Ustwo

Laugh, I'll believe it when I see it.

Seriously this is laughable. Most 'young people' I knew when I was working menial jobs bitched constantly about the amount that social security took out of their pay checks (and they know nothing about employer matching).

The only reason a young person should think of leaving over social security changes is if the government decides they need to tax them all to the brink to pay for the aging population. That is a lot more scary to a young person then lack of free crappy health care, or small checks when they are retirement age.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smooth

Your last paragraph is exactly the position we are taking as well as the opinion of the discussant.

Where exactly do you think the money comes from to fund the transition costs? Scratch that, if it's too far off topic. Where was I even talking about menial labor when I mentioned the brain drain? The young posters in this thread are Ph. D. students. If you want to laugh while we go somewhere else, fine, but the nations reaping the rewards aren't laughing--they're excited from the looks of their immigration websites.

Laugh and scoff all you want. We are a lot different than the youth of when you went to school. It is ludicrous to me that people continuously compare the generations without acknowledging the different historical realities and opportunities each one faced.


As I initially said, the primary reason we're (my wife and I) moving is economic. Shortly, I want a good paying job.

Now I added that I'm willing to give up a substantial portion of that income for social services I see as desirable. I didn't say I was leaving the country for free health care or social security. I don't see any reason to work in a country that pays me shitty wages, doesn't give me the social services I want for my taxdollars, and is preparing the public to shit on me when I finally retire.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Ustwo

I have a doctorate as well. I picked mine based on economic viability, and that I happen to like working with people.

I’m 34 years old. I doubt that you are any different then when I was there in the least. People have a tendency to think they are somehow better, more special then the others who came before them. They are quite wrong, we are very much the same people. Some attitudes may change but motivations rarely do.

I’m always for people bettering their economic circumstance.

I pay less for my health insurance then a Canadian making 1/3rd as much as I do (see the health care thread I started) pays in taxes for his, and its better. I don’t plan on the public handling my retirement, nor do I plan to work ‘for the country’ so the country won’t be paying me shitty wages. I don’t know what your PhD is in, but if it is of low desirability and there is a higher desirability else where, then it makes sense to move. As they say in business, location, location, location. If enough do move then you will see an increase in demand at home again.

Social security obviously needs to be fixed. Bush’s baby steps won’t be enough but at least they may get the ball rolling. All I hear from my colleagues in socialist countries like Germany and France, is how tight the budgets are and how they can’t see the system being there for them in 20 years. The US economy is still the strongest in the world, and for all of our problems paying for an ageing population they are PEANUTS compared to what Europe faces per person. Canada is already unable to properly fund its health care system (again see my old thread) and its only getting worse.

In the end all of the Western economies, will need to make some major cuts in social services. Odds are taxes will go way up at first before the producing part of the population gives up and then funding for all the wonderful programs will be drastically cut. Try not to rely on these programs or you will find yourself in trouble come retirement.

So if you want to move because you get shitty wages for your skills, then you SHOULD move, I know I would. If you think its going to be better beyond that, you will have unpleasant surprises in your future.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

smooth

I saw your old thread, and I posted a series of questions you couldn't answer.

My degree, which I'm very surprised you don't know what it's in since I've posted it in a few places, is very desirable in the US. It's one of the blooming areas of the economy. But my wage is only a portion of a larger economic portrait.

At some point the piper will come calling, and then my wages (regardless of how high they are) will become very shitty indeed relative to my social conditions.


However, this really isn't about me justifying to you of all people why I will leave the country. My point is that it doesn't make sense to allow conditions that push the educated away from a region and then scoff at them as they take away necessary resources and add them to someone else's economy.

I'm not discussing personal motivations. Your comment on that regard is ahistorical and every qualifier you added to it had absolutely nothing to do with context. I don't know how you conclude that I was saying the graduates of today are better than those of a few decades ago.

I said the exact opposite--that opportunities and conditions are decreasing.

I'm also not laughing or scoffing at anyone about anything.

Edit: I wanted to clear something up so Ustwo or anyone else doesn't wonder at apparent inconsistencies in my position. That is, there are a confluence of factors urging us to leave. Where I move to will be dictated by the worth of my degree. I specifically mentioned that when I used Australia as an example of a possible place.

It's not that I'm getting a degree in a low paying sector, but that my wage won't satisfy me in relation to the social conditions I live in (which are not limited to political factors, as much as people want to reduce these discussions to unidimensional analyses). And I specifically mentioned that the place I am native to, and would receive a very nice wage, and actually does share most of my social values (as if mine were developed in a vacuum and weren't a function of my environemnt, lol), is unfortunately the next most likely target for a catastrophe.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Ustwo

Didn't answer, I can only answer so many socialists, so please don't take a lack of response to indicate anything but a lack of response. Were I to give equal time to all posts I would not have time to do much else but post on this board . I'll be sure to give them a look.

I started to write a long winded response to each point you made, but I think you are aware of your own inconsistences. I don't think you know WHY you are leaving, its low pay, high pay, social services, whatever. I'll just remind you of the obvious, the grass is not always greener.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

aliali

Ohhhh, boy. Could not agree more, could not agree more. Has anyone been to an American University in the past 15 years? The intolerance, closed-mindedness, relentless sanctimonousness, and opinion management is unbelievable in academia. If this brainwashing works, I have concerns for America. Right now, I'm staying.

roachboy

comrades:

i wanted to apologize for the outburst yesterday in this thread.
not necessarily for the content,
but for allowing myself to post at a point where,
for reasons that i find a bit mysterious this morning,
the question at hand caught me in a space of particular emotional rawness.

particularly to those at whom i directed a particular sense of being-offended.

it is strange how smoothly one can slip from a sense of bearings linked to what is happening in the world around you in real time to one of massive telescoping.
stranger still to find yourself writing from the latter space and reading back through it the next day
for example.

because i think it forced a kind of particular and not necessarily constructive shift in the register in which folk were talking on the thread as a whole.

but i appreciated reading through this morning and finding folk willing to continue wrestling in the thread despite that.

one other point:

ustwo--
i was never under any illusion that the governing order in the states would line up with my particular politics. i have long been accustomed to working in a space of opposition. i do it in my professional life, in my work.

i think that what ultimately had/has me alarmed about this period is that i see a discourse shift to the right that would foreclose any meaningful space for continuing that work here.

from there, it is but a short leap to finding my sense of hope being undercut.

that is how it has gone.
that is my situation.
it does not operate on the basis of illusions about either the existence in the states of an actual left politics or about the electoral system and the pseudo-options it offers.

lebel, irate: i hope the above explains my reaction to your posts as well.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aliali

If Kerry is right of moderate, what is all this whining about? Would we be listening to all this garbage about leaving the country if he had won? He wasn't going to legalize gay marriage--he was against it; he wasn't going to repeal the patriot act or withdraw from Iraq.

You say the democrats want moderation, but the conservatives don't. I could just as easily say the liberals want a far left agenda, but republicans want to govern from the middle. There are several high-profile moderate pro-choice republicans. How middle of the road are the democratic leaders. Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton?

If your grandfather had been asked at the time of his service what was he fighting for, where on the list would he have mentioned gay marriage. I know, he would have said freedom and you think that included gay marriage. Did he or those serving with him?

You blame conservatives for the bans on gay marriage. Wake up. If Kerry had won, gay marriage would still have lost in every state. Every state. The so-called moderates and independants voted against it. That doesn't make a conservative a yahoo. The fact that a person supports the actual words of the constitution and the 2nd amendment does not make them a yahoo. It would seem to me that more people believe in dinosaurs now than when your grandfather or great-grandfather were in school.

You want out? Get out. I'm staying and I don't need your sympathy for my plight. The people who are fighting for this country right now, who are dying for this country right now, who are risking everything in their service to this country right now overwhelmingly support the current adminstration. Those that do deserve better than to be labeled as yahoos by you. Call them whatever you want, I'll be glad to have them back here when their job is done.

Ilow

To be more clear about Kerry's moderation he is SLIGHTLY to the right of moderate, if the lib.-conserv. scale went from 1-100, he would probably be a 54 or something. It goes without saying that he has had to moderate his position to compete with the Republicans on certain issues. The "whining" isn't because Kerry ran on a moderate platform, it's because Bush is decidedly right of conservative. So if Kerry had won it is likely that there would be less whining simply because his administration would have chosen a more moderate path; but we will never know. It's purely theoretical. With the current administration it is a proven fact that they do not want a moderate government--it is evident in their actions.

Gay marriage is an easy target. Many gay people are so used to being prejudiced against that avoiding trouble is a conditioned behavior. They will not fight back or look for trouble, life is hard enough for them in the first place. It so so easy to dismiss homosexuality as abberant that many people don't seem to consider rights for gays because they are not gay themselves. For all the conservative's bluster about upholding the constitution they conveniently forget that all Americans are entitled to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness"--even gay Americans. Although you correctly point out that more than just the Conservatives voted against gay marriage, the Republicans were nearly entirely united in their opposition to it, while the other parties were less unified. That's why I'm pointing the finger at what I see as the most egregious offenders. As for my grandfather, he was a open and progressive person and always looked for the good in people. I'm fairly certain that he would have seen gay people less as gay Americans, and more as just Americans.

As far as the 2nd Amendment goes, the last time I read it, the "actual words" were the "right to keep and bear arms." Unless there's a sub-amendement that I don't know about that says something about assault weapons. No one's coming to take all your guns away.
Rest assured, I have respect for most of our soldiers (except the lowlifes who are corrupted by power). The best thing that we can do to support them is not involve them in interests that are not directly necessary for the protection of our country.
Finally, I am not offering you sympathy. As far as I can tell, you are going into this with your eyes wide open.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

roachboy

you could say that, but you would be wrong.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

jonjon42

I myself will wait and see as the situation develops. I do wish to eventually leave and live in another country for awhile, but that is more because the particle accelerator at CERN and alot of other things their...make me drool. Of course that would be after I finish grad school...which at the moment seems like it will take forever.
Most likely I will be a thorn in the side of the neo-cons for quite a few years to come.

__________________
A damn dirty hippie without the dirty part....

Mephisto2

I find it interesting that many of this board's Bush supporters are now touting such nonesense as "Wave goodbye" or "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" etc...

One half of the electorate now feel disenfranchised (to a greater or lesser degree). Some of them are so disillusioned that they are now questioning whether America, the current America, America under Bush, the neo-con right-wing religiously pandering America is where they want to be.

That's entirely their right.

But ridiculing them because of it is not only inappropriate (especially on a board specifically for such discussions) but downright hypocritical. Many of the same Bush supporters on this board claimed such nonsense that there would be a civil war if Kerry won, that the nation would be torn asunder like nothing since the 1860's if Kerry won, boasted they threatened Kerry supporters with firearms, proudly stated that the left would ignore the Evangelical and right-wing voters at their peril and so on ad nauseum.

However, now we have another tune. Decidedly NOT magnanimous in victory, they now respond to simple opinions and statements of disappointment with insult. It is not the Kerry supporters who threatened civil war or spouted pompous philippics on how the end of American civilization was nigh. They have simply been disappointed and confused and, in some circumstances, driven to question their current lives in an America which now seems to hold ideals highly they cannot support.

The difference is notable. And the nastiness is tangible.

Mr Mephisto

socal

How can you fix the problem if you go to the land of high unemployment, taxes, bad healthcare.

If anyone would use that as a reason in isolation, they deserve to be there. The US will always keep Canada and Mexico suppressed.

aliali

The point is that democrat does not equal liberal and republican does not equal conservative. Mixing them (conservative vs. democrat or liberal vs. republican) doesn't make much sense.

aliali

It is not nonsense for one American to say Bye-Bye to another that either leaves the country or whines incessantly about leaving the country all because JFKerry is not president. There are pretty important elections every two years in this country. Win the next one, don't, leave the country, stay, all of these are fine.

I don't know who claimed a Kerry win would bring Civil War--I suppose there are crackpots who said just things, but aren't they crackpots who are worthy of a pointed response to such silliness if not outright ridicule?

The bye-bye response is not "love it or leave it." At least I am not saying you can't criticize or you have to be on the side of the administration. I am saying that simply packing up and leaving is not a valid criticism, it is not debate--it's whining--especially since almost no one is actually going that wasn't going anyway. You want to criticize actual things the administration is doing, that's fine. You want to whine and talk about leaving, I guess that's fine too, but to whine and then say its somehow nasty to respond with "go ahead and leave" is too much.

We all have our way of looking at things, but how do we get so self-assured and smart that we feel it's our perogative to complain, threaten, not do anything, and then call anyone who disagrees with us nasty and mean.

As to the nasty, who here can't taste and feel the nasty written over and over towards the current administation on these boards?

Ustwo

Yes thats nice, we enjoy outsider opinions of our political process

Yes I joke with you, I don’t even know what socialist nation you are from

First off if they are feeling 'disenfranchised' they don't understand the meaning of the word. I think they are being sore losers. The people spoke and the people told them no, and they are pouty about it. Bush has more of a majority % wise then any US democrat president since LBJ. Had the vote count been exactly opposite, they would be talking about the great mandate of the people and how reason triumphed and all that crap. They are acting irrational and quite frankly inviting ridicule. Personally I have little sympathy for anyone so distraught they speak of leaving the country, and I won’t miss anyone who does.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

let us take a moment to consider conservative-style ridicule.

i think it best embodied by the work of p.j. o'rourke, exemplar of what i like to call the "travelling cretin school".
in these works, the travelling cretin goes places, encounters situations, some of which are explained to him in detail.
but the travelling cretin has no truck with complexity, no truck with it at all.
the travelling cretin never assimilates information.
the travelling cretin never really interacts with his surroundings.
the travelling cretin works to make the world monotonous by imposing his fratboy sensibility on everything.
there is a way in which the travelling cretin never travels at all.

interactions usually follow this pattern:
t.c. encounters a situation he does not understand.
this is strange.
this is big.
i dont get it.
laugh at it.

so you have:
poverty in india...
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

political questions in the states...
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

let's think about this model in particular now.
in this thread, there are many posts that try to articulate, with varying degrees of success, what is at stake for folk who are considering leaving the country.
there is information presented----over and over----that falsifies every element in the "understanding" you see above for why people might consider leaving

here is an outline of the interaction with this information that you see embedded in the above:
this is strange.
this is big.
i dont get it.
better to distort what is going on.
then laugh at it.
ha ha ha ha ha ha.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aliali

Well, what is at stake for staying or leaving?

I see whining and complaining. I see people calling other people yahoos and acting like no one believes in Dinosaurs. I see someone who was going to leave anyway for economic reasons after finishing with a first class American education. I see someone wanting to go because they want the "freedom from feeling responsible for things which are just outside of my control (In a foreign land--not responsible for America or new place b/c not from there). I see someone thinking about a dual citizenship for a change of scenery. I see a complaint tha the country is simply already underwater. I see complaints about an America that is coming, but which isn't here and no basis is provided for the direness of the prediction.

How is one to respond to this stuff.

roachboy

you see what you want to see and nothing else.
i would think the motives are pretty clear beneath the surfaces of these posts.
whether you are inclined to look at them or not is a function of your predelections.
nothing to be done, like beckett said.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Mephisto2

First of all, I don't count one thread as "incessant".

You misunderstand what I believe the point of the thread was, and my response.

If people are feeling disappointed and want to ask each other (I doubt the question was aimed at Bush supporters) whether they should leave or stay, then they are entitled to do so.

However, for the "winners" to step in and say things like "Bye bye" or "don't let the door bang your ass on the way out" is just nasty. It's not conducive to the debate. It contributes nothing. It's insulting. It's nasty.

By all means argue. But why ridicule?


I try not to be nasty. I can't speak for anyone else.

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Erm... OK.

Well, seeing as I'm not from North Korea or China, I think that about rules out any of the remaining socialist countries in the world now, doesn't it?

I think your opinion is well known. When you have felt like ridiculing others on this board, my opinion has never stopped you.


Mr Mephisto

Manx

I think too much weight has been placed on some people "ridculing" others in this thread. You are only ridiculed if you feel offended. I am hardly offended by someone who, speaking to how I feel about the sad state of this country, offers a response of "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!"

It's a silly, useless response. Not that I didn't expect it. If that is the limit of their ability to empathize, I can't really give them my respect. So their childish viewpoint means essentially nothing to me. It's not ridicule, or mean or nasty of them. It's just a waste of bandwidth, which only becomes a problem if it consistently increases and goes unchecked.

Baron Opal

Same Shoe, Different Foot.

I've heard the name-calling before from both side of the political debate. When the Democrats won the House and Senate with Bill Clinton's first win, they proclaimed publicly that the conservatives had "better get out of the way, or be steamrolled over." Barbara Streisand warned that she would "leave the country" if the American people had the temerity to elect Bush Sr. There were concerns over the military with Carter. We survived. The political winds will shift, attitudes will change, and we will choose new leadership.

Leaving the country solely for the political outcome is foolish. For exploration or economy, that I see as reasonable.

Baron Opal

Hmm, my first post here, and its political. I'm taking after my parents it seems.

Lebell

Indeed.

Welcome aboard

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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irateplatypus

::sighs::

i really can't believe what i'm seeing here. a little good natured ribbing coming back the other way and it dominates a thread. try walking a mile in my shoes... you'd get blisters after 10 paces my friends. my buddy pan called me a hypocrite and a tool (by association) in another thread not too long ago... i know who i am, no harm done. pan, roachboy, smooth... they get spirited sometimes because they're sincere. like water off a duck's back now-a-days.

it's not silly or useless. it's not juvenile... it's just a lighthearted jab. you have appreciate that from most people's perspective, leaving after an election when you are guaranteed another shot at succes in 2 or 4 years is akin to that one kid in gradeschool who took his kickball home when he wasn't picked first for teams. whether that be a refusal to engage the world as roachboy proposes or a semi-successful attempt to bite your tongue at absurdity as i view it... it's not meant to be deep, or personal, empathetic or mean-spirited. it's just a quick pop to the shoulder to get a reaction.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Manx

And you got my reaction. Your and others good natured ribbing, or whatever you'd like to call it, doesn't come across as good natured. Whether it is ribbing makes no matter to me. It was useless. That much is certain.

Mephisto2

Well, that's a fair enough comment. I guess it just seems to me that the barbs are just a little too sharp.

Anyway, no real harm done. It's not as if any of you are insulting me!

Mr Mephisto

shakran

As far as insults go, I can personally take being told I'm full of it, or that I'm delusioned, or whatever else the neo-cons want to say about me.

For their part, i think the staunch conservatives like Ustwo can take whatever I throw at them too.

We ARE adults here. We all survived Jr. high school. I'm pretty sure we got tortured worse then than we ever will here.

aliali

I see and read what is here. I'm trying to see us focus on some issues rather than irrational doomsaying. What do you think my motives are?

As to whether any ridicule is o.k. towards those who are now threating to leave, Beckett did say that nothing is funnier than unhappiness.

aliali

It's on more than one thread and it started before the election.

People are entitled to ask each other whether they should leave or stay, but shouldn't be surprised that a lot of people who agree with them politically and who don't will take issue with the notion of leaving just because of this election.

I am decidedly not a winner in this election--I am a big loser as a result of the outcome--both in my beliefs and the practical implications of what is going to happen because of my candidates losing. I'm still saying "bye-bye." If I'm going to have any allies in fighting against the things that are going to happen that I disagree with, I won't be looking for the whiners and the "I'm taking my ball and moving to Canada" crowd.

Maybe "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out" isn't the most productive thing to say, but I don't see the issue debate in "I'm sad and I'm leaving."

I don't think you have been nasty at all Mr. M, but others have on both sides. Let's just call if fair.

roachboy

believe me, i have no a priori problem with ridicule. either issuing or recieving.
but i figure that it is not equally appropriate in all contexts.
that's all.

as for what you are reading--well, from your viewpoint maybe this is irrational.

i suspect that i would find most of your politics irrational as well. in fact, given that i find nationalism to be a form of collective mental disorder, you can be sure of it.

what i think folk were trying to explain are some of the reasons why the question of leaving or not in the face of the present state of affairs is being considered.
given that, it really makes no difference whether you or anyone else finds those reasons inaccessible or how you choose to spin that inaccessibility.
it really doesnt.

i think it was not unreasonable to expect that others would recognize and respect that, but apparently in some cases that was assuming too much.
what i did expect is that folk who disagree would at least choose not to be clods about it.
as it turns out some were not, some, including youself, were--and personally, i misinterpreted a couple (irate in particular)--it is how things sometimes go in the alienated space (platonic sense) of a message board.

much past that, i do not see the point of trying to persuade you to think about posts that you are not apparently willing to take seriously.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aliali

I've been thinking about it and trying to react honestly to this entire thread. I will probably be impacted more negatively than the overwhelming number of people by this election. I am willing to discuss any legitimate reason for leaving the country because of it, but I don't see a reason for all of the doomsaying, hopelessness, dispair, and disrepect. I don't mind being called a clod, but doesn't that meet our current standards for being nasty?

I don't read a whole lot of discussion here involving the actual reasons for leaving now and because of the election (your earlier post did have some listed, but no one is writing about that), I see a lot of complaining and complaining about the complaining.

I'd be happy to discuss anyones reasons for talking about leaving. Yours include the America you see coming re: prison rates, social violence, and intolerance and others. I agree with some of those thoughts, disagree with others, but think that talk of leaving the country is a little high-pitched and unproductive. If that makes me a clod or nationalistic, sorry.

If you want people to really seriously see these things as reasons to pack up, shouldn't the arguments be fleshed out a little bit?

roachboy

when i get back in a few days, i'll post a response....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pedro padilla

I´m a 40 year old American living in Spain for the last 14 years. I spent election night this year on a rare business trip to Chicago. Where the hell were all these Bush supporters that supposedly live there? Everyone, everywhere I was at hate the man and everything he´s doing to their country. I live in Spain because I love it. I didn´t move here to escape America. Though I might do so now if I was still there.
I still love America and the and the ideals it was founded on. I don´t believe the Bush administration represent these ideals anymore than I believe the moon is green cheese. If you are one of these articulate, supposedly intelligent suckers falling for the propaganda shoveled down your throats, I hope you or your children are not of age for the draft. Luck and sympathy. Glad I already have an apartment over here in hippie peacenik old Europe.

joeshoe

Heh, I wonder why Canada even want to attract Americans. I would expect them to be watching their borders more carefully now...

aliali

It could be that those who voted for Bush went on with their lives and didn't fly to Chicago to bitch about the president. Actually, it is because Chicago was a very, very blue area and the president didn't get many votes there. But you knew that.

You also know that the terrorists wanted JFKerry to win or, more to the point, Bush to lose. While they were able to get their way in Spain--just had to kill a bunch on innocents to get their way there--their influence didn't work the same way here. I'll glad you like Spain--it's number one on my list of where I want to visit next, but I don't need your sympathy for living here.

pedro padilla

I believe you´re mistaken. Bush is the biggest gift ever to radical terrorist factions. He sends them thousands of new recruits every week. The people here threw out Aznar based on a well founded belief that his extremely unpopular alliance with GW´s neocon admin. was a direct cause of the Madrid attacks. Don´t bother visiting. I really don´t think you´d like it here.

sprocket

This is commonly spouted by the anti-war crowd, like its a stone cold fact. How exactly is Bush sending thousands of fresh recruits to terrorist orginazations? Wheres your proof? Simply assuming thousands of terrorists are being "created" is fantasizing at best.

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Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Ustwo

Just outside Chicago where I live.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ilow

Even if Bush's presidency just "created" one, it would be one more than Ashcroft convicted.

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"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris