeing with King, here.
Everyone has the right to say no at any time.
And if you feel the need to push, there's a problem far beyond incongruent libidos.
That's how I feel, anyway.
On occasion I may not "feel like it", but if I don't necessarily feel NOT like it, I've been known to let myself go a little and more often than not, I have fun.
It's when I feel NOT like it that I end up feeling like Stella.
I'm the one with the lower drive at times.

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World's King

Forcing someone into having sex with you is rape/date rape.

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Jenna

I agree.

Ustwo

I don't to a point.

If you are married and your wife decides shes done with sex, that doesn't mean its fair you are done too.

Its not selfish to expect her to care enough about YOUR needs to take care of them at least once in a while. At worst if its not hurting her, its a chore, and while no one likes doing chores you do them because its worse if you don't do them. Be it laundry, or doing dishes or in this case doing your husband.

While its her right to say no, I think after a point it would be his right to seek sexual gratification else where. Personally I think thats when its time for a divorce.

A marriage isnt' only about sex, in fact sex may be a lower priority then a lot of things, but once its never about sex, its now at best a friendship (and normally due to the strain the sex issue has, not a good one).

I suppose what I have to wonder about is why so many sexless marriages have the member not getting it afraid to pull the plug. I can't say I know the details of a lot of them, but those I do know are either in a state of total disarray or had no one happy in it until they were divorced.

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Jenna

You're right, but you shouldn't feel forced into having sex. Sure, the reasons behind it may be different - and cause for divorce/break-up. But, overall, you essentially have the right to say no. And I don't think there's a specific amount of times you "can" say no. The details and needs of your partner will dictate whether or not it works for the relationship.

But yeah, I agree that it's a little more complicated.

ASU2003

I actually agree with Ustwo...

While anyone can turn down their partner, if it is greater than 50% it is something that you need to talk to them about and find a way to fix it or split up.

ngdawg

I know more sexless marriages than vice versa(my own included) and while the reasons may vary as to why they are sexless in the first place, the reasons they're still together are not that varied; kids, bills, established within community, families, and not wanting to lose what took so long to gain, etc.
My best friend's wife announced on her 50th birthday there would be no more sex. Period.
My husband announced two years ago that he would never ever again ask me for it. At first, I hung on about two months, then attacked. It was the worst I'd ever had. I thought I had a 'low libido'-I didn't need it and too many times it did seem like a chore-he didn't do 'quickies' and always had to get me to orgasm, even when I insisted it wasn't necessary. It wasn't my libido that was the problem, I've come to find out.
Saying "no' is everyone's right; reasons for saying "no" might not be as cut and dry as "just not feeling like it". When that starts to happen more often then not, having a low libido isn't the issue-having less love probably is.

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Plan9

Marriage means not holding up both sides of the bridge.

This could be money, emotions, sex, whatever.

...

If my next wife decided she didn't want to have sex anymore and I wasn't 80... I'd probably tell her that there is a lot of porn in her future.

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mandy

that was more concise and to the point than i could ever have done. touche WK.

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Charlatan

This is one of the many reasons why prostitution continues to be a viable business.

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MrFriendly

While I entirely agree, a person has the right to say no and that right must be respected.

But you're absolutely kidding yourself if you think a relationship is going to last when one partner is sexually driven and the other has no desire at all and it remains an exclusive relationship.

So what do you do?

Unless one partner is ok with the other getting the sexual fix else where, it's going to be a pretty sucky situation for both parties.

It's a tough position to be put in.

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ShaniFaye

and what if its a decision that cant be helped? Suppose Dave lost his dick in some freak flogging accident (yes I was making a joke....feel free to insert whatever horrible accident that could happen and leave him unable to perform) should I divorce him because there is no sex and we'd be at a friendship stage?

I think not

I have been known to engage in activities even when I didnt feel like it to make HIM feel good, but the difference is he doesnt expect me to do that. If I say "no" he knows its not going to happen. BUT 7 times out of 10 I usually offer a bj if I myself am not in the "mood" to be taken to heights of glorious passion (isnt it sad how there ARE actually times we dont want that lol). The conversation will usually go something like

Dave "I wanna take you in the bedroom and fuck you really hard"
Shannon "Its been a really rough day, Im too tired to participate and I'd feel guilty just laying there....I would really love to give you a blow job though"

lol this is when we get the closest to an "argument" that we ever have. He will decide that its more important for him to mess with me and give me an orgasm so I can releax than for him to have one. We waste more time laying in bed deciding who is going to get who off if we dont feel like intercourse.

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ratbastid

In my experience, sex issues are usually the first reflection of deeper issues in the relationship. When something's going on that needs figuring out, it often shows up in sex first.

Ustwo

If he refused to even talk about your sexual needs after, yes. Normally its more of a chemical castration so to speak as sex is all chemical, but its not the lack of desire/ability which is the problem but the lack of carying on the part of the other spouse. The "I don't want it so you won't get any" is the real problem I see.

Which is the problem again in the sexless marriage. Dave never is forced to get to that stage where someone just says enough is enough. I've never been there either, but my guess is a lot of us know people who are.

You guys worry if the other one is happy sexually so its not an issue for you. There is nothing wrong with not wanting it any given day, but when days turn to years and the other spouse doesn't seem to care, then I can understand thinking of things like divorce.

I'd say in most cases this is indeed correct, and in part why I favor divorce after a point has been reached. I lean towards the divorce end because when I have seen this, everyone is always miserable until they get the divorce. So while I think its best to work out the issues where there is room for it, sometimes its best to pull the plug.

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Seaver

And how many times would you be happy with your relationship if he all of a sudden has no interest in sex? How long would you be happy when after two weeks of subtle hints that you're feeling sexual he says, "ugh, fine" and simply lays there staring at the celing? How many headaches would you put up with?

I believe you're in such a wonderful relationship you're ignoring or not believing the rediculous aspects many marriages go through. My brother went a full year without having sex with his wife (married only 3). She just lost interest for whatever reason. I agree fully that things in relationships change, and sex is usually an indicator of the relationship, but it's also a major aspect of the relationship.

If I sell you a car that runs great, is always up and running and has never given any trouble getting started.... and all of a sudden after you purchase refuses to run there's only so long that you can work on the car and/or ignore the problem before you're going to give up on it and find a new one.

"But Seaver women are not bought like cars!"

Yeah I know, but the analogy is correct. I agree that ideally all, and in reality probably half, of all cases it's stress, the daily life, and the little things they stopped doing has killed the romance in the relationship. However I know from first hand experience sometimes people just stop wanting it. And it's not fair to the other person in the relationship.

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abaya

That's why I'm saying that a couple needs to get into counseling and hash out the deeper issues, or hell, even see a sex therapist (if it's really *only* about the sex, and everything else is fine... but I doubt that's the case here). Both people have to want to ask for help... without that, there's only so many "No's" a person can handle before the shit hits the fan in one way or another.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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ShaniFaye

I think my point is being missed. Ustwo said that a marriage without sex is just a friendship and whats the point, why not pull the plug (or thats how I read it anyway)....MY point was that lots of people are married that cant have sex...yeah its a little off base of the OP and not wanting to, but I wanted to address that not all marriages are a case of "i dont feel like it" they are cases of CANT and those marriages still continue.

Or are we in a totally different ball game when we are talking unable vs unwilling?

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Racnad

Either party has a right to say no. Not every time is the right time for sex with both parties. But in most cases a "right time" should occur within a few days or a week. If weeks and months pass and a good time for sex does not occur, then the couple must explore what is going on, and the low-libido partner has to participate.

I look at it this way, if you and your bf/gf love to play tennis together and after marraige your spouse decides they don't want to play tennis any more, you are free to join a tennis club and play with others. But when it comes to sex, you're shit out of luck if you're sticking to the normal marriage arraingement.

I've had an idea that the standard marriage agreement should include a clause where if one partner refuses sex for 30 days or more, the other partner can have sex one time with another person. This allows breaks for menstral cycles and most illnesses, and creates an incentive for the low-libodo partner to address whatever is interfering with their libido. As long as you do have sex once a month, the partner must remain faithful. Frankly, that seems like a low bar to meet.

Ustwo

Yes I did miss your point there. I think though that what you described was an unusual circumstance and obviously my point couldn't cover every unusual circumstance. Closer to home Mrs. Ustwo just had a baby (thats two since I joined TFP for those of you keeping track) which meant very little sex for the last 6 or so months and no sex for the last 2. On top of that Mrs. Ustwo got in very good shape prior to the baby so now that she has 40 lbs of baby fat to lose shes feeling pretty ugly so her drive is lower as she doesn't feel 'sexy', added breast feeding REALLY screws with your hormones as it tells your body to not want to have sex until the child is weened. Thats a legitimate 'can't' and I don't have any issues with it. I also know this is temporary so its more something I can tease her with.

There needs to be a distinction between the still in love, still desire each other but just 'can't' have sex relationship vrs the apathetic, don't care, leave me alone, going through the motions type that seems so common.

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abaya

Wow, you just gave me even more reasons for why I don't want babies anytime soon (and I just turned 28--prime childbearing age, at least among my friends).

Incidentally, how do you manage that situation, Ustwo?... open relationship, beating off, what? Just curious how the realities of pregnancy/post-birth are handled among healthy couples.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Ustwo

Well I know of some pregnant women who get more horny, but Mrs. Ustwo is not one of those.

As for what I do, I think opens up a good avenue of discussion.

I know I'm not going to get laid tonight, that doesn't bother me because I know its a temporary thing, so I can tease my wife about her fat ass (yes I am able to do that without getting hurt) and we can laugh about it, and there is no strain in our relationship. On the other hand if I knew I was not going to get laid tonight or any other night for the rest of my life, it would be a major strain and something that would be affecting me daily.

So while I do get sources of relief (and I'll leave it at that) they are not required. I think if I knew my sex life with her was 'over' then I'd be in a completely different frame of mind even though the over all sex amount was the same.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

MexicanOnABike

simply enough, sex is part of relationships. If my wife tells me she's done, i'll tell her i'm gonna get another GF to have sex with. without sex, it's just friendship. that's my thoughts on it.
and no, i'm not gonna argue anything i just said.

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The Magic

I think people are losing sight of the question in extreme examples...

Anyway

I'd say it has to do with what the relationship grew from.

Unless one of them had been dissatisfied with the sex (frequency) since the beginning, it takes a change to mess things up.

If it's a drastic enough change, I'd say that's a bit unfair. It's just about as bad as having a huge sudden personality change that could create problems.

If one of the people had been dissatisfied since the beginning, they should have tried communicating it more maybe. As this is somewhat (not exactly frequency) of an issue for me right now too, I know it can be hard to discuss with your parter. If it becomes too much for the person and they feel like their partner should have sex with them because of their drive, I think they're being selfish because they knew what they were bringing themselves into.

ssratt

If the word is NO, then it is NO.
If it goes as far as needing some counseling then so be it.
Before that, if it has been a while and she won't say why then just date rosie
It may be a deal breaker to you, and it might end in sadness, BUT YOU SHOULD NEVER MAKE HER GIVE IN.
That IS rape

Push-Pull

Woah, hold on there! Now I wasn't talking about "get undressed and spread 'em" type of stuff, but more like giving the sad puppy begging look to get some.

Much like Shani posted, if there is a compromise that can come after the initial "no" that both parties can live with, then why not? I'll settle (or beg, although I've pretty much given up on that..... ) for a BJ or a handjob in the shower anytime if she's not up to "it" and freely offers these alternatives, but FORCE her? Never. That's not how I operate.

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"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

bloody_rose20

Okay, seeing as me and my mans labido are about as high as eachothers, sometimes his is higher than mine, and sometimes mine is higher than his. But, I say that whoever is not in the mood, should give in and pleasure their partner every once and ahwile. Like, when I am not in the mood for sex, I will give my man a blowjob and some anal fingering to get him off because I love him. And when he is not in the mood, he will do oral on me, use a vibrator and play with my ass as well to get me off. Doesn't take much energy and the other person still ends up happy. So yes, you should give in here and there. But sometimes you can just say no, its fine.

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wheelhomies

it never ceases to amaze me how people can just not feel bad for doing incredibly shitty things to others.

anyway, to address the op...you shouldn't have to force your partner into being sexual. humans are sexual creatures, and if they honestly never want to bang, there's something wrong. maybe the two of you aren't sexually compatible, maybe they feel emotionally unfulfilled, maybe they're stressed...there are many factors that influence libido. but living without sex when it's offered to you by you SO? that's just not right.

i guess the motivations behind the saying no are what determines whether or not it's selfish. for instance, if you can't please your lover, and that's why they're saying no...then that's not really selfish. but if they're just saying no all the time because they don't take into account your needs...then yeah, that's selfish.

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Push-Pull

I just ran across this in the "Sex after 10 years" thread. I thought that it would be appropriate here. I'm going to show the wife this site and see if we can't start talking about the true issues.

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"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-