Sultana

Basically, I need input on how to best conduct a marital separation. I know that some things are fairly relative and I need to go based on how I feel about that particular issue, but I have had no experience with this, and would *greatly* appreciate some input.

We are planning on continuing counseling for the duration, but we're going to a new one, because hubby feels that because I see our current couples counselor for my own personal counseling, she is no longer as objective as she should be (he pretty much feels she's "on my side, I think). I disagree, and don't look forward to recounting everything that got us to that point, but I figure if the new person says the same thing as the previous person, maybe he'll see that it's not a matter of "taking sides".

He has not yet moved out, we're trying to find an option that won't run our finances dry. However, I have been encouraging him to put more effort into it. I will help, but I'm not doing it for him.

Questions:

*How long should I plan for? Initially I was thinking three or four weeks, but nearly everyone has told me that's not enough time, including the hubby.

*Should we "date" during this time, or really not see each other at all except for necessities (financial meetings, etc. Business oriented)?
ADDED CLARIFICATION: I mean date each other.

I don't think we should cut off all contact, as this is ostensibly a last effort for growth together.

I plan to file separation paperwork. Don't really know how he'll feel about that.

I can't think of anything else just now, but if there's anything I haven't addressed (and I'm sure there is), please feel free to include that.

Thanks in advance.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

ratbastid

I don't have much of an opinion about anything else, but:

I'm with you about this. For it to do what it's meant to do, it has to be real. It's got to be like really this thing is going one of two ways. You'll both either stare that down and be stronger together for it, or you'll complete this part of your lives together and move on. But for that to happen, it can't be a game. It's got to be legal and real.

StanT

My wife and I seperated for 6 months or so around a decade ago, it is possible to work things out.

I'd plan on 6 months. It will take at least a month to actually get things separated.

Get your finances seperate and in order as soon as possible. This will be a major source of contention.

Keep a running list of what actually leaves the house. It's not really a matter of money, as much as being able to maintain a normal lifestyle. My wife taking a $1.50 measuring cup was no big deal, not being able to finish cooking dinner without one sucked.

A new, unbiased marriage counselor is a reasonable request. I insisted on the same. Your counselor has way too much time invested on just you to be fair.

We needed about a month apart before we had any desire to "date". We did need to talk once a week or so about finances and business.

You can hurry a divorce, but if you are looking to try to salvage a marriage it will take some time to figure out that you'd really prefer to stay together.

World's King

Take the money and run.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

Sultana

Six months!?! Fuck!

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

oFia

Based on how long I was separated before my exhusband finally decided to get the divorce final I'd agree with 6 months being a good minimum.

Your other option is to not try to find a time period and give it as long as it needs.

It's true though, marriages can be repaired and sometimes separation does it.

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Disclaimer: No one was harmed in the making of this post. If you feel that I am not simply stating my opinion and am attempting to bait you or someone else then please reconsider. I do not intentionally attempt to bait anyone.

ratbastid

In our state, you can't even file for divorce until you've been separated "living as if single" for one calendar year.

I know because I'm living with a girl who's in her fifth month of separation.

Jinn

This is going to be true no matter how objective the person claims to be; and no matter how trained they are as a psychologist. The better they know you and your situation, the more inherently sympathetic they will be to your cause. Without (admittedly) knowing a damn thing about the situation, I must agree with him that the current one would be biased.

That said, I second the 6months estimate. Three/four weeks is definitely not enough time.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Daniel_

In the UK you have to live seperated for 2 years before you can file.

Personally I'd say split totally for a month or two.

Agree to a new therapist.

Assume that you will be appart for between 6-12 months even if things work well.

Don't date until you feel that you can't manage without dating.

EDIT:

Forgot to say.

Do things for you. If that makes things work for HIM or you as a couple then great. But do things for YOU first.

Compromise is essential in relationships, but too much compromise is a disaster.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Sultana

OK, already agreed with getting the new counselor, but thank you for adding your support about that. Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees.

I guess I was pretty damn naive about this process.

God damn. No sex for a very long time.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Daniel_

I never said no sex.

Just no sex WITH HIM.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Sultana

Veddy funny! Might as well go straight for a divorce that way, eh?

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Daniel_

Not to joke about it, but if you think you might need to, you probably need to (in my experience).

The fact is tat if you want to spend every day with someone, and they want to spend it with you, you probably both know it already.

I am a strong advocate of going with your gut feelings.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

StanT

Depends on how you define a very long time.

In my case, things got worse before they got better. My wife moved out, the kids stayed with me, and she was greatly mistaken in the amount of financial assistance I should be providing her. It took about a month to get our finances seperated. Once that happened we were civil enough to date.

Bottom line, we liked each other, loved each other, and enjoy each other's company. We just had a hard time living together. Still do to some extent.

After a few weeks of dating, she started spending the night. Maybe 6-7 weeks of no sex. It took a good 4 months longer to reach the "move back in" stage.

lurkette

Yay! Almost halfway there!!!

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

ItWasMe

And the 2 weeks I was separated from my ex, is really not enough time. We divorced 4 months after we got back together.

About the no sleeping together...check your state laws...you need to find out if 'giving in' one night will negate the legal part of separation. I knew someone years ago whose "soon-to-se-ex-husband" tried to use it against her. His lawer called her babysitter (me) to find out if he'd stayed the night, if he was there when I arrived in the morning, had clothes there, etc etc. He was trying to show reconcilliation so the judge would deny divorce. He wasn't getting what he wanted in the divorce, and thought starting back at square one would give him a better chance.

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. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe

cyklone

Your husband has got it right. As a counsellor it is very difficult to be objective to the second person when you have already built a rapport with the first. Secondly, as a counsellor, it is extremely difficult to maintain confidentiality in these circumstances as there are often things said by the one which shouldn't come out in the couples session. It is very difficult to do this and so the counsellors puts his/her self at risk of a legal suite.
If it is over, it is over. Say so, put yourselves out of your misery and make it a hard clean break. If it is a serious attempt at getting some distance between yourselves for perspective, you will need a couple of months. Dating each other in the meantime will only confuse everything and dating others will make things worse. Spend some time together occasionally for some deep and meaningful conversations, but if you date too much you will burn each other out with the stress of the contacts.
It can be worthwhile thinking that this relationship didn't work, so you need to establish a new relationship with new boundaries and rules. If there is not enough separation you will only re-establish the old non-workable relationship.

mandy

This is so terribly sad...but if it's what you gotta do, then it's what you gotta do.

personally, i feel that if healer and i, ever had to separate, i would not be able to see him during that time. granted, we aren't married, so i probably am not the best person to be giving advice.

but isn't the whole point of separation so that you can miss what you had and realise that you can't do without it?

but then again, you're married...but also, you got married for a reason and you just have to find that reason within yourselves and each other. and once you've done that, i suppose it's plain sailing from then on...

i just think it's really sad that two people who "found each other" are separating...but my thoughts and prayers are with both of you.

good luck with the counseling and i hope you guys are back together real soon.

*hopeless romantic*...

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The Imagination equips us to see a reality we have yet to create

StellaLuna

(And lurkette... yay!)

Oh, honey. I hate this for you. Unfortunately, I feel like if you're done, you're done. We had this discussion during Tea and Strumpets night here-- our friend is separated, our Mary Kay rep was divorced once, I'm in month five of a very very long twelve-- and the point was made that when women are done, we're really and truly done. We've agonized over the decision and finally accepted the idea that something we've put our hearts and lives into is just plain over.
Keep going to counseling. It's not a bad thing. Sit down with him and sort out your finances, and try to make sure neither of you will get screwed. I wouldn't recommend "dating" each other, but that's your call. Personally, I'm still trying to be friends with my soon-to-be ex, and sometimes it's just too hard. Not because I miss him, but because I'm so happy now that I can't remember what I saw there in the first place.

ETA:
Good girl. I had that same problem, still sometimes do. It's tough to let that one go.

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Screw tradition!

hagatha

"Unfortunately, I feel like if you're done, you're done."

Maybe separation should be just that, a separation, no dating, no nothing except the counseling....if you both find you miss one another, then something is still there, worth trying to save, maybe, or maybe it is just "done".

Don't concede to do things he wants out of feelings of guilt, which sort of sounds like what's happening with the counsellor issue, I mean she is supposed to be objective regardless of counseling you individually. Its her job.
As for the sex thing, that will just further cloud and extend a relationship that perhaps shouldn't be extended and maybe just make things worse.

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Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

Sultana

Well folks, thanks for your input.

To make a long story short, we did some talking this weekend about our rules for our separation. We're going to find a new couples counselor this week, hopefully. But I am very concerned because we started talking about s e x. And...seeing other people. Yes. eventually it came out that he's interested in dating other women, and possibly having sex with them, if it came to that.

While I can't say I've never thought about being with another man, I was totally not even thinking about dating other people. He said he wouldn't have sex and/or date (two-tier plan, eh?) if I said I didn't want to allow that. He already has women in mind! I have to say that if he wants it, and I say "No", then he'll feel like it wasn't a full or "real" separation in the future...We've decided to hold off on that decision until we get a new couple's counselor to bounce it off of, and I thanked him truthfully and sincerely for his honesty.

And now I'm pretty devistated. I'm trying really hard to remain positive and open-minded and not take it personally...but hell. He still insists that he wants our marriage to be healed, but that there are major things that would have to be changed.

At the very least, I think it's a big mistake to even casually start relationships with others while working on another.

I'm trying to not be pessimistic and self-pitying. But the fact that he wants to do that makes me feel like it's already pretty much over. Or is this just life and how people are, and I need to grow up?

Edited to add:
Please be aware that I love this man! I was prepared to continue on with him for the rest of my life warts and all! So sarcastic, easy comments are not the input that I'm looking for, OK? Finding out that the man that you love wants to date and fuck other women isn't easy or funny to deal with, just so you know.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

World's King

Yeah... I know I'm supposed to be the one that actually makes sarcastic comments in situations like this but...


There is no way you can tell your husband that he can't date other and expect him to obey. He already has it in his head that part of being in a separation is being able to do whatever he wants.

See, most men don't see a separation as a way to work things out. We see it as the first step to being divorced.


Sorry I don't have better news for you, sweetheart.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

cyklone

My sympathies Sultana, I think you are about to take a walk through that long dark night of the soul. I believe his talk of dating and sex with other women is a good sign that he is moving on from you and perhaps hasn't quite got the guts to see the pain in you as he tells you the truth so he is trying to "let you down slowly".
My advice, the hardest thing of all, plaster a smile on your face, pretend he doesn't matter and walk away.

ShaniFaye

Honey I am really confused by that statement and the wanting to date other women...to me that doesnt go hand in hand. How exactly does one work on healing a marriage while they are dating someone else? (Im really interested in hearing HIS comment on that)

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Borla

I couldn't agree more.


It seems to me that it is impossible to be considering (concentrating even?) on new relationships, while claiming to be sincerely trying to improve the current one. To me that smacks of selfishness, or delusion, or both.

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Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!!

eribrav

You don't know me, and I don't know you, but I have followed your thread and felt a great degree of sadness about it. I"m happily married and honestly can't even fathom how badly this must suck for you.

Having said that (and I'm male BTW) the last part about wanting to date other women seems like a game changer, and not in a good way. You're just barely getting seperated and that's what's on his mind right now? Not a positive sign. Sorry to say that Sultana.

SecretMethod70

Just to throw a different idea out there, he may be thinking that the only way to know whether or not he wants to keep working on your relationship is by trying out others. If that's what he's thinking, his interest in dating other women is not necessarily a sign that he's not interested in at least trying to fix your relationship. That said, I think the idea that in order to know he wants you he needs to try out others is misguided at best.

It's good that he agreed to talk to the new counselor about the idea. King's right: if you tell him not to date other women, either he's not going to 'obey' or he's going to resent you for it, which would be detrimental to the prospects of mending your relationship. I would hope the counselor will tell him that it's best not to date other women though, and it seems to me that he'll listen if he hears it from that source.

Don't let this revelation get you too far down. I'm not gonna say it's a good thing - obviously it's not - but a lot of people think the way he's probably thinking, that the only way he'll know he wants to stay with you is to know he doesn't want to leave you. It doesn't work like that though, and it's impossible to put forth the necessary energy to explore your issues if he's using that energy elsewhere. In short, try not to get too worked up before you've talked to the new counselor. I think you'll have a much better idea what to expect once that happens.

Hang in there

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

abaya

Emphasis on the "misguided." Man, if I was just starting a separation and my husband wanted to immediately start seeing other women... holy fuck, I think I would be out of there as soon as I could get a judge's gavel to come down on the decision. I would find it extremely difficult to reconcile after the other person made a request like that... and vice versa, if I was asking to go sleep around or date other men in the interim, I would expect my husband to give me the boot immediately as well. Even if the marriage is unhappy, that doesn't mean it deserves to be disrespected at the first sign of "freedom" or whatever.

Sultana, I am so very sorry to hear all this... I have been following your journals and this thread, and I just keep wishing for better news. I am going to keep wishing... but above all, take care of you, alright? We're definitely here for you.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Suzz04

since no one mentioned this... i thought i'd throw this in.

check with your state on the guidelines of "dating" during separation. some may have rules about that during separation. better safe than sorry later on.

when i went through my divorce, i listened to everything the ex said. which in the end, i found out everything he said was wrong. naive isn't the word for me. just be sure to check everything that you can through the state. the more you know about the separation/divorce laws through your state, the safer you will be.

chin up and keep hanging in there

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Upon hearing the sound of a can being opened,
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Sultana

Thank you so much abaya (and EVERYONE else). I...am still trying to process this, not over-react, etc.

I don't necessarily think it's automatically disrespectful, in that he's not running out and doing it, it doesn't seem something his heart is set on, he is still treating me ok (that's actually hard. On the surface, things look exactly the same. He still smiles at me, helps me out, says he loves me. He says the things he says so reasonably and calmly, I feel like I'm crazy. Outright anger and mistreatment would help things along), he's asking for ground rules to be set up. He's not immediately running and and doing whatever/whomever, regardless of how I feel. He doesn't even sound like he'd be upset if I "didn't allow" it...but like you guys have said...there's a desire there. At least he's not hiding it. Is just having the desire enough to ruin a marriage? I do absolutely trust him, alright? If he was gonna do something, I don't think he'd be this up-front and willing to alk about it.

That's something, anyways.

I will carefully consider all your input. Thank you for being so sweet and caring. But don't make me cry at work!

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

abaya

No, I agree, that IS something... and the respect thing all depends on the relationship and the context. I was just giving you my knee-jerk reaction in the moment, since I am not particularly famous for being patient in general.

It sounds like you are definitely IN the process, and more patient than I would be with that whole thing. Good on you for that. We don't want to make you cry at work, though!! (((((hugs)))))

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

I'm not sure I see the disrespect in a request like that.

Isn't the point of a "separation" to remove yourselves from the situation, explore yourselves (and others) and ideally return to each other once you realize what you'd lose?

Some people can do it as mental experiment, calculating what they'd gain and what they'd lose by leaving someone, but others need to actually live it out.

Were I "living it out," I think that seeing other people would be absolutely essential to convincing myself that the spouse was truly what I needed (missed) or convincing myself that the spouse actually WASN'T what I wanted.

Fortunately, I don't need to "live it out" to know what I'd be losing.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Sultana

Well, he had a counseling appointment last night, and I asked him to bring up the "dating other people" topic. Apparantly his counselor and I agree on this topic; it would not be good for our situation. So he's not going to, he seems fine with that, and I trust him.

Initially I was very concerned that just him wanting to start dating others already is a symptom of the end for everything before the separation even got off the ground. But especially after reading through the "how would you feel if you thought your ex had incestuous feelings" thread, I'm just gonna let it go, continue to trust him, and be grateful for his honesty in telling me how he feels. For a long time I felt that he wasn't honest with himself, so how could he be honest with me?...so now, it looks like he's being honest with himself and the things that he's thinking about, and that's good, however this ends. Seriously.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.