Ustwo

Its rather hard to imagine something like the feeling you get when they first learn to walk, first time they say 'Daddy' (and mean it).

Anyone who knows me, knows that I will beat you down for any opinion based on emotionalism. If someone lets there emotions get into a political or environmental debate I'll make them hate me by tearing apart their illogical argument and rubbing their noses in it. In some topics, mostly those topics where the lives of millions of people are effected, emotionalism has no part.

The idea of having children is the one topic where logic has very little place. It IS all about emotions. Love isn't based on logic and having a child is about love. It is something you are NOT capable of understanding until you have one. I could rationalize having a child before I had one, but I couldn't understand it. I thought I understood, but I was wrong. I recall a friend of mine who was out of town for business saying he couldn't wait to get back to see his wife and child and it struck me as a bit odd. His kid was pretty young, he was only gone a few days, I would think he was glad to be free of his kid for a few days. Now I understand that feeling. Hell I'm going out of town for a week soon and I already know I'm going to miss my son.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ngdawg

I can probably say unequivocably that no one here worked harder or went through more crap to have a child. Towit: 10 years of fertility treatments, 3 surgeries, including exploratory, one that had to reconstruct my lower abdominal organs and the final one, which, as a procedure called GIFT, produced the twins(out of 15 eggs and 5 implanted). We were in contact with two separate adoption agencies, one in Manhattan that finally turned us down as it was during the '88 Olympics in Seoul and Korea suspended all out-of-country adoptions during that time. The second agency kept us on, even after the GIFT because, as they so eloquently put it, we may still want more children and there are so many waiting in so many countries. Which brings me to this:
I understand the 'gut-pulling' instinct to want to experience the entire process. What I did not expect, and I don't think anyone really does until it happens to them, are the dangers, the mishaps, the absolute terror that comes over you. I almost lost my son twice, I was on total bedrest the entire second trimester and again half the last. Wanting to be pregnant is truly selfish and anyone who says it isn't is lying. It's not really a bad selfish, but selfish nevertheless. Adoption solves many of the issues you face in this decision. You become a parent; you WILL get a baby, albeit possibly 4-6 months old, but a baby. It will be healthy, unless you specify otherwise. It will be part of a loving home, made more so because it is TRULY wanted. Adoption doesn't add to population woes, it's a tiny salvation from them. As the aunt to two adopted boys and having friends who have adopted from Korea and Colombia, I can honestly tell you, they ARE parents in every sense of the word and moreso because they fought and desired so hard to make that dream a reality. And you can even nurse your adopted baby! Takes some dedicated work, but it can be done.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Bill O'Rights

Is the long winded way of saying...

If you two had one child, and one child only...then wouldn't that decrease the Lurkbastid population by a full 50% when your time was up?
Look...in the end, Charlatan was absolutely correct when he said that "everything that everyone has said here is bunk (as far as you should be concerned). In the end there are no pros and cons. In the end, all of these arguments fall away and you are left you and Ratbastid".
One thing that I will add...if you two do decide to have a child...given his parentage...that kid is destined for greatness. At the very least...that's gonna be one lucky kid...the cards are already stacked in his/her favor.


Yeah!! Ain't that some scary assed shit?!? I hate when that happens. I'll frequently look outside to make sure that the sky is still blue.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Sultana

Oh, I know, I know. But it doesn't hurt to try, right? What other kind of advice can a childless woman offer, anyways? Suggest to help out with other people's kids? Even I know that doesn't offer a clear view of a parent's life, but it's not a bad attempt to comprehend the non-comprehendable before one's irrevocably commited long-term, eh?

By the way, I am really enjoying reading people's input here, particularly the fathers. I can't even imagine what it would ever have been like to have a loving father, so it's cool to know they truely do exist, and to have an inside view of their minds. It's like talking to a unicorn, heh.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

JustJess

On the overpopulation thing: It is mine (and my family's) firm belief that it just makes sense to reproduce twice. Then your effect is net zero, you are replacing yourselves and yourselves only. Mom didn't mean to have me too!

You and the RB will have to figure this part out yourselves. But if you'd like a reality check, take some nephews or something for a week - one whole week - and see what it's like. That still won't be a real feeling, because real parents do it gradually and the kids will be on overdrive from excitement, but it'll be a hint of that other reality.

Other than that? I can't tell you. I'm still deciding for myself! Mostly, I find I want to someday... because I want to teach and grow and share with a little sponge. Besides, what I really want to do is direct! (Meaning, I have so many ideas on how to raise a kid... I ought to just do it myself and stop mentally chastising my friends and relatives. )

And don't decide this summer. Maybe next summer. :*

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Ustwo

You are scared not because you agree with me on this issue but because you fear I may be right on all the other issues as well.

Verily you will come to my way of thinking, counteraction is ineffectual.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

analog

See I wrote words in complete sentences so that people could read and understand them, not skim and surmise their own version. I was using them as examples of having temporary urges, which I talked on with great detail and you managed to completely ignore anyway, and to not give in immediately to an urge that directly contradicts long-standing personal choices.

I also, thanks again for skimming and not actually reading, didn't say people gave nothing but bullshit arguments. I said the argument of "you don't know the joy" is an emotional argument, and therefore total nonsense. You cannot make a valid argument based on an emotional opinion. Period. THAT is what I said, quite clearly.

Yeah, actually, it is. People make pro/con lists all the time for having a child. I think it's very important and smart for people to have realistic conversations that detail the issues they may face as parents. Are you suggesting no one should ever consider the negatives of having a child? The decision to have a child is hardly a decision that should be made hastily or without consideration.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me. You talk down to childfree couples like they're ignorant and pathetic? I feel sorry for you that having children has permanently fucked up your mental processes into thinking you're better than everyone because you've managed to pull off the banal, uneventful, and completely mindless task of procreation. Congratulations on accomplishing what people in caves and all mammals in existence for all time figured out how to do without any brainpower whatsoever. Yeah. Wow. That's special. How unique. Thumbs up. Gold star. Maybe I should hand out trophies because you eventually figured out which hole it goes in.

So now the conscious decision to not have kids makes us cowards? Is this another one of those emotional opinions that counts as a valid argument again? Because I need to keep tabs on which emotional opinions used as arguments by parents slip by the universal rule of "emotional opinions don't make valid arguments".

And yet somehow having a child suddenly doesn't apply to this.

Parents actively disregard the fact that their opinions are based, built, and structured on emotions. Look at the argument here. You'll destroy an argument based on emotions- but oh no! Here comes an argument about children based on emotions. Oh, that's ok. Because it's about children. Forget that nonsense. There are a million and nine issues for which a person would have nothing but emotionaly-based opinions. The issue of "children" doesn't get a free pass from the same judgment just because they're fucking children.

filtherton

Methinks ustwo struck a nerve.

Mondak

For what it is worth Analog, I wondered the same thing about ustwo's argument. When it comes down to it, I suspect it would be best to simply discard what he said since there is really nothing there. I mean:

1. There are people in this world (who are not on "Cops", stupid, cowards, pathetic, etc.) who should not have children.

2. Making the argument based on something like "You just have to trust me, it is the greatest thing ever, but you could never understand the evidence for it unless you are already a part of it" does not leave a lot of room for people in group #1 to make a healthy decision.

I named my kid "Wyatt" for this very reason. His name is a contraction of my favorite question which is "Why is that?". I figure that if I don't do a perfect job raising him, but the one thing he knows is never to trust people on blind faith (ustwo's argument is a great example) and instead to gather his own measurable evidence, the kid will be just fine.

As I said in my first post, I find most of the time people who are following something on blind faith (e.g. having kids is right, therefore I no longer need to question and also I never needed to question) react badly to those who are questioning whether this is the right thing for them or not. They take it as an indictment of their own decision rather than allowing it to be simply for those who are trying to make the choice.

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

cj2112

I don't think I could say anything here that would define my opinion and my experience in regards to parenthood, better than what i said here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=102295

lurkette

Be brutally honest - does anyone here think that having children was a mistake? Do you know people who have had kids and wish they hadn't?

On the flip side, do you know people who have chosen not to have kids who regret it? Not like "wish I'd gone to Fiji instead of Cancun" sort of regret, but deep "my soul will never be complete now" regret?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Ustwo

Please don't try to lecture me on reading comprehension after you post this, obviously you did a bit of skimming there youself. I did no such thing, I said people who subsitute pets for children are sad and its pathetic. If you haven't seen it then you will some day.

Sorry you are mad at me, but you dont' have a clue about children. From what I recall you are in your 20's, still in school, without a serioius relationship yet you are here to give advice on having children? What makes you think you are in any way qualified to even begin to give advice to a married couple wondering if children are right for them? You have been very 'anti' child in several posts in the past, I have to wonder why.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ARTelevision

lurkette, yes

__________________
create evolution

cj2112

my ex-wife...see the link in my previous post in this thread for the explanation.

Ustwo

While I know several people who regret their marriage I don't know any that regret their children, at least not openly.

As for the childless couples we know, after a couple has been married for several years without children, its a topic no one ever brings up first. I've never heard anyone voice regret but these couples at at their oldest in their early 40's.

I know I'm not qualifed to answer either of these questions as I don't regret my child and we are planning on when to have our second, but you know what works for other people only counts for them. I'm sure you can find a couple that regrets having children and I'm sure you can find a couple suffering from great regret over not having any.

For our lifestyle I want to have only two kids, but there are times I would like to have 12. We are big enough hedonists that I'm sure we will stop at two, but even then I fear we may regret it later.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ubertuber

Lurkette, I've had a recurring thought in my life... My parents had me first, and pretty much got what people think they're going to get. A healthy, relatively intelligent child who grows up well and does more good than harm (at least so far). So then they had my little sister, probably banking that number 2 would be like number 1.

She's had nothing but health problems, starting with a birth defect, continuing with cancer in infancy, more with complications including learning disabilities, hearing impairments and emotional development issues. Today they find themselves parenting a 22 year old who lives at home and produces all of the strains and stresses that a 14 year old would. And there's no real end in sight to this.

I truly believe that my parents love my sister and are glad she was born... But I think that you have to at least consider that you may be getting into something that you're not imagining. How many people actually think that they'll end up with a perpetual adolescent in their homes - even until they are trying to retire?

*edit* Ustwo is making lots of good sense to me. Thanks for posting.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

ngdawg

I have some good friends, my age, who are childless by circumstance, not choice and have simply accepted their fate and moved on. They have a fantastic relationship, do well-can afford vacations, food, etc. I don't know if they lament not trying harder, though. They have never let on about it.
I don't know of anyone who regretted having their kids, although I'm pretty sure my sister-in-law should never have had kids (she has two boys); she's just not Mom material, although she loves her kids to death, she can be very cruel and biting toward them if they piss her off and would smack them on the head many times-something that just made my skin crawl. The boys are one year and 3 weeks apart, which hints at how much thinking she's done.
My ridiculous(to some) quest to have kids was that 'my soul will never be complete' feeling. I didn't follow protocols set in place by the fertility clinic; they said 7 treatments, I'd be back for the 8th, 9th, 10th. And I think that's the crux of the pursuit.
Like Charlatan said, everything here as reasons for and against is bunk. We base our suggestions on how we are responding to our own lifestyles. Ultimately, it must be your true desire that answers all your questions, whatever that desire is.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Cynthetiq

Then what's my reason?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

I don't know, I didn't claim to have great mindreading powers. Not all childless couples replace a child with a pet they treat like a child, but I feel sorry for those that do, they are obviously missing something in their lives.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ngdawg

Perhaps that you and your spouse did make the conscious decision together(and not as 20 year-olds still making their way early on) , for whatever reason instead of simply dismissing any who decide otherwise as merely being emotional? Just a guess....
Which brings me to this pondering: Why is the decision to not have kids logical but the decision TO have them called emotional? I could take a few guesses, but I think it all boils down to where our own selfishnesses(new word) lie.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

analog

Pathetic, sad, and basically calling the person stupid for not seeing what they're doing. Yeah, you did look down on this childfree couple and pass judgment, and you did call them pathetic and sad. I didn't say you called ALL childfree couples pathetic and sad, now did I? But I'd bet a shiny silver dollar that they are hardly the only couple on whom you've made that judgment, so don't cry at me like you made an innocent comment and are being berated for no reason.

I'm not mad, I'm just really disappointed.

25. Not still in school, back in school. I decided to pursue a life of medicine, starting with saving lives as a Paramedic. I've had a few serious relationships, and those women didn't want kids any more than I did. And no, i'm not at all giving advice on having children- I'm not sure where you got that impression. I'm giving advice on NOT having children.

I'm giving advice from the perspective of a person who is happily child-free. I try and help as best I can, though I don't have the luxury of being able to justify condescending to anyone I feel like, simply because one of my sperm once fertilized an egg- a thoroughly pedestrian feat. I just have to deal with the platitudinous remarks, dubiously offered up as actual arguments, of haughty breeders.

Lurkette can make up her mind as to how my opinions weigh in her mind. My qualifications are simply that I don't want children, and that is one side of her dilemna, just like your qualifications in this matter are that you're a breeder, her other consideration. So far, the only argument FOR CHILDREN has been that all us childfree people are too stupid and unenlightened to see it your way. Well, arguments don't work that way. That's just an opinion. Either way, opinions do not require qualifications. Just like posting in threads doesn't necessarily require a person to have a point...

And you've been very 'pro' child in your posts in the past, where's your fucking point? You've given me no reason to believe you have a point, but I have to assume maybe there is one anyway, though I can't see it.

ngdawg

One of the points, if I may steal Ustwo's mike as he gets a cold glass of whatever....is that someone not 'settled down' with that one special SO, etc., may not be considered the best authority on the decision to not 'breed'. Hell, I know I certainly wanted nothing to do with kids as a single, although I had assumed at some point I'd probably be a single mom, not a married one. And I still don't like kids I don't know. Hearing a whining kid at work or in public anywhere makes me cringe, no matter what their age.
I don't really care for babies much either(don't ask me if it's cute, please) and seeing adults get gushy and hearing their voices go up 3 octaves while they try to get a kid's attention makes me want to gag. (I never did that with my kids-it's assinine to me). The only time I even pay attention at all is if I see twins. And don't even get me started on kids allowed to run rampant as mommy or daddy say sweetly, "honey, could we not do that, please?" BLEH!
Being a parent is ALL emotion. It's love, it's stress, it's all-consuming. Some really suck at it. Some don't.
As for the pet substitution, I have friends that do that and it's really embarrassing to watch them babytalk to their dogs or cats, insist on treating them like children and then adding the insult of comparing those animals to my kids. I know you love'em, folks, I loved my dog too, but they're PETS.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Mondak

Nope. Two wrongs don't make a right. The thing is that creating a life and being responsible for it is a decision that you should take seriously. Either way, a real hard look at one's emotional health as well as ability to give yourself to your child without resentment or expectation of "thanks" should really happen. Chasey and I like to think that we came to the conclusion to our decision to have a child logically. It is funny to us to watch people's reactions when they find out we are only having one. Same sort of idea here.

People work themselves into a healthy lather when they find out that you don't want to have a kid or want to have a different amount of children than they decided (or "decided") to have. When they can't give reasons that make sense, sometimes they react by striking out at those who may have spent some time thinking about it instead of looking into themselves for the root of their contradictions.

I think it was John Galt who said, "there is no such thing as a contradiction, only a problem with your premises".

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

filtherton

I didn't want to have a kid at the time, wasn't planning on having a kid at the time, was not set up financially to support a kid in the long run. I have a kid. I love the shit out of her and i love the shit out of having a kid. If all goes according to plan i will be set up financially in the near future. Being a parent isn't the easiest thing in the world and certainly requires a complete overhaul of the way one lives one's life, but i do believe that it's a worthwhile thing to do. There are many things that are intangibly great about having a kid that can't be described, only experienced. There are many things that can really suck about having a kid. As far as i'm concerned the positives far outweigh the negatives. For me.

I don't know you guys well enough to tell you whether you should have a kid or not. I just know that it can be pretty fucking amazing.

ngdawg

Ah, but why was that choice made? Whether someone decides to have 0,1 or 6, it is a selfish decision. No one can say without a doubt that their decision is ONLY for the good of the world or for mankind, or anything else. No one can say without a doubt that ONLY the child they have is going to do great things.
To go another way, same result though: I wanted more kids. Why? There was no reason on earth to have any. Spouse said no way. So, we have the two. The 'reasons' not to have more certainly were logical: expense, no room in the house, the toll it'd take on me physically and the age I'd be.
Being illogical in a decision to have one would be, inarguably, no home, no income, no support, etc. But logical reasons to have any don't exist. Logical timing does.
You knew the time was right, you knew you wanted this or maybe some other reason. But in the great scheme of things, we bring children into this world for a myriad of reasons, some totally illogical and a few downright ridiculous, but the final reason is the desire to do so at a time in our lives that is right. For us.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Mondak

...that assumes that we view being selfish as bad. Let me tell you now, we had the kid for selfish reasons. We had the kid to enrich OUR lives. We didn't do it for the world or directly, even for him. It just so happens that we are rather comfortable in the concept of being selfish and doing things for ourselves. That does not mean being selfish has to hurt others in the process either.

So the "why" question that makes the most sense to me is: will YOUR life be better after kid(s)?

My previous advice was to go through everything that the choice will affect (which is pretty much everything there is...) and see where that puts you. Sometimes kids can put some distance between a couple temporarily as your emotional focus has to shift. Can everyone handle that? What activities do you like? If the answer is that your favorite thing to do is watch Barney on TV, then that might be a check in the right direction.

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

lurkette

Is it possible to get away with being a parent and not watching Barney? Pleeeeease?

I have grand visions of being one of those granola crunchy parents taking their kid to the park and the museum and outdoor concerts and reading Baby Shakespeare and stuff, and not having to listen to insipid kid's music and watch Bob the Builder or Dora the Explorer. Is it possible to get away with that, or do you have a kid and you'll do anything to entertain them, even if it means caving to mass culture? Having worked with developmental scientists, I know that a normal environment with pots and pans and some bright colors will pretty much do the trick, developmentally. But culturally, is it hard (impossible) to be a parent and avoid all the kiddietainment?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Bill O'Rights

YES!! ABSOLUTELY! I have yet to watch, or allow my offspring to watch, a single episode of the purple abomination. I have however resigned myself to Bob the Builder, The Wiggles, Thomas the Tankengine, etc etc. Draw your own limits. Hell...no TV at all is an option. Not a fun one...but an option, nonetheless.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

snowy

As a former full-time nanny...I second this. I never once subjected the children in my care (or myself for that matter) to Barney. However, I did enjoy Thomas the Tank Engine, Theodore Tugboat, and Jay-Jay the Jet Plane. Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers are also classic favorites, and personally, that's about all I watched growing up.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Ustwo

So you had a kid because all the affects were good and you liked watching Barney?

By that logic no one should have kids ever.

There are almost NO logical reasons for having kids. Unless you think in terms of species and genetics there is no 'reason' for children that has a direct logical tie.

I don't like changing diapers, I don't like being stuck home on a Friday night, I don't like the watching 'The Wiggles', I don't like spending money on tiny clothes, I don't like picking food off the floor, I don't like little hands trying to hit my keyboard while I type, I don't like being woken up at night because of a bad dream, and I don't like waiting for the kid to fall asleep to get laid.

Oddly its all worth it, and doesn't seem to be much of a bother.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

lurkette

I also wanted to weigh in on the analog/Ustwo debate...

First...analog, hon, take a deep breath and quit taking everything so personally. I asked for advice and opinions and that's what Ustwo is providing. I see people treat their dogs like kids and it drives me nuts, too! And I do feel sorry for them, and condescending toward them, and I'm not even a breeder! It's not that they chose not to have children that makes them pathetic, it's that they chose to sublimate what's obviously a nurturing, child-having urge and are taking it out on some poor canine. That doesn't strike me as particularly healthy, nor fulfilling human potential. Having been on your side of the fence for most of my adut life, I know how often the "childfree" are subjected to criticism, ridicule, condescension, and that patronizing "you'll change your mind" crap. So I know it's easy to be very sensitive and see that everywhere, and go off on it. But I find that it's a lot easier to just let it roll off your back and instead of digging in your toes and pushing back, just "tai chi" the comments and say, "y'know what, you could be right! I might change my mind. But right now, this is where I am. And I'm comfy here." And right now where I am is comfortably uncertain. I'm exploring, and trying to see all the sides of things, and that includes the possibility that if I think for too long and think myself out of having kids, I might very well regret it. But I can regret it and still have a full and wonderful life. The whole "logic/emotion" debate is a red herring for the real issue, which is that there is no one right choice, and everyone makes up their own minds based on completely idiosyncratic and uniquely idiotic/selfish/emotional/logical/mysterious reasons. I think Ustwo's just saying "yes, having kids is great, and you can't know how great till you do it. Don't be one of those people who wants it, and thinks themselves out of having it, and then goes batshit buying doggie sweaters to make up for it." He's entitled to think we should do this, and you're entitled to think we should not. I don't feel condescended to, and in the event that we choose not to have kids, Ustwo will probably think we've made a mistake. And he might be right. But it'll be OUR mistake, and our lives to make the best of with what we have. In the end, unfortunately, all of your (y'all's) reasons are just grist for the mill and we'll have to make up our minds ourselves. I wish I had a great big magic 8 ball that would tell me what to do

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Ustwo

While my child will NEVER watch Barney, and we avoided all TV for the first year, you very quickly realize who childrens programing is for, and its the parents. Imagine a little dynamo of limitless energy who is able to do all sorts of fun things like try to turn on the stove burners, climb stairs, empty the pots and pans drawers, which all are as fun as any toy. Now imagine if you wanted to concentrate on some other task besides watching this dynamo without wondering if the house will explode or you will need to make a trip to the emergency room. The Wiggles on DVD helps out a lot here.

I don't think they are 'bad' in any way, he learns a lot while watching, and its only a small portion of the day for him, but when you need that break its really nice to have.

'fruit salad, yummy yummy, fruit salad, yummy yummy.'

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Bill O'Rights

Here you go.
"Reply is hazy. Try again".

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

pig

I don't think I have any good advice on how the two of you should decide whether or not to have children. It sounds to me like you're already taking a sound approach, and I certainly think that you can't repress these feelings; much better to acknowledge them. Just remember you can't really make a wrong decision in this circumstance; regardless of which way y'all decide to go, you can choose to regret not taking the other path, or you can choose to embrace the one you're on. It does sound to me like there's a lot going on right now that might reasonably be acerbating the situation; biological clock and similar psychological factors, close friends having children, and so forth. I think the best thing you can do is what you're already doing; be aware of it, take time and let it marinate, and let the decision come to you.

As for a logical reason to have children, which is not specifically tied to a consider of genetics and preservation of an appropriately stocked gene pool; some have argued that giving birth is one of the primary ways in which humans can achieve a state of quasi-immortality. Make of it what you will, but I think its an interesting concept.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

highthief

*gets ready to get yelled at for insensitivity*

May I ask what you are in therapy for? I mean, if it for something serious, and you need time to get your head right, then making a decision about having kids should probably be delayed, regardless of any tic-toc sounds or whatever anyone here thinks.

Also, I agree with ustwo - if you don't have kids, you can't know what it is like. Neither a pet, nor a baby brother, nor working in childcare, nothing compares.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Mondak

That was a truely professional way to interpret that. The nations news organizations would be proud of the way you completly ignored the point of what was being said and choose to use something totally out of context.

Thanks for helping me find a person whose opinions I should ignore.

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All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

SecretMethod70

Alright everyone, I think we can all agree that most people tend to have strong opinions on the subject of having kids. Let's not let those opinions affect the way we act and react in this discussion. It doesn't do anything to help lurkette in her search for thoughts on the matter.

/mod

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Ustwo

Allow me to go by this point by point.

Meaningless statement every decision you make in life is selfish. We make our choices in what gives us the most pleasure or the least pain. A saint is a saint because that is what makes them the most happy, likewise so dose the villain. As such there is nothing to see here.

Meaningless as it will be impossible to answer until you have done it. You can not 'imagine' being a parent and have the same feelings you have as one. This has been described by many in this thread. To use my first example its like explaining what an orgasm feels like to a virgin.

Which is where my post comes in. Going through a list of tangibles to decide the value of an intangible is fruitless. Unless you understand what having a child is really like, you can't put up a balance sheet.

And as you can see here my post was an obvious rebuttal of this. If you were trying to be sarcastic with the Barney line, you need to know that sarcasm doesn't work in text form. If you were serious then you musta liked Barney to have a kid based on your logic. As I rather doubt you like Barney, and yet you had a child, I'd have to ask why you even bothered putting something so ridiculous in your post.

So in conclusion, I don't care all that much what you think of me here. I'm concerned for Lurkette who I feel something of a bond with due to our past conversations. She seems to understand my posts, and thats what is important to me here here, not your opinion.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

la petite moi

I would say don't do it, since you were 99% sure you didn't want kids up until just recently. It could just be the hormones of the IUD speaking.

Redlemon

My 2 cents: get a TiVo. You can select what is available to your child. I'm a huge fan of "Peep in the Big Wide World". You didn't mention music: check out this Salon article about "Kindie Rock".

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.