Vetting the GOP VP Nominee Online, in Realtime - Page 5 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Rekna · 09-13-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paq

straight from the horses mouth:

did you just call palin a horse?????!?!????

ottopilot · 09-13-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

otto...do you really think its honest for any politician to keep inferring that there was some connection between 9/11 and Iraq?

With Cheney, at least we know its a clear case of attempting to manipulate the facts and perpetuate a falsehood for political purposes.

With Palin, we dont know if that is the case of if she is simply ignorant of the facts.

We do know that on several occasions,McCain seemed to have a hard time being able to distinguish between Shiia and Sunni.

IMO, neither Paln's intentional or ignorant 9/11-Iraq reference nor McCain's Shiia-Sunni confusion inspires alot of confidence.

I believe my comment was in response to host's assertion that Palin is Cheny. Sort of transferring his hatred for Bush to the next possible surrogate. Makes sense in a clinical way.

and speaking of clinical...

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

ace, I've stopped engaging you for the most part, because your citations are regularly so "over the top"

Regarding your question... Do you think it's honest to grossly over-simplify the complexities of association, cause, and effect regarding the ever-shifting multi-interests of aligned and non-aligned Islamic militant movements?

Which 9/11 Iraq reference are you referring... in host's post, news articles, the 20/20 interview?

Paq · 09-13-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

did you just call palin a horse?????!?!????

I would never insult horses like that...some of them are actually curious about the grass on the other side of the fence...

oh, and ebert..laying down the law:

[quote]
BY ROGER EBERT Sun-Times Movie Critic

I think I might be able to explain some of Sarah Palin's appeal. She's the "American Idol" candidate. Consider. What defines an "American Idol" finalist? They're good-looking, work well on television, have a sunny personality, are fierce competitors, and so talented, why, they're darned near the real thing. There's a reason "American Idol" gets such high ratings. People identify with the contestants. They think, Hey, that could be me up there on that show!

My problem is, I don't want to be up there. I don't want a vice president who is darned near good enough. I want a vice president who is better, wiser, well-traveled, has met world leaders, who three months ago had an opinion on Iraq. Someone who doesn't repeat bald- faced lies about earmarks and the Bridge to Nowhere. Someone who doesn't appoint Alaskan politicians to "study" global warming, because, hello! It has been studied. The returns are convincing enough that John McCain and Barack Obama are darned near in agreement.
» Click to enlarge image
Sun-Times movie critic Roger Ebert and vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

(File/AP)

I would also want someone who didn't make a teeny little sneer when referring to "people who go to the Ivy League." When I was a teen I dreamed of going to Harvard, but my dad, an electrician, told me, "Boy, we don't have the money. Thank your lucky stars you were born in Urbana and can go to the University of Illinois right here in town." So I did, very happily. Although Palin gets laughs when she mentions the "elite" Ivy League, she sure did attend the heck out of college.

Five different schools in six years. What was that about?

And how can a politician her age have never have gone to Europe? My dad had died, my mom was working as a book-keeper and I had a job at the local newspaper when, at 19, I scraped together $240 for a charter flight to Europe. I had Arthur Frommer's $5 a Day under my arm, started in London, even rented a Vespa and drove in the traffic of Rome. A few years later, I was able to send my mom, along with the $15 a Day book.

You don't need to be a pointy-headed elitist to travel abroad. You need curiosity and a hunger to see the world. What kind of a person (who has the money) arrives at the age of 44 and has only been out of the country once, on an official tour to Iraq? Sarah Palin's travel record is that of a provincial, not someone who is equipped to deal with global issues.

But some people like that. She's never traveled to Europe, Asia, Africa, South America or Down Under? That makes her like them. She didn't go to Harvard? Good for her! There a lot of hockey moms who haven't seen London, but most of them would probably love to, if they had the dough. And they'd be proud if one of their kids won a scholarship to Harvard.

I trust the American people will see through Palin, and save the Republic in November. The most damning indictment against her is that she considered herself a good choice to be a heartbeat away. That shows bad judgment.

[/quote}

Roger Ebert on Sarah Palin: The American Idol candidate :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Other Views

I especially love the last paragraph.

Generally, i'm not an ebert fan, but i must say, he vocalizes almost exactly how i feel about Palin. I want someone who doesn't sneer at someone going to harvard on scholarship and grants, etc, or someone who doesn't joke about being a community organizer or someone who is actually curious about the world. What politician didn't leave the country till their 40's.

it's amazing to me. just amazing...

dc_dux · 09-13-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

I believe my comment was in response to host's assertion that Palin is Cheny. Sort of transferring his hatred for Bush to the next possible surrogate. Makes sense in a clinical way.

In one respect, Palin is acting more like Bush than Cheney.

She is attempting to prevent the legislature from performing its oversight responsibility in a timely manner by seeking to block subpoenas necessary to complete a legitimate legislative investigation of a potential abuse of power by the executive.

Paq · 09-13-2008, 06:01 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us...in&oref=slogin

This sounds vaguely like a president i know who was in power from 2001 to 2009...

Quote:

Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes

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By JO BECKER, PETER S. GOODMAN AND MICHAEL POWELL
Published: September 13, 2008

This article is by Jo Becker, Peter S. Goodman and
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Michael Powell.

WASILLA, Alaska — Gov. Sarah Palin lives by the maxim that all politics is local, not to mention personal.

So when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as a qualification for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages.

When Ms. Palin had to cut her first state budget, she avoided the legion of frustrated legislators and mayors. Instead, she huddled with her budget director and her husband, Todd, an oil field worker who is not a state employee, and vetoed millions of dollars of legislative projects.

And four months ago, a Wasilla blogger, Sherry Whitstine, who chronicles the governor’s career with an astringent eye, answered her phone to hear an assistant to the governor on the line, she said.

“You should be ashamed!” Ivy Frye, the assistant, told her. “Stop blogging. Stop blogging right now!”

Ms. Palin walks the national stage as a small-town foe of “good old boy” politics and a champion of ethics reform. The charismatic 44-year-old governor draws enthusiastic audiences and high approval ratings. And as the Republican vice-presidential nominee, she points to her management experience while deriding her Democratic rivals, Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as speechmakers who never have run anything.

But an examination of her swift rise and record as mayor of Wasilla and then governor finds that her visceral style and penchant for attacking critics — she sometimes calls local opponents “haters” — contrasts with her carefully crafted public image.

Throughout her political career, she has pursued vendettas, fired officials who crossed her and sometimes blurred the line between government and personal grievance, according to a review of public records and interviews with 60 Republican and Democratic legislators and local officials.

Still, Ms. Palin has many supporters. As a two-term mayor she paved roads and built an ice rink, and as governor she has pushed through higher taxes on the oil companies that dominate one-third of the state’s economy. She stirs deep emotions. In Wasilla, many residents display unflagging affection, cheering “our Sarah” and hissing at her critics.

“She is bright and has unfailing political instincts,” said Steve Haycox, a history professor at the University of Alaska. “She taps very directly into anxieties about the economic future.”

“But,” he added, “her governing style raises a lot of hard questions.”

Ms. Palin declined to grant an interview for this article. The McCain-Palin campaign responded to some questions on her behalf and that of her husband, while referring others to the governor’s spokespeople, who did not respond.

Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell said Ms. Palin had conducted an accessible and effective administration in the public’s interest. “Everything she does is for the ordinary working people of Alaska,” he said.

In Wasilla, a builder said he complained to Mayor Palin when the city attorney put a stop-work order on his housing project. She responded, he said, by engineering the attorney’s firing.

Interviews show that Ms. Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy. The governor and her top officials sometimes use personal e-mail accounts for state business; dozens of e-mail messages obtained by The New York Times show that her staff members studied whether that could allow them to circumvent subpoenas seeking public records.

Rick Steiner, a University of Alaska professor, sought the e-mail messages of state scientists who had examined the effect of global warming on polar bears. (Ms. Palin said the scientists had found no ill effects, and she has sued the federal government to block the listing of the bears as endangered.) An administration official told Mr. Steiner that his request would cost $468,784 to process.

When Mr. Steiner finally obtained the e-mail messages — through a federal records request — he discovered that state scientists had in fact agreed that the bears were in danger, records show.

“Their secrecy is off the charts,” Mr. Steiner said.

State legislators are investigating accusations that Ms. Palin and her husband pressured officials to fire a state trooper who had gone through a messy divorce with her sister, charges that she denies. But interviews make clear that the Palins draw few distinctions between the personal and the political.

Last summer State Representative John Harris, the Republican speaker of the House, picked up his phone and heard Mr. Palin’s voice. The governor’s husband sounded edgy. He said he was unhappy that Mr. Harris had hired John Bitney as his chief of staff, the speaker recalled. Mr. Bitney was a high school classmate of the Palins and had worked for Ms. Palin. But she fired Mr. Bitney after learning that he had fallen in love with another longtime friend.

“I understood from the call that Todd wasn’t happy with me hiring John and he’d like to see him not there,” Mr. Harris said.

“The Palin family gets upset at personal issues,” he added. “And at our level, they want to strike back.”

Through a campaign spokesman, Mr. Palin said he “did not recall” referring to Mr. Bitney in the conversation.

Hometown Mayor

Laura Chase, the campaign manager during Ms. Palin’s first run for mayor in 1996, recalled the night the two women chatted about her ambitions.

“I said, ‘You know, Sarah, within 10 years you could be governor,’ ” Ms. Chase recalled. “She replied, ‘I want to be president.’ ”

Ms. Palin grew up in Wasilla, an old fur trader’s outpost and now a fast-growing exurb of Anchorage. The town sits in the Matanuska-Susitna Valley, edged by jagged mountains and birch forests. In the 1930s, the Roosevelt administration took farmers from the Dust Bowl area and resettled them here; their Democratic allegiances defined the valley for half a century.

In the past three decades, socially conservative Oklahomans and Texans have flocked north to the oil fields of Alaska. They filled evangelical churches around Wasilla and revived the Republican Party. Many of these working-class residents formed the electoral backbone for Ms. Palin, who ran for mayor on a platform of gun rights, opposition to abortion and the ouster of the “complacent” old guard.

After winning the mayoral election in 1996, Ms. Palin presided over a city rapidly outgrowing itself. Septic tanks had begun to pollute lakes, and residential lots were carved willy-nilly out of the woods. She passed road and sewer bonds, cut property taxes but raised the sales tax.

And, her supporters say, she cleaned out the municipal closet, firing veteran officials to make way for her own team. “She had an agenda for change and for doing things differently,” said Judy Patrick, a City Council member at the time.

But careers were turned upside down. The mayor quickly fired the town’s museum director, John Cooper. Later, she sent an aide to the museum to talk to the three remaining employees. “He told us they only wanted two,” recalled Esther West, one of the three, “and we had to pick who was going to be laid off.” The three quit as one.

Ms. Palin cited budget difficulties for the museum cuts. Mr. Cooper thought differently, saying the museum had become a microcosm of class and cultural conflicts in town. “It represented that the town was becoming more progressive, and they didn’t want that,” he said.

Days later, Mr. Cooper recalled, a vocal conservative, Steve Stoll, sidled up to him. Mr. Stoll had supported Ms. Palin and had a long-running feud with Mr. Cooper. “He said: ‘Gotcha, Cooper,’ ” Mr. Cooper said.

Mr. Stoll did not recall that conversation, although he said he supported Ms. Palin’s campaign and was pleased when she fired Mr. Cooper.

In 1997, Ms. Palin fired the longtime city attorney, Richard Deuser, after he issued the stop-work order on a home being built by Don Showers, another of her campaign supporters.

Your attorney, Mr. Showers told Ms. Palin, is costing me lots of money.

“She told me she’d like to see him fired,” Mr. Showers recalled. “But she couldn’t do it herself because the City Council hires the city attorney.” Ms. Palin told him to write the council members to complain.

Meanwhile, Ms. Palin pushed the issue from the inside. “She started the ball rolling,” said Ms. Patrick, who also favored the firing. Mr. Deuser was soon replaced by Ken Jacobus, then the State Republican Party’s general counsel.

“Professionals were either forced out or fired,” Mr. Deuser said.

Ms. Palin ordered city employees not to talk to the press. And she used city money to buy a white Suburban for the mayor’s use — employees sarcastically called it the mayor-mobile.

The new mayor also tended carefully to her evangelical base. She appointed a pastor to the town planning board. And she began to eye the library. For years, social conservatives had pressed the library director to remove books they considered immoral.

“People would bring books back censored,” recalled former Mayor John Stein, Ms. Palin’s predecessor. “Pages would get marked up or torn out.”

Witnesses and contemporary news accounts say Ms. Palin asked the librarian about removing books from the shelves. The McCain-Palin presidential campaign says Ms. Palin never advocated censorship.

But in 1995, Ms. Palin, then a city councilwoman, told colleagues that she had noticed the book “Daddy’s Roommate” on the shelves and that it did not belong there, according to Ms. Chase and Mr. Stein. Ms. Chase read the book, which helps children understand homosexuality, and said it was inoffensive; she suggested that Ms. Palin read it.

“Sarah said she didn’t need to read that stuff,” Ms. Chase said. “It was disturbing that someone would be willing to remove a book from the library and she didn’t even read it.”

“I’m still proud of Sarah,” she added, “but she scares the bejeebers out of me.”

Reform Crucible

Restless ambition defined Ms. Palin in the early years of this decade. She raised money for Senator Ted Stevens, a Republican from the state; finished second in the 2002 Republican primary for lieutenant governor; and sought to fill the seat of Senator Frank H. Murkowski when he ran for governor.

Mr. Murkowski appointed his daughter to the seat, but as a consolation prize, he gave Ms. Palin the $125,000-a-year chairmanship of a state commission overseeing oil and gas drilling.

Ms. Palin discovered that the state Republican leader, Randy Ruedrich, a commission member, was conducting party business on state time and favoring regulated companies. When Mr. Murkowski failed to act on her complaints, she quit and went public.

The Republican establishment shunned her. But her break with the gentlemen’s club of oil producers and political power catapulted her into the public eye.

“She was honest and forthright,” said Jay Kerttula, a former Democratic state senator from Palmer.

Ms. Palin entered the 2006 primary for governor as a formidable candidate.

In the middle of the primary, a conservative columnist in the state, Paul Jenkins, unearthed e-mail messages showing that Ms. Palin had conducted campaign business from the mayor’s office. Ms. Palin handled the crisis with a street fighter’s guile.

“I told her it looks like she did the same thing that Randy Ruedrich did,” Mr. Jenkins recalled. “And she said, ‘Yeah, what I did was wrong.’ ”

Mr. Jenkins hung up and decided to forgo writing about it. His phone rang soon after.

Mr. Jenkins said a reporter from Fairbanks, reading from a Palin news release, demanded to know why he was “smearing” her. “Now I look at her and think: ‘Man, you’re slick,’ ” he said.

Ms. Palin won the primary, and in the general election she faced Tony Knowles, the former two-term Democratic governor, and Andrew Halcro, an independent.

Not deeply versed in policy, Ms. Palin skipped some candidate forums; at others, she flipped through hand-written, color-coded index cards strategically placed behind her nameplate.

Before one forum, Mr. Halcro said he saw aides shovel reports at Ms. Palin as she crammed. Her showman’s instincts rarely failed. She put the pile of reports on the lectern. Asked what she would do about health care policy, she patted the stack and said she would find an answer in the pile of solutions.

“She was fresh, and she was tomorrow,” said Michael Carey, a former editorial page editor for The Anchorage Daily News. “She just floated along like Mary Poppins.”

Government

Half a century after Alaska became a state, Ms. Palin was inaugurated as governor in Fairbanks and took up the reformer’s sword.

As she assembled her cabinet and made other state appointments, those with insider credentials were now on the outs. But a new pattern became clear. She surrounded herself with people she has known since grade school and members of her church.

Mr. Parnell, the lieutenant governor, praised Ms. Palin’s appointments. “The people she hires are competent, qualified, top-notch people,” he said.

Ms. Palin chose Talis Colberg, a borough assemblyman from the Matanuska valley, as her attorney general, provoking a bewildered question from the legal community: “Who?” Mr. Colberg, who did not return calls, moved from a one-room building in the valley to one of the most powerful offices in the state, supervising some 500 people.

“I called him and asked, ‘Do you know how to supervise people?’ ” said a family friend, Kathy Wells. “He said, ‘No, but I think I’ll get some help.’ ”

The Wasilla High School yearbook archive now doubles as a veritable directory of state government. Ms. Palin appointed Mr. Bitney, her former junior high school band-mate, as her legislative director and chose another classmate, Joe Austerman, to manage the economic development office for $82,908 a year. Mr. Austerman had established an Alaska franchise for Mailboxes Etc.

To her supporters — and with an 80 percent approval rating, she has plenty — Ms. Palin has lifted Alaska out of a mire of corruption. She gained the passage of a bill that tightens the rules covering lobbyists. And she rewrote the tax code to capture a greater share of oil and gas sale proceeds.

“Does anybody doubt that she’s a tough negotiator?” said State Representative Carl Gatto, Republican of Palmer.

Yet recent controversy has marred Ms. Palin’s reform credentials. In addition to the trooper investigation, lawmakers in April accused her of improperly culling thousands of e-mail addresses from a state database for a mass mailing to rally support for a policy initiative.

While Ms. Palin took office promising a more open government, her administration has battled to keep information secret. Her inner circle discussed the benefit of using private e-mail addresses. An assistant told her it appeared that such e-mail messages sent to a private address on a “personal device” like a BlackBerry “would be confidential and not subject to subpoena.”

Ms. Palin and aides use their private e-mail addresses for state business. A campaign spokesman said the governor copied e-mail messages to her state account “when there was significant state business.”

On Feb. 7, Frank Bailey, a high-level aide, wrote to Ms. Palin’s state e-mail address to discuss appointments. Another aide fired back: “Frank, this is not the governor’s personal account.”

Mr. Bailey responded: “Whoops~!”

Mr. Bailey, a former midlevel manager at Alaska Airlines who worked on Ms. Palin’s campaign, has been placed on paid leave; he has emerged as a central figure in the trooper investigation.

Another confidante of Ms. Palin’s is Ms. Frye, 27. She worked as a receptionist for State Senator Lyda Green before she joined Ms. Palin’s campaign for governor. Now Ms. Frye earns $68,664 as a special assistant to the governor. Her frequent interactions with Ms. Palin’s children have prompted some lawmakers to refer to her as “the babysitter,” a title that Ms. Frye disavows.

Like Mr. Bailey, she is an effusive cheerleader for her boss.

“YOU ARE SO AWESOME!” Ms. Frye typed in an e-mail message to Ms. Palin in March.

Many lawmakers contend that Ms. Palin is overly reliant on a small inner circle that leaves her isolated. Democrats and Republicans alike describe her as often missing in action. Since taking office in 2007, Ms. Palin has spent 312 nights at her Wasilla home, some 600 miles to the north of the governor’s mansion in Juneau, records show.

During the last legislative session, some lawmakers became so frustrated with her absences that they took to wearing “Where’s Sarah?” pins.

Many politicians say they typically learn of her initiatives — and vetoes — from news releases.

Mayors across the state, from the larger cities to tiny municipalities along the southeastern fiords, are even more frustrated. Often, their letters go unanswered and their pleas ignored, records and interviews show.

Last summer, Mayor Mark Begich of Anchorage, a Democrat, pressed Ms. Palin to meet with him because the state had failed to deliver money needed to operate city traffic lights. At one point, records show, state officials told him to just turn off a dozen of them. Ms. Palin agreed to meet with Mr. Begich when he threatened to go public with his anger, according to city officials.

At an Alaska Municipal League gathering in Juneau in January, mayors across the political spectrum swapped stories of the governor’s remoteness. How many of you, someone asked, have tried to meet with her? Every hand went up, recalled Mayor Fred Shields of Haines Borough. And how many met with her? Just a few hands rose. Ms. Palin soon walked in, delivered a few remarks and left for an anti-abortion rally.

The administration’s e-mail correspondence reveals a siege-like atmosphere. Top aides keep score, demean enemies and gloat over successes. Even some who helped engineer her rise have felt her wrath.

Dan Fagan, a prominent conservative radio host and longtime friend of Ms. Palin, urged his listeners to vote for her in 2006. But when he took her to task for raising taxes on oil companies, he said, he found himself branded a “hater.”

It is part of a pattern, Mr. Fagan said, in which Ms. Palin characterizes critics as “bad people who are anti-Alaska.”

As Ms. Palin’s star ascends, the McCain campaign, as often happens in national races, is controlling the words of those who know her well. Her mother-in-law, Faye Palin, has been asked not to speak to reporters, and aides sit in on interviews with old friends.

At a recent lunch gathering, an official with the Wasilla Chamber of Commerce asked its members to refer all calls from reporters to the governor’s office. Dianne Woodruff, a city councilwoman, shook her head.

“I was thinking, I don’t remember giving up my First Amendment rights,” Ms. Woodruff said. “Just because you’re not going gaga over Sarah doesn’t mean you can’t speak your mind.”

Paq · 09-15-2008, 09:09 PM

Count the Lies - McCainPedia

wow...

YouTube - McCain's YouTube Problem Just Became a Nightmare

but this is appalling. Kerry is still the flipflopper?

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

Count the Lies - McCainPedia

wow...

YouTube - McCain's YouTube Problem Just Became a Nightmare but this is appalling. Kerry is still the flipflopper?

To be fair you could do the same thing with Obama. Although to get anywhere near 52 bald face lies with Obama you'd have to lie. Something the McCain camp and the GOP seem to have no problem doing. And why not this has worked well for them for about the last 8 years.

Sad thing is the McCain that ran in 2000 and even supported Bush in '04 doesn't sound anything like the McCain of today. I seriously considering voting for him until he started shifting and pandering to the GOP base. I find it seriously not funny he still claims to be some maverick.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

And why not this has worked well for them for about the last 8 years.

Yes, and you know what the difference is? The media isn't buying it this time. Yesterday FOX MOTHERFUCKING NEWS called out a McCain surrogate for lies about the Obama tax plan. The media were complicit in the lies of the Bush campaign and administration, and this time they've picked a different pony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Sad thing is the McCain that ran in 2000 and even supported Bush in '04 doesn't sound anything like the McCain of today. I seriously considering voting for him until he started shifting and pandering to the GOP base. I find it seriously not funny he still claims to be some maverick.

Yep. Back in 2000 I said that if McCain ever got nominated I'd have a VERY hard time voting. Turns out most decidedly not to be the case.

roachboy · 09-16-2008, 04:53 AM

keep in mind that even fox has its professional integrity and institutional position to protect---i briefly look at the nitwots on cnn last night during their "political" coverage and the talking heads seem to have adopted a similar position--arbiter, making up their minds based on "facts" so you don't have to. it's kinda repellent viewing. i went back to "i love money" which at least is honest.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Yes, and you know what the difference is? The media isn't buying it this time. Yesterday FOX MOTHERFUCKING NEWS called out a McCain surrogate for lies about the Obama tax plan. The media were complicit in the lies of the Bush campaign and administration, and this time they've picked a different pony.

Yep. Back in 2000 I said that if McCain ever got nominated I'd have a VERY hard time voting. Turns out most decidedly not to be the case.

The media may not be but the media do nothing but lie about the right. Don't you know anything? I mean just look at the way the "media" handled Bush- Bush makes a bone head move and the "media" has the balls to go and question his judgment. Now the media has it in for poor Sarah Palin. They have the nerve to ask her questions like "why are you qualified to be VP?" "What foreign policy experience do you have?" Clearly these are sexist questions designed to slam her, obviously the media can not be trusted.

jorgelito · 09-16-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

To be fair you could do the same thing with Obama. Although to get anywhere near 52 bald face lies with Obama you'd have to lie. Something the McCain camp and the GOP seem to have no problem doing. And why not this has worked well for them for about the last 8 years.

Sad thing is the McCain that ran in 2000 and even supported Bush in '04 doesn't sound anything like the McCain of today. I seriously considering voting for him until he started shifting and pandering to the GOP base. I find it seriously not funny he still claims to be some maverick.

Yep, that's exactly what happened to me. I was excited about McCain until I realized this was not the McCain I thought I knew.

Paq · 09-16-2008, 09:32 AM

well, at the beginning of this race, i thought "gee, i would be ok with both of these, so i'm really..for the first time in years, not that concerned with who wins. Mccain is not really republican enough and seems to be logical in his thought processes, i loved when he called out the republicans for pandering to the far right religious groups, and he has generally been a bit of a freer thinker....

then i saw the mccain that came out after he won the nomination..one who will say and do anything to get elected. It's insanely disgusting to have karl rove call him (and the dems) out on excessive lies...that's just absurd. It's also absurd that he would run that type of campaign when he was snowblowed in the 2000 primaries...

ab..so..lutely...disgusting.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Yep, that's exactly what happened to me. I was excited about McCain until I realized this was not the McCain I thought I knew.

I liked Obama a whole lot more before the mud started to fly too, hasn't stopped me from donating to him or supporting him.

aceventura3 · 09-16-2008, 12:24 PM

Anyone going to the Obama fundraiser and Barbara Streisand performance in Beverly Hills?

Anyone?

Please don't all raise your hands at once.

Anyone?

Paq · 09-16-2008, 12:51 PM

i don't really see what that has to do with anyone...

anyway, if you thought Obama's reverend was scary..check palin's church:

Sarah Palin's Churches and The Third Wave on Vimeo

aceventura3 · 09-16-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

i don't really see what that has to do with anyone...

anyway, if you thought Obama's reverend was scary..check palin's church:
Sarah Palin's Churches and The Third Wave on Vimeo

Actually, I understood Rev. Wright. I understood his style and his point. I thought the media attack was unfair, out of context and over the top.

A person's religion is a private matter, in my opinion. I also think what a person does at a bar at 3 a.m. is a private matter as long as they are not breaking the law. Video cameras should not be at either location.

I am consistent that way, but that is just me. I find it ironic how Democrats make an argument against Republicans and then we find they are guilty of the same thing.

ottopilot · 09-16-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Anyone going to the Obama fundraiser and Barbara Streisand performance in Beverly Hills?

Anyone?

Please don't all raise your hands at once.

Anyone?

Babs is like buttah... I can't make it to the dinnah, but I am going to tune in to Coffee Talk the day aftah. Who could forget this classic? A big stick of buttah.

jorgelito · 09-16-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Anyone going to the Obama fundraiser and Barbara Streisand performance in Beverly Hills?

Anyone?

Please don't all raise your hands at once.

Anyone?

No, it's too expensive. I guess the Dems are only accessible to the rich. I wanted to go see Obama but no access for us plain folk. Especially in the glamor of Hollywood.

But seriously, isn't this the way political parties do business anyways? The Republicans have failed hard at reaching out to us independent swing voters. At least the Dems have made some lip service. We will see.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 06 : 30 : 06-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Babs is like buttah... I can't make it to the dinnah, but I am going to tune in to Coffee Talk the day aftah. Who could forget this classic? A big stick of buttah.

Ha! I remember that one, so funny. Ah, SNL, what happened to you, you used to be so good...

Anyways, thanks for the comic relief. Maybe it will break some of the tension in here these days.

Carry on.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 06 : 33 : 58-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I liked Obama a whole lot more before the mud started to fly too, hasn't stopped me from donating to him or supporting him.

Hmm, interesting, I think I had the opposite effect. I am drifting towards Obama because I felt he hasn't slung any mud (or at least not much). However, the latest mud fracas (not Obama's doing) is so ugly I am turned off by the whole thing. But in the end, the effect is I have even less respect for the media and no trust in their dubious credibility now more than ever. And also the Dems (and Reps) rabid supporters who are absolutely crazy in slinging mud.

With both sides flinging feces at each other, they better be careful because it's us moderate, independent, swing voters who are in the middle getting covered in shit.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 06 : 34 : 29-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

well, at the beginning of this race, i thought "gee, i would be ok with both of these, so i'm really..for the first time in years, not that concerned with who wins. Mccain is not really republican enough and seems to be logical in his thought processes, i loved when he called out the republicans for pandering to the far right religious groups, and he has generally been a bit of a freer thinker....

then i saw the mccain that came out after he won the nomination..one who will say and do anything to get elected. It's insanely disgusting to have karl rove call him (and the dems) out on excessive lies...that's just absurd. It's also absurd that he would run that type of campaign when he was snowblowed in the 2000 primaries...

ab..so..lutely...disgusting.

Yep, agreed, same here. So disappointing.

Tully Mars · 09-16-2008, 02:39 PM

Well McCain just did a 25 or 28K private fund raising dinner. So yes, I think this is the way it's done by both parties.

dc_dux · 09-16-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Anyone going to the Obama fundraiser and Barbara Streisand performance in Beverly Hills?

Anyone?

Please don't all raise your hands at once.

Anyone?

We know how the conservatives love to play the "hollywood elitist" card....but lets look at some numbers.

The donor demographics paint an interesting picture:

50% of Obama's contributions are from donors of $200 or less; for McCain, the figure is 32%

29% of Obama's contributions are from donors of $2,300+; for McCain, the figure is 54%

So who is the candidate of choice of the "common" people and who is candidate of choice of the "fat cats"?.

aceventura3 · 09-16-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

We know how the conservatives love to play the "hollywood elitist" card....but lets look at some numbers.

The donor demographics paint an interesting picture:

50% of Obama's contributions are from donors of $200 or less; for McCain, the figure is 32%

29% of Obama's contributions are from donors of $2,300+; for McCain, the figure is 54%

So who is the candidate of choice of the "common" people and who is candidate of choice of the "fat cats"?.

Who was Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac donating to? Why, what did they get in return?

dc_dux · 09-16-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Who was Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac donating to? Why, what did they get in return?

Fannie and Freddie pacs have contributed $millions to both parties for years...and to both candidates this year.

Here are some other interesting facts about Fannie and Freddie:

Aquiles Suarez, listed as an economic adviser to the McCain campaign in a July 2007 McCain press release, was formerly the director of government and industry relations for Fannie Mae. The Senate Lobbying Database says Suarez oversaw the lending giant's $47,510,000 lobbying campaign from 2003 to 2006.

According to the Senate Lobbying Database, the lobbying firm of Charlie Black, one of McCain's top aides, made at least $820,000 working for Freddie Mac from 1999 to 2004.

The McCain campaign's vice-chair Wayne Berman and its congressional liaison John Green made $1.14 million working on behalf of Fannie Mae for lobbying firm Ogilvy Government Relations. Green made an additional $180,000 from Freddie Mac.

Arther B. Culvahouse Jr., the VP vetter who helped John McCain select Sarah Palin, earned $80,000 from Fannie Mae in 2003 and 2004, while working for lobbying and law firm O'Melveny & Myers LLP
McCain's Fannie and Freddie Connections

At least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied on behalf of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, netting at least $12.3 million in fees over the past nine years.
Fannie, Freddie spent $200M to buy influence

So...what's your point ace?

I think we need serious comprehensive lobbying reform. The reform that the Congress enacted last year...the first time in years...was only a small step.....and McCain (along with 13 fellow Republicans) voted against it.

hannukah harry · 09-16-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I think we need serious comprehensive lobbying reform. The reform that the Congress enacted last year...the first time in years...was only a small step.....and McCain (along with 13 fellow Republicans) voted against it.

i think we also need to redo election campaign reform (which i think mccain had a hand in the last time it was done like 10 years ago). i think we need to make this whole 527 group thing illegal. or if it's allowed, that all ads, from the official campaign or those supporting a candidate, approved by the campaign so that all candidates have to stand by what is said, and can't let others do their dirty work of spreading lies. but that might be a reform topic for another thread.

Paq · 09-16-2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Actually, I understood Rev. Wright. I understood his style and his point. I thought the media attack was unfair, out of context and over the top.

A person's religion is a private matter, in my opinion. I also think what a person does at a bar at 3 a.m. is a private matter as long as they are not breaking the law. Video cameras should not be at either location.

I am consistent that way, but that is just me. I find it ironic how Democrats make an argument against Republicans and then we find they are guilty of the same thing.

I think people need to understand: "Politicians...are not 'superpeople' and we all have ties that we probably dont' want or need". so i went to a church that was crazy...who cares. I have a friend of a friend of a friend who did ____. I was 8 and a community leader later turned out to be john wayne gayce, ..seriously, who cares. I didn't do those things. Heck, half of my first grade class is in jail, the other half are lawyers, who do you think the media would link me to....

Personally, i go with teh issues and how i think the person will represent themselves and my beliefs and I agreed with mccain in 2000....but after seeing what he's done and how he's proven he'll swing with the wind...f that..then the palin nomination..definitle F that, so obama has my vote and then some..

Oh, and this just in..After agreeing to cooperate with the investigation into troopergate (why is everything a gate, be original)...her loyal Attorney general....stated that state employees will not honor subpoenas....
wtf
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080917/...fwrT2seLrCw5R4

and harry, i WHOLEHEARTEDLY aagree with the 527 group. They can say and do anything, can be linked to either party wholeheartedly and they are absolutely unaccountable. absolute bullhockey.

asaris · 09-17-2008, 04:26 AM

The problem is that you can't make 527s illegal, and in general, you can only do so much in terms of campaign finance reform. The Supreme Court has ruled that donations are a form of speech, and so protected by the First Amendment.

aceventura3 · 09-17-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

So...what's your point ace?

Just wanted to know how you might approach data that may not support your position. I have been accused of "cherry picking" information, are you "cherry picking"? Feel free to consider the question rhetorical. I am not really interested in who contributes to who. I don't think most politicians would sell their votes for political campaign contributions.

dc_dux · 09-17-2008, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Just wanted to know how you might approach data that may not support your position.

So...there was really no point to your "Who was Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac donating to? Why, what did they get in return?" post. I get it!

On the other hand, it was an effective way to avoid acknowledging that half of Obama's contributions have come from small contributors (under $200).....a record high percentage for any election in our lifetime. I dont know what you think might be "cherry-picked" about that.

abaya · 09-17-2008, 08:08 AM

Jumping in here: Ace, I was wondering why you didn't reply to my last post here... only because it was in response to something you said. If you didn't feel like replying, then that's fine. Just curious.

aceventura3 · 09-17-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

So...there was really no point to your "Who was Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac donating to? Why, what did they get in return?" post. I get it!

Did you read my post #186. You often give us information about who is contributing to Republicans, but I have not seen where you have done the same with Democrats. You seem to suggest that the contributions are a corrupting influence, perhaps it is in some isolated cases. But I don't think it is the norm, do you? So my point was more along the lines of your lack of a point.

And I took a jab at the whole "cherry picking" thing. I admit I do it. Whatever it means to you I don't know, but I assume anything I read has a point of view and is subject to critical thinking and questioning on my part, including fact checks.

Quote:

On the other hand, it was an effective way to avoid acknowledging that half of Obama's contributions have come from small contributors (under $200).....a record high percentage for any election in our lifetime. I dont know what you think might be "cherry-picked" about that.

Acknowledged. Obama is getting many people involved in politics who are normally apathetic. I think that is good for our country. I think political contributions is connected to free speech, and there should not be any artificial limits or restriction. I think voters are smart enough to vote for people of their choice and are not unduly influenced by available campaign funds at certain levels. For example if it takes $100,000 to effectively run a mayoral race in a small town, having $1 million won't make a difference in my opinion.
-----Added 17/9/2008 at 12 : 26 : 28-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

So that's all you need to believe in her? Interesting standards. I know a shit-ton of people who can live up to those standards.

I think there are a "shit-ton" of people who could be President/Vice President, in Congress or local/state political office. I don't think the basis of our government was founded on the principle that only "elitist" could hold high office.

Quote:

As for Biden, well... I'll take humility (even fake humility!) any day, over someone who thinks she's "wired" to be VP. But hey, as long as SHE says she's "ready to lead," it MUST BE TRUE!!! Because if you say something, it becomes real, right? Maybe we really do live in Harry Potter-land.

Is this the post I missed?

He did not endorse Obama during the primaries, why?
He said Obama was not qualified, why?
He was running against Obama, but now he thinks Obama is the answer, why?

I see a pattern with Biden and the "fake" thing.

abaya · 09-17-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Is this the post I missed?

Nope. It was this one.

aceventura3 · 09-17-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Oh, darn those Pseudo- Intellectuals In DC! Always fouling things up for Average Folk, aren't they?

God forbid that intelligence and critical thinking skills should play a part in someone becoming president or vice-president of the United States of America.
Clearly, Democrats who have any kind of IQ should not even bother running, because it doesn't get them anywhere with the average population. Really, the Democrats shoot too high, that's their problem. People can't take anything Above Average in this country, after all.

I think some of our greatest leaders have been people who are or were extremely intelligent. The problem is with people who think they are smarter than others, true or not. For example I personally think Al Gore thinks he is smarter than the average American and I think he is wrong. I find it ironic that "smart" people get defeated by "dumb" people like Bush and Reagan. Perhaps, the bottom line is that those people are not as smart as they think they are.

Now we have Obama, who talked about Clarance Thomas' lack of intellect. And we have Biden who told a person the he thought he was smarter than he was. There is a pattern of this that irritates me. Pretty condescending, isn't it?

Quote:

Now, about honesty. Really? We're talking about politicians, here. None of them can be honest, it's just part of the job. But talking about any kind of foreign policy from the perspective of being able to "see Russia from here!"... yeah. I just can't even fathom how that begins to appeal to anyone, but obviously I am one of those meddling elites, right?

Well, that's fine. I'll go sit in my Elite Chair now and read some Elite News and have some Elite Dinner, and give my Elite Nerves a break before an Elite Screw comes loose.

/done here for a while.

I disagree. I thought Bush was honest. I have no idea how people say they were surprised by his actions as President. When he ran for reelection he said he was going to "stay the course" in Iraq. He said he was going to do whatever needed to be done to keep the nation safe - hence Gitmo, wiretapes, extreme questioning of terrorists, etc. He selected Chaney as his VP - he wrote the book on Executive Power, hence the fights with Congress on the issue. Etc. Etc. Etc. No surprises and he did what he said he was going to do.

Poppinjay · 09-17-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

The problem is with people who think they are smarter than others, true or not.

Yes, I understand this is the prime cause of AIDS. Also, wanting to be president causes ringworm.

Intelligence itself only causes the flu.

And an Ivy league education creates tornadoes.

abaya · 09-17-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I find it ironic that "smart" people get defeated by "dumb" people like Bush and Reagan. Perhaps, the bottom line is that those people are not as smart as they think they are.

No. I think it's because the average American wants to vote for someone who is "just like him/her," and usually, that means voting for someone of average intelligence. You cannot ignore the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades much of American culture... it has been around for a very long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura

Now we have Obama, who talked about Clarance Thomas' lack of intellect. And we have Biden who told a person the he thought he was smarter than he was. There is a pattern of this that irritates me. Pretty condescending, isn't it?

I haven't heard about these things lately, but if they are true... well quite honestly, I don't care how condescending they are. Frankly, ALL politicians are condescending in private... no matter what their public stripes are. They are all just trying to figure out a way to hoodwink a majority of the population, and in doing so, they assume that you are going to follow their herd and be persuaded by their propaganda. They all believe they are smarter than you. What I care about is whether or not they really ARE intelligent, and if they are smarter than me--then all the better. However, I do not want someone that I can "relate to" as president. This country needs a lot more than someone on my level, to run things. It needs someone who really is WAY above me in terms of intelligence, critical thinking skills, and good judgment. But most Americans don't like those qualities. They want their "gut feeling" to be fulfilled, which means... I want our president to be like "me."

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura

I disagree. I thought Bush was honest. I have no idea how people say they were surprised by his actions as President.

Well, clearly I'm not going to get far with debating this point with you, if that is already your stance. From your words, I see that the whole premise for invading the Iraq war was 100% honesty and sincerity to you, and if you truly believe that, then we really can't get anywhere on the topic. And that's fine, because I don't want to go down that road on this thread.

Tully Mars · 09-17-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I think some of our greatest leaders have been people who are or were extremely intelligent. The problem is with people who think they are smarter than others, true or not. For example I personally think Al Gore thinks he is smarter than the average American and I think he is wrong. I find it ironic that "smart" people get defeated by "dumb" people like Bush and Reagan. Perhaps, the bottom line is that those people are not as smart as they think they are.

Depends on how you define smart. Gore scored a 1355 on his SAT's and his IQ is reported to be in the 130-135 range.

And for the record I don't think Bush Jr. is dumb he scored a 1206 on his SAT's. I don't know what his IQ is but given his SAT score I'd say it's not the 91 that been rumored on the Net.

So I don't think he's "dumb." But I also don't think he's honest.

jewels · 09-17-2008, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

No. I think it's because the average American wants to vote for someone who is "just like him/her," and usually, that means voting for someone of average intelligence. You cannot ignore the rampant anti-intellectualism that pervades much of American culture... it has been around for a very long time.

That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought about. Personally, I look for someone who's not like me and definitely of above-average intelligence.

I didn't know about this anti-intellectual movement. 'Scuse me while I get out from under my rock.

Is the average American a total idiot these days, or do we really believe that Joe Blow and hockey moms are great politicians because they're our neighbors and equals?

abaya · 09-17-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

I didn't know about this anti-intellectual movement. 'Scuse me while I get out from under my rock.

I don't think it's necessarily a movement... it's just something that has been very strong in American culture for a long time (I would say at least the last half of the 20th century). There's an interesting article about it here, though one might say it's biased because it's from an Elite Publication... but hopefully it helps somehow to explain the phenomenon, since I don't think I would do a very good job here:The Renaissance of Anti-Intellectualism

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

Is the average American a total idiot these days, or do we really believe that Joe Blow and hockey moms are great politicians because they're our neighbors and equals?

Excellent question--and I really think it's one of the cruxes around which this, and the last two, elections have turned.

jewels · 09-17-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

:The Renaissance of Anti-Intellectualism
Excellent question--and I really think it's one of the cruxes around which this, and the last two, elections have turned.

Fascinating. A sad statement, though, when an intelligent man's labeled an elitist. This is some scary shit.

Quote:

"Smartness and wickedness" were supposed to be generally coupled, and incompetence and goodness.

abaya · 09-17-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

Fascinating. A sad statement, though, when an intelligent man's labeled an elitist. This is some scary shit.

Yup, indeedy. Thing is, that article came out in December 2000, right as Bush was about to step into office. Seems America hasn't learned much in the last 8 years, eh?

jorgelito · 09-17-2008, 12:23 PM

Part of the problem is that the elite intellectuals have fueled the "anti-intellectual movement" themselves. I think there is an extreme gap in mutual understanding that keeps the divide wide open. The anti-everyman vitriol on this board is indicative of that sentiment along with "anti-intellectual" comments. The cheap name-calling on both sides (of which I am guilty of too on occasion *shame*) is what keeps politics form the real issues. Take that away and maybe we can get somewhere. Really, take away all the cheap shots, insults and name-calling and most of our threads will disappear. In its stead I would hope the remaining threads would be about the economy, labor, health care, education, foreign policy etc.

dc_dux · 09-17-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

... You seem to suggest that the contributions are a corrupting influence, perhaps it is in some isolated cases. But I don't think it is the norm, do you?

Evidently Palin does....concerning both campaign contributions and the influence of lobbyists.

In Palin's latest interview (a softball interview with Sean Hannity), she was asked about political donations from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:

HANNITY: Should there be an investigation in terms of the relationship between the political donations and then of course the bankruptcy that ensued and the impact on the economy?

PALIN: I think that’s significant, but even more significant is the role that the lobbyists play in an issue like this also. And in that cronyism — it’s symptomatic of the greater problem that we see right now in Washington and that is just that acceptance of the status quo.

Now that made my laugh, but McCain may not have found it to be so funny.

One can only wonder if she is aware of the fact that at least 20 McCain-Palin campaign staff and/or fundraisers have lobbied on behalf of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (and others for AIG) in recent years.

Or that the finance sector is the biggest bundler of contributions to McCain ($30 million) as opposed to Obama ($13.5 million).

09-16-2008, 04:53 AM	#169 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	keep in mind that even fox has its professional integrity and institutional position to protect---i briefly look at the nitwots on cnn last night during their "political" coverage and the talking heads seem to have adopted a similar position--arbiter, making up their minds based on "facts" so you don't have to. it's kinda repellent viewing. i went back to "i love money" which at least is honest. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-16-2008, 09:32 AM	#172 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	well, at the beginning of this race, i thought "gee, i would be ok with both of these, so i'm really..for the first time in years, not that concerned with who wins. Mccain is not really republican enough and seems to be logical in his thought processes, i loved when he called out the republicans for pandering to the far right religious groups, and he has generally been a bit of a freer thinker.... then i saw the mccain that came out after he won the nomination..one who will say and do anything to get elected. It's insanely disgusting to have karl rove call him (and the dems) out on excessive lies...that's just absurd. It's also absurd that he would run that type of campaign when he was snowblowed in the 2000 primaries... ab..so..lutely...disgusting. __________________ Live. Chris

09-16-2008, 12:24 PM	#174 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	Anyone going to the Obama fundraiser and Barbara Streisand performance in Beverly Hills? Anyone? Please don't all raise your hands at once. Anyone? __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

09-16-2008, 02:39 PM	#179 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Well McCain just did a 25 or 28K private fund raising dinner. So yes, I think this is the way it's done by both parties. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

09-17-2008, 04:26 AM	#185 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	The problem is that you can't make 527s illegal, and in general, you can only do so much in terms of campaign finance reform. The Supreme Court has ruled that donations are a form of speech, and so protected by the First Amendment. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

09-17-2008, 08:08 AM	#188 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Jumping in here: Ace, I was wondering why you didn't reply to my last post here... only because it was in response to something you said. If you didn't feel like replying, then that's fine. Just curious. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

09-17-2008, 12:23 PM	#199 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Part of the problem is that the elite intellectuals have fueled the "anti-intellectual movement" themselves. I think there is an extreme gap in mutual understanding that keeps the divide wide open. The anti-everyman vitriol on this board is indicative of that sentiment along with "anti-intellectual" comments. The cheap name-calling on both sides (of which I am guilty of too on occasion shame) is what keeps politics form the real issues. Take that away and maybe we can get somewhere. Really, take away all the cheap shots, insults and name-calling and most of our threads will disappear. In its stead I would hope the remaining threads would be about the economy, labor, health care, education, foreign policy etc. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter