lurkette

So until about 2 weeks ago, ratbastid and I were 99% sure we didn't want kids. So sure that I got an IUD in January. I'm 33, and the IUD lasts 5 years...by the time it's done, I'll pretty much be too old to have kids.

About 2 weeks ago, I was in a meeting watching a presentation on the effects of prenatal experience on the development of the immune system, and there were all these pictures of pregnant women, or mothers breastfeeding, and god help me if I didn't feel the pull! Strongly! It really weirded me out. Since then I've had two very vivid dreams in which I find myself pregnant despite the IUD and rip it out myself. My therapist says I should indulge myself in the fantasy of having a kid for a while, and see if it's just a passing biological urge, or if it's really something I want. So I'm indulging....and I find myself slipping into the "let's do it!" mindset.

ratbastid, meantime, is still pretty certain he doesn't want this. He can see how it could be pretty sweet, but really we like our lives the way they are. He's not so sure about the whole "indulge the fantasy" exercise (in fact, he pretty much HATES and fears the exercise), but would do this if I really wanted it. He thinks I shouldn't be a slave to my biological urges (and I agree) but should weigh all the options and then...choose.

So I posted in my journal
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/journal...wjournal&j=185
some of my thoughts about things - good and bad reasons to have/not have a kid.

A few points that need to be elaborated:
1. Neither of us has a full-time job at the moment. ratbastid owns his own company, and I work a mish-mash of part-time and freelance jobs. We pay the bills and are digging out rapidly from under our credit cards, but our incomes are far from predictable. We would both be willing to get regular jobs, even if we didn't have a kid to support, if our financial situation merited it.

2. I am most likely a carrier for an X-linked recessive disorder called hypohidrotic ectodermal dysplasia. http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/nord804.asp My brother had it, and there's a 50-50 chance I'm a carrier. However, I manifest many of the secondary symptoms (baby teeth, sparse hair, dry skin, sensitive lungs, etc.) and I'm pretty sure I'm a carrier. There's a test for the mutation, but a small percentage of affected people have a different mutation, and according to the test my affected cousin had, we're among that small percentage, so there's no telling for sure. Our options for biological and not adopted parenthood would be:
1. pray
2. sex-selection for females (who could be carriers but wouldn't have the disease) and IVF, which I'm not really willing to do
3. selective abortion of affected male fetuses which I'm DEFINITELY not willing to do

So... we'd have to cross that genetics bridge if we decided to have a kid, and I don't know what to do about it. The issue isn't really the testing - I'm sure I'm a carrier; the issue is what to do about it! We've got a 1-in-4 chance of having a son who's affected, and I'm not sure I'm up to the medical challenges involved, or that I'd want to knowingly take the chance that we could pass this on to our kid - it seems unethical.

I guess my biggest fear is regret. I don't want to reach a certain age and wish I had had kids, or deal with being an old parent. I also don't want to wish I'd NOT had kids and resent him/her (I'd only want 1, I think) for ruining my life!

So...parents and especially NON-parents, we'd love to have your advice and input, preferably on how we should make up our minds than on whether we should or shouldn't do it. So: help the lurkbastids make up their minds!

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aberkok

Needless to mention (so I will), that you ought to think about adoption. This would buy you more time for the "old parent" deadline. Also, adopting a non-infant could shorten the time you needed to dedicate your life to raising a child (down from probably about 20 years).

Otherwise I am indifferrent either way, except that it might be fun to watch Ratbastid lose his hair over this.

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maleficent

Children only 'ruin' your life if that's what you believe, if you beleive that they enhance your life, then that's what they do.

Children are a huge amount of responsibility and will change your life and your lifestyle, for the better or for the worse is entirely up to you.
Children are what you make them... and what you raise them to be.

I think most every woman hears their biological clock ticking at some point, the older we get the louder it sometimes ticks... you can snooze it if you want... but you dont want to snooze so often that you've missed your chance.

Only you can answer the question whether or not you want children, or are ready for children... But it's gotta be a decision that's made together.. your journal entry lists a bunch of reasons for and against... and that's fine, but it's a lot of thinking and overthinking... what if's will drive you crazy... don't be afraid of what tomorrow might bring - be like Scarlett - think about tomorrow - tomorrow...

you have to ask yourself... Are you ready to be a mother and father? And do you really want to be a mother and father?

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lurkette

For the moment, I'd like to take adoption off the table. It's certainly an option, but not our first choice. (I just spent the past 7 years working on a study of children raised in orphanages and have heard far too many horror stories about the effects of early experience on later development...having kids is a crap shoot whatever way you slice it, but the dice are loaded against you with adoption.)

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

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Bill O'Rights

Truthfully...I don't know that anyone is ever really ready to be a parent. But, as far as wanting to be a parent...yeah, that's key. This isn't like deciding that you might like to be an SUV owner. This is, for all intents and purposes...permanent. If you don't like the fuel economy, color, performance or if you really wanted a "stick shift"...you can't trade it in. It's still yours. Always. I know I state the blatantly obvious, but there it is.
Y'know...from experience, I'll tell you...there's nothing so euphoric as the pedestal that a child places it's parent upon. Likewise...there's no hurt worse than when that pedestal colapses around 10 years after it was first erected. Such has been parenthood, I suppose, since the Neolithic.
It's a big decision. One that I know that the two of you will make with the utmost responsibility. I can't imagine a more intelligent, and better looking, offspring than a Lurkbastid baby. Well, save my own first and second ammendments, of course.

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maleficent

by ready i mean -
are you ready to sacrafice certain things in order to have a child,
to put the needs of someone else ahead of your own for a while
to be totally responsible for the care and well being of another life.

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Cynthetiq

I like that first paragraph. It will be what you decide it will be.

At this point in time, I'm a firm believer in Babies Kill Dreams. Why? Because right now I have certain goals that if a baby were to come around, it would seriously deter me from achieving those goals and dreams.

I don't think that anyone is every ready to be a parent. They think they are ready, but challenges arise that one never realized or planned.

Really, it's more a choice of willing to take the challenge of being a parent, whatever may happen in that challenge.

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The_Jazz

I'll second (or third, I'm not really keeping count) the notion that no one is really ever "ready" for a child, especially the first. My wife and I thought that we were ready for our son to arrive, and 4 months later we laugh at the notion.

We spent a long time talking about kids both when we were dating and after we got married. I came into the relationship against the idea given my trials and tribulations with my brother over the last 15 years. After spending time with her neices and nephews, I warmed to the idea, and I'm pretty happy that I did, especially since our son is now getting to be lots of fun.

I do want to say that Ratbastid needs to be 100% on board for this decision. You (lurkette) could do this all by yourself, but that's not really what this is about.

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amonkie

A couple questions for you ...

- WHAT exactly was the sense of tugging? Was it to the birth experience - the carrying/nurturing someone for 9 months, having a bond with someone, etc? Was it the chance of ownership and pride "That's MY kid", ... what?

- What would it take for Ratbastid to be 150% on board? A marriage is between you and Ratbastid, and even with your kids, your marriage needs to be first in order for you two to provide a healthy family environment to your kids. If your marriage would suffer in the presence of kids because there's serious doubt, that should be a HUGE warning sign.

- How long has the urge lasted? You've spent the better part of a decade from what I can see affirming your choice to NOT procreate ... and it is changed on a whim? While I'm not saying that it isn't possible... just be sure that it's not hormone or emotional related .. if the urge lasts 3-4 months, then in my opinion it would be one to pay serious attention to.

- Are you willing to take care of the baby that falls into that 1-4 chance? If you are not ... pull out. NOW. While technology is advancing greatly.... we still cannot control nature in everything. Because of your brother, I know you have a grasp of what type of life and medical issues may result ... would you still feel the urge to be a parent even if your child was not "normal" by today's standards?

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Willravel

I want to be clear on this so I will chose my words carefully: Lurkette and Ratbastid are the kinds of people who should raise a child just so the world can be a better place because of him or her. I've seen so many people who had no business being a parent have kids. You guys would make absolutely great parents. While HED is very serious, people with HED can live very wonderful and happy lives. I was born with a severe heart disorder, but I love life.

lurkette

The tugging started as the biological "my body wants to be pregnant" thing, and evolved into a "wanting to nurture and share a new life" thing. Just to be damn sure it's not solely biological, we're not making any decisions about this for at least several months. Meantime, the IUD stays firmly in place and does its job.

See above - it hasn't been long, and I'm interested to see if it lasts. If not...problem solved, I guess!

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raeanna74

Hubby and I originally wanted 2 children. After we had one we decided we did not want any more. We THOROUGHLY enjoy the one that we have. I can see that we would stress more than enjoy a second one.

Any goal can still be met even with kids in the picture. Even for a mother. The joy of nuturing an infant is something that no one can completely comprehend until they have their own.

Adoption is not a complete waste. Hubby and his sister (I realize this was years ago but still) were both given up for adoption at birth and he actually went home with his adoptive parents from the hospital. I can happen and in that case you do not have all those same problems.

With the disease/condition that you carry. I do not understand it completely. It actually sounds like my family to a great degree but we were told we simply had immune problems, asthma and anadontia. My brother has nearly no adult teeth and my Dad has developed a Lupus type of immune disorder. Both of my parents were carriers and though it's given us a few hiccups it's not been bad. The condition sounds like there can be many varying degrees of affliction. What is the likelyhood that it would be extremely life altering for a child? How often does it get bad enough to be a big problem? I think that is the question. So many people nowadays are carriers of things but they still succeed in having healthy children.

Keep thinking about it and don't worry about knowing for sure in even less than 6 mo - a year. When I wanted to get my tubes tied the insurance company made me wait 60 days before they'd approve to be sure I KNEW I wanted to do it. Good Luck.

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ryfo

My wife and I havent got kids, but she feels the 'tugging' every now and then. The reason she doesnt listen to it is that it goes away after a while and only happens when she sees the brighter side of having kids..the content new mum, the son hugging the dad, the kids being quiet while out,she doesnt feel it when she sees other women frazzled and at the end of their rope because the children are being naughty. As she says you have to take the good with the bad, and she couldnt see herself taking the bad so well. So think about the good and the bad and communicate with your partner. Hope it works out.

snowy

Agree, 100%.

But this decision needs to come from both of you, after a period of several months. Urges come and go; children don't.

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Cynthetiq

When they are teens they do apparently since that's what my parents griped about... "You treat the house like it's a hotel!"

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Mondak

So our boy Wyatt is almost 11 months right now. He has been a wonderful enhancement to our lives to be sure. That being said, not everyone should have kids. In fact, if it were just me or me with another person, I don't think it would be right for me.

There is a lot of pressure in society to be the same. If someone is healthy enough to even ask themselves the question and SERIOUSLY take inventory of whether they should have kids, they are in the minority. Sure people pay the decision to produce a life lip service. If they do an investigation though - they simply process the data that leads them to the end they already choose and ignore the things that point to the contrary.

Most times, if someone who has kids catches wind of your investigation, they tend to take it as an indictment of their "decision". To them you NEED to have kids - just trust them on this fact. You can possibly know for yourself unless you are in the situation. That does not leave a lot of room for those who should not have kids. The key question that everyone seems to miss is "why".

I am pretty selfish with my time. Taking inventory of this fact means that if I am going to have a kid, I better have a partner that shoulders the considerable emotional load that raising a healthy child requires. Chasey challenges me to give a lot to the boy - more than I knew I was capable of - but no so much that I fail. We discussed these things in very clear terms before going forward and setting realistic expectations has really been the key to our (so far) success.

I looked over your reasons and I think they are well thought out and reasonable. The one thing that was interesting to me though was the point about #1 (the job thing). If you HAVE to change to support the kid and you end up doing something or working with people you don't love, that might be able to generate some unrecognised resentment toward the kid. There are lots of things that might do that. Being forced to change for any reason doesn't work out well. Choosing it with open eyes is always much better. I use that example because I would recommend really examining all aspects that might change (vacations, money, religious issues, extended family issues to name a few).

Like I said, I am really happy to see you taking a methodical logical approach to this and I am confident that you will end up in the right place if you go through this the right way.

A final thought, there is certainly a place for children in our lives and a natural instinct to procreate. Look around for ways to address this in a meaningful and rewarding way so that you can't mistake this hole for a real desire to have a kid. I stress the rewarding part because this is not just some charity work. It could simply be a consistent contact with a family member's kid or a specific area where you interact with them (e.g. you can be the t-ball aunt /uncle or whatever). To address it though - I would guess that the contact would need to be both consistent (every week even without an easy "out") and personal.

Good luck you two.

__________________
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First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

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ngdawg

One thing Mondak and a couple of others touched upon and that is 'job'. I'm of firm belief that whether both work or not, living with kids needs to be something that could be done on one salary if need be. Daycare should not be the place a child is raised, but way too many parents fall into that pit thinking they have to have two incomes.
A study done quite a few years ago took daycare costs of any average couple, added it to commuter costs, work-related incidentals, etc. and found that if all expenses were taken out of one salary, that salary would end up being much less than half of what it would be if one parent stayed home-I think one couple used found the woman was making about $2 an hour!(She quit her job).
Kids need basic food and supplies. They don't need the lastest gadgets, the cutesy clothes(let grandparents and aunts and uncles splurge on those); in fact a naked baby is a good thing-at least right after its diaper change!
As for age, I was 37 1/2 when I had my twins. It took a toll on the body a bit more, but then again there were 2 in there, so that was a factor. There's a lot to be said about being an 'older' parent. We saw everyone around us having kids and made a lot of mental notes about what NOT to do. We had our house and things we enjoyed before the kids came. And they came not as surprises because we forgot a pill or condom, but because we so wanted them in our lives and that reflects heavily on how they're turning out I think.
There IS a lot of thinking to do for you both, but the bottom line is that you really have to want this as a goal and know that there are things that could go horribly wrong as well as wonderfully right. But it's the 'horribly wrong' you need to think about. If you can honestly say "I don't care about that" and be prepared for a fight because you want this child so badly, then you're halfway there.

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Martian

I see two major warning signs here and they've both been covered, but again for emphasis:

This is not something to compromise on, for one. Ratbastid absolutely has to be behind this idea for himself. It can't be something he does for you; otherwise children will put a strain on your relationship and drive a wedge between the two of you. You say you don't want to resent the child for not really wanting it in the first place. Ratbastid is definitely headed in that direction.

Second, you need to be very careful about the hypohidrotic ectodermal dysplasia. The optimistic side to it is that if a child borne by you has a 25% chance of having it, it means he has a 75% chance of not having it. However, that only applies if you're ready for the 25% chance. You need to be prepared for that possibility and the effect it will have on your and your child's life. If you don't feel like you can handle it, wait on having children until you can. It may result in never having children, but if so that's a more responsible choice to make than ending up with a son who has it and not having the will or stamina to deal with the issue.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
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Gilda

I just wanted to say that, though I don't really have much to add here to the decision making process, which has already been discussed better and better advice given than I would have, but I did want to say thank you lurkette and the rest for what you've posted, as it has been helpful in shedding some light on the decision making process Grace and I went through and what we need to be preparing for as we move ahead.

I hate to nitpick, but there's a 25% chance a son would have it. That's a 12.5% chance a child would have it. This doesn't, however, affect the rest of what you had to say, it just reduces the likelihood it would come into play.

Gilda

Martian

Even in that situation, it's still important to note the possibility. I have Crohn's Disease and, God willing, I'd like very much to have children with the right woman some day. I know that there's a 10% chance statistically that any child of mine would have Crohn's or Colitis as well; knowing the risk, I can allow myself to continue with the knowledge that there's a 90% chance a child of mine will not have Crohn's Disease and that, should it occur, I have the means and experience necessary from coping with my own illness that I can help another through it if it comes to that eventuality. It's not pleasant to think about, but I really do want children of my own and I think that, given the circumstances and nature of the illness, it's worth the risk.

Such is the nature of being a carrier for an illness. If you know there's a possibility for it, you have to weigh the risk and the potential downfall if the worst should occur. Once you've done that and decided to proceed, it's okay to hold onto that guarded optimism.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Gilda

No disagreement here. I just wanted to point out that there's a slightly higher probability of the best case scenario than you described. The same cautions do still apply, though, I agree.

Gilda

ARTelevision

For whatever it is worth, I do not see a good reason for having children.
There are a few selfish reasons - but they are not good reasons, as far as I'm concerned.

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Mondak

Good point. One thing though - if someone is going to stay home and take the primary child rearing duties, there is a double negative to quitting a job. When you are not occupied by work and unless you are VERY disiplined, that person may find ways to occupy idle time with things that spend money instead. I am amazed by the things we suddenly "need" that we never knew we needed before. Shopping / spending money increases in the time that we are not working. We don't agree with daycare for our kid and it does not fit with the goals we laid our for our child. We also have laid out realistic monatary plans that take into account the lack of a second income and the incresed non-child related spending.

The lesson here as always - I need to bring in more money. . .

__________________
All truth passes through three stages:
First it is ridiculed
Second, it is violently opposed and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

ngdawg

Mondak (slight threadjack here, but kind of applies to the decision-making process): When my kids were toddlers, I worked part time nights, 6pm to about midnight or so. That way, a parent was with them all the time, it brought in some extra money and got me out of the house. I wouldn't recommend it right off since babies are unpredictable-you think they're sleeping all night and then they decide not to, etc. Everything is a life adjustment when kids come into the picture, for sure.

Art: I agree, there IS no 'good' reason to have a child, but there's no good reason for many of the desires we seem to have except the feeling we get when we succeed in getting them-a very selfish reason, to be sure. But aren't they all....
The only reason to go ahead is their desire to do so. I think weighing the pros and cons makes that desire appear fickle or very real as they go through them, depending on their reactions to those pros and cons.

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Ustwo

As a very recent non-parent, now parent, hearing from a non-parent about reproduction is like hearing from a virgin about sex. Lots of opinions but no possible away of understanding what its really like. To me it sounds like you are looking for a reason NOT to have kids and there are reasons not to.

Reasons not to..
1 - I never knew how much freedom I had to do things until I didn't have it.
2 - Money.
3 - Worry. I worry about myself, I worry about my wife, but its nothing compared to the worry I have that something bad will happen to my child.

Those are about it. Kids will cost you money and time if you are a good parent, and will cause you endless worry.

Reasons to have a kid.......

Well first a question. Can you explain how good an orgasm feels like to someone who never had one? I know I couldn't. Likewise I can't explain the total joy a child brings into our lives. Its been amazing, its been the 'completing' moment of our already wonderful marriage.

Sometimes I wish we had more local babysitting, but beyond that I could not imaging going back to where we were three years ago.

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filtherton

I agree with everything, except for the fact that me and the lady aren't married.

ratbastid

I know that's what lurkette said, but it's not what she meant. Warning: Science Content Ahead. Warm up your Punnett Squares.

She has one affected X chromosome and one unaffected X chromosome (her mother was a carrier, her father was not). That makes her a carrier too, but since the HED gene is recessive, it's blocked by the healthy, dominant X chromosome. Girls can't have this disease unless both parents are carriers, and the gene ends up on both X chromosomes.

There's a 50% chance she'll supply the affected chromosome. In which case, there's a 50% chance that I'll supply a Y chromosome, which wouldn't have the corresponding healthy gene to block the expression of the X-linked HED gene, resulting in an affected male child. So, 50% of our male offspring would, statistically, have the disease, or 25% of our children overall. By the same logic, there's a 25% chance we'd have a carrier girl (the category lurkette and her mother are in), and a 50% chance we'd have a completely unaffected child of one gender or the other.

lurkette

What I meant was, out of the 4 possible phenotypes, where small x is the recessive mutation and big X is the "safe" x chromosome: girl-safe XX, boy-safe XY, girl-carrier xX, boy-affected xY, 1 of them manifests the symptoms of the disease. 1 in 4 chance of having an affected son.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

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Gilda

My mistake. I didn't read the OP closely enough, and though that lurkette had a 50/50 chance of being a carrier, resulting in a 25% chance of a son manifesting. She does say clearly that she believes she is a carrier, but I didn't catch that on the first reading. Entirely due to my lazy reading.

I apologize for getting pedantic about something you explained clearly originally and being wrong in the process. Thank you for the correctiion.

Gilda

tecoyah

Well worth a repeat.....


But I will say from experience.....No One can adequately explain the beauty and Joy a Child lends you, simply by being a part of your life.

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analog

No. Fucking. Way.

The "biological urges" can hit anyone, and often do- but that is absolutely no reason to suddenly go from being long-standing "99% no" to "oh wow maybe I want this".

There is no reason to succumb to the sudden onset of a temporary (and obviously not very severe) urge. That's like being in a store and having a dying urge to buy a new movie or videogame and giving in to it simply because you felt an urge to do so.

This happened only two weeks ago. That's a paltry, pathetic, and utterly dismissable period of time holding onto an urge when it contradicts up to 33 years (your age) of previously-held opinion. I had an intense, undying urge to buy a Nintendo DS Lite for like a month. That doesn't change the fact that rational thought, and the passage of some time, resolved the desires back into relative non-existance. I realized it was a passing interest that I had neither the financial or time resources with which to support such a lifestyle.

Yeah, you're kinda pulling a fairly sudden 180 on him with the baby thing. To be honest, I think most men (good men) in his position would be as supportive as he's being... having absolutely nothing to do with how completely and rigidly opposed they really are internally, and how much they're concerned you might actually want to go through with it. Being ruled by an urge is bad, yes, but allowing a sudden urge to drag down your partner, whose shared your no-kid policy since the start is just... well, very bad. The "indulge the fantasy" exercise is bullshit, by the way. It's designed to increase those urges, not "help you determine" anything. How in the hell is living out a fantasy going to help you objectively weigh anything? It's not.

Hmm, i'm wondering if I should let a girl have sex with me? I know... I'll have her get naked and gyrate/move in front of me to recreate the "fantasy" of the sex act, and then I can make an objective decision on whether or not that's something i'd like. [/sarcasm] I'm sure your therapist is very knowledgable and all that, but this method is very suspect, and psychologists in general have tons of differing opinions on how to treat things. Of course you're slipping into "let's do it", you're hyping yourself up into it!

I have a 6-month rule about tattoos... I won't get anything inked on me for at least 6 months after I finalize the idea for it... but you're thinking of having a kid... being impregnated, birthing, and raising a child for the rest of your life, based on an urge and two dreams over the course of 2 weeks? No. No no no.

If nothing else, consider the financial aspect. Think to yourself... IF you were to ever want a kid... would you really want to do it without predictable income? I mean, all exacting measurements of financial status aside, unpredictable income can cause any money-status, good or bad, to suddenly deteriorate quickly. There's also the genetics issue of having a child (forbid it) with a serious health issue.

Give it more time. Think about it longer. A lot longer. Give it several months. You will almost definitely come out of this urge and wonder what the hell you were thinking. lol... Or, who knows. The point is, 2 weeks and a couple of dreams should not cause you to ignore your previous, strong, long-standing opinions on having a kid. You had those dreams because you thought about being a mom. It's not a cosmic push or deity-induced "vision" of your life's new mission. Don't give in.

...and for every parent who gives you that "you have no idea what kind of joy you get from a child" and blah blah blah bullshit... ignore it. That's not an argument for having a kid, it's an opinion of their feelings. The opinionated feelings of a parent have no business in making a real, important, permanent decision like this. Someone else liking something is not at all a compelling argument/reason to do it.

Good luck.

raeanna74

To the gainsayers that think there is no good reason to have a child...
If adoption is not an option then we need good, healthy, intelligent couples to procreate or the number of stupid people on the planet will overrun the intelligent ones. There's way to many stupid people who have too many stupid kids. Lets produce a FEW smart ones at least.

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Mondak

You know these days the term "LOL" overused I think. In this case I actually laughed out loud. Great point here. I love hyperbole.

Oh yeah, and ustwo's post made me laugh for a different reason as well but not out loud.

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Ustwo

You compare buying a Nintendo and getting a Tatoo as valid arguments against having a child yet those of us who have them give nothing but bullshit arguments?

What do you think having a child is, some sort of risk/reward argument that you can put on a sheet of pros and cons and come to a conclusion?

When we decided to have a child I was less than enthused, its a big change and change is scary. Once she was pregnant I got even more uncomfortable with the whole idea. Only an ass would just assume they were going to be a good parent or that they were ready for it. I'm glad I didn't take a tally sheet and try to do the math to figure out if having a child was the 'right' thing to do. My only regret is that we didn't do it sooner.

We of course know a number of childless couples, they have done their best to overthink their way out of having children, and I feel sorry for them. One of my best friends is one of these people, and its pathetic and sad seeing his wife treat their dog like a child and not being aware of the substitution.

The biological clock ticking is more than a cliche, its a truth for women, they only get so many years where they can have children, and the longer you wait the bigger the chance of problems.

There are a great number of parents who should not be parents, you can see them on any episode of cops. These people still have children because what makes them bad parents is not thinking of consequences before action. On the other hand the people not having kids ARE the ones thinking about consequences, and ironically they would be the best parents but they talk them self out of it, paralyzed by their own fears.

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lurkette

OK....good points on all sides. Keep 'em coming! This is great food for thought, and I find myself horror-stricken by the fact that Ustwo is making sense to me! But then, so is Analog. You guys are just carrying out externally the argument I'm having with myself.

While we're at it, add these to the list of thoughts I'm spewing:

Another (good? bad?) reason not to have a kid:

- overpopulation and environmental destruction. We don't need more people on the planet, its resources are taxed enough as is, and another American kid is just going to add to the rampant consumption of resources.

Another (good? bad?) reason to have a kid:

- The thought of NOT doing it, of missing that particular opportunity to grow and to have that sweet experience, makes me very sad.

Thoughts? Particularly on the ethics of having a child in an already overpopulated world.

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Cynthetiq

Childless implies that one cannot have children, one is "barren" or "poor swimmers." There are some like my wife and I who have made a conscious decision to be childfree. A decision to not have children because it doesn't fit our lifestyle choices.

While we treat our cats child like sometimes, we cannot however do what we do with the cats to children, such as leave them completely unsupervised for 8+ hours M-F.

We cannot leave them from 3 weeks and have someone just come over and add food and water to the bowl and clean the litter.

If we could then maybe we could be parents...

but that's the consequences of decisions... learning to live the with the fact you made a decision. Sure, I'm sad that I didn't get to see Dances With Wolves on the big screen, supposedly it is so much more moving. Focusing on the negative well, then you forsake the positives which you should go all in for gratitude.

Childfree wiki re: overpopulation...I'd counter that someone needs to be brought up with the idea that there needs to be some conservation of resourses. If you don't procreate and pass on your thoughts, then the thought just dies out with you.

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Charlatan

I have read and re-read this thread and I just don't have anything to say about it other than this:

Everything that everyone has said here is bunk (as far as you should be concerned). In the end there are no pros and cons. In the end, all of these arguments fall away and you are left you and Ratbastid.

It is a hard decision, it is an easy decision... but it is one you have to ultimately make together and based only on who you are and what you want from life.

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The_Jazz

I need to add to my earlier points that you should think about not only where you are now but where you want to be 10 and 20 and 30 years from now. Do you see yourselves being in the twilight of life and being unhappy with no children? Do you see yourselves being happy that you are free to travel? It's a tough exercise but a necessary one. When I tried looking in my own crystal ball, I found it hard to imagine myself NOT being a little league or soccer coach or teaching someone to shave. But that's me and should in no way reflect on anyone else.

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Ustwo

Ok I was waiting for this but hoping it wouldn't come up. Not to be a dick but its one of the most silly arguments I've ever heard and its come up long before this. Its silly on evolutionary and political level, and the ironic thing is more people who buy into this the more you will see the opposite effect in the long run.

Evolutionarily what you are saying is 'my genes are not worthy of being passed on so I'll let someone elses take over while I die childless.' People are going to breed no matter what, but while you worry about the carbon foot print of your potential child they already have theirs. You are encouraging a long term shift in the population dynamics.

Politically its even more clear. When you are gone, you are gone, the planet will be run by the children of those who decided to have children. To make an exaggerated example, if everyone who thought there were too many people and they would justify not having children in some altruistic sacrifice of genetic fitness, the next generation is going to be Mormons, mexicans and southern republicans. This type of effect is already believed to have happened due to abortion in the US.

The population of the Western world is DECLINING, less and less of us of European stock are being born, there is no overpopulation where we live and all you are saying is 'let others have it' your sacrifice will do nothing but ensure others who do not share your world view are in charge later on.

If you don't want to have a kid, don't have a kid, but for the flying spaghetti monsters sake, don't even dream of falling for the overpopulation poppycock.

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Sultana

While I do overall agree that this is a huge, life-changing turn, and that no one should abandon one's previous life-long commitment over a two-week old urge...People change. It's the nature of life. I can't imagine being so rigid that one shouldn't even entertain the notion that a decision that was right for a person when they were 21 is exactly the same choice that holds true 10-15 years down the road.

For the record, I am child-free, and intend to remain that way for the rest of my life. I'm not a kid-hater, though, LOL!

I would personally suggest going a year, and noting every thing that happens as if you already had a child, and alternatively, a child with the disability that you mentioned. Every holiday (it could be the mast amazing, most fun thing ever, or the kid could spend the entire time throwing up, causing you to have to cancel your pre-paid, no refund vacation plans...), every *first* (snow, swim, pickle, emergency room visit). Kinda like the "Life" game on a large scale, I suppose.

Come ON. They're asking for input here, and the feelings of folks who have done this already is part of that input. If someone were to ask me if they should go to Europe or Egypt, I'd say, "Yeah, go for it!" because *I* went, and enjoyed it. Had good *feelings* about it, and those incalcuable intangibles are what motivates us a human beings. There were times in Egypt especially where I was sick as a dog, hotter than heck, and in great pain--yet it all came together for an unforgettable, life changing experience that I would encourage everyone to live for themselves. (Quite a promotional tourist statement for Egypt, eh?)

As Mal and later Cyn said, "It will be what you decide it will be," regardless of the externals. Heck, read my sig!

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