Fighting fair... your take?

[abaya]

I grew up watching my parents fight very unfairly... from screaming to throwing things and accusing each other of all kinds of inhumane thoughts and actions. Not to mention conducting these arguments at all times of night or day, in front of me, and dredging up shit from the past as well as major guilt tripping... the list goes on.

Watching all this left a deep impression on me in two ways:

#1, I inherited some of these negative patterns, though didn't realize this until my first serious relational conflicts. This fact scared me and made me wonder if I could ever have a good relationship [good thing I was wrong!].

#2, I desired to conduct my future relationships in ways wholly different from what I had absorbed as a child. I started thinking that my parents would have communicated so much more effectively if they had sworn to stick by a few ground rules during their yelling matches. I've seen people who fight very fair, and are closer as a result of their disagreement... and I want to become more like them.

So, my question for you all is, what are some of the rules that you use in fighting fair with your SO? I will list some that I've come up with today (after a heated discussion with my bf last night; for the most part we are learning how to fight fair, but it is a process )... feel free to add your own, or to say that you disagree with one of my rules.

* Speak up (not holding it in) if something is on your mind and the other person is able and willing to listen.

* Honor both people’s time commitments and responsibilities; also be willing to prioritize the relationship and sacrifice an activity if there is no other time.

* If for any reason the discussion cannot take place at that time, or if it gets to a point where nothing can be resolved, then say clearly that “I care about you and I want to work on this with you; however, we need to do this another time.” Then set a different time and stick to it.

* Use “I feel___when you___” statements, not “You always/never ___” etc.

* Do not assume anything is a personal attack, even if it sounds like one. Instead, be aware of your own emotional reaction and think about why you are reacting that way, then communicate it if possible…

* But if someone does get angry, blaming, sarcastic… call them on it immediately.

* Look for chances to affirm each other, if possible, during the discussion (even if it’s just a touch on the arm or a little kiss).

* Don’t use negative language about the other person or yourself (esp. victimization of self or demonization of the other).

* Swearing should be a last resort, and not directed towards the other person.

* Do not raise your voice or a hand to the other person, especially as a form of intimidation. Hold the other person accountable if they do these things.

* Always respond to the other person, even if it’s just with sounds or eye contact.

* Be attentive to what is needed by the other person...

* But if someone isn't being as attentive, or if you just need to communicate unmet needs in general, state clearly that “I need you to____ when I ____,” instead of demanding.

* Be prepared to admit that you are wrong and apologize without qualms.

* Always work towards a resolution, or at least towards clearing the air of strong feelings until a resolution can be found.

* Never walk out on anyone unless there is a possibility of violence.

* Explain to children what is going on so they are not scared.

[Elphaba]

Abaya, you are wise beyond your years. I can't think of another thing to add to your list and I've been with the same man for 30 years. We argued in all the wrong ways until we learned to do it in a supportive way.

[maleficent]

* Never walk out on anyone unless there is a possibility of violence.

OK, so I suck at relationships, but I'd disagree with that one.. sometimes you just need to get away to clear your head - get some rational thoughts back - and resume when you get back... The best part of beating your head against a brick wall... is stopping... walking out is often that stop...

[abaya]

Good point, Mal. I guess that's what I was thinking with this rule...

Originally Posted by abaya

* If for any reason the discussion cannot take place at that time, or if it gets to a point where nothing can be resolved, then say clearly that “I care about you and I want to work on this with you; however, we need to do this another time.” Then set a different time and stick to it.

So I guess yeah, you can walk out, but be sure that it's not a "I'm walking out and leaving you forever" thing. That's how my mom and/or dad always did it... it was more of a threat/intimidation tool to get a reaction, not a genuine gesture of "I need time, let me cool off." But you're right, I think, given that context.

Thanks, Elphaba... though I don't know about being wise, since true wisdom is not only knowledge, but actually being able to practice such knowledge consistently. Which I do not!! But I am working on it.

[Elphaba]

I agree with you Mal, but would add that you communicate to your SO that you need to leave to consider and/or cool off before leaving. Who wouldn't respect with that request?

[chickentribs]

If I follow all of these rules, how will I know if we're fighting??

It is a great list, maybe a little long for someone like me that needs to keep it simple when fighting - I could easily see it turn into a fight about what fight rules were or weren't being broken!!

Maleficient's point was the one that jumped at me right away also. Being allowed to walk away if I needed was the only rule I asked for, but that one doesn't go over so well when your SO has unresolved abandonment issues!

[chickentribs]

Oh - and can I lobby for a "no tears in the middle of a perfectly civil argument" clause? Talk about unfair...

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I agree with you Mal, but would add that you communicate to your SO that you need to leave to consider and/or cool off before leaving. Who wouldn't respect with that request?

Honestly, I'm not sure if I could. I'm kind of a hothead, if I get up to leave, let me leave, if I get that infernal whining about why are you leaving and when are you coming back.. I'm not sure I would actually want to. come back that is.. I'm leaving to prevent a bigger fight, and I'm leaving because I don't have the words anymore...

As I say --I suck at relationships...

[maleficent]

Originally Posted by chickentribs

Oh - and can I lobby for a "no tears in the middle of a perfectly civil argument" clause? Talk about unfair...

I'll give you a huge AMEN there, my brotha!!! Tears as a weapon...is wrong.

[abaya]

Chicken... yeah, I know it's a long list... I was sort of just brainstorming as I went... but honestly, I don't think it's so much about memorizing rules, as just internalizing them to the point where fair fighting becomes second nature during conflict with the SO. Some people can fight fairly without any "rules," because they're just like that (though TWO people like that in one relationship? never seen it myself). Like I said, my parents never did any of this, so for me I have to be conscious about it in order to know that I'm not turning into them. Think of them more as... guidelines.

On the tears... what if they aren't being used as a weapon? If really strong emotions overcome someone, I think crying is the same as needing to walk out suddenly. As long as they aren't done with malice/manipulation in mind, then I think they're both okay?...

btw Mal, from all your posts I've read, I certainly don't think you suck at relationships. In your case, I think your fair rule is that "I need to get up and walk out if I get too pissed off, so please let me do that." As long as it gets communicated at some point before/after, well that's fair 'nuff in my opinion.

[Elphaba]

If I reach the level of frustration that tears are about to flow, then I communicate the need for some walk away time. Hubby hates tears, and I don't *use* them on him. No surer way to shut him down than that.

We rarely reach that place where we can't communicate rationally anymore. We've been together a long time and any sort of bull shit games were dumped long ago.

[Sugar&Spice]

For the most part, we follow most of those rules. He is more rational about everything and has never once raised his voice in an arguement. I need to work on admitting that I am wrong. I am very stubborn and I hate saying "I'm sorry." But, I have tried sucking it up and apologizing and it seems to make everything so much better so I'm going to continue working on that.

[chickentribs]

Originally Posted by abaya

On the tears... what if they aren't being used as a weapon? If really strong emotions overcome someone, I think crying is the same as needing to walk out suddenly. As long as they aren't done with malice/manipulation in mind, then I think they're both okay?...

Absolutely - but do you realize that would have given me permission to turn and walk out whenever she started to cry? I'm kidding, a bit... Although tears can't be helped sometimes, the talk needs to stop right there and be picked up later or else it is manipulative. And I can't say for sure that it always happened just as my point was about to be made, but...

Oh well, you'll notice the past tense in the language and so I was either really bad at fighting, and we split up OR I was very good and I won. It's all how you look at it.

[Chuckles]

what do you guys think about bringing back past things? Say an argument has been goin on, and one brings back examples that their s.o. has done in the past, yet that has already been argued and settled? Is it fair to use that against them then? Things like "well remember that time you....." can that be used? Or how bout things u know about them previous to your relationship to them?

[guthmund]

I think if you bring back past examples...well, you're never going to clear the air as long as one side is making a list trying to score points. Even if the 'list' is to show a definitive pattern of behavior, it doesn't matter. The other person is always going to see it as an attack.

[chickentribs]

Originally Posted by Chuckles

what do you guys think about bringing back past things? Say an argument has been goin on, and one brings back examples that their s.o. has done in the past, yet that has already been argued and settled? Is it fair to use that against them then? Things like "well remember that time you....." can that be used? Or how bout things u know about them previous to your relationship to them?

Well my experience is that it is unfair, irrelevant, and common. The only time somebody falls back on the past is when they have bought your current argument but still won't give in. Offer up a compromise as a way out for them to save face and they will generally take it. If they don't, you are just fighting for fighting's sake and that just has to run it's course... "I know you are, but what am I?" is a nice fallback position at that point.

[StanT]

* Never walk out on anyone unless there is a possibility of violence.

Originally Posted by maleficent

OK, so I suck at relationships, but I'd disagree with that one.. sometimes you just need to get away to clear your head - get some rational thoughts back - and resume when you get back... The best part of beating your head against a brick wall... is stopping... walking out is often that stop...

Clearing your head and resuming is fine, but my wife used to walk away from an argument as a tactic to control it. She'd stew for a few days and bring it back up at the least desirable moment when she thought she might have an upper hand. We seem to have gotten past that.


There ought to be a statute of limitations on old arguments. It's hard to defend or even explain dumb shit I did 10 years ago.

[JustJess]

Bringing up past arguments is a HUGE no-no in our house. The minute anyone does that in a "keeping points" sort of way, they get called on it immediately as being bullshit. An argument should be about the current issue. The only time past incidents can be brought up is if the argument is about a trend, a pattern, and you use examples - not in a 'but you were wrong then, and then, and then' way - but to illustrate why you feel the way you feel.
We try to follow these 'rules' too... as best we can! As for rule #1, speak up... that's the one I just can't do. I don't like to bring up stuff immediately for a variety of reasons: 1. what if I'm overreacting/currently overemotional? I don't want to start an argument over nothing if it's just me. 2. sometimes, I'm just too angry and I want to cool off, and be able to be reasonable. 3. sometimes, if it's a behavior that upsets me (for instance... he could be picking on me too much in front of his friends, to an unnecessarily hurtful point), I want to make sure it's not just a one-time occurrence. It may just be a fluke. If he does it several times, THEN it gets brought up.

Otherwise, I have to agree with those "fightin' words".

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by maleficent

OK, so I suck at relationships, but I'd disagree with that one.. sometimes you just need to get away to clear your head - get some rational thoughts back - and resume when you get back... The best part of beating your head against a brick wall... is stopping... walking out is often that stop...

I don't think this makes you suck at relationships. In my view, if your partner knows you, then they would need to respect that this is what you need to do, and they would hopefully have a 'coping mechanism' for those times.

Perhaps you could just mumble that you need to clear your head as you depart...

[Seeker]

Is there is room for "agreeing to disagree"?

Sometimes I find it's easier to allow this concept. Just because we are together does not mean that we have to come to agree on everything.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Chuckles

what do you guys think about bringing back past things? Say an argument has been goin on, and one brings back examples that their s.o. has done in the past, yet that has already been argued and settled? Is it fair to use that against them then? Things like "well remember that time you....." can that be used? Or how bout things u know about them previous to your relationship to them?

I found personally that when I was bringing up 'past issues' even as examples, I still had resentment and anger... so even though it may have been discussed and sorted, it still lingered.

The other aspect I see in this is for point-scoring, it's not tennis... stick with the issue.

[abaya]

I agree on the no-past-issues stuff. God, my mother is a pro at that, and once she got going, so did my dad. Ugly stuff. Although... what if you are citing an example in the past about yourself, not the other person? As in, "The way I feel now is similar to such and such in the past, do you see the pattern of what triggers me?" something like that. In that sense I don't think it's used to score points... it's just looking for patterns that may be helpful to understanding the current situation?...

Jess, I like your rules about speaking up. I think I should have clarified and said, "Speak up if something is really bothering you, rational or not, and doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon." I try to keep these things in mind... I find that after a time period of 2-3 days, though, if something's still there, I need to bring it up. On the other hand, some people prefer to have conflict addressed immediately, not to have the other person wait and let it build up... thoughts?

[Cynthetiq]

I have not set any ground rules for fighting these seem like a good starting point.

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by abaya

Although... what if you are citing an example in the past about yourself, not the other person? As in, "The way I feel now is similar to such and such in the past, do you see the pattern of what triggers me?" something like that. ...it's just looking for patterns that may be helpful to understanding the current situation?...

Totally great point! That is how I explain my triggers too. I have found this to be a 'constructive' way to approach discord. You can discuss the issue without 'attacking' or attributing blame on your partner - which usually results in defence mechanisms blocking any path to resolution.

[Willravel]

That is a really mature and wise list!

My wife and I decided early on not to yell unless we are far away from each other and need the extra volume to cover the difference. As far as our experience, yelling solves nothing and usually escelates a disagreement to a bad fight. I've let this leak over into the rest of my life. I haven't yelled at anyone in over a year, and not only does it not bother me, but it feels kinda good.

My wife and I are also really big believers in make up sex. Theere is simply nothing that removes tension like a great night's non-sleep.

[Rodney]

As for not finishing the argument, I and several other married men agree that an argument, once started, must conclude on the same day -- at least at some understanding, if not at a final agreement. No matter how late in the day the argument starts. Going to bed mad is not an option; one or both people will actually not sleep, and will have all night to stew and make things worse.

I once lived with this woman who often would wait until bedtime to bring up whatever was bothering her. There was nothing for it but to pry my eyes open and carry on.

[lurkette]

We don't really have any established ground rules for arguments, but here are a few that have evolved over our years together:

1. lurkette will not stomp out of the room, nor will she stomp across the room muttering, if the argument is not going her way

2. no sarcasm

3. ratbastid will not assume lurkette thinks he's an idiot

4. lurkette will not talk like ratbastid is an idiot

5. ratbastid will not gesticulate with his hands near lurkette's face (I get wigged out)

6. ratbastid will not say "that's really unattractive"

OK, I think I've told on both of our bad habits pretty equally.
Other than that, we try to avoid being "positional," having to be right, making personal comments, imitating each other meanly.

Our "do's" include working towards resolution, assuming that the other person loves you, looking for what you can give up, speaking responsibly, and taking responsibility for one's own role in the conflict.

[quadro2000]

Jess outlined a lot of our rules. I know how you're feeling - my father hasn't fought fair in years. He brings up the past, completely closes himself off if things aren't going his way, and yells whenever he feels it's necessary. I've worked really hard to not act like him, which is tough because it's a part of me. I have always asked Jess to point out whenever I'm acting like him, because I need to be made aware of it.

One of my biggest problems is using the word "stupid." Like if I'm angry and I think she's done something dumb, I'll say something like "you're stupid," and that really upsets her. This is something that I still have a problem with.

One of my biggest rules is the typical "don't go to bed angry." We usually try to stay awake and work out problems until they're worked out. Sometimes it can't work; sometimes you need to get some distance from the problem. But I find that going to bed angry just pushes all those feelings deep inside, and sometimes they just don't come out in the morning - so they get internalized and come out sometime later (and it's never the right time). So we try and work everything out before bed. For the most part, it works for us.

[OPgary]

[B]Agreeing to disagree! Now there is a key. As I have matured my wife and I can both agree to disagree. If I am going to get too pissed though, a mile walk usuallay anges my attitude and puts me in a more reasonable frame of mind

[analog]

I won't comment on the effectiveness of the majority of that list, but I will say that many of those are used by therapists and self-help-type therapy books to help people in dire need of a stepping stone. There is no universal set of rules for arguing between partners in a relationship, as everyone's ideals and opinions are different. As such, the original list in this thread is comprised mostly of (in my educated opinion) stepping-stone-type suggestions for modes of behavior with respect to people who can't make lists for themselves. That is why many of those items seem peculiar to some of us, as they are not the types of suggestions we'd ever use. This is because not everyone needs a stepping-stone. There is nothing wrong with the stepping-stone suggestions, and many of them have merit in many instances.

Just take the list with a grain of salt.

[abaya]

^ Analog, I hope everyone takes every post on TFP with a grain of salt! That said, your response felt abstract and aloof... maybe I read it wrong, but I wasn't sure what the purpose was behind your reply. There as no personal connection to who you are or what you struggle with. It's hard to know what you were trying to say unless you just say right out, "When I argue, this works, this doesn't..." That would help me understand where you're coming from a bit more.

The list wasn't meant to be universal... I just wanted to see how my internalized list compared with other couples on TFP. I don't think ANYone has a list printed on their refrigerator for reference!... I certainly don't... but when I do cross these lines in my relationships, I sense that something has gone wrong, and I usually trace it back to violating one of these rules. So for me, I just wanted to verbalize them and see what others thought.

These "rules" (my own amalgamation, not taken from a therapy book) grew almost completely out of my own nasty experiences growing up in an extremely dysfunctional family... so I don't know if I am in any more "dire need" of a stepping stone than anyone else, but I know that no human being is a "natural" at being in a relationship... we ALL have to work on stuff. This list is one of my ways of working on that stuff... if it works for others, cool. If not, hey, this is TFP... feel free to ignore it and move on.

[Seeker]

I was going to ask the same thing.. if this type of list is a stepping-stone, what are the other options? What is 'not a stepping-stone'? Or rather, how do you approach the issue without stepping-stones?