Rlyss

Hi everyone.

I've been with my girlfriend for just a little over a year, and we've had many ups and downs, and broken up and got back together many times.

Recently she's been stressing a lot about uni, and her family, and her job, and a lot of insecurities. I know her family, and they are an almost textbook example of a dysfunctional family. That's fair enough, I went through many years of depression so I know how she feels. She's mentioned wanting seeing a counsellor for a little while now, and I explained to her how that's nothign unusual, and nothing to be ashamed of, and if she wanted then I could help her find one.

Tonight in our MSN conversation she said some things to me, some of which were:

---

Her:
i think i want a therapist
Me:
how come?
Her:
just so i can talk to someone about everything that goes thru my head
Me:
it's a lot?
Her:
yeh
Me:
i think it's fairly straightforward to do that
Me:
and i bet we can do it through uni

---

Her:
plz no smiley faces
Me:
what's preventing you from looking into councelors?
Her:
i know ur just tyring to be pos and nice

---

Her:
i might just kinda think about things on my own
Me:
why not do something? you can talk to me, like i said before Or I can help you find someone
Her:
im not ok talking to someone i dont know
Me:
some ppl feel better about it if it's someone they don't know
Her:
id rather not dump things on u
Me:
you really don't want me to help you find someone?
Her:
its coz im wishing u or my mum will offer it to b u to listen
Her:
makes me feel bad when u suggest i should talk to someone
Me:
ah ok, just that you said you wanted a therapist, so i thought i'd help
Her:
i meant u
Her:
thats the thing, i dont want to tell u or anyone
Her:
im sure u can figure out how i feel right now
Her:
i think its just best we end this convo tnite now
Her:
i will never talk opening [openly] to ppl i dont know
Her:
can we drop this?
Her:
actually nevermind
Her:
gnite

---

And that was it. She went offline and won't answer my call. A few minutes later she came online and then offline again with half a second, which usually happens when people connect to MSN and then quickly put themselves on invisible mode.

I've always offered to help her in any way, despite knowing full well that I'm not certain I want to be with her for the rest of my life, but at the moment I am fairly happy. I've offered to be the one she can talk to, I've offered to help her find someone she can talk to. But when she says she wants a therapist, and then I offer to let her tell me, and then offer to help her find somebody she can talk to, she gets snappy and says she wanted me to offer?

If she wants some good psychological help, a boyfriend like me (of only a year, and our relationship is quite rocky as it is) is probably not the best person to go to. For small things yes, but I do think that for serious emotional issues she needs more professional help than I can give. I know that sounds like I'm being impatient and uncaring, but my intentions are true here. My friends were of great help when I was depressed but I also knew that the more serious issues were mroe seirous than anything some supportive friendly words could deal with.

I really think that for the past seven or eight months now I've been a VERY supportive boyfriend. I understand the depression she's going through, I've done everything I can to help her. I've always offered to be there for her to talk to, and I've always told her that if she doesn't want to talk to me then I understand, and that I'll help her find a councellor. Of course I would never take offence at something like that, if she didn't want to tell me about some things.

I went through some really bad depression that lasted for about four years, and I know I was quite stubborn, but I didn't refuse help as blatantly as this. Am I being very impatient by getting frustrated that she shoots down my attempts to help her? By benig accused of being falsely positive and falsely nice? I'm worried I'll soon be at a point where I snap at her and tell her that she has to help herself, I can't just try and try to help her and get shot down every time.

EDIT: Just to clarify something. I feel like I may be a little too impatient. I do recognize the value of the kind and supporting words of friends when you're feeling down, my friends have certainly helped me through a lot of things. But I also realize the value of professional help, and that psychiatry is a <i>much</i> more complex study than Dr Phil or simple pop psychology.

Cynthetiq

yes, patience. she will talk and open up when ready.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

maleficent

Trying to figure out how to phrase this without offending anyone.

She mentions that maybe she wants to talk to someone about some issues that she's going thru. She's just talking about trying out the idea, getting used to the idea. Just back off a little bit on it, when she's ready to make the appointment to go, she'll do it.

You can't help people unless they want help. Sometimes the best move is to step back a little, keep sharp objects away from their reach, and just be a friend.

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Polyphobic

Trust me, you can't push someone to get help if they don't want it. Just try to stay the course and be there for her. Also, take her problems into account when y'all start getting into a fight or argument. Give her some slack or at least try to not get angry with her.
My wife was recently diagnosed bi polar. The main cause was years of abuse from family members. It took her a while before she even told me about it. Then some time after that before she found help. My role during this was being supportive and giving her my opinion. I listened and told her the I thought she should try counseling. Eventually, she agreed and things have gotten much better.

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<--The great infidel-->

Rlyss

What gets to me the most is the stubborn refusal to accept any help, despite the constant attention craving and inaction. For instance, when I offer to let her talk to me, and she says she wants a therapist, and then I offer to help her find one, and then she says she meant me.

Or when I get bombarded with her claims that everything's her fault, or that I've got it better than her, or that she should just grow up, or that she doesn't want to say something because I'll feel bad. All these mind games and second-guessing just drive me nuts. I don't want to read 'im trying to tell u that ur waht im living for' after only a year of an alread-rocky relationship. She is not the only thing I live for, she's a part of that, and I shouldn't have to feel guilty or bad for having a family, or friends, or study to do.

And I suppose I should perhaps just accept it as 'female nature', but I don't want to be treated like an enemy.

I want to help her, but I don't want to be the sole source of ALL her self-confidence. I don't want to feel guilty for spending time with my family or studying for exams or hanging out with friends.

What the hell does one say when you give a hypothetical: "It would be absurd for me to tell you to quit your job and your degree and leave your family and all your friends, just because I told you to", to which she responds "I would do all that if you told me to."

maleficent

She: Maybe I should wear the dress instead of those pants.
You: If you want to
She: You dont like this dress?
You: I like the dress fine
She: You hate this dress, you think it makes me look fat.

--------------------
Sometimes, with some folks, you can't win no matter what you do.

The young woman has got some issues, but they are not your issues. Your happiness is important as is your well being. You can't fix people who don't want to be fixed.

It's not female nature, not for all females anyhow.

She sounds like she might have some trust issues, and is constantly testing you -- to see how much she can get away with. What's her past relationship history?

Being the source of some elses self confidence and being their entire world is scary. I'd run away... FAST. No good could ever come of that.

You've mentioned that you aren't sure if she's the ONE, the one you want to spend the rest of your life with. That kinda says that she's not -- You'd know. You seem to have a life. You seem to be her life. There's a saying older than me -- you can't have a life with someone else, until you've had a life by yourself.

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Cynthetiq

seems to me she's looking for someone else to take responsibility for her life, and at the same time not wanting to give that responsibility away.

let her be, after a while, and she still bemoans the issue, it's time to say, either shit or get off the pot.

my thought of the day is:

Attitude is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than success, than what other people think, say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a business...a home...a friendship...an organization. The remarkable thing is, you have a choice every day of what your attitude will be. We cannot change our past...we cannot change the actions of others. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can change is our attitude. Life is 10% of what happens to us and 90% of how we react to it.

la petite moi

Sounds like how I act when I get depressed. I get frustrated, say and do things I don't mean, and then I'm fine.

Be patient. Keep encouraging her to get help. Find her things to do with you when you're together. Just don't leave her alone with this too long or she may think you're neglecting her.

Bytheby, how old is she? Seriously, she sounds like me.

Rlyss

la petite moi - she's 20, I'm about six months older than her. You say I should be more patient with her but I'm finding it incredibly hard to do that these days. I feel like every positive thing I do for her does nothing but raise the bar for next time. If I do something nice, no matter how minor, it means that that's now the minimum I should do. If you search for my name on the boards I think you'll find that well over half my posts are about her, for almost the past year I would imagine.

Normally I would be encouraged by lack of progress. With her, and with everything I've said above, I'm going the opposite way. And the strange (and heartbreaking) thing about it is that I'm struggling to feel like I should be patient, and that I should be there for her, and that I do even love her.

After browsing through some of my old posts I see such a recurring theme. My unhappiness with her smothering and neediness, versus my independence and confidence that she and I are a couple.

Cynthetiq

trying not to sound too harsh with this but if it's been going on for as long as you are saying and it isn't making any headway, then I'm of the opinion that you make one last attempt. It takes two to tango and if it's just you trying then it's not a relationship it's a dependency.

maleficent

Feeling like you should be there and wanting to be there are two different things. If you are staying out of obligation then that's the wrong reason to stay. Neither of you will be happy.

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Polyphobic

Plus, you two aren't married. Things get more complicated when you are married and/or have kids. It's easier to cut your losses early (so to speak).

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<--The great infidel-->

la petite moi

Yeah, I didn't recognise how bad this was. I would say that if you and she can't find a happy medium......you definitely will want to cool it.

ratbastid

There will definitely be a staff councelor at her university. Probably a team of them. If she's willing, she can get help.

Here's the thing: you should stop treating her like a problem. She's a human being. She's got issues. She is not her issues. She's a person who has issues. What's going on here is that you're trying to have a relationship with the issues, which is frustrating and doesn't work. Try having a relationship with the person, instead.

The flip-side of that is that she thinks that she is her issues.

dirtyrascal7

okay, this might sound like some weird advice but bear with me...

the next time you two talk about this, make sure it's in person. IM is great for flirting or small talk, but for serious things like this, there's no substitute for face-to-face interaction.

when she says something, really listen to her empathically, think about what she's really trying to say, then repeat it back to her. for example:

Her:
i think i want a therapist
You:
you want to get a therapist.

or...

Her:
i might just kinda think about things on my own
You:
you just want to think about everything on your own for a while.

i know that seems odd, but it does two important things... A) it shows her that you're really listening to her, but aren't judging her or telling her what to do... and B) it gives her a chance to hear what she's just said again, causing her to think about it more closely... "is getting a therapist what i really want? no... that doesn't sound like the right idea." or "hmm, well i have been thinking about things on my own for a while already... maybe it's time to get someone else's opinion."

hopefully you'll find that she'll open up to you a lot more because you're not being pushy, yet you are helping her through her problems... eventhough she is really doing all the work.

good luck.

wilbjammin

There is a little passive-aggressive undertone to those conversations. Like she wants you to be concerned with her, and she wants you to know that you're powerless to help her. She just wants to know that you care by you being worried:

Trust issues? It goes beyond simply trust, she's trying to get you to divine what is going on without her telling you. Basically, trying to force you to read between the lines.

I hate that... it has been done to me, and there is no good in it.

You should avoid at all costs in being in a relationship to help save another from her demons. Even if you can help, that puts pressure on you to force the other person to have a good state of well-being - this is not fair; you can only take responsibility for your own well-being and to not doing things to hurt others.

I would tell her that you care about her and that you want her to be happy, but that you cannot, in anyway, read her mind and know how to react unless she specifically starts telling you things.

What I haven't read in this thread is you explaining why you like her. You've mentioned that she has all of these problems, but what makes her someone that you want to be with other than her being depressed which allows you to put a lot of effort into focusing on her. Don't lose yourself in her... never forget that the most important person in your life is yourself, because if you don't take care of yourself, then you can't reach out effectively in a meaningful manner.

You need to talk about trust, and then give her space. It is up to her to decide when to approach you, and while you're waiting you should figure out why you're with this troubled person.

If it is out of pity or guilt only, then you really should move on.

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Innominate.

Rlyss

wilbjammin - I know why I <i>was</i> with her. That is, I know why I started it in the first place. I had a bit of a crush on her, then a group of our friends spent a week at a beach house and she and I really hit it off. We were into the same music, unlike anybody I know, she wasn't afraid to speak her mind, she was so confident, she went out a lot, she drank and wasn't uptight (when I realized I had a crush on her was when I saw her and her friends having a few drinks and watching porn at the beach house and everyone having a laugh!), she's really creative and into art, she wasn't shy, she is beautiful. We had so much in common.

Almost all of that has changed in the past year though. She berates me for drinking if we go out, she doesn't like going out anymore, and if she does, she likes to go home before midnight, our music taste has changed (although that doesn't make a difference), she is insecure and become dependent on me, she has very set views on sex (she will do NOTHING but straight missionary, no oral, no foreplay), she firmly believes that the guy should always drive because it's the man's job, she believes that men are animals (eg. porn is evil, FFM porn is purely for the man's pleasure, having two women at once, MMF porn simulates gang-rape, anything but missionary is demeaning, etc.). Basically so many of the things I saw in her a year aren't there, or if they are, have become so entwined in me that she doesn't seem like her own person anymore.

maleficent

Not that this is your problem, but what's changed for her in the past year -- any traumatic events?

or is what she has become her true personality, and what she was a year ago, was an act to get the guy?

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Rodney

Boy, this one set off some alarm bells. Used to know an incredibly beautiful woman who was smart, competent, sexually adventurous, able to make her way in the world, and so on. And whenever she got into a relationship, she became a stay-at-home, never initiated sex, was suddenly incapable of screwing in a lightbulb, would quit her job and just keep house all day and let the guy bring in the money. And when the relationship broke up, she'd go back to being competent, adventurous, etc. Until the next serious guy.

I never got involved with her and, after seeing the cycle played through a couple of times, was glad I didn't. It turns out that this particular woman had serious issues in her past -- abused as a child, and more. Knowing these issues, I could sympathize with what was going on. But I also know it was up to her to decide whether she needed to change or not, and she never faced up to it.

Anyway, good luck. I agree that trying to talk to her any way but face to face won't work. I also know that, from this situation and others, that endlessly being a "nice guy" won't solve anything. Give her time if she needs it, but if she still refuses to seek help over time, then get out. She sounds like an unhappy person who is -- no doubt unconsciously -- using you as a crutch rather than working with you as a partner.

irseg

You have infinitely more patience than I do. At that point I'd be saying "JUST SAY WHAT YOU MEAN OR SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP WASTING MY TIME."

Nothing gets under my skin more than people who can't make a simple statement without turning around and blatantly contradicting themselves. And it's even worse when they act like it's your fault for assuming there's some kind of correlation between what they say and what they mean.

"I want a therapist" means "I want a therapist." It does NOT mean "I don't want a therapist, I don't want to talk to you. Then again I do want to talk to you, but not if you say I should talk to a therapist like I just suggested. Oh nevermind, I don't want to talk to you about it anyway." That's just stupid.

Rlyss

irseg - Once she started attacking me for not reading between the lines I pointed out to her how seriously I take mental health (I've studied psychology, I'd like to get a degree in it, I'm fascinated by it, and I like watching Frasier) and how I do compare it to physical health. I told her that if she had a broken leg and she said to me 'I think I want a doctor' I wouldn't pretend I was Superman, I wouldn't try to fix her broken leg on my own. I'd acknowledge and accept the fact that I cannot do everything, and there are people out there who know what to do. I said to her that if she asked for a doctor, I would help her find one, and if she asks for a therapist, I would help her find one. She said that after a year I should know well enough. I think I rolled my eyes at this point.

maleficint - I honestly don't knowwhat has changed. I don't want to pretend for a minute that I haven't changed. I'm sure I have. The thrill of the chase isn't there anymore after a year, things are more settled, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm still excited by knowing she can be a great person at times, I'm not bored at all. There haven't been any traumatic events. Her family isn't perfect (her parents openly tell her they prefer her brother over her) and I recognize that and certainly don't hold it against her. In fact I am amazed she hasn't turned out more warped that she currently is. Imagine being told by your parents that they love your brother more than you! I can't even begin to imagine how painful and traumatizing that would be, and it is one of those things that I keep in mind when considering her dependency issues and her need for consolation and affection. I am more affectionate with her than I am generally comfortable with, because I know that she needs it and I'm fairly happy to give it.

It's when the nice things I do are greeted by either:
- a remark that I should have done it sooner
- a remark that I should have done it better
- a remark that something wrong I did a year ago (eg. not spend as much time with her as I 'should' have at a party) overshadows anything good I could do now

I guess something like all this is bound to happen when you cross someone as emotionally needy as her with someone as independent as me. I do have a very hard time getting my feelings across, on the spot, but I know I do better than average.

maleficent

You are a young guy, not immature or anything negative going with being young. But you have 50 + years ahead of you. Is this what you want for the next 50 years, for the next 10, or even 6 months.

She sounds like the stereotypical woman, that I hear my friends griping about.
Man: What's wrong, honey.
Woman: You should know.
Man: No, honey I don't know otherwise I wouldn't be asking.
Woman: IF you loved me, you'd know
Inability to communicate is a killer of any relationship.

She's probably a lovely person, however, relationships are a two way street. (Leaving sex out of it) What does she bring to the relationship. Can you count on her being there for you during bad times. What does she bring to the relationship, if it's just neediness, and clinginess, you deserve better than that.

Is she fixable? Probably. Are you the one to do it? If you want a project instead of a girlfriend.

Her emotional issues are, quite franky, not your problem. That's baggage, and it needs to be checked at the door when a new relationship starts.

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Cynthetiq

maleficent that's great!

My best relations with women were those who didn't have that baggage, or at least only had a small carryon and not a whole giant matching set.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

irseg

Is there some kind of secret girl school where they all get taught to act EXACTLY LIKE THAT? It's as if they're all reciting from a script.

Guy: What's wrong?
Girl: (sternly) Nothing.
Guy: Are you sure everything's okay? You look upset.
Girl: I'm okay, really. I feel great!
Guy: Alright then, just making sure.
Girl: FINE. (why do they ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS say "fine" in that bitchy tone of voice? why not another word, like "great" or "okie dokie!"??)

... and then she storms off all pissed off for you being too much of a dumb oaf to tell that she's very obviously upset about something.

Cynthetiq

I don't know why they do.... but I tell my wife all the time, if I could read your mind and others, don't you think that I would have become a by multimillionaire now?

seriously, I tell her, I really can't read your mind, I wish that I could, but the reality is that I can't. If you can't or don't want to say what it is you are feeling and communicate it to me, then I cannot help or do anything about it.

maleficent

Commercial Time Out
For the record, if you break it down to boys and girls, I am a girl, and would throw myself off the top of the Empire State Building, or have a wiling friend push me off if I were to EVER act like that.

Though-- you say bitchy like it's a bad thing - -
Babe
In
Total
Control of
Herself

I am a proud bitch - however, I have the ability to state what my problem is when the problem occurs...

Now -- back to our regularly scheduled posting....

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Rlyss

Hi everyone. There have been a few changes as of tonight.

Just as I was leaving to go to a funeral today, she called me up to work out a few of our issues. I told her this wasn't a good time and that my car wouldn't start (needed a new battery) and I was going to be late for this funeral, an hours' drive away, so I really could not talk. She hung up on me.

Later tonight she came around with some of my stuff. She gave everything back, she told me how I was never going to change, I'm not affectionate, and that no matter what happens, we're not going to work out. I've been having a bad few weeks lately (problems with my parents' relationship, this funeral, various other things, and her and me) and told her these things and explained that she's right. I've got a lot on my plate, I try to be more 'there' for her but I know I can be very stubborn, and I also tend to be a pretty independent and bottle stuff up.

Anyway, from about 8.30pm until 2am we switched between arguing and hugging, and fighting and consoling, and agreeing to be friends and she declaring her hatred. A number of times she came crawling back to me, asking for me to try one more time, but I realized that she and I didn't function well at all. The good times were great, but the bad times were absolutely awful and seemed to be 80% of the time.

At one point she claimed she was going to sleep in the back seat of her car tonight, parked outside my house and come back tomorrow morning to see if I'd changed my mind. I ignored against my 'psycho-bitch from hell, run!' alarm and convinced her that she should go home instead.

We eventually left on semi-good terms. I know we're through, but she said that as far as she's concerned, we're not, and that she doesn't accept it. Far from convincing me how devoted she is to me, it did make question whether I'd wake up tomorrow with her leaning over my bed with a knife.

So we are over, I'm preparing myself for some awkward times in the future with mutual friends, but right now I'm going to bury myself in study, job-hunting, and exercise.

Right now I'm sitting here with a glass of Johnny Walker Red Label, I'm going to finish that off and jump into bed and wake up a new person.

I do feel awful about this, I know I have hardly said anything nice about her in this whole thread. At times she can be the most considerate, loving, exciting, caring, cuddly, clever, devoted woman you could ever hope for. But sometimes she was mean, and I know that often I was too stubborn, or distant, or quiet, or conservative, and this clashed all too often.

Thank you all for the replies in this thread. This has opened my eyes up a lot

maleficent

Relationships take work, but they shouldn't be hard. If it's too difficult then it's best to cut your losses before it gets too far. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, as long as you learn from them.

Good luck to you, be happy, hopefully she'll find someone who can give her what she needs. In the mean time Sara Lee Cheesecake is great for breakups.

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Cynthetiq

one can be nice 98% of the time.. and the 2% of it can taint and ruin the rest of the 98%.

good luck