Publius

I saw this arcticle on CNN today and it got me to thinking, if you are one of those upset about the Kerry loss (or about the direction our country is taking in general) would you if you could find a way leave the US ? And if so why? It seems Canada is now recruiting

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html

roachboy

i am still debating this question.
and i havent decided yet,
because i thought the decision would be easier to take beforehand than it is now---maybe because i did not think bush could possibly get re-elected, so it floated about as an abstraction.
my only coherent response so far has been to start working on my own stuff again with greater intensity, figuring that everything i do can be seen as a fuck you to the way things are at the moment. but that is not really enough to keep me here.

so i am still processing.
but would be interested in how others are processing it, if they are.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

smooth

My wife and I have been looking at New Zealand or Australia for some time now. We are waiting until after our Ph.D.'s are completed, however.

At least one other person I know stated that since he's a "white dude, he wants to take back his country" so he's staying.

Of course, I let the irony smolder for a second as he contemplated that he had just said that to a native

One of our primary concerns is climate and another is water. Canada is really too cold for me even though it's criminology seems to be top-notch. Australia, as a former penal colony, might be more interested in my background and standpoint.

But those islands, like what I understand is happening around Europe, seem to be moving rightward. I don't know if either of those statements are accurate, just what I've been able to gather from my limited understanding of the internal politics of other nations.

For example, I notice Australia's current support for our foreign policies and that NZ's economic policies are in agreement with the Washington Consensus. But we have a couple of years to figure it out.

We are definately moving, however. This has more to do with economics than political persuasion. As in, I'm not hateful or even mindful of Bush as a singular person so much as I am disgusted with the course and structure of our nation. Even if I were a democrat and had faith in their abilities or desires to alter the structural problems I think about, I don't believe that they could fix them.

Plus, given that the symbol of global capitalism has been torn down, I don't see any reason that the symbol of global culture here in Los Angeles wouldn't be next. Also, given the concentration of military establishments in Southern California, we don't appear to be in a very safe place in any one location. I mean, it's just ludicrous to me to think that something, sometime, won't happen within the coming decades.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Manx

I'm working on it. I've wanted to live outside the U.S. again for a couple of years now, but the right opportunity hasn't yet materialized. The election has given me incentive to look harder.

The thing is this - I lived outside the U.S. for a few years in the early 90's. What I found is a sense of freedom that I've never felt here. The freedom from feeling responsible for things which are just outside of my control. Like the political direction of the country. Living in another culture, I no longer care about what the U.S. does or does not do. Which is as it should be, seeing as how I can't stop the U.S. from doing it. At the same time, I don't feel responsible for the culture I am "visiting". It's not my culture, I can look at it, smile or frown at it, but ultimately I view it with interest as opposed to ownership.

Why I can't do that here in the States, I don't know. That is how it should be.

I have some friends and contacts in a few European countries, so that's where I'm focused right now.

But damn if New Zealand wouldn't be fucking sweet. St. Barts is on my list too.

daswig

Wave "Buh-Bye" with a big ole smile on my face.

Lebell

If a person can't see past honest difference and has so little pride in their country that they would leave because they lost an election, then I would say to them to not let the door hit them in the rump on the way out.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

irateplatypus

there are plenty of reasons to live abroad... but leaving your home because of an election when you have a brand new crack at winning in just 4 years is some weak sauce.

i'm interested... what percentage of people who said they were going to leave if Bush is elected actually will? what percentage of people who have decided since the election will do it? how many will come back in a short period of time?

half of me wants to say "don't let the door hit you on the way out"... but the other half is thinking "i hope the door hits you on the way out."

jk folks.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Locobot

I'm sure everyone's reasoning is more complex than *just* losing an election. My S.O. and I are looking at teaching English in Thailand, which probably wouldn't be a permanent move, but would provide the distance and insulation we feel we need from the U.S.

There's always the possibility that some foreigner will want to marry an American. Cred. Dan Savage for link, pretty funny. Some of those are just silly, some seem legit.

tempting!

damn! tempting

Manx

daswig, lebell, irate - funny, it feels so much more like I'm waving goodbye as you sink with the ship.

aliali

You'll spend a long time waving.

Manx

It's already under water.

The good news is, the administration is now stating that water is really the same thing as air. So you should be all good.

Jimellow

If I were drafted, I would fight.

Not so much because I am angry about Kerry losing the election, but instead because it would be a new opportunity for me, and something that I would take pride in.

Being in college now, and not sure what I'm doing afterwards, I've actually considered the armed forces, but not seriously..

However, if drafted, I would certainly fight. Sure, there is a risk of death, but providing I lived, I think it would be a very rewarding and educational experience. Plus, I take advantage of what this country offers me, so it only makes sense to serve it when requested.

aliali

Who said that, Powell? Well, in any event, they must be right, I'm still breathing.

MSD

I'd never run from an honestly elected president (until there's evidence that he wasn't, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.) I had already considered moving up to an area outside of Toronto for a while with a friend or two, just for the change in scenery. It wouldn't bother me to have dual citizenship, either. Canada was a nice place to visit, so when I move out of my mom's house for good, some of the places I look at might be there.

Now if you asked me to pick a home based on Starbucks versus Tim Horton's, I'd make a run for the border.

Paq

I have always thought of living abroad for a time in my life, just wasn't sure what would help push it...

While i'm not happy with the election results, i must say that I would not completely move out of the country bc a man i don't agree with is running the country...HOWEVER, as stated by some other people, i am not exactly pleased with the direction the country is taking as i have never been one for conservative christian values (if i believe the polls and fox news)...So, maybe this is the perfect time to teach and study in another country...I gotta say, though..canada isn't for me...too freaking cold...

__________________
Live.

Chris

roachboy

lebell, irate:

i want to thank you for the display of senstivity, for your willingness to engage seriously with questions that deeply affect some of the folk on this board--you know, members of your community--the word you like to throw around when you talk about tfp as such.
you have to be pretty naieve (or willfully so) to imagine that what is at stake is the re-election of bush to a second term in itself. but whatever.

it is as a result of bigger problems, that go well beyond the bush-ites in themselves, that people including myself wonder if they are watching the place they were born commit a form of ritual suicide.

to this your response is little more than "huh?"

it is in response to a sense of what these problems mean that people, including myself, are trying to figure out if they can stay in the place where they were born under such conditions and you say "dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

way to go.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

http://www.helpthemleave.com/

Really if you think America isn't for you, please, enjoy life elsewhere, I'd hate for anyone to suffer needlessly.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

it is **your**america that is not for me, ustwo.
nothing to do with america per se.
you have no monopoly on the place.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

shakran

I'll echo that. Ustwo would love for us to leave because then he wouldn't HAVE to preach the bullshit that the neo cons are using to trick people into agreeing with them - the neo cons would be the only ones left.

I'd not leave just because I disagree with the president. I stayed through Reagan didn't I? If, however, they tried to draft me for this war, which is an immoral, illegal, and unconscionable war, then hello Canada. Not that it would be an issue since I'm a bit to old for the draft, but if it came up I would refuse to aid the country in an unjust war.

tecoyah

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

bravoroads

i dont know whats going on here , but if you didnt see what was coming when bush got elected then you dont know squat, but we all have our own ideas about this country, but if you are really thinking about leaving the us just b/c your man didnt get into office, thats bad, thats saying your not proud to be an american, when clinton won did anybody leave b/c he won, no, but as soon as some hollywood stars say if bush wins then i am leaving the u.s. come on people lets get real here. your going to let some movie star who lives better then most of us influence you on leaving the u.s. all in all lets not be losers and walking away from a problem. think twice about what country you live in, ok so things arent going the way you want, then you run for president ok oh dont forget clinton ran away too, so i guess its ok then

Ustwo

My vision for America just happened to win a rather major election. Had Kerry won, I'd have been disappointed but I would not be pouting about the nation, as I have some degree in faith in the basic systems in place. Its not my side of the debate talking about '2 Americas' and its not my side attempting to classify Americans as anything but American.

America is designed to have a peaceful revolution every four years. Its where we all get to give a vote of yea or nay to the current parties, and people that make them up. With the cast of a vote a 20 year political figure is just a foot note. The system works in this regard.

To me, Americans having problems with America, and thinking of leaving, are either having a problem with the system, the people, or their emotions. If you are having a problem with the system, you are a revolutionary, I have no time for people who wish to change the system of government. If you are having a problem with the people, you are a totalitarian, and believe your views are more important then the majority. Most I think are just having problems with their emotions. They are so worked up about issues most of them really have little knowlage about that its easier to talk about leaving then dealing with the rejection of what they thought of as their ideals.

The first two groups I want to leave. They have no place in America as I see it. The third, the depressed, will calm down and get over it and get back to being 'American'. They get another shot in 4 years.

Edit: I had to change 2 diapers, take a phone call, and call my wife asking about when my 5 week old just ate, fatherhood is fun

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

adam

I'm not going anywhere. I intend to be a thorn in the ass of conservatives for years to come.

roachboy

let me explain something before i check out of this thread.

most of the people i know who were really effected by this election were and are well to the left of kerry--myself included. such support for kerry as there was was of an "anybody but bush" character.

most of the people i know who are in a position like i am in understood clinton for what he was--a dlc-style democrat, a centrist whose entire political agenda was shaped by "triangulation"--that is by co-opting moderate republican issues. the right's contentions that clinton was otherwise are obvious nonsense: they they have any credence is a good index of why the right is, so far as i am concenred, dangerous. for themselves as much as for others.

clinton was an unabashed cheerleader for globalizing capitalism, as are the neocons. the difference between them is that the neocons felt clinton insufficiently nationalist. they have no objection to globalizing capitalism either--they just want to see the american military appratus sitting atop it. whence the opposition to multi-lateral accords. whence gamble of the war in iraq--and i have to say that if it had gone as wolfowotz dreamed it would, maybe the gamble would have worked. but it didnt.

the contry has been veering right since before reagan. the veering to the right has accelerated, picking up by now an extra level of refusal to engage with complexity at any register as a function of assimilating fundamentalist protestant styles of rheotirc into its dicourse.

the america i see coming is one of intolerance and closed-mindedness, a space of relentless sanctimonousness, a space of total opinion management that veils itself as democracy.

the america i see coming will have no way to deal with the social problems the economic system that it has no choice but to treat as an unqualified good unfold within it.

the america i see coming will respond to those social problem with violence.

the america i see coming will be good for elements of the prison-industrial complex (a term i am not fond of, but which groups things) and few others.

the america i see coming will not be able to think critically about itself and the various phases of its decline because it is already choosing to live in fantasy.

the america i see coming is a place not terribly unlike this one insofar as the folk who hold significant economic power will be able to do exactly as they want, without political consequences, because the populace will be occupied with trivial matters.

but most of all the america i see coming will be about violence. mindless, self-inflilcted, self-perpetuating violence. wrapped in the flag, wrapped in patriotism, defining "undesirable" elements out of "america" until maybe there will only be a few "real americans" left, hunkered down in basement bunkers with their arsenals and canned food waiting for helter skelter.

this does not make me happy. i lived overseas for 5 years and found that i was never more american than when i wasnt here. not in ways that i necessarily could control either. but i never left intending not to come back. this would be different. and that is why it is really difficult.

all that said, i still find it difficult simply to leave. mostly because it would be capitulation to an ideology i find to be beneath contempt, giving over in a small way the place that despite all my ambivalences, is still my home. in which, at some probably irrational level, i had some kind of hope.

but as the hope dwindles away so does any real reason to stay here.



an appended side note: i wonder if this board is still around in a few years i might run across this post and wonder why i was such a drama queen about this. from here or somewhere else, i'll have figured all this out by then.

i also am figuring out that it is not good to post anything too directly emotional, or about anything that is too directly emotional, in places like this, no matter what the folk who participate in them like to think of them.
that too is sad.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

Well needless to say I completely disagree with your assessment, but that in itself doesn't matter as such is untestable except with time.

What matters is the above line. You have to know you are in a tiny minority, and a powerless one at that in America. We don't want a far left government, which should be abundantly clear by now. In your lifetime you will not see an America which fits your vision. This is just a simple fact I don't think many would disagree with.

For you, if you want a government more towards your liking, leaving might not be a bad option. This is not tongue in cheek, but an honest feeling.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I joke about moving to Peru with friends and I suppose occasionally on the board, but when bush comes to shove (that's MY phrase...I coined that one) I will fight and die for old glory, my family, and my constitution. Those who leave because Bush won have that right. I don't see myself as able to judge them until I have made the decision to defend instead of run. If, for example, the constitutionally protected rights are taken or broken by the government, I would like to think that I would stand up and shout. Unfortunatally that time may have come and gone. The blurring of the lines made the first shot in this supposed war very difficult to hear with all of the background noise.

All rants aside, I'm sticking around for round 44 (44th president). It will be intersting to see if the Bush family virus is still able to latch onto the big seat in the oval office.

As far as coined phrases, I would like to be the first to call it the ovum office, if Hillary wins. Not that I'm anti women president - I would have votes for MRS. Dole, or MRS. Edwards for that matter - but the jokes will have to come.

tecoyah

I would like to note a few observations:

Yes it is sad that "feelings" must be kept in check on this board. That is an attempt to get us through this time of enflamed emotions, and has been relatively successful.

It was only after I had to intervene that respect returned to this discussion, had we decided to show such in the first place, this would have been avoided.

I find it ....unfortunate....that the people I have come to rely on as major contributors to this board, feel the need to disrespect each other, but I can understand the reasons. That said, I request that we all understand the needs of each side to be heard, and phrase our response accordingly.

Please guys.....it is hard enough to keep this forum in check , without losing the very stability built into it by our long standing members. I would appreciate your support in keeping this area civil....and keeping those who make the this board....active.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

shakran

Look, I'm all about civility, but I'm also all about calling a pig a pig. The neo cons change their story every five minutes (there are WMD's. There aren't WMD's. We're gonna get bin Laden. Bin Laden? I'm not worried about bin Laden. We're gonna win the war on terror. There's no way to win the war on terror. Well when I said there's no way to win the war on terror (to Matt Lauer on Today, btw) what I really meant was that we're gonna win the war on terror - YOU misinterpreted me. We know where the WMD's are, near Baghdad and Tikrit. We don't know where the WMD's are and hey! We don't even know where the conventional explosives are. Major combat operations have ended, oh and by the way over a thousand soldiers are about to die in (i guess) "minor" combat operations. The economy is strong. Hey, we need to raise the cap on the debt or we'll default on our loans.) Getting the picture? This administration is, has been, and will continue to preach nothing but bullshit because unfortunately for them, almost half of the country isn't buying into their story. Only if those of us who can see right through them leave the country can they stop wasting time trying to snow us and start working toward what they want to work toward. So I stand by my original statement - they'd LOVE for us to leave. It'd free them up to do whatever they want without worrying about anyone checking on them.

Civility or not, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is not a swan.

martinguerre

i'll suck the teat of higher education a bit longer, and then i'll choose where to live. my deliberations will include my hometown of Minneapolis, a few of the major metro areas of the US, and a few places abroad.

it won't be over one election...but i really think it is important to choose where you want to make your contribution to the world.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

tecoyah

This entire statement would mean so much more....had it been started with one simple line...........


IN MY OPINION

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

shakran

why? Of course it's in my opinion. Everything stated here is the opinion of its author.

Well except for the stuff I put in parentheses. All that actually happened and is therefore fact.

And since that's fact, then the idea that the administration is changing its story while denying that it is changing its story is also fact.

And since denying something that you know to be true is a lie, the administration is lying

And as we all know, another way of saying "he's lying through his teeth to you" is to say "he's bullshitting you."

So, actually, the only part of my statement that was opinion was the last two sentences.

And really, that last sentence could go either way.

tecoyah

You seem to miss the point of my reply.

It would be benefitial to all here...if we would set a new tone, one which makes it CLEAR, that statements are of a certain opinion. Rather than telling someone they are wrong, or this is the truth. All truths are subjective, and can therefore be considered opinion. Unfortunately, not all here accept this as relative to a debate, and this is where the flaming begins.

My hope is.....we all begin to listen to each other....rather than bitching. Not agreeing....just listening, and replying with some level of respect.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

shakran

No, all truth is not subjective or opinion. The sun will rise tomorrow. That is a truth. It is not an opinion or subjective.

The administration has changed its story many times. That is a truth. It is not subjective. It is not an opinion. They first said they wanted to get bin Laden. Then they said they didn't care about getting bin Laden. That is a 180 degree flip (flop) from their previous position. A change of statement that large can not subjectively or any other way be considered to not be a change any more than black can subjectively become white. There are many other instances of them changing their opinion, far too many to go into again in this thread.

I see where you are coming from. You don't want us to say things that others might take offense at because that could degenerate the discussion into yet another flame war.

However, if, in order to avoid flame wars, we must avoid the truth at all costs lest we offend someone with overly delicate sensibilities, then there is no point to having a discussion at all.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes the truth pisses people off, but that is frankly too bad. Sometimes the truth is more important than shielding people from anger.

Ilow

Roachboy, thank you for your heartfelt and sensible musings. OK, I guess I'm going to have to keep saying this until the Conservatives pay attention--Kerry was not left wing, far-left, or ultra liberal. In fact he is actually slightly to the right of purely moderate. (check www.politicalcompass.org yourself)

The vast majority of Democratic supporters do not want a left wing government they would settle for a moderate one. The problem is that a great many Conservatives feel that far, far right is the new center so the actual moderate position must be just over the horizon. Until this ridiculousness is sorted out there will never be an end to the current acrimony.

Like Smooth, I am also finishing my Doctorate and will therefore be tied to the United States for a couple more years. I feel as if it is both a blessing and a curse. As much as i feel uncomfortable about having less freedom to roam, I figure the proof of this administration's puddings taste will be abundantly clear by then, at which time I can make a thought out decision. If I come to feel that this country no longer has a place for me then I will begin a systematic search of possible new homes, probably starting with Australia etc. but we'll have to see.

I have to say, as an Independant this entire situation is indeed very sad for me. I would have never predicted 12 years ago when I began voting that there would be no place left for moderates and that i would be actually considering leaving this country. I have my (veteran) Grandfather's flag hanging over my bed, and it kills me that the things that his generation fought for are being undermined because of yahoos who can't stand the idea of: not owning Uzis, letting gay people marry, or believing in Dinosaurs.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Lebell

roachboy,

I truthfully fail to see why you are surprised and offended.

Constantly I read things on this board that disparage my country and my president and the choices I've made in the last election and I'm supposed to let those slide and maintain a polite demeanor. I can't even begin to tell you how old it is when people use terms like "Bushies" and "Bushites" when refering to those that think differently than them. I have also seen more than a little melodramaticism regarding Bushes re-election, when history has shown that America has gone through much worse and survived just fine.

As to you leaving the country, what do you want from me? Sympathy? Empathy?

I'm sorry, but I have neither.

If you and others want to give up your citizenship and leave over something that in the greater scheme of things is a minor bump, that's your perogative, but don't expect me to feel bad for you.

And please be assured, I would have said the same thing to any republican that voiced the same thoughts after Clinton was elected to his second term.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

tecoyah

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

irateplatypus

well... if my door closing comments hurt any feelings... well, i'm sorry feelings were hurt from a personal standpoint. however, try spending a month or so in the shoes of a genuinely sincere conservative on this board... i know it's only an online bulletin board, but i've had to toughen my own skin a bit. considering what is too-often usual fare... it's hard for me to be very empathetic.

i think that it's just too hard for a lot of people to take seriously the feeling that someone is so despondent about the state of the nation that they feel the best course of action is to leave. in fact, my brainwashed sheeplike lockstep military mentality tells me that there are worse things than going down with a ship if it is indeed sinking. i see a challenge for our country. i see exciting, turbulent, dynamic and dangerous times. this is when the fight for justice in the next century is being fought. my nation isn't perfect, but i love the things she stands for. political correctness be damned, the United States is the greatest good the world has yet seen when she is true to her founding principles. we've been blessed with untold resources and given unprecedented responsibility. jumping ship will not change that.

for all that love our Constitution and believe that we can do good with all we've been given, it's beyond my comprehension why someone would choose to leave when so much is at stake. perhaps it is my military voice speaking... but i feel dutibound to do what i can to promote the good i see and the judicious application of the power we wield... whether my voice has a majority behind it or not. it's somewhat out-of-fashion to believe in something, i know i sound silly being so unapologetically idealistic about all this.

if you don't agree with my chosen career, religion, or politics... that's fine. to anyone who loves freedom and will do what it takes to promote human dignity in whatever way they sincerely believe is best... i entreat you to stay however rough the seas for however long we stay afloat.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

smooth

Evidently, this topic was broached on PBS on Sunday (NOW).

One of the discussants was mentioning that the youth is going to start migrating en masse after they start to realize the implications of changes to the social security system.


Interestingly, many of us seem to be leaving to high tax nations that promise health care (even shoddy systems, according to the hype). So that tells me something about what we want and are willing to give up for it.

This phenomenon should accurately be called a "brain drain." I find it very strange that people would advocate people leaving more rapidly when those people are vital to the economy and their brainpower (trained by an excellent higher education system) will be forever lost to the nation that subsidized it.

Seems a more rational response would be to find incentives to make them stay.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Publius

Before this topic gets locked (thanks for your patients tecoyah) I would like a chance to add my food for thought to see if we can get a good discussion going here. First, it seems somewhat ironic to me that every time things get rough here in the States, part of our population starts migrating to Canada (think back to Vietnam/Korean War era, Civil War era, heck even the Revolutionary War era). I also find it somewhat ironic that the response that the (quote) “winning side” during these eras has towards those leaving seems to be “Love it or leave it”. True, I don’t think that one should go around “America hating” (that is to say hating all thing American simply because they are American), but to me it seems possible to love one’s country but hate the things that it does, and this shouldn’t make one unpatriotic or feel like one should be “forced” to leave one’s country. I would liken this analogy to that of a parent of a misbehaving child. The parent loves the child, but does not approve of actions that the child may take (or better yet for all the good christians in the crowd, God, who loves the sinner but hates the sin). When I hear political pundits (on both sides of the isle) make claims that their opinion is the only correct one and that everyone who disagrees with them (usually the minority) is not only wrong but unpatriotic and un-American, it strikes me that (not only are they unpatriotic and un-American to say such things) this is like the child claiming the parent doesn’t love them anymore because the parent doesn’t approve of the child’s behavior (and I just realized that some of you might read this and think that I am in some way attempting to claim that (insert your party name here) is somehow misbehaving like a child, and that we the “parents” really know what is best. I am not promoting this at all, just attempting to draw an analogy to demonstrate my point).

Second, according to Machiavelli there are two sort of people in the world, those who want to rule and those who don’t want to be ruled. The vast majority of Americans fall into this second category. Most of us just want to go about our daily lives free from governmental interference, and to a very large extent that is exactly what we get. I would venture to say that if one were to really step back a minute to look at this past presidential election the single fundamental underlying motivating factor for most voters was not moral/religious values, the war in Iraq/terrorism, the economy, or any other of the various “issues” claimed by the political pundits to be deciding factors. Sure these issues may have all played a part in the decision process of the voters, but the single fundamental underlying motivating factor of almost every voter in this election (as in all elections) is people chose to vote for the candidate that they believed would do the best job of protecting their rights and freedoms (from either governmental interference, corporate interference, or other).

Third, regardless of who came out with the most (popular or otherwise) votes in this election, neither side has a “clear mandate” from the American public (Bush for business as usual or Kerry for fighting against the evil neo-cons). Why do I say this? There are (approximately) 294,765,025 people in the US (see U.S. Census Bureau) and even as hotly contested as this election was only 120 million or so of them showed up to vote. Even taking into account that about 33.5 million people in America are not citizens (leaving about 261.2 million) less then half of all American’s voted in this year’s election. Even if we are to use the “eligible voter standard” (which can be somewhat arbitrary depending on who is using it) only 60% of those eligible to vote did, giving Bush less then 1/3 of the vote of the people (just for comparison Clinton won with less then 1/4). The vast majority of Americans “voted” by not showing up at the polls. Why? Because they either don’t see either side as posing a serious threat to their freedoms or they don’t see one side offering a better option then the other and simply have resigned themselves.

Lastly, our founding fathers understood Machiavelli’s take on human nature and gave us a government designed to limit the abilities of those few who wish to rule over the rest of us. For Democracy to work there must be open debate and compromise. It is not sufficient for one side to gain a majority and then force its rule over the minority claiming “mandates” and “legitimacy” and blaming all those who dare to disagree with their side unpatriotic and un-American. This is not a democracy, it is an elected dictatorship.

I personally am a revolutionary and there is another one scheduled in 2 years. Until that time I will do what little I can to shape the face of politics in my community. For those of you who are disgusted with the direction that this country is headed I say stay, join the revolution and fight for your rights and your vision of America. We can’t expect change to happen overnight, but if each one of us does his own part to effect change within his sphere of influence, together we can change the world.

When asked at the close of the constitutional convention “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”, Benjamin Franklin replied, “A Republic, if you can keep it”.

shakran

If the TFP admins support the banning of users because they have the audacity to challenge an ultra-right wing user (or left wing user for that matter. . . .or hell, any user), then it is not the place that I, or frankly pretty much any of us thought it to be.

Let me be sure of where I stand here. You seem to be threatening to ban me because I said the neo-conservatives are preaching bullshit. Are we no longer permitted to point out when someone is deceiving us?

The comparison to the sun rising on the moon was frankly disingenuous. I do hope you are not suggesting that we make all of our posts look like a legal document, with very specific examples (the sun will rise tomorrow on earth in the central time zone assuming the sun wasn't destroyed by a mutant space fly, and the like) in order to deal with simple definitions.

The idea that truth is subjective is 1) incorrect, 2) irrelevant (I was talking about fact, not truth, and 3) used as a cop-out by those who do not wish to make or support those who make strongly worded statements.

Throughout our little side argument you have concentrated on snipping away at minutae while not even bothering to deny my main point - Bush changed his story. Of course, you do not deny it because it is fact and it is truth, and no reasonable person would deny that white is white. It is also the reason for my original post.

I understand that there are those who do not wish to see the Bush administration for what it is. I understand that there are those who will become angry when someone points out their failings and shortcomings.

What I do not understand is why you seem to be saying that when people get angry, it is the fault of those pointing out the shortcomings, and not the fault of those who are allowing themselves to get angry because of the facts.