11-29-2004, 12:49 PM | #121 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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of course, I've seen a picture of you, and anyone can see a picture of me. (so I don't get to pick and choose my ancestral heritage)
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-29-2004, 12:52 PM | #122 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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EDIT: both you and lebell focused on the very minor point of what I was stating. It isn't, "I was here first, you leave" It was, "those of who came here out of religious persecution, don't tell the people who were already here to leave when they don't agree with your values"
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 11-29-2004 at 01:02 PM.. |
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11-29-2004, 01:10 PM | #123 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Actually, the point I was making is that is irrelevant whose ancestors were here first, you personally were not here "first".
Nor do I see people who came here out of religious persecution (which, btw, was not usually because they were more liberal, but because they were different than the established state religion) telling you to "leave". What I see is people saying that if you are unhappy here and want to leave, then leave. Several more of us are saying that this is a silly thing to leave your country over. I have not seen anyone in this thread saying, "America: love it or leave it".
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
11-29-2004, 06:53 PM | #124 (permalink) | |||
Banned
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Since so many here question the validity of US media, here's something from the BBC: "Spanish voters rejected the Popular Party three days after the attacks, even though it had led the opinion polls in the weeks leading up to the election." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3560561.stm While it may be true that a majority opposed his war stance, they couldn't have been too "vehement," judging from the election results. Quote:
They can practically wade over, but they arrive with nothing and have no qualms with forcing the locals to "donate" to them. In addition, Moroccans are well known to be a major conduit for bringing drugs into Spain. It's also worthy of note that most of the train bombing suspects are Moroccans. Quote:
Last edited by sob; 11-29-2004 at 06:58 PM.. |
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11-30-2004, 08:07 PM | #125 (permalink) |
Insane
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point by point.
1. El Pais, (leading Spanish newspaper) showed Aznar at 30 to Zapateros 70 about 2 weeks before elections. This is taking to account the fact that Spanish polls are notorious for being conducted in upper class districts. El Periodico put Aznar at 40 to 60. La Vanguardia said he was lucky if he could wrap up 40%. No, the polls did not come out in his favor. Sorry BBC is UK. This is Spain. 2. Your American son and all his American pals in Madrid do not mean shit. Didnīt they get the hint? Americans are way more hated than anyone else on this continent. Your sons 4 week Spanish fiesta probably consisted of overpriced rotgut sangria in typical tourist bars which (surprise) attract the sleaziest and most desperate kind of Morrocans. Your son? Everyone he knew hated... Yeah, Iīm sure thats true. McTourist. or should I say McRacist? 3.If you can accept 2nd hand uninformed info concerning a country you personally know absolutely nothing about, you should really get pissed off at the rest of the world for being so accurately informed about the arrogant ignorance being spewed by worldly scholars such as yourself. unadulterated crap. Yeah, That pretty much sums it up. You best school you self, fool. |
11-30-2004, 10:18 PM | #126 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Sob and Pedro. Cut out the sarcasm and personal comments or face a temp ban. You guys aren't rookies and don't have the excuse of not knowing better.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
11-30-2004, 10:24 PM | #127 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Southpark, Colorado
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Here is my non-paritison answer to the question. If you are unhappy about the way the country is going get involved. No changes will ever happen if you just leave and give up altogether. That's weak in my opinion. Either party that would choose to retreat rather than stand and fight are weak. So if you are a democrat or republican who's unhappy about the way the country is going, then voice your opinion. The country needs diversity so that we can continue to grow and better suit the needs of everyone.
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If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic. - Jack Handy |
12-01-2004, 12:07 AM | #128 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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Personally, I disregard polls once the election results are in. I don't plan on posting any quotes in Spanish, so I'll therefore be limited to English ones, even if you don't like them. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe...ain.elections/ "With 99 percent of ballots counted, the opposition Socialists were ahead slightly with 34.7 percent to 33.9 percent for Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's Popular Party. It was the first time since 1991 that the Socialists won more votes than the Popular Party in local elections. But it was only a slight gain for the opposition over 1999 results, and only a slight decline for Aznar's party, which held on to the mayor's seat in Madrid as well as control of Valencia and smaller cities and towns in central Spain." http://www.economist.com/displayStor...ory_id=1817707 "Only 200,000 votes out of more than 23m cast separated the two main parties. The PP was a single percentage point down on its previous election showing in local and regional elections, in 1999, with 34% of the vote to the Socialists' 35%. Looking on the bright side, Mr Aznar declared that his party now has more mayors and more local councillors than any other. His PP not only held its old bastions but even stormed a few more, such as Burgos and Granada. It did well in Valencia. In Galicia, whose coastline was besmirched by the Prestige's oil, the PP got 41.5%, only four points less than in 1999. The party's biggest swoop was on Madrid's city hall, where Mr Aznar's wife, Ana Botella, number three on the PP's slate, will now make her political début. The mayor-elect, the able and ambitious Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon, though not close to the prime minister, has suddenly emerged as the PP's new star. Indeed, he is already being talked about as a possible replacement for Mr Aznar when he steps down from the top job, as promised, before the general election." So I'm having difficulty with this statement: Quote:
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My son learned Spanish from birth. All of his friends in Spain were Spanish, except for one American exchange student. Spaniards were unable to detect from his speech that he is American. In fact, at parties, he enjoyed it when someone he didn't know would say, after talking to him for a few minutes, "I hear there's an American here." His response was usually, "There is? Let's go find him." He was routinely accused of bullshitting when he told people he was from the US, during the year he lived there. Additionally, while my son was in Spain, I was hosting a student from Madrid. For a year. That was helpful when I started making some very adrenaline-charged phone calls the day I turned on the news and saw the Madrid train bombing results. I guess this student (and his mother, for that matter) are also racists, because they didn't like muggers and drug dealers, either. Since I see very little in your response other than personal attacks, I'd be interested to hear you mention how these Moroccans, who sneak into Spain with essentially nothing, are able to support themselves, since they're not citizens, and therefore can't legally be employed. I can tell you what my son observed: (1) They sell pirated DVDs on the Metro. (2) They mug people on the Metro (my son observed one mugging, and his American friend, a rather large kid, kicked the asses of five Moroccans who tried to mug him. As luck would have it, he broke one of their jaws, so this particular one got arrested at the hospital.) (3) They sell drugs. Okay, I'll qualify that. A LARGE NUMBER of them do. Quote:
So to wrap this up, every news source that reported on the elections contradicts your statement about the popularity of Aznar. If you have any information about how well-loved the Moroccans are in Spain, I'd love to see it. If you want to stick with your other personal attacks/name calling, and assertions about my "arrogant ignorance," fire away. I don't believe they helped your case, whatever it was. |
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12-01-2004, 07:24 AM | #129 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: Gor
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=124 To Tarl Cabot and others, Please PM the mod if you have a question like this. -lebell Last edited by Lebell; 12-01-2004 at 10:06 PM.. |
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12-01-2004, 09:37 AM | #130 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Interesting Iberian Update
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-01-2004, 06:01 PM | #131 (permalink) |
Insane
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1. actually if Aznar had been running it would have been close. The PP, popular party ran his succesor, Rajoy, an extremely bellicose, elitist and very uncharismatic politician. The vote in Spain was the lowest turnout since Franco died. Only 77% of the eligible voters showed up. All time low. Pathetic ainīt it.
2. Your son surely speaks better Spanish than I do but I donīt talk English too good neither. His experience in Spain, good or bad as it was, canīt really have been anything but a spanish speaking Americans brief impression. No matter where youīre from, 1 year in a foreign country is far too little time to be any sort of authority. Generally the Morroquis that enter Europe through Espaņa do the shit work that the Spanish donīt want. Picking fruit. Washing dishes. Lots and lots of illegal plentiful construction work. Dangerous scaffolding 6 floors up. 600 bucks a month. 12 hours a day. The Arabs and Pakistanis flipped when they learned I was an American lugging buckets of cement all day. But. I didnīt have work papers either and I had to eat. Basically they do what the latin Americans are doing in your neighborhood. Working 2 shit jobs you donīt want, living with 8 people in a 2 bdrm. apt. and sending money home to support family. and 1. DVDs and CDs are total Chinese Mafias. They hire some Pakistanis for the streetsales but no, definately not an Arab scam. 2. Iīve seen quite a few muggings in my time in many parts of the world. Especially in America. That must mean most muggers are American. 3. They sell drugs. I know. I buy them. Best hashish in the world round here. Iīd only be upset if they sold garbage. Vodka tonic for you and a joint for me. Cannibis is not a real heavy concern of most informed folk. Itīs also worthy of noting that almost all the 9/11 bombers were Saudis. Yet Bush went after Iraq. So anyway if Aznar had been running he might have won. I doubt it. It was nonetheless a pretty obvious rejection of his partys politics. Iīd be interested to see what you can show me about the general dislike of Morrocans here. Apart from your well spoken spanish son and his friends. I think maybe you should realize that reading the UK press and analyzing the figures really does not give you any sort of understanding of a country and the mindset. Shit, sure wouldnīt work for the US would it? Te deseo mucho suerte. |
12-01-2004, 08:06 PM | #132 (permalink) | ||||||
Banned
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I don't want to beat the Moroccan topic to death, but my exchange student shared his opinion. I'll just leave it by saying that when my son was coming back from a party or club on the Metro after 2 a.m., he avoided groups of Moroccans, due to what he'd witnessed. Maybe your area is better--he wasn't in the best part of Madrid, by any means. Also, he experienced no anti-Americanism. I had told him to avoid talking politics. Most of the people he met were more interested in hearing him talk about life in southern California than in talking about Bush. I take that back--he had an English class, and the teacher didn't like him, because the teacher's English wasn't very good. So score one for anti-Americanism. Quote:
When I worked construction, I got tired of lugging buckets of cement, and managed to move up to cement finisher. Much easier. Quote:
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1. Get a secure holder for your money and passport, because there are a lot of pickpockets (as I said, my son forgot that once too often). 2. Stay away from the Moroccans, because if you get caught with hashish, the penalties are severe. That was all it took to make me dislike Moroccans--While I have no problem with your lifestyle in regard to hash, I did not want to fly over to try to get my son out of jail. 3. Stay away from the gypsies. 4. Don't make the "okay" sign with your thumb and forefinger. :-) Quote:
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12-01-2004, 08:22 PM | #133 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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12-01-2004, 08:51 PM | #134 (permalink) |
You're going to have to trust me!
Location: Massachusetts
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I've seen this article, I actually have it in my AIM profile. Canada is lookin damn good right about now. All I need's a good canadian girl to marry and then I can move to Canada!
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We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher |
12-01-2004, 10:08 PM | #135 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Thanks for redeeming the thread, fellas
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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fight, leave |
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