11-20-2004, 04:34 PM | #81 (permalink) | |
Insane
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11-20-2004, 04:49 PM | #82 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So anyone move yet or is just more hot air like 2000?
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
11-20-2004, 05:42 PM | #83 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: In transit
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Remember, wherever you go... there you are. |
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11-20-2004, 06:19 PM | #84 (permalink) |
Insane
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reasonable justification? assumptions within assumptions within.... There is no justification whatsoever for the slaughter being commited under false homeland security whitewash. America is not exporting democracy. They are attempting to control mideast oil production.
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11-22-2004, 07:45 AM | #85 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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Either way you argue it, you are admitting that the terrorists are deciding your elections for you. I still want to visit, why would anyone not like to visit Spain? |
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11-22-2004, 11:42 AM | #86 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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"Just give in" ? Do you know how many Spaniards have died from Al Queda attacks since the election?
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-22-2004, 03:16 PM | #88 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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Seems like the Spanish technique was effective.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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11-22-2004, 03:30 PM | #89 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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Of course, one of the demands for the US is to stop supporting Israel, which is to essentially say, "Sorry guys, you're on your own as far as the Arabs wanting to slaughter you all." Of course, it would also free the Israelis to do what they want as far as the occupied territories go. Which of course might lead some nations (like Iran) to conclude that the US wouldn't respond to an attack on Israel. Of course, Israel might feel it necessary to respond with nukes, possibly pre-emptively if Iran had them. So should we give in as well?
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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11-23-2004, 08:00 AM | #90 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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How many have died as a result of al queda attacks in Canada, Poland, Australia, Britain, Germany, U.S., S. Africa, Portugal, or any country other than Iraq since the Spanish attack? The claim of effectiveness demonstrates that we all don't have a real good understanding for how these people work. I guess we can all disagree on whether the Spainish people made the correct choice in the election, but no one seems to dispute the fact that Spain gave in as a result of the terror attack. All they wanted this time was a few hundred of your innocents and an election. I'd be concerned for what they are going to ask for next. |
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11-23-2004, 11:28 AM | #91 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Never Never Land
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And here is a question for thought, what would have happened had the US been hit at home with a similar attack just prior to the election? (Course this is all hypothetical at this point, thank God that we weren’t). Would the democrats have been able to get out the vote more or less do you suppose? Would support for an administration claiming to be keeping us safe from attacks (while the other guys wouldn’t be able to ie. Dick Cheney’s remarks) have increased or, more likely, decreased after such an event? Just something to ponder. |
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11-23-2004, 11:49 AM | #92 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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We were the ones who armed the Isrealites. Well, it was the US and the UK. We paid for them to develope one of the lergest armys on the planet, and we gave them nuclear technology. We give somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 billion to Isreal every year. If we heald onto that, it could pretty much balance the budget in a few years, BTW. So what doies Isreal do in response to this wonderful support? They spy on us. I say leave them to their own devices and tell them that if they decide to nuke, we'll blow them to kindgom come. That's americas standard stand on nuclear attacks. "You can have them, just don't use them. Actually, you're going to have to do what we say from now on", says Uncle(ar) Sam. |
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11-23-2004, 02:27 PM | #93 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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If it is assumed that the terrorists had that type of an impact on a great democracy, I wouldn't call it a success just that there haven't been any attacks in the past few months in Spain. Bullies don't just want your lunch money once. If it happened here in 04, my guess is that W would have won by a greater margin. The outcome may be different in a different circumstances. I'm sure Dick Cheney would have said whatever he thought would help W get re-elected if an attack happened just like he did when an attack didn't happen. |
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11-23-2004, 03:38 PM | #94 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Never Never Land
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Now that you have perked my interest in this topic I decided to go do a little reading to see what I could learn and it didn’t take me very long to find evidence to confirm my suspicions. I found this article to be a good break down of the events in Spain’s elections.
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11-23-2004, 07:42 PM | #95 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Spanish Polls before attack - Aznar
After attack Zapatero Good enough for me.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
11-24-2004, 08:37 AM | #97 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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I believe that Mr. Carpenter knows a lot more about this than me, but this is simply an opinion piece with no factual basis for the conclusions. I'm not saying he is wrong, but I don't see the proof behind the conclusion that the change in polls was b/c of Iraq rather and al qaeda. What we know as fact is that one party was ahead in the polls and that changed after the al qaeda attack. What about Iraq changed in that short period of time? Also, I don't think allegations of appeasement are a slur. I think it probably happened in this case. You can argue about whether or not it is a bad thing--I think it is, but closing your eyes to it and making excuses because you are a more thoughtful and nuanced writer for the CATA Institute doesn't help convince me.
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11-24-2004, 12:52 PM | #98 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Never Never Land
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Well you are right there aliali, this is just an opinion piece, but then again so are all the other “reports” about the election and the effects the train bombing had upon it unless of course someone is going to poll every single Spaniard who was thinking of voting for Prime Minister Aznar before the bombing and instead voted for Zapatero afterwards to see why exactly they changed their mind.
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11-24-2004, 01:00 PM | #99 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So, anyone buy that ticket to socialist freedom?
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
11-24-2004, 01:12 PM | #100 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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11-24-2004, 02:08 PM | #101 (permalink) | ||
Loser
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manx@paypal.com |
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11-24-2004, 02:19 PM | #102 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Missouri
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11-24-2004, 09:51 PM | #103 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: In transit
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You have to get to the socialist country BEFORE you get the handouts.. thats how it works. /me runs for cover! *sorry... couldnt resist.. you just painted a big red target on your forehead *
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Remember, wherever you go... there you are. |
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11-25-2004, 02:50 PM | #105 (permalink) |
Insane
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I haven´t checked this thread in a few days so I´ll just lump all my misinfomed responses together. Before elections here in Spain, Aznar was a genuinely hated individual. Some of the largest anti war demonstrations in the world took place here. I hit the streets of Barcelona with a million people. A million. 99% of the Spanish people were vehemently and vocally opposed to Aznar´s pro Bush stance!
There was no love lost for the short little mustached fool before the March 11th attacks. Basically they reinforced the strong public opinion that it was a bad move to get involved in the first place. Here in Spain we live with an enormous islamic culture dating back as far as written records. Morrocans and Algerians are easily as prevelent, if not more so, then Mexicans and people of Latino heritage in the US. Because of this there is an understanding and respect for the culture and beliefs of these genuinely good neighbors. High school graduates here can pont out Iraq on a map. North Korea and Cuba also. High school grads in the states these days seem barely able to spell their own name. Education is awareness. Preventive attack mentality has only served to create more hatred and hostility. Terrorists in Iraq? Yeah sure, there´s a whole bunch of the shitheads there now. I really doubt that they were flocking to Fallujah before. Like Iraq? You´re gonna love Iran. |
11-25-2004, 08:37 PM | #108 (permalink) |
Minion of the scaléd ones
Location: Northeast Jesusland
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No no no. Stay and fight. Fight to get a better congress, a better president, better governors and legislatures. Better schools too, so that, if people do decide to vote for the kind of folks they did last election, then at least they will have good reasons, as Art tends to, and not knee jerk reactions.
Not all fighting is about guns and bombs.
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Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life. |
11-26-2004, 09:51 PM | #110 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So in other words no one is really leaving.
*Sigh*
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
11-26-2004, 11:04 PM | #112 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-28-2004, 10:28 PM | #113 (permalink) |
Adrift
Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life
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First let me just state that this is only my opinion, and that I am completely convinced that while it is only my opinion, I am completely right.
If someone wants to take the opportunity to experience life in another part of the world, I have no qualms about it. There are innumerable good reasons to do so. To leave because the person you wanted to win an election did not or because a certain person did, is not one of these many reasons; at least if you truly believe in democracy. As of yet, no one can prove to me that this was a rigged election (ask the people in Ukraine about those), so like it or not George W. Bush is the duly elected President of the United States. To leave a country where we truly have the ability to make a difference in our government, is showing a great lack of respect for those who have worked and fought and died for us to have the power to do so. I get very frustrated when I hear people want to leave. What this country needs are people who want to get involved and work to make this an even greater country. Do we have problems? Of course we do, but walking away from them is no answer. If you don't like what is going on, if you don't like what this administration is doing then get involved. Work with community groups, talk to your representatives, write letters, Hell RUN FOR OFFICE!!! To leave the country is the only surefire way to guarantee you will not have a voice in how our country is governed. If you truly feel this is your only option, then I will join the chorus of others who have said, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." What I would prefer is that you join me and many others as members of the Loyal Opposition. Those who are proud to be Americans, but are stiving to change the direction this nation is headed and to shine light on the errors, misjudgements and any wrongdoings of this administration and conversly support this administration when it makes good decisions. America should never be about throwing in the towel, it should be about picking yourself up off the floor and getting back into the fight.
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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams |
11-28-2004, 11:17 PM | #114 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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It strikes me as strangely ironic to hear all this talk about who's country this is from right wing, mainly christian oriented people.
As I understand your cultural history, you came to *my* country because *your* country was too conservative for your ancestors' tastes. Now that *your* countries are firmly liberal in your views, why not go back? I mean, it's just strange that people landed here, killed my ancestors, and then make all these wierd claims that I shouldn't let the door hit me in the ass as I'm leaving "their" country. Just a reminder: just because you took something over doesn't make it yours--never was. funny how I have to go to your ancestors' country to get away from your ideas and social conditions. /signed by a real American.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
11-29-2004, 07:49 AM | #115 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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The last time I checked, the only requirement to be a real American was to be born here, which I believe we both were.
If we are talking about ancestors, several of mine were born here as well. If we are talking about when our ancestors got here, it is a matter of degrees, with your ancestors getting here a few thousand years before my ancestors, which in terms of the age of this planet and how long life has been here, is a blink of the eye.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
11-29-2004, 08:11 AM | #116 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this pollyanna talk about picking yourself up and getting back into "the fight" seems absurd. it presupposes as operational precisely the set of relations to the states that most of the folk who are considering leaving have found undermined by the act of collective self-immolation that was this past election.
i think that even a far right militant would understand that if you are going to leave it requires some planning to do it, each step of which is another opportunity to think through the decision. i suspect you will be seeing people leaving over the next couple of years. that anyone would imagine that it is possible to simply pack up your toys and leave in a week or so operates with a view of what is entailed that derives more from sitcoms like "sex in the city" (in which everyone wears 2000 dollar outfits every day) than it does the world in which people actually have to make a living. but whatever--this thread has been more about the right deploying ugly little variants of their particular way of resenting those who oppose them politically than it was talking about what might really be at stake for folk who are thinking of leaving.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
11-29-2004, 08:40 AM | #117 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: MA, USA
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Would I leave (the united states of) america? Not yet
I live in MA. My Famly and I hate bush and the right wing. If I had no job and famly attachments I would leave. There are many places I would like to go and Canada is far closer to my view of a good Gov't then USA is. If a draft is started, or if bush gets any more asertive about the constitution I will atempt to leave the country. Though if secession... |
11-29-2004, 08:48 AM | #118 (permalink) |
Is In Love
Location: I'm workin' on it
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I just want to point out that it's really fucking hard leaving this country for Canada. There's endless waits and paperwork and money involved.
That being said, if anyone wants to donate to me moving to Canada I'd be more than willing to take your money
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Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great. |
11-29-2004, 09:05 AM | #119 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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You know MML for the first time ever, and without any hesitation, I wholey 100% agree with you, and could not have said it better myself.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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11-29-2004, 09:10 AM | #120 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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fight, leave |
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