Racnad

From time to time I do Google searches for people I used to know – people who I went to elementary school or high school with. Most of the time, these searches come up empty. Sometimes you get pages of hits for others with the same name, which can be very difficult to sort out when you have no idea where the person you knew lives or what they do for a living. Sometimes there will be a writer, politician or other celebrity with the same name, and you’d have 10 pages of hits for that person to sift through like a needle in a hay stack. But sometimes you can find people. But this time I almost wish I hadn’t.

When I was in elementary school, Lenny was one year older and grade ahead of me. He was one of a handful of Jewish kids at my school. I around 4rd grade I became acquainted with him on the playground. I liked hanging around him during recess, since he was not obsessed with sports like most other boys, and seemed very intelligent. He had an advanced vocabulary for his age.

But there were a few things off. One time I visited his house after school. I know absolutely nothing about his father, but I did have the impression he did not live with Lenny. The house was an absolute mess, even by the standards of my own family who were not neat-freaks by any means. I distinctly remember the kitchen floor being completely covered by old overlapping dried-up spills, like a faded Jackson Pollack painting.

After junior high, Lenny went to a different high school that the one I was to go to, so I lost touch of him for a few years. After high school, I somehow learned (I don’t recall how), that Lenny owned his own business that had something to do with computers. My brother and I had recently bought a Commodore computer, and I was having fun learning how to write basic programs to run on it. I looked forward to meeting an old buddy from Jr. High who was also into computers, so my brother and I went to visit him at his office.

At first I was quite impressed that someone only a year older than I had his own office, his own business cards, not to mention his own business, but just like before, there were a few things off.

First of all, he treated my visit for like a sales call than a social call. I wanted to talk about computer – Commodores, Apples, and fun things you could do with them. Every tome I would mention a piece of hardware, he would say “I can get you that!” and start quoting prices at me.

Next, Lenny had put on a bit of weight since 8th grade. This in itself is not so bad, but he was acting like the stereotypical overweight person, tearing open and consuming at least two candy bars during the 20 minutes or so I was there. Then his mother appeared at his desk with a plate of takeout food she had picked up for him. He employed his mother at his business – unusual, but there are plenty of family run businesses. I noticed that the wastebasket next to Lenny desk was filled with old take-out food containers. I wasn’t sure if they were from earlier in the day of from previous days. Either way, it reminded me of the condition of his family’s kitchen.

And speaking of his mother, at one pointed he shouted at his mother, demanded that she bring in his cigarettes from the car. I was taken aback, as I would never shout at my mother like that, especially for something like that.

Well, being put off at being treated more like a sales prospect that a friend, I never contacted or saw Lenny after that. But I did think of him occasionally. In the media I followed the rise and fall ofBarry Minkow, a young entrepreneur who in a few years took a carpet cleaning business he founded in his parents’ basement to Wall Street, and was interviewed by Oprah Winfrey as a role model for young people before that whole thing collapsed Enron-style. Minkow’s youth and confident, aggressive business manner reminded me of Lenny, and I wouldn’t have even been too surprised to learn that Lenny’s business career crash and burn in white collar scandal like Minkow’s did.

But the reality was worse. When I Googled his name a few weeks ago, I saw that one link went to a sex offender database. Naw, that can’t be him I thought. But the mugshot did not leave me convinced that it was not him, especially since the age gave was one year older than me. Another link went to a site called wikisposure.com, a site that exposes the identities of sex offenders active on the Internet. This page included a photo from a MySpace profile that left no doubt in my mind that this was a the same Lenny I knew 20 years ago.

This page contained more disturbing details:

He has two sex offence convictions from California, one for “lewd acts” with a person under 14 years of age.

He is a prolific author of stories about adult men having sex with young boys, posted at various gay sex story archives.

He participated with other pedophiles on the Internet in the production of a series of podcasts with MBLA-type topics of why it is good for young teen boys to have adult boyfriends.

This just blows me away. A smart kid with an aptitude & ambition for business apparently was derailed his sexual tendencies. According to the website I read, he has worked in pest control (although he lost his pest control license in California due to his conviction), and as of this past September, was living homeless in a city outside of California.

Although I’m not gay, I can understand being gay. So for God’s sake, why couldn’t he have stuck with men around his own age? There are lots of men who are gay and live to their full potential. No one should let their sex life fuck up the rest of their life.

Ustwo

*Insert standard pedophilia is different than homosexuality line.*

It seems to be a disease in these people, I don't get it. Hell at my age even the 20 somethings are looking to young for me.

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snowy

Homosexuality and pedophilia are two entirely different things.

You totally beat me to it.

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ziadel

Wow.....

Thats screwed up.

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Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

Manic_Skafe

Most child molesters were abused children and the state of his childhood home should serve as an early insight as to why he turned out the way he did.

I can't say I wish him the best but I hope he gets his life together and I hope that whomever he hurt can break the cycle.

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Menoman

20 somethings are never looking to young unless you are just REALLY too old man!

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Ustwo

Well they are still nice eye candy but early twenties look more like kids to me. Its sort of a 'get some real experience and then I'll warp you' type of thing.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

analog

Infinite_Loser

Oh, but why is that? Remember... "You can't help who you're attracted too" (Or are you gonna' tell me that such an argument isn't valid?). Plus there are personal accounts from people convicted of pedophilia who have openly said that they didn't-- And still don't-- Understand why they feel the way they do, only that they have a certain attraction towards underage persons. I mean, can you really blame a guy for acting on feelings he was born with? I kinda' find it funny how the rationalization for one act seemingly becomes "wrong" when correlated to another.

Plus, most pedophiles are usually men and prefer other men (It seems to be the 'norm within pedophiles) but, meh, take that to mean what you will >_>

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Frosstbyte

Well, from some purely "we can't control who we're attracted to" level, it's a valid point. The reason we draw the line so clearly is because one is between consenting adults and one is preying on those who are not mature enough to make appropriate sexual decisions. I think you know very well the difference and why it's a difference and you're very deliberately choosing to neglect the "consenting adults" versus "abusing an innocent child" distinction because of your anti-gay feelings.

Infinite_Loser

That wasn't the point I was making. I commonly hear the argument "You can't help who you're attracted to!" clause used around here whenever someone wants to justifiy homosexuality. All right. Fine. Whatever. But by the same extension, pedophilia/incest/bestiality/any other type of sexual behavior which is considered taboo should also be justified under the same rationale. What's to say they don't feel any less to attracted to the people/things they are than you are attracted to the people/things you are? Nothing! Why is it that "You can't help who you're attracted to" is only acceptable when you think it is?

Anywho, "Consent" is an irrelevant concept simply because society has set up arbitrary numbers dictating at what age someone can and can't give willing consent. It doesn't mean anything in the natural sense.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Ustwo

Some people are turned on by killing people and having sex with their corpse, they can't help it. It sucks to be them because society has deemed such activities illegal.

Where we draw the line can be changed, such as with homosexuality. The current philosophy is if its not hurting anyone, then so be it.

Since we think children are harmed from being used for sex by adults, then that is where we draw the line.

We don't care about their motivations, or if they can't help it, prisons are filled with people who couldn't help it.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Infinite_Loser

^So I'm glad you seem to agree that "They can't help the way they feel" to be a rather absurd justification for any activity. See how easy it is to get along

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

analog

I'd first like to say I'm really proud of the way that you manage to find something wrong with, and post controversially to, every single topic ever brought forth on these boards. Bravo for that alone.

Second, there's a huge difference between liking adults capable of consenting to a relationship, and liking children who are not adults and not capable of consenting to a relationship. So yes, never mind that any intercourse with a child is rape, it's totally the same thing as consensual sex with an adult.

MSD

Acting on pedophilia causes severe, irreversible harm to others, homosexuality does not. That's the difference. If someone is biologically attracted to children, it is their duty to society and especially to those who they may victimize to not act on those urges.
Society has set up those numbers because early sexual activity is psychologically harmful to developing children. There are some exceptions because it's understood that teenagers will have sex, so it's pretty common to have a 2 year spread for underage couples or when one is underage.

Infinite_Loser

What can I say? I can't help it if people make rather erroneous claims, can I? =D

Ummm... Yeah. Didn't I already go over this? The only reason it's considered 'wrong' is because society-- Well, let's just say the US in particular-- Has instituted an arbitrary age at which you can 'legally' give consent (The keyword here is arbitrary). It's not significant nor does it measure one's ability to make informed decisions. It's there just because (Much like the drinking age). Let's just throw out the law for a moment because it's irrelevant in the discussion. If a 'child' feels for an 'adult' what an 'adult' does for a 'child', then what's the problem?

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

shakran

no one's saying it's justification.

If a homosexual guy rapes a 40 year old man, we don't say "oh well he's gay, he can't help it." We say "He raped someone, throw the book at him." We don't worry about what his sexuality is, we worry about what his activity is.

By the same token, and what these NAMBLA jackasses fail to appreciate, we don't so much have an issue with the fact that some guy finds a teenager attractive, provided he doesn't act on it. Hell, a whole lot of people find teenage celebrities attractive, but that doesn't mean they go find 'em and rape 'em. We have a problem with NAMBLA people and people like them finding someone who is too young to make the choice, and then having sex with them. That's called statutory rape, and it's flat out wrong, immoral, and cruel to the child he does it to.

I don't care what his feelings are, but when he acts on those feelings in a way that harms someone else, we have a problem.

Infinite_Loser

Erm... Lemme' correct you on something. Rape causes irreversible harm to others. A child having sex with an adult does not. If I go out and find some 11-year old (Not that I would) and forced him to have sex with me against his will, that'd be considered rape. If I find an 11-year old boy and ask if he wants to have sex with me (Again, not that I would, as that'd be REALLY creepy), it wouldn't be quite the same thing. Sure, the law would probably deem the same two situations as the same but, fundamentally speaking, they're vastly different.

Forced sexual activity has been proven to be harmful to children, yes. Sexual activity in which they willingly participate in has not (Just so you know).

Edit: Since the majority of pedophiles are gay males, why is it 'wrong' to make a correlation between the two?

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telekinetic

I am absolutely not willing to concede that, and am in fact physically repulsed by the idea.

What I find almost as repulsive is the idea that you seem to be implying that being gay and being a pedophile is corrolated. Just because a large percentage of pedophiles are gay, does not mean that we should discuss this as if a large percentage of gays were pedophiles, in the same way that a large percentage of rapists are men, and yet a large percentage of men are not rapists.

Hyacinthe

I disagree with this strongly. I'm guessing you don't know anyone that has ever been a victim of sexual abuse because some of the most scarring memories are the ones in which you enjoy it or you don't fight because you can't imagine life being any other way.

If you're forced you can say "well I didn't want it" you're left with less guilt, but when it's a situation when you only realise afterwards that it's not something you were equipped to decide it's so much worse. You blame yourself as much if not more then the person who took advantage of you.

You said
There's a reason sex with a child is classified as Statuatory Rape.

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"Her emotions were clear waters. You could see the scarring and pockmarks at the bottom of the pool, but it was just a part of her landscape – the consequences of others’ actions in which she claimed no part."

Frosstbyte

I would adore a citation for this little tidbit of information.

I'll try to break this down for you as fairly as I can, given that I think generally you're deliberately trying to not understand because it gets in the way of your feelings on the issue.

Pedophilia and statutory rape fall into two fairly distinct (though equally illegal) categories. The first one, and the one that you're talking about, is liking SEXUALLY DEVELOPED (or developing) pre-teen/teenagers who happen to be below the age that we as a society have arbitrarily assigned as the "age of consent." The best and most common example of this is the middle/high school teacher having sex with her student. The student is sexually mature but below the age of consent. The student has breasts, pubic hair, can ejaculate, etc. They just happen to be under 16 or 18 or whatever the exact age is. In this case, your point has some legitimacy, because the only reason they can't give "consent" is because we have legally defined them as incapable of giving consent. It doesn't mean that they don't want to have sex or don't understand what sex is or can't enjoy it or anything else. It just means that they're below an assigned number. There are a myriad of reasons for WHY we have that number, which I'm not really inclined to go into, because it's not the point here.

The second kind, and the one that the rest of us are primarily talking about but which you're ignoring, is being sexually attracted to prepubescent children who have not begun any biological transformation towards sexual maturity. Before puberty, sex doesn't mean anything and is not something the body is prepared for or designed to do from a biological perspective. If you shaved their heads and covered their genitals, most boys and girls before puberty look basically the same. Their bodies have not begun to show the clear differentiation that we expect between the sexes (breasts and curves for girls, upper body breadth, deepening voice and general bulking up for guys). A child in this condition CANNOT consent by any definition, because no matter how clearly you try to explain what's about to happen, their bodies and minds simply are not prepared or designed to participate in the sexual act. Pedophiles ignore this inability to understand what sex is and means and, in fact, are attracted to the pre-sexual state and ignorance. They're forcing their will (and comprehension of sex) on a person who has neither the mental comprehension of what sex is nor the biological facilities to participate fully in it.

There is simply no analogue to adult consenting homosexuality or heterosexuality or anything else.

Infinite_Loser

Oh... I know one person.

*Hint hint, wink wink*

Once again, fundamentally speaking, there's no difference between a 15 year old having sex with a 13 year old and a 25 year old having sex with a 13 year old. Unfortunately society has decided that anyone under a certain age can't make informed decisions (Even though this is blatantly false) and, as a result, ostracizes anyone who bucks what's considered 'normal' (Boy, this suuure sounds familiar). Apparently no one remembers the days when young girls would be married and have kids by 14/15 years old...

Remember, folks, age is but a number. Having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you is wrong. Having sex with someone who wants to have sex with you isn't (Or, at least, that's the way it should be).

Yes, because the law has arbitrarily deemed that people under a certain age are incapable of making informed decisions. Outside of "Because it's the law" what reasons can you-- Or anyone-- Find as to why it's 'wrong' if both parties agree?

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

analog

At 11 years old, there's no such thing as consensual (willing participant) sex with an adult. Whether they said "hey yeah that sounds like a good idea" or just get violated- either way, it's rape.

You officially have no idea what you're talking about.

A recurring theme in your posting is "if a kid is a willing participant, where's the harm?". That line of thinking makes me nervous about your already dubious tactics of shifting blame for boy rape onto "the gays" and downplaying "society"s role in protecting children by assigning an age at which it's felt that children become emotionally and mentally mature enough to consent to sexual intercourse, and are then deemed "adults" by law.

So you're telling us that "if the kid likes it, it's ok" and that age of consent laws are arbitrary and bogus. Of what, exactly, are you trying to convince us? It seems like you're trying to justify sex with a child. Seriously, there's no other way to read that.

Considering only one third (and that's a high estimate) of child molestation victims are male, I immediately find that statement to be laughable nonsense, without having to delve any further.

~

You are ignorant. I'm not calling you stupid. I am calling you ignorant. You are ignorant.

Infinite_Loser

Erm... I said correlation, not causation. Being gay, at least in my mind, means you have a higher chance of engaging in pedophilia than you would if you weren't. But that doesn't mean that because you're gay you're going to engage in pedophilia. You seem to believe that I was implying the opposite.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

telekinetic

We're not talking about 13 year olds. We're talking about 6 year olds. And if you're trying to imply that you had a wonderful experience at 13 (or whenever) that didn't alter your viewpoint on the subject at all, you need to disclose that directly, rather than just wink wink nudge nudge.

abaya

Correlation is based on robust statistical analysis. Which study are you getting this "correlation" from? Please cite the peer-reviewed journal article/book chapter in full before you can even begin to expect me to take you somewhat seriously. Do not use statistical terms unless you have the goods to back them up.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Infinite_Loser

Yes. I know. "It's wrong because the law says it's wrong". That was established long, long ago. Jeez... Once upon a time, the law also said that it was 'wrong' for two homosexuals to engage in concensual sex, but that was later repealed (Hence why using the law as a means upon which to argue makes little sense).

First of all, I wasn't shifting any blame. I was simply giving you a fact. Secondly, I haven't downplayed anything. Anyone who has sex with anyone against their will should be prosecuted for rape. Never said they shouldn't be. Thirdly, do you not know/understand what arbitrary means? It wouldn't matter if the government suddenly decided to lower the age of consent to 10 or raise it to 30.

Erm... I've said "consent laws are arbitrary" at least ten times now. You can't be any clearer than that. Once again, you've yet to provide me a reason why consensual sex with a child is wrong that isn't "Because the law says so!" The fact is that you don't have any reasoning as to why it's wrong, except you disagree with it. You can skirt around that issue as much as you like, but it doesn't change the truth in the statement.

*Ahem*

I wonder where you get your statistics from...?

(Lemme' post this then I'll go find where I got that statement from.)

*Points above*

1.) No one is talking about 6-year olds. Am I, like, the only one who saw this line the OP: He participated with other pedophiles on the Internet in the production of a series of podcasts with MBLA-type topics of why it is good for young teen boys to have adult boyfriends. NAMBLA only supports/supported consensual sex with teenage boys. I'm not sure where you got the rest of that from

2.) Hyacinthe knows what I mean. It's not what you think it is.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

analog

I'm sorry, but I'm done talking to you.

Consider it a victory, if you like. There comes a time when what can be said, has been said, and that's that. I think we're at that point in this thread.

Menoman

I didn't read the entire thread, hard enough time getting through the OP while trying to work at the same time. I'm cool with stabbing pedophiles though, so if that comes up anywhere in the thread I'll be back!

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Infinite_Loser

You know... Why do you always only quote half of what I say and then make it out to say what you want it to say? That's ummm... Annoying. What about the part where I said "Being gay doesn't mean you will be a pedophile"? I guess that isn't/wasn't important, huh?

Anyway, as far as the statement I made goes, I know for a FACT I've seen it before. Just gimme' a little time to go dig it up. Shouldn't be too hard (At least in relation to other crap I've had to go digging for).

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Frosstbyte

I think the bottom line, IL, is that you can rant and rave about how pre-teens can consent to sex with adults all you want, and none of us are going to accept that as a premise or in any way related to adult consensual sexual activity.

Everyone else who has posted in this thread agrees that kids (including those teenage boys talked about in the OP) do not have the mental, physical and sexual maturity to engage in a healthy and balanced sexual relationship with an adult which is totally independent of whatever arbitrary number the law assigns to consent. Consent doesn't mean "I can say yes and want it to happen." Consent means "By saying yes, I understand and appreciate all of the consequences of the events about to transpire and have come to this conclusion of my own volition without any outside pressure, coercion or interference."

Kids do not have the perspective or maturity to realize what is being asked of them and, depending on how far we're feathering this age line down, may not have the biological capacity (as I outlined previously) to fully engage in a sexual act with any person of any age or gender. An adult who wants to have sex with a child (or preteen or whatever) would be able to exert a lot of pressure on that child to get them to say "yes" both psychologically and physically.

And pressure aside, how well can an 11 year old appreciate being propositioned for sex? I have friends who had sex with each other as teenagers and ruined their lives because they didn't appreciate the consequences of having sex. And these were people in otherwise healthy balanced high school relationships. Sex IS a big deal and knowing how to deal with it is not a joke. Even if pregnancy isn't a problem, it is one of our basest instincts as living organisms and taps into the core of our emotions. Kids shouldn't ever be in a position where an adult who is fully sexually mature is propositioning them, because there's no way those two can ever make a balanced, informed decision.

Obviously this isn't a conclusive finding, but what minimal looking I have done suggests that your "fact" about male-male pedophilia being much more common doesn't seem to represent what I've found.

That's an enormous range, but females seem to be molested at a meaningfully higher rate than males. That would tend to suggest that the majority of pedophiles are NOT gay. Guess you can dig through that survey if you feel like it, but I'd be surprised if you found a conclusive study which pointed to a significantly contrary result.

Menoman

I might be able to agree slightly if you were to reword how you are saying your opinion IL.

Something like (I think this is about what you are meaning)...

The law really has no effect on if a teen can make the decision, mentally and understand its consequences. The number 18 (or 16/17 depending on country) means very little, some 16 year olds are able the honestly make the decision where-as some 22 year olds are not mentally ready to make the decision.


But just reading your post, I don't think you will find much backing on that opinion.

Also as someone who knows a lil bit about ze gays, I find it basically insane that you think homosexuals are somehow linked to pedophilia bro ;\

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Racnad

Some comments from the OP:

Interesting discussion. Some jurisdictions presume that a 17-year old who is turning 18 next week is a child who lacks the maturity to consent to sex, but 10 days later the person is an adult and what he or she does in bed with another adult is no oen else's business. If 18 years is arbitrary, then when is someone emotionally mature enough to consent to sex? 17? 15? 14? Most likely it varies according to the individual (there are some 20 year olds who shouldn't have sex), but legally we have to draw the line somewhere.

As for Lenny, I know very little about his convictions and I haven't heard his pedo podcasts, but I did look at a couple of his stories and he seems to be into 13-14 year olds, not 6 year olds. I'll go out on a limb here and admit that some 14 year-old girls do look appealing to me. But women in their 20s, 30s and sometimes even 40s look great to me too. I haven't been with someone under 20 since I was under 20 myself. I can be sexually happy without taking risks or guilt over doing something wrong or being abusive to someone. Can it really be true that 19-20 year old college boys do nothing for Lenny?

Of course it could availabilty. I have the impression that thin hot 21 year old guys are as accessible to out-of-shape 40 somethings as 21 year old female hotties are for out of shape 40 something straight men who are not wealthy.

That brings in the issue of yes, you do have some control over who turns you on. Most men marry to women who do not look like the models on the titty board (or stay married to women even when they no longer look like that after a few years & kids). It's called maturity, and the ability to have a satisfying relationship based on much more than your partners looks, age and body type.

Aladdin Sane

IL, You my dear chap, are an example of grace under fire. You have been insulted, belittled, and ridiculed, yet you trudge on without falling into the trap. While your logic remains intact, your opponents crack with uncertain emotion.
Still, I regret to inform you that you will not win this fight. You are bucking against the new orthodoxy, the modern religion. Be careful. You can be jailed for it.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

MSD

The last time this kind of conversation came up, a licensed clinical psychiatrist confirmed my belief that sex between adults and children, even "consensual" sex, is psychologically harmful and provided a substantial amount of documentation to back it up. The DSM-IV labels pedophilia as a mental disorder and the medical community agrees that sex wtih adults is harmful to the mental development of children.

Do you really believe everything you post or are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
Consent laws are what they are because the medical community has concluded through years of research that it is harmful to a child's development to be sexually active until a certain point in their development.
If you weren't intending to imply it, then you said it because you knew it would piss people off, something you seem to revel in doing.
I agree with this, as does the consensus formed on years of medical research. If he had said this rather than claiming that an adult having sex with an 11-year-old is creepy but not harmful, then nobody would jump down his throat.
Explain to me how it's laudable to be a pedophile apologist when all reputable scientific and medical evidence contradict his positions. I'm not sure if he's sticking to morally indefensible positions because of his actual beliefs or simply because of a love of arguing.

Frosstbyte

This was exactly my thought when I read that post. I'd be quite interested to hear where it's coming from. I don't think we've attacked HIM personally, but rather some fairly extreme assertions he's made with our own experiences and research which contradict those assertions. What "modern orthodoxy" are we upholding?

genuinegirly

Seems a terrible thing to look up an old classmate and learn his life is down the tubes. Homeless, dejected - the rest of it aside, this is terrible news to hear. Even the experience with his computer business sounds dreadful. Disturbing.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy