nash

I've been doing some casual weightlifting for the last year or so. I'd like to continue getting stronger without gaining size (chest specifically). Currently I'm doing chest/triceps/etc exercises about once a week, and biceps/back/etc exercises a few days after that.

For chest:
I'm doing three sets of dumbbell bench after two warmup sets with lighter weights. I do inclines and sometimes declines after that.

How should I change my routine to continue getting stronger without getting bigger? Thanks for any suggestions!

debaser

Are you interested in gross strength or endurance?

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ronan

high reps with less weight keep in area 12-15 keep em around there

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fantazio

dont listen to these people
high reps wont do anything for you. if you want "muscle tone" then you need to lower your bodyfat by doing cardio.
high reps is a myth. low reps is the truth

oh and you cant get stronger by not getting bigger. strength comes with size. its scientifically proven just like what i said earlier is also.

pick up a book guys instead of getting advice from the internet. i recommend High Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way
can get it off amazon

ronan

recommending mikes training is fine but just because his training has worked for your doesnt mean it will work for him,everyone is different the best way is to findout what works for you is by trial and error

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mtbiker

no one method works for everyone.
except that using the muscle makes it stronger...and bigger.

funny though, if you listen to the first bit of advice fantazio gives, you have to ignore the rest of the post.

try the high reps for a while and see what happens...many people dramatically change their muscles with high reps low weight..myself included. But I also got a lot bigger over time with that approach.

fantazio

you idiot. post that advice on a bodybuilding forum such as http://forum.bodybuilding.com and you will get laughed at
high reps does nothing for you

nash

How about either? How would I go about training for either?

I don't like the size that I'm getting but I don't want to just stop hitting the weights. I know that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Currently I've just reached the ability to bench 3 sets of 10 with those dumbbells. I can probably squeeze out a few more each set, but I've been saving the energy for other exercises later (i.e., inclines, declines, maybe dips). Should I continue to increase the reps I do for this weight?

Or should I go and do more sets and reps at a lower weight. Since I don't have access to a gym right now, the next lower set of dumbbells i have is 25 lbs lighter each. Should I just use those? I don't know the max number of reps I can do with those yet. I'll have to try some time this week.

On a side note, I guess I'm trying to "body-unbuild" rather than bodybuild. Heh.

fantazio

i dont see why you would want to get smaller but just do less, dont do declines or flat.. just do inclines (contrary to poular belief.. this is the best chest builder.. not flat. and btw theres no such thing as upper or lower or middle chest. theres the pectoralis major,which is effected by all press's and then theres the minor which dips work)

try pre exhaust also

go to pec deck do a set to failure (dont save energy for other exercises thats just plain dumb)
then go right to incline db press with no rest.

i usually do 1 set of pec deck.. then anohter set to failure,then run over to incline db press, rest and do another set. and thats my chest workout. i do dips on my tricep day

its a pure heavy duty routine which works great

debaser

Well, weight training is pretty much the only way to build gross strength, but, as our rather boorish rookie mentioned, it will cause you to gain body mass.

Endurance, on the other hand, can be built with very little increase in body mass. If you are interested in such a routine, the high reps/low wieght is a good method, but I reccomend doing various types of push-ups and sit-ups (leg lifts, flutter kicks, supine bicycle, etc). Suppliment this with a good run two or three times a week (I rotate sprints with a long run).

Gross strength may impress the other muscle-heads at the gym, but endurance is far more practicle in everyday life.

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fantazio

yes doing high reps will get you endurance,but in no way will it help "muscle toning" or "definition" which are both myths. you get definition by having a low body fat and fairly sized muscles.
but i see no reason as to train for endurance.. what body type are you looking for?

human

Most of the stuff I've read, basically has this to say about high reps for endurance : There isn't much point. Building endurance with 12-15 reps, or even 40-50 reps or low weight just isn't really worth it, to do real endurance training for a particular muscle group, you need to look at doing things for 30 minutes to an hour. (so for back/chest/arms go swimming (hard) for as long as you can etc)

Also, as far as getting huge, or not, as the case may be, diet has a pretty important factor. If you are taking in enough calories to just take care of the work you do over the course of the day, you won't put on any serious muscle mass to worry about.

As far as the body unbuilding comment, if you are not happy with the size you are getting, the only real solutions is along the lines of what debaser said. Do hard endurance work, running, swimming, riding, whatever your poison, and keep a slight (VERY slight) caloric deficit. That'll slowly take off the muscle mass, but you will get a bit weaker... But seriously, talk to a personal trainer or someone from your local college/university in kinesiology for a real solution.

fantazio

i just dont see why he wants to get smaller. you goin for the justin timberlake look?

Antagony

Sweet, I finally got to see a sausage fight in this forum!

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Mael

wait wait wait wait wait wait. so tone and definition are myths? then how can you acheive definition by having "low body fat and fairly sized muscles" if it's a myth?

and tone does exist. look up the definition, maybe if you work for the knowledge you'll earn it and learn it.

oh , and while you may see no reason to train for endurance, thats irrelevant if someone else wants to. either help or don't say anything. thanks.

nash

I guess in wrestling, both strength and endurance (and of course technique) is important. But the catch there is that you also want to keep your weight down. I used to wrestle for a little bit, so I guess I've gotten used to that mentality. Also, I'm not trying to "look better." Just trying get stronger and increase endurance. I've been doing upperbody lifting to gain strength and I've been doing endurace stuff for my legs. I'm not trying to lose weight either, I'm content staying the same or gaining. I think what I'm trying to say is that I'd like to get more dense.

On a side note, after I stopped wrestling, I tried to gain weight for a few months. I gained maybe 5 lbs in two or three months and didn't think it was worth it. I'm the kind of person who would never ever take supplements so I just kept eating a lot of meat (chicken mostly). It was very taxing on my wallet so I went back to my "regular" diet.

Thanks for the suggestions so far!

Marius1

As a marshal artist I disagree with those saying high reps does nothing.

Most of my training has been against my own body weight. Started off with low reps and as I became more advanced the reps have gone up and up and up in number. I'm bigger than I was with little increase in the load I'm exercising with (my own weight). I can lift more than I use to.

fantazio

no i just think training for endurance is a myth since i only train for looks instead of real life situations.
and i ment doing high reps = tone or definition = myth

Darkblack

fantazio before you go calling people an idiot I would do some research and really understand everything about the topic.

As to why someone would want to get smaller yet stronger there are many reasons and many ways to get there.

I am also shooting for the same goal. I am about 210 right now but would like to get down to the 195 range. I would also like to get smaller because I do Kung Fu and would like to get more speed. It is a fact that smaller is faster.

To get there I do push ups and sit ups/crunches plus some light weight training with high reps. This with a good diet and cardio workout is working for me.

I am already toning up my arms and chest and have doubled the amount of pushups I can do in one sitting. This tells me I am getting stronger also.

I think you just need to find a program that will work for you.

fantazio

research on what? youre the one thinking push ups make you stronger lol.
push ups just give you endurance,just like any high rep exercise. i said i dont see the point of doing endurance because i dont do martial arts or anything,maybe for you its worth it. but not me

Ether

fantazio: You have a very narrow definition of what is "Strength" and what weight-training is all about.

It is entirely possible to increase strength and remain at the same body weight (without any fat loss) to a certain degree. You have alot to learn before shooting your mouth off so arrogantly.

fantazio

haha. right. i read books,and i research. unlike you who gets all his crap from the internet. im sorry but i am right. there are even studies shown that

kryoptic

Here is what I have to say from what I've read:
To increase muscle size and strengh, you do low reps and few sets to the point of concentric muscle failure. You do this every other day ideally, every two days if you have to. Don't do stuff like upperbody one day and lower the next, take a day to recouperate your energy.
High reps with low weights will not give you definition. Cardio or exercises to reduce fat does that as mentioned.

Just a note about pushups and other body weight exercises, you would think that those do increase strength. How is body weight any different from other weights? It might not be optimal in terms of increasing strength, but it does do something.

Finally, I have to say that rowing is great exercise. It works many different upperbody and lowerbody muscles and increases endurance as it is also a cardio workout. Again, as a strength workout not ideal, but certainly does a good job as far as I'm concerned in that it works out many different muscles for just one exercise.

Mael

if you're gonna continue to be arrogant about your ignorance, provide some sort of proof, like, say, site one of these studies you say happened. so far, everything you've said sounds like "this is how i do it, this is my way, and there isn't any other way thats right because i said so." since you're the one with the differing opinion, i think you should back it up with evidence.

fantazio

i didnt finish my post. anyway go read a book such as High Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer way.. great information
and there are scientific studies that show that strength is directly related to mass. meaning.. you get stronger,you get bigger.. its what happens. why do you think bodybuilders aim for increasing weight often? because thats how you get bigger
there are many books out there,i dont mean to sound arrogant,i just didnt expect this kind of "mythology" on a fitness forum. but then again its more like a porn forum.
as i said before go to http://forum.bodybuilding.com if you want real advice not stuff like "do high reps to get tonage" and "you can get stronger but not bigger"

fantazio

you know your stuff
and about bodyweight exercises,they are endurance. i mean.. if you were weak and you can only do like 6 push ups,sure that will make you stronger and increase your bench. but doing 60+ push ups wont do anything toward your bench because its more cardio then anything

Mael

i think this is quite possibly the dumbest thing i have ever read. congratulations!!! here, have a cookie.



okay, lets address a few points here...

1. i haven't read mike's book, i looked it up on amazon. looks interesting based on the comments made on it, i might check it out. but based on what you've said and what comments people left on it said, you're an "extreme" group and to me, that makes your opinions almost completely invalid to me. this is why: you guys keep saying "this is the only way, nothing else works, yadda yadda." or at least that seems to be the gist of it. you espouse (sp?) all the virtues of your method, show all of the negitives of the others (even siting studies), but any time a study is done that either says your way isn't the best or that another way is good/better than your way, you ignore or say that it was done with faulty methods. a good example of this would be militant vegans and PETA people. so basically, you don't come off as very open minded or knowledgable about what your saying because you willfully ignore other information.

2. bigger = stronger, stronger = bigger. you won't hear me argue that. strength is proportional to the cross-section diameter of the muscle fiber, so to get stronger, you either increase your fibers in size or in number, either way, the muscle gets bigger. but, for someone who doesn't lift often, they'll find that they'll get stronger without getting bigger as their motor neuron bundles learn to sync up and act as one. initially, you try to lift a heavy weight, and so many of the bundles are recruited to lift it, and as you do it more often, your body adjust to start recruiting more and more of them, so the person seemingly gets stronger. also, you can get stronger without putting on a whole lot of size. the difference in size of someone who can bench 100lbs. and 130lbs. isn't much.

3. you seem to be responsible for most of the "mythology" in this forum. what pretty much everyone else has said has been shown to be true, you just don't seem to like it so you ignore it (see 1).

4. high reps = tone. you don't agree? too bad. you're wrong. muscle tone is, by definition, the ability for a muscle to contract over long periods of time. that might not be 100% right word for word, but i'll pull out my physiology book and give you the exact def, page, book edition, etc. if you want.

that is all for now. i think it's time to sleep.

kryoptic

This(above) sounds like endurance.

tone
1. The normal state of elastic tension or partial contraction in resting muscles.
2. Normal firmness of a tissue or an organ.
ref: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tone

Mael

yep. and in the post that you're quoting, i meant to say that tone is the ability to "hold" a contraction over a period of time, not just contract. muscle tone is how we keep ourselves standinf upright (ie. spinal erectors, abs, etc.)

tigerkick

go to google.. then type "bruce lee training" and you'll get lots of info

Sleepyjack

i think its counter-productive and even unhealthy (mentally) to work out etc with the primary aim of fueling your narcisism.

Also you contradict yourself, by saying high reps aren't any good because if you do like 60+ puchsups for example, then it turns into a cardio excercise. And that high reps aren't used fro definition you should do cardio to lower your body fat, but you said doing high reps turns into a cardio excercise. If you connect the dots, then it seems that way.

rainheart

definition is achieved by lower body fat levels

endurance is achieved by higher repetitions

strength is achieved by dieting and pumping more heavier iron

note: by dieting i mean dieting to gain weight

kris

It also has a lot to due with genetics and how your body responds to the shape of your muscles when they build up. Some people have a very hard time getting bigger or vice-versa and there is not really much you can do about it.

Konichiwaneko

I got tired of reading this post because Fantazio is an ass.

I won't do it his wat in fear of getting his attitude and disrespect he obviously show's toward other people. Even if they are wrong, you shouldn't call them idiots. I don't know if they are wrong or not, but everyone here is trying to help.

Just my $0.02

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nash

Thanks for the replies guys. As for Fantazio and similar posters, I just skip their posts and go on to the next one. It's much easier and less frustrating that way.