ratbastid

"Attack" is in the eye of the beholder, gents. Same behavior could also be called "tough love".

As I started my first post on this thread with (a sentiment that evidently didn't hold up under the heat of the rest of the post), I said to him EXACTLY what I wish somebody'd said to me when things were going that way in my relationship, in EXACTLY the way I wish they'd said it. It would have stung, but it would have made a difference.

Daniel_

Whilst I agree that it may have seemed overly hard, I think that the thread has gone deeper than the simple (but true) advice that he should reduce the pressure.

I think that there were some good points raised here about communication, satisfaction, the insidiousness of being romantic only in order that she have sex (or if not "only" then at least "partly").

My take on this thread is that the OP is in a place many of us have inhabited previously and some of us were trying to show him the map of how to get out of it.

"Take care of it yourself" is a METHOD, but it's not a ROUTE.

I hope that makes sense.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Aladdin Sane

I had a terrible feeling when I first read this thread, but until I came back this morning and saw this quote I didn't know why. Spectre you've nailed it. What's up with TFP'ers congratulating each other on being unnecessarily harsh to other members? Geez.

This is not to say that the advice given by some is not good advice.

The groupthink and/or piling on that often characterizes the Political forum is now showing its ugliness here.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Starkizzer

I think most of the responders here tried to tell him the key was communication just in different ways. Perhaps not all were done with the most tact or sensitivity. I know in my case I tried to give him an insight on his situation by discussing my own which seems to resemble his very closely.

Also it seems to me that most of the responses to posters problems, especially those with SO's, is just communication. There are only so many ways we can say "go talk to the other person". However if were that easy I'm sure most people are bright enough to do just that, they must be coming to tilted for more than just the same old "communicate" advice. IMO people request advice and opinions on things because they want just that advice and opinions from fellow tfp'ers. I've also noticed lately that a stock answer to some peoples' requests or questions is googleing it. I think thats more lame than a group of members who have not talked before hand giving their advice that seems to be the same.

I was honestly expecting other members to come on and give different views but it appears that only the ones with the same opinion posted. Maybe "driving home" an opinion is a bit much but I would think that it might show his gf is not alone in her thoughts but nor is he alone in his thoughts and wants of wanting more sex, just very few told him so.

I know I wasn't trying to belittle him, hell I want more sex than I am giving out but everything else in my life is preventing me from achieving this. Everyone wants more sex I think or at least likes the idea of it. I hope and cheer for him that he does get more and hope its from the girls he so seems to love. So I guess what I'm saying ultimately is good luck cajeff!

__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

Daniel_

+1

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Iliftrocks

Almost my experience exactly. My quite healthy sex drive was killed during my marriage. I quit pressuring her for sex, and gave her massages, made her dinner, etc. etc. She just took my lack of insistence as a get out of sex free card, and just quit. I became self-sufficient, heh ( and ouch ). Getting sex out of a sense of duty isn't much better, if it is, than masturbation......

But damn man, 2 or 3 times a week is GOOD!!!! Try 2 or 3 times a year


EDIT: Before I sound like a complete douche.... I stuck it out for years, and finally we're divorced. I have reason to believe that her lack of drive was that I was the wrong gender for her. I learned this from evidence on my computer that she left behind. Wish she felt confident enough in me to tell me, but I guess it takes time..... I still love her, and don't blame her for what she has no control over, but the damage ( mostly self esteem ) seems to be done to me. More time for hobbies I guess..... My experience is not universal

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Cimarron29414

Ask not what your relationship can do for you, ask what you can do for your relationship.

Seriously, your entire OP is focused on "me, me, me!" I found my marriage to be far more fulfilling when I learned that it was my job to "give" to my wife. When you want to give, you suddenly listen to what you need to give. This creates a better understanding of your mate and your focus on giving and making her life easier will eliminate many of the stressors that disrupt her life and intimacy. Take your focus off of what you want, and you may just end up with the exact thing THAT you want. Your "me, me, me" attitude is the common element to countless failed relationships world-wide.

Disclaimer: Focusing on giving should not mean allowing yourself to be taken advantage of.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Iliftrocks

Thanks for the disclaimer. A lot of the posts here, not just in this thread, SEEM to imply that you should just do everything for the woman, BUT there are two people in a relationship. What is the woman doing for you? ( please don't just read sex into that, either ) It's just as important for a man to be treasured by his partner, right? Quite often men get left out of that equation, and all they have left is sex, which is pitiful.

But again, be realistic, there are pressures ( on both people ) and they are not always conducive to a teenage-type sextravaganza. If sex truly drops down to zero, and it can, let me tell you, then you really do have a problem.

bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

heh

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Starkizzer

I agree that in no way should it be all about one person in the relationship. For instance, while im2smrt4u may not get sex nearly as often as he would like I try to show him I appreciate him and love him in other ways. I cook us diner every night, I do the laundry, go with him to by his fancy beers (can't carry very many on a motorcycle) and the list goes on. He does nice things for me as well and while we may not always do what the other person would like to show our love to each other we do try and know that the things we do are out of love.

So now its just a matter of tweaking what we do to be more in line with what the other person would like. Steven's late grandma, I miss that woman, said she read a book that talked about how every one feels love in different ways and needs those things to feel truly loved. For some it is touch, others its time, talking, etc. I think there were 5 in total but I don't remember them all. Steven is definitely touch while I am time and talking. Its important to figure out what the other person needs and what you need as well.

__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

canuckguy

Everyone is basically telling this guy to stop pressuring his girlfriend to have sex. I think good advice, better ways to get the pussy than putting pressure on it!

But i have a feel this post above is what the reality is for most men in similar situations, not that the women is the closest/denial like above but that if he stops pressuring it will go to zero sex life.

Not sure what to say, but i think 2-3 times a week is not that bad assuming a busy schedule...etc.



there are two people in a relationship (or three if your ratbastid). A lot of the responses make it seem like he is to give up everything he wants and wait on her hand and foot in hopes the pussy carrot comes out in the end. Or if he simple turns off his sexual desires she'll become an animal!

Someday like above those men will realize there giving everything, giving up everything but getting nothing back in return. A relationship consists of two people's wants/needs and desires. If someone's is not being fulfilled then trouble is a brewing regardless of how many times you do the laundry or take her out to dinner.

high_jinx

i'm horrified by how emasculated men have become in general. sure, every relationship has it's individual traits and every couple will get various different things they need out of being with each other. that said, the whole point of a relationship is abstaining from sex with everyone else so that the 2 of you can grow more intimate emotionally in a secure environment. with that comes a responsibility to fullfill your partners needs. otherwise, why commit?

i say you set the bar early, and as a man it's your job to do that and stick to your guns when tested on the boundaries you set. in general, women have a fundamental need for mostly emotional attention and men have the same need of physical affection. relationships get very damaged when either partner withholds one from the other, especially as punishment or "as a weapon".

i don't think it's unreasonable at all to establish "sex-on-demand" in any relationship. the complication comes when you don't define this kind of thing and than fight over where to set the bar your whole relationship after that.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

nooly

wow, talk about enthusiastically missing the point.

you said it yourself: "women have a fundamental need for mostly emotional attention and men have the same need of physical affection."
the point that has been made repeatedly on this thread is that a man shouldn't expect 'sex on demand' (nice, by the way) without fulfilling the emotional needs of his partner.

the fact that you frame female reluctance towards sex as 'withholding...as punishment or as a weapon' indicates a certain level of immaturity in your outlook which is amply reflected in the rest of your post.

Plan9

Immaturity from who? Oh, yeah... from sex partners who wanna play emotional chess.

I disagree with your conclusion. People aren't that smart. We often use our partner's weaknesses against them like petty little children who know the right names to call our enemies to hurt them, ya big loser-face. Despite the fact that every sex therapist, shrink, TeeVee doctor, and magazine from Cosmo to Men's Health says that partners on the rocks shouldn't cut off sex activities, women sometimes do it anyway because they figure it's a real attention-getter for the man in their life. I could be wrong, I read somewhere that women enjoy sex as much as men despite the fact that their urges are more emotional instead of more "animal."

Sex-B-Gone! Oh, it's an attention-getter, alright... the wrong f'n kind. It's the kind of situation that makes the guy think he's being cheated on, that there are deep psychological issues at play beyond just the bullshit excuse of "I'm not 100% happy," and that he'd be better staying single next time instead of turning his access to intimacy from mutual desire into a bloody Rorschach test every goddamn time. The frustration of having a partner who shuts down physically as well as emotionally is devastating. It is my belief that a prolonged lack of physical affection in a relationship is simply the "turned off" partner creating an emotional buffer so they don't feel as bad when they spread the good news of, "You're single again! Yay! Now here's some trash bags for your worldly possessions! Kthxbai!"

It's one thing to feel like crap about a relationship and tell your partner that you're not happy because of x, y, z... but when you treat your partner like you've already kicked them to the curb and they've not been formally clued in as to why, that's immature.

If I've learned one thing from TFP since I've been here: "When the sex goes, so should you."
-----Added 18/1/2009 at 12 : 03 : 06-----
Maybe it is that simple when you're 20-30-maybe-40. I like emotional stuff in my relationships and I reinforce that desire for connection with physical affection. "I like you. I'm giving you a hug." Just sometimes hug is changed out with "oral sex."

...

I wouldn't say "abstaining from sex." I'd say "abstaining from desire." That's the goal, anyway. To settle for one person.

...

See, men have been "emasculated" because having balls is politically incorrect.

...

The problem with that "responsibility to fulfill your partner's needs" thing is that a lot of us are self-centered quitters out here. "I'm not getting what I want and I don't care what my partner has done for me because it doesn't really matter."

...

Stereotypes be damned. Men want sex and women don't know what the hell they want.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

nooly

i would come to the conclusion that there's some unbridgeable chasm between male and female thinking on this issue, but ratbastid seems to get it.

"Despite the fact that every sex therapist, shrink, TeeVee doctor, and magazine from Cosmo to Men's Health says that partners on the rocks shouldn't cut off sex activities, women sometimes do it anyway because they figure it's a real attention-getter for the man in their life. I could be wrong, I read somewhere that women enjoy sex as much as men despite the fact that their urges are more emotional instead of more "animal.""

again pointing out that women need the emotional turn-on yet failing to connect the lack of emotional turn-on in a relationship with lack of sexual desire. some women use sex as a weapon for sure (so do some men), but projecting that onto every instance of a woman not flipping onto her back on command is just the tiniest bit lazy and self-centred.

Plan9

How do law-abiding, civilized men use sex as a weapon?

As far as I can tell... they use it as a lame excuse, but not a weapon.

Enlighten me.

...

I agree. Assuming that men want a woman who "flips on her back - on command" is a little silly. We're people, too.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ShaniFaye

Its no sillier than this comment

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Starkizzer

*Hugs Shani*

Thank you for pointing this out!

__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

Plan9

Has anybody seen my irony? It seems to have not found its way into this thread.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Starkizzer

Point blank no one is perfect and even if you happen to find the "perfect" person for you there may still be things that happen in your relationship that you wish could be better or different. This in no way implies your a bad person or expect too much from your partner. Men can be just as fickle as women and women can want sex just as much as men.

__________________
Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

minim

The pill can decimate a woman's sex drive. I know from firsthand experience. After several years on the pill, my libido was to the point I would have happily taken the "get out of sex free card"... and it's fortunate (for BOTH of us) that my partner didn't buy into the whole "kick her to the curb" mentality. Am now off the pill and things are improving.

If she's on the pill, Google it and start thinking about other kinds of birth control. We hate condoms, so I chart my cycle now (symptothermal) to know when I'm fertile or not.

I'm new here, but saw this thread and had to throw this concept out there.

high_jinx

i never said anything about a one-way street. my whole point is that it's just as wrong if a guy watches tv while his gf tells him about her day or a an argument she had with a co-worker as it is for a woman to hold out sex on a guy.

maybe i could use more flowery language than "on-demand" or "weapon", but regardless of the degree of power or how good it might feel, holding back the implicit things that we sign on to provide our gf or bf is never anything but destructive to the bond you're trying to build on to begin with. and unfortunately this happens all too often because these things are left undefined going into a relationship. therefore i personally try to hash that out in communication up front and i recommend that to anyone else.

the biggest reason people end up feeling stifled or crushed by commitments and relationshops they're in is that they haven't defined what that means to them

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

lostgirl

Yes, I had the same problem on the pill and depo-provera. I completely lost my sex drive. Now that I have an IUD, I am an animal. My sex drive is higher than my SO's.

I've herd this enough around here.

"You know what they call people who use the rhythm method.....

Parents"

You can be fertile at anytime during your cycle. What you have charted are just your most fertile days.

__________________
We're about to go through the crucible, but we'll come out the other side.
We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its changed form. - Children of Dune

Plan9

Yeah, keep in mind that Depo Provera is what they use on sex offenders to keep them from being hungry for little kids.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

lostgirl

That is what made me stop taking it, when I found out it's what they use to chemically castrate men.

__________________
We're about to go through the crucible, but we'll come out the other side.
We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its changed form. - Children of Dune

minim

Actually, what I was talking about is different from the rhythm method. Basically the rhythm method is calendar-based. There is a more modern version called the Standard Days Method -- Wikipedia has a good article on it -- but that's not what I'm talking about either.

This is actually not true. You are fertile from about three days before ovulation until about 24 hours after ovulation. The trick is in figuring out when ovulation occurs, because you can't rely on the assumption that it's day 14. It may vary from woman to woman and cycle to cycle...

What I do is monitor (a) my basal body temperature and (b) what my cervix is doing. I'll spare you guys the gory bodily-fluid details; the temperature is the main thing. When a woman ovulates, her basal body temperature goes up and stays up for the rest of the cycle. After three days of sustained higher temperatures, she's considered to be in the post-ovulatory infertile phase; the egg is only viable for about 24 hours after ovulation, and you only ovulate once per cycle. This is all thoroughly researched and documented out there. (There is a pre-ovulatory infertile phase as well, but that is a little more complicated to determine and a little riskier.)

Reputable sources put the method failure rate at about 2%. The "typical use" failure rate is higher, but that includes when people misunderstand the rules, make mistakes in charting, or throw caution to the winds and have sex on fertile days. I am fanatical about not getting pregnant, seriously detail-oriented, and of questionable fertility anyway -- due to age and other factors -- so believe me, I will not be becoming a parent. If in doubt, I don't risk it.

It was fairly well mind-blowing to realize at the age of 39 that I'm only fertile for a few days each cycle. Add a few days' buffer zone on either side of that, and I still have a decent-sized window where I can have sex without fear of pregnancy. It's too bad I didn't know this when I was younger.

Various well-intentioned people want us to believe we're fertile ALL THE TIME so we won't take chances and wind up with an unintended pregnancy. But it's just not true. Your body tells you when it's fertile, if you know what signs to look for.

surferlove007

Wow I don't think I could have expressed a similar feeling any better. I have decreased my posting significantly...mostly due to some of the nasty responses people send. There comes a point where one doesn't want to deal with it. Hopefully the OP won't be too traumatized by this...

However despite the ugliness of certain advice being put out there it does have relevance.

J and I have been going through a similar situation...but when he listened to what I was feeling it improved significantly. There were times where my drive was through the roof and his not so much. Now it's opposite. We're dealing with it. The main problem was him constantly trying to get to the romping part. It made me not even want to kiss him for the fear of him trying to lead it to sex when I wasn't up for it. There are times when we ladies just want to kiss and cuddle without the sex. I know I do. But when the man is trying to get into your pants EVERY time it's a turn off. Let her come to you. That's my advice.

It's like the stock market...let it self regulate!

Baraka_Guru

Oh my, sorry, this is funny. But it works.

Sometimes you have to look ahead and know when to "park things in cash." You don't always have to be in the market; you're going to get burned if you're always putting yourself out there, thinking everything will work out on its own.

It's not about getting the payoff time and time again. Sometimes you have to know when to keep your dignity and your desires, rather than lose them to unseen forces.

See? It works. I like it.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Daniel_

You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...?

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Baraka_Guru

Pretty much. A successful sex life within a long-term monogamous relationship is like wise money management when you have a considerable portfolio...and you've read (and re-read, and abide by) Benjamin Graham's Intelligent Investor.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

telekinetic

threadjack:

Are you factoring the time sperm can survive into your calculations, in addition to the more general buffer zone?

From Mayo Clinic:

"The life span of sperm after they're ejaculated depends on the environmental conditions. Sperm ejaculated into a woman's vagina remain alive in the mucus of the cervix and are able to fertilize an egg for three to five days"

Sperm: How long do they live after ejaculation? - MayoClinic.com

/threadjack

__________________
twisted no more

nooly

as something women want..but can't necessarily get......are you that naive?

Plan9

Apparently so. Maybe you can help me out here.

Please detail situations where women want sex and can't find a partner. Also include realistic statistics. If the woman weighs 400 pounds or the man is sub 3.5" in the cock-a-lock-a range... it may throw off your argument a little.

The "I'm in a relationship and can't get sex!" excuse is total bullshit... whining that is best reserved for the "Post Your Emo" thread. Either resort to TFP Universal Response #1 (Communication!) or resort to Crompsin Universal Excuse #2 (Pack everything you own into cheap drawstring trashbags).

In the name of the father, and the son, and the Giant Hamburger... I have seen the reproductive organs of both sexes and have determined that sex is like baseball: somebody throws and somebody catches. Guys can throw all they want, but if a girl doesn't wanna play catch... you don't have much of a game.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

snowy

This is a most quotable quote.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

FlatLand Flyer

Tried that. We then hardly ever had sex.

We are now separated and just waiting for the state mandated 1 year to pass before divorce can be finalized.

Iliftrocks

OK, "let her come to you", just doesn't work. Why is is 100% the woman's prerogative? Why does a man just have to be on standby?

There are times, believe it or not, when a man might not be up for it, but when the woman wants it, we give it our best. Why can't a woman, every once in a while, do the same? I know you are going to say that they do, but, in my experience, and apparently the experience of a large number of other men, women do not. They only want things when they want them, which is human, and the personal selfishness of all Americans......

If you are in a relationship, there must be give and take from both sides. You must both be willing to do things you might not want to do, but will do to please the other partner. If you are not willing to do these things: sex, yardwork, housework, watching stupid TV shows, etc. , then you shouldn't be in a relationship at all.

I know it is not true of all women, but I'm tempted to say most, in this country, but women think it is the man's responsibility to serve them. Trust me, sex is good, but it is not worth the crap most women put us through to get it. There are very good reasons that some men look for more "traditional" women in other countries to marry. It's not to get a sex-slave, but to get a woman that understands that a partnership requires work on her part too.

Disclaimer: I said that as a man. I'm certain that a lot of women feel the same way about thier men. Our selfish culture goes both ways.

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Plan9

+1

Compromise: Americanz are doin' it wrong.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

high_jinx

Thank you. this guy said what i was talking about in a less boorish way. As an American guy, I'm fed up with American women in general. not that i won't date them as a rule, but they're lowest on my totem pole of preferences.

There's a sense of entitlement in American women that completely scrambles a healthy dynamic of macho and feminine in relationships that make it more enjoyable for both partners.

and i'm not saying that as a cave man. i blame American guys just as much for putting up with it. but at the end of the day, most South American and Asian and even Euro women can somehow cope in the pc equal rights world and still come home and be a wife or girlfriend and not always a princess. and that's a good thing.

i guess this post is a slight threadjack, but it does come back to the point i'm rallying, and that is for both partners to specifically define what they need from the other, both in quality and especially quantity, otherwise the relationship becomes based on the epic saga of defining that nebulous thing, and not centered on growing together as couple.

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

minim

A good question. I was factoring that in as "three days" before ovulation, but the source you cite says 3-5; I'll have to take a look at that.

I thought the cervical mucus thing might be TMI , but since you bring it up -- basically the rule is, as soon as "fertile" cervical mucus shows up, you have to consider yourself fertile because the sperm can survive in it (as you say) for a number of days, meaning you can get pregnant if you have sex a couple days before ovulating and fertile CM is present.

Different women have different standards on what constitutes fertile cervical mucus, based on what they observe over time in their cycles -- CM can have various consistencies. Typically, at the beginning of the cycle no CM is present, and then you get a type of CM that is not hospitable to sperm. Next you typically get what they call "eggwhite" -- which is VERY hospitable to sperm in its pH and consistency, and easy to distinguish from the other kind. I usually get eggwhite about 4 days before my temperatures confirm that I've ovulated. So I don't have unprotected sex when that stuff is present, and in fact, to be on the safe side I abstain when I detect any CM at all (before ovulation). With my short cycle, this pretty much means the pre-ovulatory infertile period is brief or non-existent... but better safe than sorry.

Apologies if this is TMI for anyone. If anyone's contemplating trying this method, read "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" -- there is more to learn than the broad outline I've sketched out. Bottom line is, this method takes careful attention, but if you want to avoid hormonal BC and hate condoms, it may be worth looking into.

nooly

as something to withhold if they don't get what they want. gee, you're sure ignorant for someone who's attempting to come off as intelligent.
-----Added 23/1/2009 at 04 : 35 : 47-----
mmmm..it's real sad that you can't find anyone to play on your level just yet. but i think perhaps in time you're gonna have to find a playmate on the same tier or else you're gonna get real lonely. good luck.