Shauk

The problem is that MMORPG is an oxymoron

You can have an MMO and you can have an RPG, but it's not feasable to be both, and the reason I say that is Dragon Age pulls off the RPG mechanic awesomely, but that's because it's a single player game, You dont have to wait for the rest of your party to log in, or to travel from the other side of ferelden to continue your adventure, check their auctions, get their newest gear enchanted, finish the quest they were on before you logged in, finish the dungeon they were on before you logged in, finish cybering that night elf before they gain use of both hands for your raid, etc..

What's the point of trying to force an RPG playstyle in an MMO environment where everyone seems to suffer from ritalin withdrawals?

Borderlands is only a four player rpg type shooter and it's extremely annoying to try to sync up with people and their quests logs because the 1st person to the NPC will complete that quest dialogue before you can even read wtf the outcome of your quest was.


RPGS are good solo or on paper (because pacing is moderated by a GM, you can't make him skip his narration, or cut your party members off in the story advancement cuz they're all right there sharing the same input), I just think it's quite impossible to pace the RPG playstyle properly in an MMO fashion.

Baraka_Guru

No. I refuse to believe that MMORPG is an oxymoron. WoW made it one with their product, perhaps.

I just think that game developers haven't made one that works as such yet. I know that the average player in the "MM" part of the MMORPG will have less patience than a flea, but that doesn't mean RPGs have to be boring in a multiplayer context. It just has to be built appropriately.

I doubt it's impossible to create an online world with strong RPG elements that won't please a wide audience.

The bottom line is if you get bored at anytime..."You don't have to be here." Go off and find something you want to do in the world. Let people make their own experiences. WoW has unfortunately funnelled their experiences into a set number of game modes that are compartmentalized and repetitive.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Zeraph

They already have (original EverQuest), its just most people missed out on it for several reasons. 1. most didn't know about it. 2. it wasn't socially acceptable at the time 3. most of the expansions ruined it, especially planes of power so it only existed for a couple years or so, 4. most don't know roleplay, and 5. most don't get PvP


The problem with today's audience is that they expect roleplaying to be handed to them ala a set of hard coded options because they have no experience roleplaying themselves. If a developer creates a proper MMORPG with all the tools and open endedness a good roleplayer needs the rest will follow. We shouldn't have too many problem teaching the newb elite raiders how to have fun

Old EQ was such an adrenaline rush. I remember this one zone that you could only travel during the day because the undead came out at night and killed anyone they caught. This led to socializing at the safe area/zone entrance until daybreak, huddling together in the night. It was picture-esque roleplay. Instead of seeing it as an impatient omfg what a waste of time thing it was a chance to meet new characters.

Before all the crazy expansions that game was about having fun, people weren't as obsessed with stating out and leveling, etc.

I remember coming across a (PC) roleplaying an evil cleric that would heal his orc (NPCs) "allies" when you fought them, but he was part of my racial alliance (this was one of the pvp servers) so I had to find someone else of another race to form a temporary alliance to take down the evil cleric and "banish" him from the zone. Instead of crying to a GM about griefing this was instead turned into an awesome roleplay experience and was fun instead of "nerdrage omfg /wrists." Instead of getting phat loots which I'd replace in a few levels from this I got a memorable experience.

Another time a high level troll warrior came into the low level starting zone and started going to town on anyone who ventured out alone. Again, instead of /nerdrage: oh noes a challenge, the entire zone of lowbies banded together and took him on like some epic raid encounter! He got many of us, corpses littered the ground, but in the end we brought him down. So much fun, and someone even got some nice loot (one of the pvp servers that allowed looting).

I literally have dozens of these *very* memorable experiences from original EQ. I played WoW just as long and can't remember even one nearly as good. I *really* hope another open ended/challenging/roleplayable MMORPG comes out again so the rest of you can know what a true MMORPG is all about.

PS Shauk I'm a little surprised at some of your comments after hearing your positive review toward Demon Souls being a nice challenge.

Shauk

Demons souls was a single player game, not even comparable.

MMO's revolve around real world co-ordination & scheduling with other people, usually a LOT of other people, throwing arbitrary 45 minute travel times for the sake of an expansive world feel is artificial and pisses people off.

high_jinx

just read this whole thread, it was a good read. i'm inclined to agree with all the points made that would make a better game. i have a few to add/expand on too.

1) lately i've switched over to d&d online. it's a lot like wow just without the pvp. i'm liking it because it's modelled exactly off the pen and paper games i played as a kid in terms of monsters and rolls for actions.

2 things about it that are BETTER than wow to me are the variety of quests and the traps. the traps are awesome, there's tons of different kinds, and you really jump when you spring one. straight up indiana jones.

they go hand in hand with the philosophy of making quests require a certain class to get through them. i like ddo that way. some are so monster heavy you need a tank, and some are so trap heavy you need a rogue. it makes you feel more special when your party relies on you that way.

another big area thats kind of been mentioned is A.I. I want mobs that react smarter. that help their friends, take cover, flank, etc. this is a big area wow could improve on.

finally, i'm an alt-o-holic, and i'd love to see more abilities and class/talent specialization. people in wow spec more cookie cutter than their gear even. i think they could take pages out of ddo and runes of magic to help that along.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

Baraka_Guru

I think it was in reference to the challenge aspect. The thing about the real world coordination and scheduling is a problem in WoW because in that game, you control the world as though you were some kind of visitor in a theme park. A more authentic experience would be something that is constantly attempting to control you, except you do what you can to prevent that from happening. Much of that will involve either being extremely goddamn resourceful as either a lone wolf or a leader, helping out those in the vicinity who will either band with you, abandon you, or simply cause more problems.

WoW doesn't value spontaneity. Which is why I often see broadcast over channels: "Must be geared. Must know the battles."

What? You must know exactly what to bring? You must know the battles? What is this, an adventure or a history exam?

* * * * *

Zeraph, I'm really sorry I missed out on that EQ experience. I also pine after similar experiences I've had playing on an RP world via Neverwinter Nights. It was a really small scale, and had limited mechanics, so I'd like to see anything similar on a larger scale.

I think it comes down to preferred gaming experiences. Some really enjoy the canned experiences that WoW offers. Some, like me, don't take it too seriously, and are just looking for some fun gaming. But I'm sure there is a swath of people who want to see something really geared up towards a multiplayer world that responds in ways we've never seen before. I can't quite ariticulate how it would work at the moment. All I know is that there must be something more sophisticated coming down the pipeline. I wonder what Blizzard is unhatching with their next-gen. I wonder how TOR will play overall. The next couple of years should bring us something, I hope.

Maybe I should just see if there's anything quaint happening on a Neverwinter Nights 2 server in the meantime.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Reese

Zeraph, WOW doesn't lack special moments. My friend and I were leveling alts in Northrend. My level 70 Death Knight and his 70 Rogue had just finished a quest and while mounting up on our ground mounts we see this level 80 rogue dismount from his flying mount and disappear in mid air right above us. We both got mounted and took off toward town before he could lock either of us down. We see him reappear and mount back up on his flying mount and he's catching up to us. I hit Path of Frost and we both take off running across the lake while mounted. I tell my friend as soon as we hit land, dismount and stealth and we're going to take him. I hit land and turn around to get him in line of sight. My friend hits land and stealths. As soon as to rogue's in range I hit him with my only ranged spell which puts him in combat and prevents him from stealthing. He comes at me and I blow my defensive cooldowns and then my friend jumps in and goes all out on the guy. The 80 rogue blows his defensive cooldowns while still doing a lot of damage to me even through my tanking and completely defensive playing. I'm hanging around 50% to 75% health getting lucky with Death Strikes, Rune Tap, Health pot, and Mark of Blood. All of those are health restoring cooldowns if you aren't up to date on WoW spells. After about 20 seconds the rogue's at about half health but he doesn't have any cooldowns left and I don't either. This is when he made a mistake. He must have figured I could hang out at 75% health forever and he switched to my attacking my friend as soon as he was about to start doing massive damage to me. My friend blows all his defensive cooldowns and about we get the rogue down about the time my friend runs out of defensive abilities. Now, This example wasn't a 20 vs 1 but it's just one of the many things in the game that make me say Feck ya!

I thought that story was shorter, hmm..

Anyway, WOW has it's moments. I've had some awesome times the last couple months PVPing on my feral druid with my friends. Just Lock + Feral druid in BG is about 90% chance to win. Throw in our Priest and we don't lose. Throw in our mage/prot warrior friend and we just dominate ANY BG - even AV and Isle. The last few months has been almost as fun as the classic days leveling with the TFP bunch on Bleeding Hollow.

I can see WOW going for at least another 5 years. Sure people that's played the game for years will leave but there's going to be people to take their place and new content to play. People that haven't played classic WOW aren't really at a disadvantage compared to people who did. Each Expansion is a fresh start or new end game and sometimes refreshing the old world like the next expansion. Heck, Even small changes to the leveling system made it more fun to level characters. The new quest hub they added in Dustwallow marsh a while back, increased XP from quests and kills along with heirloom items means you can skip some of the really stressful leveling areas that just aren't fun. My last character with 20% xp from heirlooms skipped Western and Eastern Plaguelands, Blasted Lands, Badlands, Burning steppes, Silithus, and barely touched Winterspring. He hit 70 in Nagrand and skipped Stonetalon, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon Valley. He hit 80 in Zul Drak leaving a completely untouched Storm Peaks and Icecrown. Doing those quests at 80 made me a few thousand gold which is still funding my PVPing.

Icecrown has some really good quests. I wish there were more quests like them in less nasty areas. It really is one of those areas where you think you have it under control and you get knocked back or pulled into a group of mobs and you're lucky to survive. The only thing about those quests though is that with the extreme use of phasing it's not as easy to get the group quests finished because you can only have people that have that part of the quest to help. Actually, It's kind of lead me to meet a few people because instead of just finding someone and getting it down super quick and disbanding before even talking to them, You'll find someone 2-3 steps behind or ahead of you and you can help each other get caught up and you actually spend time and talk to them. It goes against the instant gratification effect blizzard likes to give players but I think it may be better in the long run.

ok.. Nuff said.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

Zeraph

Like BG said it was more in reference to the challenge aspect. Also, the point I've been trying to get at is that it has only about 1/10th to do with the 'expansive world' part of the equation. The issues you brought up only come up when their is such an extensive focus on gearing up and leveling up. i.e. traveling gets in the way of it. But what if travel was an inherent/fun part of the game? It's a very rough correlation but think of real life and how road trips can be fun.

Try to imagine what an *extensive* MMORPG would be like with no gear or levels, sound boring? Ok, now imagine real life, except you can do anything you want, play any role you want, and not have to deal/feel any of the real suffering or real consequences. Sounds a lot more interesting now, no? Of course the ideal game could still have some form of levels and gear, it just needs to focus on it a lot less, or rather, focus on the other parts equally rather than completely pushing them to the side.

You can have an extensive big world and have fun too. They just need to make it so that the travel experience itself is just as fun as the rest of the game by doing the things (and a few others) I've talked about. An MMORPG can be challenging, big, *and* fun.

Reese- I had moments like that as well when I played WoW, otherwise I wouldn't have played it for ~3 years, but tbh they didn't hold a candle to my old EQ experiences.


(I so wish I could design an MMORPG, I have soooo many ideas).

Lasereth

Yes!!!! I did the same thing. EQ brought moments that I still remember to this day, 10 years later. I agree with Baraka -- you're controlling the world in WoW; in EQ the world is controlling you, just like IRL. EQ felt like you were living in true, living world where real danger is around the corner, not just a roflcopter repair bill and a short hike from the graveyard.

WoW does feel like a theme park.

It's really hard to describe the feeling of playing Everquest but it was totally different from WoW (in a good way). Traveling through unknown lands to some place that you had no idea what to expect was actually fun. Traveling in WoW is boring, I totally agree with that. Running to SM is ridiculously boring. Running to MC is boring. These are real complaints, but what I'm saying is that in EQ, it wasn't boring. EQ found the perfect way to give depth to the world. In EQ, you respected the environment and respected the game world because you knew it had power over you. In WoW, it's let me hop on my mount and plow through 50 mobs at once because I'm so fast, and even if I do die, I just have to pay some gold and be on my way.

I do like that Blizzard is trying to make the game more open to people with short amounts of time to play, but something was lost in the transition.

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Cynthetiq

Because it's annoying to have someone join your group only to cause you to fail. You can take 40 level 80 well geared people to AQ40 which is Pre-BC, and if they do not know the fight, they will not clear that instance. Period. It is important to know how to fight the twins, if you don't, you fail. It doesn't take everyone either, just some, but when it's no one, you can't fake it, til you make it. It's fail from the beginning they just didn't know it yet.

Naxx is a good example. I only have 3 hours of game time an evening. I don't want to spend 2 hours to get only 1 wing down. That's a waste of time. It's also a waste of time to explain the encounter to someone who isn't prepared, especially when there are intricate multiphased fights that require different tasks or focuses for each member.

It used to be that you had to buy a book from Brady Games that explained how the encounters worked. Today, you've got Tankspot.com, WowHead.com, wowwiki.com not only do you have descriptive written strats, but you have people who have taken video of the encounters for you to watch, listen, and learn.

Now there are plenty of people that will explain it over and over because they pug so much. I left a guild that did just that. It took many hours extra to do things that good players that learned and understood their characters and the encounters would.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Zeraph

Yeah, exactly Laserath, WoW is like a theme park. It's like the difference between astronaut camp (WoW) and actually going into orbit around the earth (EQ). One might be a nice way to spend a weekend but the other would yield life long memories.

And to be clear, running around in WoW was very boring 95% of the time.

Cyn, not harping on you specifically, because I was the same way when playing WoW (better know your stuff, don't wipe the group) but don't you see something inherently wrong with that picture? Doing homework for a game? Not sure how we could fix that either, that's a tough one. Perhaps much more randomness so its impossible to "study" for anything. Like literally, somehow balance it so that random boss abilities and encounter powers were randomly paired with dungeons. A programming nightmare but talk about replayability! Basically same skins and atmosphere to keep with lore and quests but everything else would be different, different passageways, different mob types, etc.

Cynthetiq

There's something inherently wrong with protecting my game time to make sure that I control the quality of my experience? This is magnified in a 25 man group because you're begging on 24 other people's time. 10 man, 9 people, 5, 4 more people...

Seriously I'm not interested in playing in an instance with someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of the fight. Encounters aren't all tank and spank zergs. There are some that require uses of strategies, there are some that require splitting up into 2 teams each team doing something different in different locations. Why am I going to risk failure when I only have 3 hours of play time?

I'm not so happy to pug with people, in fact a successful pug gets a name on a friend list and usually that's where I'm looking for people second to looking within the guild.

Blizzard tries to deal with some of this via the new Dungeon Finder which replaces the LFG tool.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

I think this was in reference to how the game is constructed, not in how you structure your own time. We get why you do what you do. This isn't a flaw in players like you; this is a flaw in the game. You have to study, know, and have experience in a particular raid in order for it to succeed. You basically have to know pretty much what is going to happen or it's not worth your time.

Don't you find that boring and repetitive? And a little bit unrealistic, if not plastic and prepackaged?

It doesn't seem that way. You seem to enjoy it regardless. Well, then, let me ask you something else: Wouldn't you enjoy an alternative that was dynamic and spontaneous on a grand scale?

I personally see little value in replaying the same battles over and over again. I'd rather dynamism and the surprise and novelty factor of randomness: essentially a world that is alive and constantly evolving.

Yes, WoW is like a theme park.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lasereth

PUKE!!!!! Seriously??? Traveling in WoW is so boring that they're taking it out of the game? Now it's even more like a level-based console game. There is no world to explore now, no moments of grandeur while traveling with friends, just instant-port to the dungeon, do it, go back to the auction house.

There is so much wrong with that. In EQ, porting was sacred, it cost you a lot of money to take a precious port, and only certain classes could port. They used this port ability to make money and finance themselves, while other classes used THEIR useful abilities to finance themselves. No class is special in WoW. Everybody can port home, and making a portal as a mage is a joke of a cost, and now you can simply go directly to the instances and back. It shouldn't be like this.

I'm beginning to think more and more that the huge amount of classes and races available that all have distinct, useful, and individual skills are what makes MMORPGs fun and engaging. In WoW everything and everyone is the same, chasing after the same thing in the same way.

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Baraka_Guru

Lasereth, at this point in WoW's history, everyone is just after the end-game anyway, right?

Isn't that why it's easier to be low levels now? And why mounts are cheaper and can be obtained at lower levels? And why teleporting has been slowly opened up?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Shauk

Well this patch pulled me out of my anti-wow mode long enough to try it, I actually enjoy the new LFG tool. Cry all you want, but it's nice to get 3 runs done in an hour because it cuts all the bullshit timesink mechanics out. I'm finally getting the game time I pay for in that month. The way I see it, i'm making up for the last 5 years of manual travel time.

Cynthetiq

what realistic? you mean that there aren't dragons walking around in the world and people just can't conjure firebreathing dragon heads to bonk you on the head?

It's a game, it's a game dynamic. Every boss encounter isn't identical, but it is predictable to a point, but that doesn't mean that it can be completely succeeded on first try.

No I don't want a game dynamic that is always evolving and random because then it isn't a puzzle to figure out. If there's no need for strategy then it's a matter of just zerging right on through. It's a matter of having a random encounter that wasn't as hard a particular time.

You're interested in just about 1/2 of the game itself since you're not interested in raiding. Raiding at 10 man level is not the same as raiding at the 25 man. The encounters are more random as you would put it, and even add the hard modes, even more random. Sartharion 3 drakes up is a nice challenge to just differentiate from regular Sartharion. Ulduar with hard modes, really challenging. Heroic 25 man Trail of the Crusader, 50 attempts per week first 3 bosses on a 9 minute timer, requiring you to down the bosses perfectly in roughly 2 minute timers until the next boss. Don't down it, next boss shows up and you deal with all of them.

Also, since they patch pretty often releasing new areas and instances. There is still the Sunwell area where I haven't complete, same with Black Temple from BC. While it is somewhat easy, again like with AQ40 it's not an instant win. Heck even BWL can't be completed by geared 80s unless they know the fights.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Zeraph

Cyn reread what I said, I agreed with you and said I did the same thing in WoW.

I don't think anyone wants instant wins. In fact I want the exact opposite. We don't want repetitive encounters we need to study out of game for... And how wouldn't it be a puzzle? It'd be a new puzzle every time. A puzzle isn't a puzzle if you already know the answer like WoW.

We seem to have a communication problem.

Cynthetiq

rubik's cube is still a puzzle even if you know the answer. getting it done in the most efficient time, or while playing guitar hero makes for a different challenge but still doesn't change that it's a puzzle.

I don't study for the encounter any more than I am just being aware of what to expect. I just died from something as simple as not hiding behind a rock in one of the new instances. Sucked to be me, the rest of the guildies forged on and downed the boss. I felt stupid for not knowing to hide behind the rock even after DBM announced it as a raid warning.

---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

knowing the answer doesn't mean you can execute the answer.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

No, but some semblance of space and time should be maintained, even in a fantasy world. WoW has everything set in a jack-in-the-box.

This is beside the point. I know why it is what it is, but I want something else.

It can be both dynamic and a puzzle to figure out. A strategy can be applied to something not very predictable. There's Plan Bs and Plan Cs, and maybe even a Plan9, and other what-ifs. If you know how the the enemy already works down to the stats, you just need the stats to match them and a bit of skill to win. Is there any learning going on in the process? Are there any surprises and overcoming any real challenges?

The WoW model of canned experiences will get old before much longer, especially if something groundbreaking comes along.

I bet you I'd have fun doing this. I just don't know if I'll ever get into it. I don't know the first step in getting there. (Do I need to put together a resume?)

But this talk of 10-man/25-man and "bosses" on timers.... I get it. But I really do think there is far more to come in gaming in the near future. It's just a matter of time.

The original Castlevania was fun and challenging. [And, yes, so is the "predictable" win of the Rubik's Cube.] But it's not the kind of game I'm interested in anymore. Things change; they get more elaborate; and they tap into our imagination, our need to analyze things, and how much we like to process information and solve things...and beat them.

Games have gone from simple puzzle-type entities to something far more. They're social, even. The next generation of games will bring us something closer to reality. By this I don't mean the mundane. I mean something more akin to the physics that we understand all too well, and the sophisticated way the elements of the universe respond to our words and actions, whether they are inanimate objects or fantastical lifeforms.

I'm guessing five years from now, we'll be looking at WoW as something quaint and nostalgic. I'm sure you'll still be able to play it if you really wanted to.

But something else is coming. It has to. There's no reason to stop at WoW.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Shauk

I think the difference between us is some of you are asking for things that have no bearing on character development or efficient use of time, in fact, quite the opposite, you're requesting features that would increase the amount of time you spend not gainfully playing your character. Stuck on a ship, or on a journey somewhere.

there is a balance when it comes to strategy. If it's stupid enough that you can brute your way through it without knowing the encounter, it's not going to be fun or hold my attention. If it takes a while to co-ordinate the execution, it's going to be much more meaningful to everyone who downs it.

the thing is, you want your groups to be equally skilled.

After you're past the "experience" of downing that boss, you're now expected to be able to repeat that performance. You and your peers have proven to eachother that you have what it takes to work together to overcome that strategy.

Dont kid yourself, not everything in this game is reduced to boss killer websites, even with those sites up there, there are many guilds who still have not completed Ulduar, or ToC, even after reading or watching the video, simply because they play with less skilled/nongamer oriented individuals.


I was in the 3rd most advanced guild on our server (which as of the end of the 3.2 cycle was #3rd most progressed realm in the US) so I'm rather familiar with progression raids and mindsets. (everything is in a scramble right now since apparently damn near all the raiding guilds have cleared the 4 bosses up on the 1st day.)


Back to the original subject, I don't think wow will be dethroned by any upcoming MMO's on the horizon at the moment. The only MMO franchise that stood a chance to get ME was the Fallout franchise and that's so mired in legal bullshit and conflict that it'll likely never make it past the concept art stage.

They've already said, whoever cannibalizes the WoW playerbase, isn't going to do it by imitating WoW.

That said, I'm pretty tired of MMO's I play through the dungeons a few times and get some average gear and then I usually kick off for a few months and wait for the next thing to interest me. I pretty much had my pickings in ulduar and didn't feel like fussing with the ToC patch, My gear is fine for ICC apparently since I geared my character well.

Cynthetiq

Some of the new instances are big enough that you drive siege weapons or mounts. Walking through Ulduar is humongous. Ice Crown Citadel is equally huge so far.

I don't need to travel the zones again and again and again....Do you think that people who live in Hawaii actually just keep paying attention to the scenery? i did that over and over for questing. i don't see the point for raiding or even doing the heroic dungeons. Nothing is stopping you or a person like you from walking from point A to point B.

---------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 PM ----------

and here's what my guild's link has for tonight 10 man ICC. I don't see how much this is really like studying your opponent. I don't think reading a little to know what to expect is such a burden.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Lasereth

BTW WoW will be around for 10 more years. Guarantee it.

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Shauk

It wont be the same wow, i'm sure. They've talked about doing a graphic overhaul to try and keep it visually relevant.

Though I still remember the old Ogre models vs the new ones. What an outcry that caused...

The alpha screenshots of wow were a lot higher polycount than the current release so it's fairly safe to say they have a nice amount of those art assets taken care of already.

Lasereth

EQ is around 10 years later with a playerbase still in the hundreds of thousands. WoW's playerbase is still growing...in 10 years I wouldn't be surprised if 1,000,000 people were still playing it.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Zeraph

Shauk and Cyn, I don't get it. Are you defending WoW? Or arguing it is the perfection of gaming? This thread is about what the next gen is going to be about. Its not an attack on WoW. I don't care what item or product you name, something better will come along. Despite how it may sound this is not a review of WoW, Laserath, me and BG have all been players of WoW and enjoyed our experience. This thread is about speculation and WoW need not be defended.

Shauk- You're looking at it wrong about "optimizing" your time. Your making gaming sound like a job. It's about having fun. The zen quote about life being about the journey and not the destination really applies here. If the end objective is fun, then it doesn't matter how you get there whether it be traveling on a boat or whatever. The end objective is not about killing the boss or getting max level and all loot. Think about how long you'd play an MMORPG if you were completely maxed out from second 1 of playing.

Again, (to cyn and shauk mostly) this has nothing to do with creating scenery. It's about creating atmosphere and mood. Gaming is like making love; its important to set the atmosphere and mood with a little music and a conducive environment, ya dig?

Shauk

Speaking for myself, I don't think the game needs me to defend it, it's doing fine regardless of my input. I think it's doing what it's doing correctly, despite the dissent. I hate the game but that's just personal reasons. Nothing they do will change the fact that it's simply there to devour your time and take your money.


The only reason people are going on about what WoW is doing right is because people are trying to suggest that doing things to the contrary would make for a better next gen game, I disagree,. That's all. Again, not defending wow exactly, but acknowledging that I would prefer wow's way of handling certain aspects of the game compared to the ideas presented in this thread.


I'm the kind of person who has fun by being challenged, and finding myself in the unique position to "be that guy" to turn the tide, the hero, and play in just the right way to overcome the odds.

Sometimes I wind up in severely undergeared situations, where my healer can't possibly be expected to keep me up. That isn't fun.

Sometimes I wind up in severely overgeared situations, where the challenge is completely nonexistent and we just rape everything in our path. That isn't fun.

Sometimes we're adequate, and something goes horribly wrong. and everyone but me dies, and I go through an impossible sequence of kiting, evasion cooldowns, pet management, consumables and environmental manipulation to finish off the encounter.

THAT is the only time I have fun. That is the spontaneous situation I enjoy.
Everyone can know the fight, but thngs can still go wrong.

There is nothing skillful about flying/boating from point A to point B in an MMO, environments are non interactive eye candy and I don't find staring at them, be it from the back of my achievement rewarded proto-drakes, or on the rails of a predetermined scheduled ferry, to be challenging, rewarding, or enriching my gameplay.

The only thing I looked forward to on the boat rides in FFXI was the pirate attacks, and even that was pretty static.

They can do that, but the option to bypass it in favor of efficiency needs to be present for me to consider it fair to all parties involved. Some of us don't get off on the polygon simulation of traveling.

Again I think we're confusing the distinction between RPG and MMORPG

The only time we give a goddamn about our "environment" is when we're solo playing (ok maybe duo-ing), farming, questing, etc...

When you have 5+ people involved, environment takes a back seat, you are there to do a task, you are there to overcome the challenge inside the chosen instance, you put your game face on, and bring forth your knowledge of the class to the table to make sure the other sad sacks who got saddled with you are not viewing it as a misfortunate situation instead of an enjoyable experience.

Frosstbyte

While it's all well and good that you think that, you're absolutely wrong if you think all WoW players think that. The backlash over the 1 room raid that was ToC should tell you everything you need to know about how WoW players feel about atmosphere. People bitched endlessly about how boring MC looked. Same with AQ40. Even worse with ToC. People who play this game care ENORMOUSLY about how the environment looks, no matter how many other people they're playing with. One of the things that has really set apart the good raids from the bad is how immersive and real they've felt other than as a place to kill some mobs.

wolfboy2

i am a WoW player from the start and whats getting me looking else where is the peaple playing it. there getting rude snobby and plain assholes on the 2 servers i play on. Now with all the addons it almost plays itself. ive gotten to the point that im looking elsewhere becouse of the players.

Cynthetiq

I don't think that anyone here has said that it's how all players think. It's simple to believe that there is going to be a selection of 11M that do, and a selection of 11M that don't. To call it a backlash, means something more than just complaining, and I don't see any or have never seen any backlash. Backlash implies a lot more than just complaint, but also that something would happen to affect change by the complaint, even acknowledgment that there was some flaw or issue.

During MC most subscribers computers couldn't handle the existing polygon count. No vanity pets, no extra this or that... it was a freakin' cave. It was also no the end. Just like AQ40 was not the end, and ToC isn't the end.

TOC was probably the most imaginative in the circles and articles that I've read because no one expected that line of the story to unfold. Not only that but the idea that there were no trashmobs, just boss after boss after boss was pretty different after playing Naxx for 6 months.

And that's what I think the NEXT game would require. The benefit of scaling up and down for the user base that it wants to have. Not everyone wants to have powerful computers with next gen vid cards to see the beauty of the game. Some just want the game play. Some what the lore. Others want the combination. Some want the hardcore experience, others want the ability to have the experience without the timesink.

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Zeraph

I just want to make sure I'm clear one more time cause it still doesn't seem like I am. I don't want particularly high end graphics or time-sinks or scenery. In fact if a game came out with graphics circa original WoW (or even original EQ, so long as its 3D) but had the gameplay and immerisiveness I was looking for I'd have no problem playing it. Time-sinks for the sake of time-sinks are dumb. But when I play an MMORPG I want to feel like I'm part of an epic, breathing, living world. That's just not the case with any current MMORPGs. They all feel the complete opposite of real. More like playing Call of Duty with dragons.

Lasereth

In WoW, even after spending over 3,000 hours on my Warrior before BC came out, I sat in IF trying to see how many flips I could do in a row with my NE. I did that because the actual game outside of raiding was boring. No reason to go anywhere because it wasn't fun or engaging. Just being in the game world itself was bland and felt static. Raiding I admit was fun but there has to be more than that. Players should want to leave the AH and travel the world if there's nothing left to do, just to explore and discover new things, and in WoW that wasn't possible. Part of it I think is the third person perspective that let you pull the camera all the way back so you're sorta detached from the world, almost like playing an adventure game. I don't see a way to combat this while making the character control system as perfect as WoW's but it's something I hope is revolutionized in the future.

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Zeraph

Yeah, that's a great point actually. I really miss the first person perspective even though most games do it rather horribly. That's just one of those mechanical/programming things we'll have to wait for some genius to come up with a solution.

Reese

I don't think 3rd person view is the problem. A lot has changed since Classic, Lasereth. You can spend a couple hours a day doing daily quests. Wintergrasp every 2ish hours gets you out of town for some PVP. They just added a new fishing tournament for Wednesdays at primetime instead of Noon Sunday and that kinda gets people out of the city.

I'd like to see even more though. I think they need to up the rewards for ALL PVP areas to max level to attract people to them. The PVP zone in Grizzly hills is REALLY fun but the rewards take quite a few visits and since it's level 76 I've outleveled it on all my characters before I ever got to buy a piece of gear from them. Just Up the cost of the items and make them require honor and their tokens and scale the gear with other level 80 PVP gear. That'd keep people coming back.

I think they need to other events throughout the day too and the rewards need to good enough to get people to leave town.

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Cynthetiq

I thought I've traveled most of Northrend, and here I just discovered a new place. Hrothgar's Landing. I don't know what quests are here. but it's brand new to me.

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Shauk

i found a place, didn't catch the name, had some tauren in a cave, little spark flame elemental things and weird rifts in the air. looked like a good place to farm fire.

some cave in far N.E. Storm Peaks. Never been in that one before.

Nobody is ever there either.

MC wasn't as boring as the actual trash in there. Earth elemental #275721 and Fire elemental #257473 and then bosses that used the same model only... *gasp* bigger.

ToC is visually boring, agreed, but then again, I dont expect much from an arena type raid. (this is also why i prefer BG's vs arena)

I thought AQ40 was awesome. Screw everyone else.

Gabbyness

AQ 20 was my favorite zone and 40 my least Ha.

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Shauk

I just loved AQ40's 1st boss, back then ret paladins were shunned, looked down upon, and not taken in to raiding guilds.

I had the fortunate occurance of being MC'd by the boss, which had the wonderful side effect of making me as big as the boss. Our mages were quite stupid and just allowed me to run around smashing the raid with my sulfuras, our raid leader nearly had an anuerysm because our mages let it happen and didn't poly me at any point. Of course it was only after I violated his face that he said anything about it.

I found it to be a point of joy because even though I was tolerated with my off spec, I wasn't entirely embraced, and upset many of the "pure dps" classes with the fact that I would outdo them on the meters so i'd still catch a snide comment here and there about me being the "Retardin"

It feel so good to kill them. so good.

Gabbyness

I pretty much stopped playing WoW right around the time the BC talents came out and Ret pallies became ball-smashing freak-shows. Is that still the case these days?

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One, two, three, four, fiiiiiiiifth.

Shauk

Yes and no. Seal of command does less than it used to back in the ball smashing days, and the pve dps seal is worthless in pvp. They're still hard as hell to kill