elsesomebody

I'm looking for advice as this is starting to bother me. (I'm sorry this is so long, I really appreciate anybody who takes time to read it)
I have strong feelings for my sister-in-law (my wife's sister). I can't say for sure its really love, as opposed to a crush or an infatuation. Sometimes I wonder if I should have married her instead of my wife. I considered a relationship with the sister before we were even married, but a) didn't think we were really right for each other, and b) didn't think the logistics of breaking up with one girl to go out with her sister would really work. We've been married almost 4 years. I do love my wife, but the feelings lately for her sister are more "in love" than what I feel for my wife. I realize that the "in love" emotion is something that has highs and lows, and believe that "love" and marriage is a decision and a commitment that should not depend on always having the feeling of being "in love". I don't really believe in divorce, and obviously not in adultery. I think I'm caught in a cycle of not feeling in love with my wife, which is because I need to work on my marriage, but because I'm not feeling in love, I'm more susceptible to the feelings for my sister-in-law, which both distracts me from improving my marriage, and also decreases my feelings for my wife. Although I like the idea of having a relationship with her sister, I believe that I shouldn't and (would like to say) wouldn't. I don't think she is interested in me, although we do flirt and I do at times get the feeling that she might be, but I'm sure I'm just reading more into it because that's what I want to see. Part of me wants to get over the sister, and improve my marriage, and part of me wants to ignore my marriage and have a relationship with her sister. At any given time, which part of me is dominant varies.

I'm considering bringing this up with the sister. I think I have two motives for this: 1) I'm trying to tell myself that being rejected by her will help me to get over her, and stop having feelings, 2) I'm hoping that she does have feelings for me, and that we can have a secret mostly non-physical semi-platonic friendship. Part of me says that I need to confront this so that I can work on having a better relationship with my wife, but the other part says that it would be a mistake, that I shouldn't bring it up and should try to conquer the feelings on my own. I think my marriage is one of the most important things at stake. I definitely see a lot of bad things that could result in bringing this up with my sister-in-law, embarrassment if other family members found out like her parents, my wife finding out and having to deal with that, ruining the friendship with the sister, that I'd like to avoid. At the same time, though, if the greater goal is improving my marriage, I'm willing to risk it if good will come of it.

abaya

If you really want to work on your marriage, I think you ought to be talking about this with your wife rather than with the object of your infatuation. You also should probably both get into couples' counseling to sort out what's missing from your marriage. How much time do you spend around the sister-in-law on a regular basis? Are there ways that you can decrease your exposure, and thus the intensity of your reaction to her? "In love" feelings are truly more chemical than anything else, especially at the beginning of infatuation... and yes, they can be conquered, if you diminish the exposure to the trigger of that chemical reaction. But you have to be committed to that self-discipline, and committed to your wife and the marriage, and going to counseling, in order to accomplish all that. You can do it. But you have to decide what is ultimately more important to you. If you end up with the sister, your (ex-)wife is not simply going to vanish off the face of the earth. You'll have to deal with that fallout for the rest of your (and the sister's) life.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ktspktsp

Which is why it's extremely unlikely that something would work out with the sister, I would think, since she would be wrecking her relationship with her sister and possibly her family (that's assuming she would even be interested in being in a relationship with you).

Are the sisters close to each other?

snowy

abaya's got some great advice here. You really should be getting into couples' counseling and talking to your wife.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

elsesomebody

Thanks abaya. I think its great advice. I see my sister-in-law a few times a year. Obviously the feelings are strongest before during and after being around her or even talking to her online. I can basically rule out the chemical thing, unless the anticipation of the chemical reaction brings as strong of a response (which isn't unrealistic when you consider chemical dependency).

I also have an addiction to pornography/masturbation (which I'm also trying to overcome). I would not be surprised if the addiction is at least partially a chemical dependency. The point being that whether its chemical or just personality, I think there is a common flaw causing both of these problems.

abaya

Glad to be of help. But why are you talking with her online in the first place? Cut that out ASAP... it's gonna be like quitting cigarettes, but you've got to reduce, reduce, reduce the exposure to that trigger. And increase time and quality with your wife--and GET TO COUNSELING. I'm a veteran of individual, group, and couples' counseling. Let me tell you--you are not going to be able to deal with this shit on your own. You need support from your wife and an external, objective party that will hold you accountable to behavior change.

Does your wife know about the addiction to porn? Do you want her help? You've got to approach these issues as a team... that's what marriage is for. It's not for hiding things from each other, even things that might hurt the other person. Ideally, your marriage will be a sanctuary from crap like this, not a place where you have to hide and be deceitful about your behavior and feelings. If you have that as a goal, then you can definitely get to that place. But you have to want it, and you have to have some kind of accountability set up with others.

My two cents. This kind of stuff is no joke, man... your long-term happiness (and that of your wife's) is on the line.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

elsesomebody

They are quite close. (i'm in progress of editing this post to add more details; after further thought I won't) I don't really think that I'm going to end one relationship and start another. I think that my hope/fantasy is that the sister shares the same feelings I do: having strong feelings for each other but not willing to hurt my wife. The desirable outcome of this would be ... well I'm not actually sure, but I guess that when we talk, make eye contact, hug, etc, we both know what we feel for each other instead of just hoping/wondering. I'll be the first to admit that what I'm saying/thinking/hoping/feeling is fucked up; but that's why I'm here. This is definitely not a "how do I bed my sister-in-law". I'm hoping that talking through it with you guys might help me work through whatever is wrong with me.


-----Added 25/8/2008 at 06 : 29 : 12-----
Abaya you are wonderful. Thanks for taking the time to respond (again). I really do appreciate it. I think I'm going to take this discussion into private messages now, as it involves my wife and I would hate for this to become public and embarrass her.

abaya

Problem is, we're not professionals, mate. You haven't responded to any of the suggestions about counseling yet. I would say that the answer is not in private-messaging (especially not me, sorry--not when you're in this situation), but in getting yourself to someone who can actually help you get to the bottom of what's going on in your head. And talking with your wife. Start with the porn conversation if you need to, instead of the sister situation--but get the communication open with your wife.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Borla

Ok, follow this scenario and play out the end result. Right now you have feelings for her, or think you do, and all you want is recognition and validation of those feelings by her.

Once you get that, do you REALLY think you are going to be ok stopping there?

Next you will "only" want inappropriate online conversations with her, or a quick sneaked kiss or touch.

Then what?




You have to realize that, in a case like this, you might be focused on ONLY the next step, but it is the beginning of an entire path. The further you allow yourself down the path, the harder it is to go back, switch routes, or change course.

__________________
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!!

elsesomebody

There is a difference between helping and solving, and you guys have helped already. Putting things on paper, or talking them through with somebody else generally helps in all sorts of situations. It helps you sort out reality from hope, desire from need (what I would like and what is most important to me). This is purely an expression, and not indicative of my state, but I can't think of a better expression: you've talked me down from the ledge, and I'm thankful. The problem isn't solved, but I don't feel as hopeless about it, and I don't feel the need to something rash. Thank you.

pig

First, I agree with abaya: some sort of counseling sounds like a good idea. I've never been to a professional counselor, but I'm lucky to have some friends that I can talk about things like this who will usually set me straight. I don't think I need to tell you that starting some sort of Wuthering Heights affair with your sister-in-law, full of meaningful gazes and poignant sighs, is not likely to end happily. Do you have any built-up residual issues with your wife, or any previous life experiences that would lead you to try to 86 your marriage? Those are the two things I see from wanting to start sort illicit relationship with your sister-in-law, whom your wife is close to. Imagine how your wife would feel if she knew about these issues. I think she'd most likely be hurt, and understandably so. Thus, I'd think that you subconsiously wanted to hurt her, or that you're afraid of something in your relationship and want to end it...at least on some level. I'm sure your sister-in-law is a great gal, but honestly no one person is worth trashing a marriage over based on their individual merits. I think they're only a catalyst - what makes a person and a relationship so great is what goes into building the relationship, and in that sense one person is almost as good as the next. Yes, there may be something that endeared your wife to you originally, or that makes your sister-in-law attractive, but those things quickly fade with time in a real relationship. I think what starts to matter is the shared commonality of experience, the rebuilding of family structure. Are these things you really want to do at this time in your life?

From my perspective, what I see is a recipe to destroy your marriage. You might have great kinky sex with the sister-in-law, or you might have meaningful hugs or whatever...but in the end I see destruction of your marriage. Unless you and your wife are kinky like that. Which I'm kind of getting the feeling y'all aren't. In which case, if I were you, I'd want to trace this feeling back to the root, which I think is most likely a personal issue with you, and your satisfaction with your marriage.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

abaya

As a woman, if you ask me, she already knows... and is already hurt by it. That's why it's gotta come up to the open air before it implodes the marriage (this is otherwise known as self-destructive behavior).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

pig

abaya: I had the same thought. You can't really hide those kind of issues from someone you're around all the time. The way someone in a group knows when you have the hots for someone else in the group....yeah, it's kind of like that. Only it's your husband, and your sister. I doubt it's directly about the sister-in-law, per say, and more likely about something in the marriage...but that's where introspective thought and counseling come in I suppose.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

digme

Whether or not it works out with your wife, you have to realize that it will never work out with her sister. I'm having a hard time envisioning this ending well. Sorry to put it that way.

dlish

i think you answered it yourself.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

elsesomebody

I still realize that, my question is more along the lines of "how do i stop feeling what i'm feeling" which i've already received some great responses to.

Janie

Why do you think she is not interested in you, and why do you flirt with her, or she with you?

If she is in earnest flirting with you, that has to stop. You should tell her that you are married to her sister and that flirting is not appropriate.

Now, on the other hand (more likely in my opinion and with no knowledge of what exactly the flirting entails) she could just be friendly to you and you are interpreting that as flirting. Many guys do this at times, and as you say yourself you could be seeing what you want to see instead of what's actually going on.

And finally with regards to your wife and not feeling "in love" with her at the moment, maybe you should ask yourself why you married her. What made you fall in love with her to begin with. Concentrate on that. Perhaps you need to go on dates more often. Real dates, not "hey there's nothing to do, want to rent "The Mummy" tonight?" And stop talking to her sister online. That only makes you fixate on how you aren't in love with your wife.

__________________
cheers to the motherland

kutulu

The absolute worst thing you could do is bring this up to your sister in law. Seriously, that makes no sense.

The idea of a 'secret mostly non-physical semi-platonic friendship' is garbage. Even if you could pull that off it eventually would lead to "oops, my dick was accidentally inserted into you"

I say you need to reevaluate your marriage. Is this what you want? Is it worth fighting for? If so then get in counselling.

curiousbear

Being attracted to a SIL is common and should end at teasing each other. Talking about relationship is DANGEROUS. You lack something in your marriage. That shows your wife is lacking it too. Listen to Abaya, express to your wife and go for a counselling. Good luck. You sound like a concerned hubby caring the Wife. Keep it up and build your marraige. Trust me your SIL will always like you and be an object of attraction. If you indulge any further it is going to ruin a lot of relationships, not just one!

girldetective

I have not read all the posts, just the OP, and I find it incredibly appalling and upsetting. Not your feelings, but that you would selfishly consider bringing them up with either woman or anyone else in the family. I suggest that you see a therapist about your feelings and speak to no one else about it. Keep it to yourself and your counselor. This is dangerous to be fooling with sisters and family like this. You may find yourself outside in the cold, and the sisters may never recover.

__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Lasereth

DO NOT tell your SIL about this. DO NOT tell your wife about this. Go to counseling for your marriage issues that do not pertain to this. A few members have said that bringing it out in the open and talking to your wife about how you want to fuck her sister is a good idea. What?? Forget that. It's just not gonna end well. If you tell your wife that you want to have a relationship with her sister it will not end well. As a matter of fact it will probably end your relationship forever, even if your wife stays with you.

What you need to do is find out why you like the sister more than your wife and what your wife could do to make your relationship stronger. If there's a physical aspect of your SIL that you want your wife to have, talk to her about it, but don't say "because your sister is hot like that." This is relationship destroying material here and I honestly can't believe that anyone could suggest talking to your wife about it. It would destroy your marriage.

Fix it yourself through different avenues. There IS a way to be happy with your wife, you just need to figure out what she's lacking that the SIL has and act on it.

abaya

Lasereth: what if the wife has already asked, "Are you in love with my sister?" Wouldn't you say that she already knows exactly what is going on, and should not be treated as if she is clueless from this point on?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

Do you believe a relationship is plausible?

Yes? You'll need to explain this to your wife, very carefully.

No? You'll need to get over your wife's sister.

LoganSnake

Exactly how do you carefully explain "I'm sorry, but I love your sister"?

Speaking as a sibling, if my brother's wife came up to me with this, I'd send her ass packing to get either some help or talk to my brother. If she didn't stop with the fantasy, I'd tell him myself.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Willravel

That's why I qualified it with the question of plausibility. I don't know his wife and her sister, do you? It's possible that this situation could end with a different relationship blooming and I would be remiss to ignore that possibility, whether or not I believe it to be unlikely.

abaya

...blooming like a venus fly trap, maybe.

There is no way that pursuing that line of thinking will end well. The issue is not about the sister. It's about the marriage, and his relationship with his wife. Period.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

It's probably just an issue of marriage, but dismissing the possibility of a trio outright demonstrates not having an open mind. I know several people in trios and they are absolutely happy and healthy.

What's the harm in simply asking, "Knowing your wife and her sister, is there a possibility of a different relationship budding from this?" Sure the answer is probably no, but some people don't even consider that option. It's good for people to know their options.

abaya

Will, don't be daft. Read the OP again. This has NOTHING to do with having an "open mind;" that you think a menage a trois with two sisters might be a plausible outcome of this particular situation, is quite frankly one of the most awful arguments I've ever seen on this forum. Give me a break, seriously.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

I waited until there was a consensus before posting intentionally. He knows what to do.

ratbastid

Will, I love that you've got the back of the theoretical polyamory here, but I'm afraid even I am with abaya on this one. From where the OP is starting from, it's vanishingly unlikely.

Starting from healthy marriage, and an exceptionally mature relationship between the sisters? Maybe. UNLIKELY, but maybe. But this mess? I DON'T recommend going there. And frankly, I'm not much in favor of us giving the guy false hope about it. You know what it's like when you've got the hopeful wishful hots for someone. Even the slightest thread of hope that maybe it'll all turn out the way you want spins off dozens of fantasies and secret plans. Let's not give him any more of that, okay? He needs to be doing away with all that crap.

elsesomebody: abaya's got the ball on this one. Listen to her.

abaya

You know, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt. He may very well *not* know what to do, seeing as he's coming here asking for advice. And frankly, your suggestion was by no means "good advice," given the situation.

You're not World's King. You can't post stuff like that unless it's clear to the audience that it should not be taken seriously.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

I know it's highly unlikely in this case. It's almost certainly not plausible, so it seems that the consensus of the thread is the direction to head.

Let it be known: I'm not saying "Dude, go ask your wife what she thinks about a threesome..." I'm asking him, knowing both women, and on the terribly off chance, if he thinks it's within the realm of reason. It's almost certainly not, of course, but I like to cover all bases.

For the time being I'll just be waiting for the time when someone asks, "I love my gf/wife/etc. but we both also love so-and-so. What do we do?" Then we can all march forward under the banner of accepting polyamory as natural and wonderful....
-----Added 26/8/2008 at 05 : 14 : 59-----
Read the first post I brought it up in:
This is pretty clear.

abaya

Can I quote you in my signature, with an extra "s" after the word "ball?"
-----Added 26/8/2008 at 05 : 20 : 03-----
Will, you know well and good that I have absolutely no problems with polyamory. This thread is NOT about polyamory, nor should it even be part of the consideration for how to resolve the situation.

Quit being faux-naive, and let's get back to realistic solutions for the OP.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

elsesomebody

I want to thank everybody again.
Don't worry no harm came from willravel's post. I do appreciate the fast that you guys care enough to give him a hard time about it.

I think the original intent of this thread this was, "I'm feeling something I shouldn't, how do I stop feeling it." I didn't expect anybody to tell me to go after my sister-in-law.
I feel like I'm in a much better state of mind now than I was when I originally posted it. There are two problems that are symbiotic (they magnify each other): a) feeling the way I do about my wife's sister, and b) not feeling the way I think I should about my wife.
I can come up for some reasons for both, and everything seems interrelated. I suck at being romantic, which could have let our marriage to fall into more of a friendship; at the same time, I might not have much desire to be romantic, if I don't have strong feelings for my wife. Not feeling "in love" with my wife, and wanting to feel that way, opens me up to fall in love with somebody else. My sister-in-law really is a special person, and we have had a fun friendship that would make it easy for me to fall for her. Additionally my wife has steadily gained weight since she was in high school when we first met and she was quite attractive; while my sister-in-law is still quite attractive. I also feel unsatisfied by our sex, which I partially to mostly blame on my exposure to pornography. (I enjoy the "end" greatly, but "act" itself I get bored with.)

There is a difference between what I want and what I want. I would never want to cheat on my wife, but I would love to have a relationship with my sister-in-law. Obviously I can't have it both ways. One way it makes sense to me is that I have different conflicting desires between id, ego, superego (haven't touched a psych book in a while, so I can't remember which is which).
The problems, a) and b) have existed for several years, moreso a) then b). I didn't know what to do about it, but hoped my feelings for my sister-in-law would go away. Not realizing any risk, I allowed myself to consider "alternate realities" or daydream of having an encounter with my sister-in-law. I think allowing myself to do this over the years, and not realizing that it wouldn't just go away on its own, has allowed the problem to get worse, or at least grow deeper roots.

I'm going to start by cutting back contact with my sister-in-law, attempting to distract myself as soon as I start thinking of her, and most importantly working on improving my relationship with my wife. In addition, I'm also working on defeating my addiction to pornography and working with my wife to improve our sex. I'm also going to look into getting couseling either with my wife or by myself.

The_Jazz

Will, I actually like your advice. It makes sense. Abaya and ratbastid are just being too literal with what you've submitted. I considered writing something similar when I first read the OP but never got around to it.

elsesomebody, you seem to be on the right track. I think that at some point you're going to have to come clean with your wife if for no other reason than easing your burden, but I think that you need to get past the other issues you've identified first.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

james t kirk

Thank you for the best advice so far.

Telling either your wife, or your SIL is a recipe for disaster. No good will come of it. All that will happen is that your wife will freak out and will be very hurt (if you tell her) or your SIL will freak out and quite possibly tell your wife (if you tell your SIL). Even if you and your wife stay together, she'll never trust you again - ever.

Keep your mouth shut on this one. If you have to tell anyone, make sure it's a shrink because anyone else will eventually blab and it will get back to your wife, and then you're in even more trouble.

You're just going to have to get over it.

Even if you ended your marriage, your odds of hooking up with SIL are slim to nil and even if you did, you'd only be making the situation worse.
-----Added 26/8/2008 at 09 : 30 : 06-----
Lasereth is BANG on with his advice (and I posted the same advice before reading his take on it.)

If his wife asks, "Are you in love with my sister?"

Answer, "No fucking way, are you nuts?"

Deny it to the bitter end. She may suspect, but she'll never be SURE until he either does the dumb thing and confesses, or she catches him with his pants down (literally). (Which odds are isn't going to happen anyway since odds are the SIL doesn't share the feelings.) No sense in getting killed over an affair that has not yet happened, and most likely never will (because SIL won't go for it.)

ratbastid

Okay, maybe. But that doesn't mean you get to ease your own burden by adding to hers.

Acetylene

The "in love" feelings have been excessively over-emphasized by our popular culture. The vast majority of music and romance movies have that initial infatuation as the central focus. I can count on my fingers the number of songs about a long-term relationship.

Let's face it, those feelings are fun but they're there to get us to spread seed.

You are going to have to rise above this aspect of your animal nature if you want to have a wife, even if you divorce the one yuo have now for the sister. Another girl will come along and catch your eye -- maybe not as strongly, but that's probably just because you see the sister all the time and have a history with her. Cut yourself off from her now! Cold turkey! If she talks to you, be polite and nothing more. This is normally how people relate to their in-laws anyway.

You may not ever get the "in love" feeling back again with your wife, at least not like it used to be. THIS IS OK and doesn't mean your relationship is dead! Love is about a LOT more than infatuation. To remind yourself about why you made the choice to commit to this long-term project (because marriage is an ongoing project requiring regular maintenance and effort, like a beautiful flowering plant), spend more fun time with your wife, as was recommended above.

No one's yet mentioned the sex thing, I think, so I will... There's no need to be bored after only 4 years! Find something you've never done. Visit the Adopt-a-Kink thread and pick something exciting! Talk to your wife when she's had a glass of wine and a nice evening with you about what she might be willing to try, and then go for it!

Enjoy! And don't give that other girl a second thought. She's just one of a parade of temptations that you meet as part of your everyday life. File her next to the Triple Whopper as "tempting but unhealthy".

__________________
There's no justice. There's just us.

cmc

I have a friend, who lives in Wyoming, and one night he had a dream about an old high school GF. He looked so stunned when he and his wife woke up - that she asked him what he was worried about. He sat up and told her that he had just had an erotic dream about his old GF. - boom just like that.

She asked him if he wanted to be with her. No wild emotions, just a deep and loving question.
He thought about it for a while and later that morning - he told her that he wasn't sure. What he did know was that he did not like the way his life and his career was going ( they had moved from La - to Wyoming 2 years earlier, as a job promotion.)

He told me this story some several years after this dream and conversation.

Then he said - he knew that he didn't like his job and she sat with him while he thought about all this. Then she looked at him, and told him she wanted him to be happy - and that if he knew he was now realizing that he was in the wrong job, in the wrong part of the country - that she wanted him to go in and quit today ! And they would move back to Louisiana - no matter how much they might lose on their house and move back. And that is EXACTLY what he did.

That very day, re resigned. That night he told her how relieved he felt, and how free he now felt. He told me that they stayed up most of that night - just holding each other and - get this - celebrating his decision and their resolve to do what made them feel happy and content. The next morning - he told ( now 2 days after the original old GF dream ) that he thought about his old GF - (which was like 10 years ago - fyi) and realized that when he was dating her - he felt free in his life - and what he really wanted was that feeling of freedom and total love. AND HE had with Her - his wife. That was it. His dream was message from an angel to be happy. The whole thing, had almost nothing to do with his old GF.

When he told me this story - about 4 years after they moved back to LA - we were driving at night on a business trip - and it was about 11 pm at night. I was actually the one driving and when he finished he was crying, and he told me how much he loved his wife. I told him I had to stop the car and get out and breath -- as I felt overwhelmed with how much Love his wife has for him. I also asked him is she had any eligible sisters - as I wanted to be in relationship like that !

Her Love for him was a hundred times bigger, stronger and better than his dream of an old GF.

Isn't that something ! I get chills even now telling this story - and this is something that happened over 10 years ago. Love solves all. Be the love you want, desire and deserve in your whole life.

P.S. - they are still happily married and are one of my favorite couples on the planet.

ratbastid

That's beautiful, cmc.