host

Palin has only been McCain's official VP pick since late last week,,,,plenty discovered since the announcement.....and.....I suspect, much more to come. I doubt that the BBC report contains the whole story.

This BBC reporting is about the daughter of a politician committed to abstinence and who is a member of an organization distributing false, negative info about legal, safe, contraceptives.

How much time could Palin or her husband be spending with their daughter? Both have chosen
careers that either keep them away from home for long periods or are very demanding,

,,,,So why is a woman's right to choose whether or not to stay pregnant, any of these same "right to life" political party members' business? Why did the Alaska legislature, after the state Supreme Court struck down a parental notification requirement before an abortion can be performed at the request of a pregnant minor , quickly pass a new law with the same notification requirement?

Willravel

I remember when Chelsea Clinton was asked about President Bill Clinton's affair. I remember being really, really pissed about how terrible it was to include her in the sideshow. Chelsea didn't run for office, and she sure wasn't involved at all in President Bill Clinton's affair.

I know that I brought up the Palin/daughter baby swap theory elsewhere, but I did so in order to illustrate to the other side what it was like when one introduces something deeply personal to attack a politician—like attacking Obama because of Wright or because his father-in-law is a Muslim—, and Pan did understand it as something inappropriate (which was my hope).

Because McCain didn't allow his campaign or party more than a few days to vet Palin, it's likely that in the coming weeks we'll continue to get more and more crap that will show her to be literally the perfect storm of bad nominations. I think discussions about Palin may be better served if they examine her professional career and policies. Not understanding the job of VP, leaving her town's economy in shambles after being mayor for only a short time, being elected governor in order to restore ethics to the state and then being investigated herself for ethical violations, being pro-life and anti-gay, the fact that she was chosen because she doesn't have a y chromosome.

Stories about Bristol Palin's pregnancy and Sarah Palin's terrible decision to miss opportunity after opportunity to give birth to her son when she went into labor might be better to be left to liberal bloggers. The more she can be shown to officially be a bad pick by citing her professional career, the better.

Seaver

Hey everybody! It's a mountain!

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

roachboy

it's the republicans who got into bed with the evangelical right.
it's the republicans who took advantage of ralph reed's political mobilization skills in the context of the christian coalition.
so it's the republicans who chose to legitimate this kind of sanctimonious nonsense as an element in their platform.
live by the sword, die by the sword.

but like i said in the other thread, you have to feel for palin's daughter, who is 17 and has not been nominated for vice president and who obviously has alot of think through and now even more to think through. welcome to america.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

host

rb....(what's this "roachie" nonsense....I noticed who started it, and then he gained at least one copycat....), Palin could have considered the abuse of power investigation involving her and her husband, her lack of experience....she managed a tiny town and then, for 20 months, a state with a total population equivalent to ten percent of NYC...., and her daughter's "problem", and quietly left the stage.....she could have shown the wisdom and sensitivity to do that....even if McCain knew all of it and chose to pick her anyway....but she didn't.

She's put her daughter on stage, and it is truly sad that her daughter and her choices have been caught up in this. Her daughter did not choose a religious fanatic for a mother. Now she will be forced into an early marriage and an instant family....can't have the VP elect.... just before next Jan. 20th.... watching....along with the nation, as her first grandchild is placed in the arms of an adoptive mother,,,,

THE BIG ISSUE IS; IN REPUB-Christo worldview.....your pregnancy...what you choose to do in response to it..... is their effing business, and their pregnancy is their family's PRIVATE business, and none of yours!

Tully Mars

I don't think this is going to matter to the GOP voter anymore then Cheney's gay daughter.

I think if the tables were turned the right would be slicing and dicing this issue 24/7 on the babble news channels. If one of the Dem nominees had a pregnant teenage daughter this would be being played very differently. It would be on their talking points with a bullet and they wouldn't be saying "see what family values looks like." Which is basically what they're saying now.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Charlatan

I think you are right. If this was a democrat politician this would be played very differently. If one good thing comes out of this (besides the baby) I hope it is that we can remove this bit of political posturing -- family values -- out of the discourse.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

roachboy

host---there's no disagreement on this one. the response line is already taking shape ("this is the sort of thing regular families deal with" so "palin's one of you" which i suppose is understood as having worked in the context of cowboy george)..but the implications are all obvious of the state of affairs, all the way around.

even so, the kid's no in a good place---as a result of her mother's decisions in this case.

and there's also no doubt that were the situation reversed, the right sleaze machine would be on it like white on rice. and in such a reversed situation, i would also be wondering what about the kid in all this...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

forseti-6

Obama says Palin's family off-limits - CNN.com

I don't know if you've read this, but I give kudos to Barack Obama for realizing how much of a non-issue this is.

__________________
"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

djtestudo

Unfortunately it will be like everything else. HE won't talk about it, but others will do it for him.

And I agree that if this were the daughter of Joe Biden (just using him since he is the Democratic VP candidate), the Republicans would be doing the opposite of what they are doing. But so would the Democrats.

Ah, politics.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Tully Mars

I wish I could believe this will remove that bit of political BS from the discourse but I don't. They're already playing up the "see she keeping it, how much more family values can you get?" spin. This won't change anything.

Personally I'm glad Obama's come out and said her family off the table. I freaking hope the PAC's don't try to use this poor girls situation as a political issue. Leave the girl alone, she's got enough on her plate.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

host

Nice to see Palin experience a taste of the results of her own tiny POV and medieval thinking:


forseti-6...this one is for you:
Cheney had the sense to STFU about anti-gay issues......Palin was chosen because she was on a crusade to promote the batshit crazy christian fundy, controlling, anti-women, agenda....because McCain was deemed "weak" in that area..... If you think my description is too harsh, consider how many women had to suffer and die before they achieved the sexual and reproductive emancipation that put them in a position that men had enjoyed since the beginning of time. McCain, Palin, and the GOP want to voice threats against those rights? Eff them.....they are terrorists subverting women's reproductive health and rights, and Palin does not even know what is in her own best interest and in the best interests of her daughters. She's too brainwashed to be governor or VP.

She would force her own daughter to host and deliver a sexual assailant's baby:

hannukah harry

i don't like the idea of family members being dragged into the fray unwillingly, but her daughter seems to be a product of her mothers supported policies, and puts a face on the issue of teen pregnancy, like it or not. i think the dems should use this as a jumping off point for policy discussion/debate about sex ed and teen pregnancy, but they need to be very careful to not do it in a way that attacks the kid.

and things like palin's "terrible decisoin to miss opportunity after opportunity to give birth to her son when she went into labor" shouldn't be left to liberal bloggers. that is a perfect example of how she prioritizes things, and what kind of decision maker she is. as far as i'm concerned, it shows her to be totally irresponsible. the policies she supports, things she said to the press, done as mayor and govenor, just adds to the mountains of reasons i have for being against her.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

host

I remember, as if it was yesterday, my initial shocked reaction to how ignorant and extreme Dan Quayle seemed in the 1988 campaign when he told a Missouri high school audience that, if his wife was impregnated by a rapist, he would counsel her to have the child, but that she would be protected from pregnancy by a routine, post rape "D and C" procedure.

Now, this position has evolved to the point where, for some time now, Palin and like minded folks advocate changing the law to make abortion illegal in all instances not related directly to saving the life of the pregnant woman.

We must describe bat shit crazy extremism for what it is, and not be polite and dismiss it as everyone having a right to their beliefs. The GOP, McCain, and Palin are committed to eliminating the right to an abortion, universal sex education, and routine and easy availability to contraception techniques and products. Their support for this extremism has emboldened some pharmacists to refuse to fill prescription orders duly signed by a physician, and led to protections of their continued employment if they refuse to dispense prescribed items promptly and courteously to all customers, instead of to enforcement of the state licensing requirements designed to protect the consumer and ensure that licensed pharmacists duly carry out the prescription orders of physicians.
The rest of us accept all of this extremism too politely, and we must stop now, We most call it what it is, and take a stand against it. It's bullshit and the media needs to describe it that way. What is happening to this country? Why are we like sheep in our quiet acceptance of the extreme right wing influence on our society and politics?

samcol

Obama excels at that. It's like he ignores issues that he should be talking about to the point that his base gets fed up and speaks for him. He gets it both ways.

Also, I agree that this isn't a left or right issue as the Republicans would do the same thing if it was Biden's daughter.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

jorgelito

Calm down hostie. Roachie is an affectionate term of endearment used out of genuine respect and amity for Roachboy. If you got a problem with it (and what don't you have a problem with, sheesh) don't use it.
-----Added 1/9/2008 at 10 : 56 : 41-----
Agreed, Obama showed some class her in my opinion. Even if it's just lip service, I feel it's a step in the right direction in civil political discourse.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

ottopilot

[/roachie jack]I too sometimes call roachboy "roachie". We often disagree on some political issues, but I absolutely respect roachboy. We've had some great exchanges on various other topics. Some call me "otto"... I like to think nicknames may help soften the intensity at times. We can argue but still remain friends. In this cyber environment, I consider roachie a friend or comrad (as he often says). It can happen that folk of a different opinion can remain civil if not friends.[/roachie jack]

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

host

....'kay....here's some of what we know...

The McCain campaign tells us Palin was fully vetted and there have been no surprises (to him about Palin and her family.....) in what has been disclosed since McCain announced she was his VP choice.

His campaign is saying then, that he knowingly selected a relatively inexperienced woman with fringe religiously motivated convictions that she integrates into her politics, a mother with a four months old, special needs infant, and a pregnant, 17 years old, high school student daughter, as his running mate, during what he and his fellow party members/elected high officials constantly remind us is...."a time of war".

His running mate, Palin, although she claimed to not reveal her own pregnancy until March 6, 2008, when she claimed she was 7 months pregnant and governor of Alaska, chose today to issue a public announcement that her daughter, Bristol, aged 17, is five months pregnant and plans to marry the man who impregnated her.

Aside from being prompted to do so, presumably because of a 3 day wave of "internet rumors", why is she releasing the details of her daughter's pregnant state, much earlier in the pregnancy than when she chose to make her own pregnancy public? She kept her own privacy, even as governor, much longer than she chose to keep her daughter's prenancy a private matter, and her daughter is a private person, a minor, and not a celebrity or an elected high official?

Pictures of Palin's daughter posted on Mehan McCain's blog:
Palin related that she flew to Texas to give a speech, and before delivering it, she felt contractions and was leaking amniotic fluid. Although she knew she was at an advanced age for giving birth, and knew she would be delivering a baby with Down's syndrome, knew he was also premature, at that point. She chose to stay and give the speech, and then to take a flight back home on Alaska airlines, with a stop over in Seattle, and spoke several times with her physician by phone, but did specifically not seek advice as to whether to make the at least seven hours long flight to Alaska, or inform anyone with the airline about her condition. She then rode 50 miles on Alaska roads before delivering her son on April 22.

We've been exposed to reports that daughter Bristol missed between the last five to as long as eight months of school, due to a long bout with mono..... Since the new school year is just starting, she was absent from school either from last January forward, or as long as from last October.

How has the long illness affected her announced pregnancy, and was it concurrent with a portion of the pregnancy. If she is 5 months pregnant now, she must have conceived within a few weeks of the time her mother announced her own pregnancy, on March 6.

Again,,,,if the McCain campaign is telling the truth, why did they choose Palin? Can I put all of my baggage, over here, John?

yellowmac

Wow, geez, with all this going on, I feel like McCain is having a genuine facepalm moment with his Palin choice and is wishing that he could have a mulligan.

First there's Palin's daughter. Next comes the reveal that Palin supported the 'bridge to nowhere' at first but then changed her mind. Sure, ok, I'll grant you that you're allowed to change your mind on stuff, but don't claim that you were against it all along during your "hey, i've just been selected as the VP nominee" speech. Then there's the revelation that this fringe Alaska separatist group apparently has ties to Palin.

And most disturbing of all is the controversy generated by her possibly illegal/un-ethical firing of her ex-brother-in-law.

I haven't made my decision on who to vote for president yet, but all of this is quite disturbing...

Willravel

McCain chose Palin because he thinks women are idiots and/or he likes beauty queens. Who was it that said "A woman supporting McCain is like a chicken supporting Colonial Sanders"?

scout

My lands the girl is only 17 and kids do make mistakes, that's what makes them kids. I have a sneaky suspicion that all of you taking advantage of this situation, mostly for lack of anything other faults to take advantage of, would be appalled if the the republicans was to use something of this sort to take advantage of or attack a democratic candidate. Typical far left wing bullshit and you wonder why you have lost the last two presidential elections and it's beginning to look like you might lose this one for the exact same reasons you lost the last two.

roachboy

thing is that there are real problems with palin's politics and track record.
she is about as far to the right as is imaginable in the context of evangelical protestants.
she has shown no particular competence.
she could be president in a heartbeat.
she is quite dangerous politically, a whole separate set of problems for the republicans, a walking talking demonstration of the illusory moderation of the party.

and there is a strange symmetry between the present flurry of lint over the situation with her daughter--which is only of the slightest interest because of palin's extreme right-wing evangelical viewpoint--and the convention scale-back.

personally, i think the republicans should be pleased about this: they have press. they knocked obama off the front page. this will pass, it is a problematic angle on palin. i smell a rove.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

I dunno know, McCain may have may a great move here. I spent some time last night dinking around reading right wing blogs and checking out Fox, Rush, Hannity et el. They all love her. They may not of vetted her much but they spent some serious time on the talking points memos. McCain needed someone to rally his base to get it back to a 49-49 race, she seems to be doing that in spades. On several forums i read comments where people were saying they weren't that thrilled with McCain now, with Palin in there, they're donating. Now the GOP just needs to keep pushing and donating to the anti-Obama 527's and they'll get a few percent of the swings. Then welcome President McCain.

On Morning Joe this morning he held up a copy of the NYT's. They have three negative stories on Palin on the front page this morning (maybe yesterday's?) Joe said this will rally the right wing base like nothing else. They hate the NYT's like the left hates Cheney. The NYT's running neg stories about GOP candidates is one the best fund raisers for that candidate.

The lie about the bridge to nowhere and keeping the money? I haven't heard it anywhere. I have heard the story of her returning the money repeated several times. Right out of the GOP play book, repeat a lie often enough and it will become fact. I'm hoping the Obama camp is waiting for the storms to pass and the GOP convention to end. I'm hoping they're doing a little rope-a-dope just to see how much more rope she'll give them before they hang her out to dry with her own comments and lies. I'm hoping- but I'm still thinking there's a good chance McCain could win this. The good news is even if he wins, even though he's been on Bush's side 90% of the time, I can't imagine him not being better at the job then Bush. Course I could be wrong and he could start telling leaders of foreign countries to go fuck themselves regularly and start bombing countries that pissed him off at any time.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Poppinjay

This all started because of internet rumors that Bristol (Bristol? Her other kids have equally white trash names) actually gave birth to the autistic baby.

Anybody with half a brain would know that's wrong. Conservative Christian Sarah Palin, who firmly believes every baby is planned by God, took very high risk fertility treatments, because, as a politician with a a very busy husband, she though four kids was NOT ENOUGH. At her age, many doctors would not even agree to treat her.

But Mrs. Will of God Palin decided to create an autistic baby with the use of heavy drugs. Drugs that also put her at high risk for cancer (see: Elizabeth Edwards).

This is the kind of woman we want to be an embolyism from the White House?

And now Bristol, a country song in the making, has been thrust onto the national stage by those dirty democrats.

No, wait. It wasn't the democrats. It was the GOP, giving statements on the floor that this was a GOOD thing, a celebration of life, an event that will make her "grow up", some actually gave examples of Jamie Lynn Spears as an example of handling teen preganancy.

What, the fuck?

Of course Bristol will never want for anything. They say she'll marry the babydaddy, who has said he does not want kids.

The GOP has put her out there. Palin was mum about her own pregnancy until she felt it couldn't hurt her, but willingly shouted her daughter's promiscuity when it rumors started that WOULD hurt her. She threw her daughter under the bus. What a bitch.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

ottopilot

I guess there's all kinds of trash. So what's your real name?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Poppinjay

It's Track Trig Willow Piper McBristol.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

PonyPotato

I believe the child has Down's Syndrome, not autism.

And I happen to like the name Bristol.. perhaps not Trig, Track, Willow, or Piper. They don't seem like "white trash" names to me.. maybe "hippie" names, but not white trash.

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

abaya

Reality check, please.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

StanT

Taken from James Kunstler's page James Howard Kunstler

So many stereotypes in a single picture.

Tully Mars

Photo shopped?

Also almost looks like a pellet gun.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

ottopilot

yup... pellet gun

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Poppinjay

I doubt she would have a permanent and glasses while out by the pond.

I think that's an obvious fakery. There's no trailer in the pic.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Tully Mars

My screens kind of small, I figured it was either a pellet gun or some low end .22.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Willravel

Rusty "Snapdragon" McFisticuffs.

Still, it's better than my name, Rainbow Tide Moonbeam Abercrombie (possibly some day Mayor Dr. Rainbow Tide Moonbeam Abercrombie, esq.).

/threadjack

Getting back, I think that her nomination is a slap in the face to women voters. If she's supposed to be a draw on ex-Hillary supporters, then they're expecting women will ignore all of Hillary Clinton's politics and simply vote for a candidate because she has a fallopian tube, which is insane. Palin really is the anti-Hillary from a policy perspective: Palin is anti-abortion/contraception, pro-war, pro-useless drilling of ANWR, anti-climate change, and a slough of other things. She's even teaming up with Captain Cunt (referencing McCain's terrible treatment of women, including his wife, in the past). I can understand deeply conservative evangelical women voting for Palin, but I don't think the conservative evangelical woman vote was ever Hillary Clinton's base.

ottopilot

Oh... you're that kind of trash.

Most of family names include uncle dad, aunt mommy, cousin big brother uncle grandpa, little-sister-Mrs. Ottopilot.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

aceventura3

A parent has a right to know if their minor daughter is having an abortion or any other medical or surgical procedure. A parent is legally obligated for the care and welfare of minor children. A parent of a minor child is required for a child to enter into any legally binding agreement.

If you want the legal system to fundamentally change the legal relationship between a parent and a minor child then the state Supreme court may create legal justification for their decision otherwise they don't have good justification. We know that court decision's are not always correct or the final word.

I am not interested in debating these points, I just wanted your question to be answered.
-----Added 2/9/2008 at 02 : 00 : 53-----
The vicious attacks from the left are disturbing. I know there are some right websites that have viciously attacked Obama, but I never saw that get onto on TFP. A sad few days here.

Perhaps a focus on the issues will resume soon.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

This would be a point of contention between many conservative and liberals. The other side of this argument is that many parents may put undue pressure on their daughter not to have the abortion, thus removing her right to regulate her own body. While the girl would still be a minor, this is still a deeply personal decision. I wish there was something I could compare it to in order to illustrate the severity of parental interference, but this is a singular situation.

But you're right, this is a good conversation for elsewhere.

Poppinjay

I thought I was pretty obvious that was a joke. I forgot to stick this on there:

I think most people know the Palins live the life of luxury and will easily beable to support Bristol, and Trig through his difficulties.

Unlike many other Alaskan residents who face the same fate. i guess they should all serve on the BP board.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

aceventura3

Is your new standard based on what boards a person has served on? Is that the new game you want to play?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Poppinjay

No, my same old standard is the governors should govern as if they had lived the life of their region's least advantaged. Don't be all for these porgrams when you don't know real costs yourself.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet