Ustwo

Thank you, you saved me posting

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

sorry, dude, but there is absolutely no difference between these two, you just used different words.

It's really presumptuous and, yeah, rude to assume that anyone needs your criticism or approval for the way they choose to dress.

And I can think of very few instances where the words 'I think you're fat' can be used in a constructive way. Do you suppose people who are fat have failed to notice that they are fat? Do you supppose they are under the impression that it is healthy to be fat?

I appreciate that the motivation behind the theory purported in this article is deeper than the notion of 'saying everything that pops into your head.' But, the way I've seen the theory explained here pretty much looks like an attempt to validate being a narcissistic prick who mistakes their notions for honesty.

ooh, pardon my brutal honesty there...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

sapiens

I think that his (Blanton's) whole mission is to drink makers mark and sell his book - another addition to the watered down psychology found in the self-help industry. I searched for empirical investigations of his methods using a number of research databases. I found none. I doubt that his actually improve anything. I still don't see how deception of others is necessarily bad for you. Nor do I see how radical honesty necessarily "contribute[s] to other people" as he suggests. How is this not a rehash of "Honesty is the best policy" with some personal anecdotes?

As I said in prior posts, I see no problem with radical honesty in particular contexts. I do agree with Analog, that there is a difference between saying

"You're fat"
vs.
"I resent how fat you are, because it makes me uncomfortable."

though I expect that the outcomes of such statements might be the same. I also think that the motives for using radical honesty as described by Blanton might themselves be self-deceptive.

I think that a world populated with people who are always radically honest is a fantasy (and wouldn't necessarily be a better world). I also think that he might sell more books if his concept was "super xtreme radical honesty" rather than "radical honesty".

Cynthetiq

Again, this isn't about just looks. This goes down to things like, invitations out on nights you are too tired or too broke to do so. It's "easier" to make up an excuse rather than say the real honest reasons like, "I've not been sleeping well, I'm too tired to go out tonight." "I can't afford it, gas prices going up and unexpected flat tire put me over my budget." or plain "I just don't want to go out with you tonight." No we make up "fashionable excuses" like "Sorry, it's a work night, I've got to get up early," meanwhile you tell people stories of how you stay up late at night all the time.

Telling someone what you are feeling with honesty is being assertive. Asserting your own needs and desires into the fold without compromising the relationship. Being an asshole tends to compromise relationships.

Why bite your tongue? why withhold your opinion. This is part of what this place is supposed to be, to be honest yet still respectful.

IMO some of the discussion in this very thread is just the means and mechanism as to how TFP has lost some of it's edge.

In fact it's very much a part of why the Abiline paradox is what it is:

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

But is the alternative better?

The place were we pretend everything is ok, and the person with the bad body oder or awful perfume is never told that they cause gaging?

If a habit or action of yours is really annoying people but they are to 'nice' to say, you never change that behavior.

I'm all for it.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Glory's Sun

I see the other side of this. I think most people don't tell people they are fat, or they are stupid or whatever, because they will feel better if they don't. They lull themselves into thinking they did a good deed by not telling the person they need to lose weight then go behind their backs and start talking shit.

I've always been told I was too blunt. Am I really? Things are how they are and while some instances may work better with tact, it has always served me well to be blunt and honest. If my wife asks me if her dress makes her look fat.. and it does.. then I tell her yes. She laughs and wears it if she wants to.. she doesn't need my approval for how she looks, she just likes to ask.

For people who constantly need approval for their actions they would be much better off taking this sort of stance with themselves first and foremost before they tried to employ it with other people. This isn't just about fat or not, it's about everything you do.

"Damn, I did a shitty job at work today" vs, "I'm just tired" or "I'm jaded, I need a vacation"

I'd be very interested in seeing how things worked out in society if more people were brutally honest with themselves and with others. I know I prefer it that way.

sapiens

I don't think that anyone is arguing that we should all lie to each other or that honesty is somehow bad. To me, the scenarios you described sound like reasoned honesty rather than radical honesty.

I think that people should be as honest as they want, but as evidenced in this thread, there will likely be negative consequences depending on the context.

I think that one of the advantages of this forum is that the negative consequences of radical honesty are muted. I don't see this thread as evidence that TFP has lost some of it's edge. People are still discussing and disagreeing. If everyone agreed with Blanton or everyone was against Blanton, that would be clear evidence to me of a loss of "edge".

mixedmedia

Well, you see this isn't something new and radical to me. I've never had trouble with just being honest in this way. If I say 'it's a work night and I should get to bed' I would mean it...not being able to get to sleep when you get there is another issue altogether.

Well, yes, I agree. Again this doesn't seem like anything new or radical.

I don't. But your thoughts have to go through some kind of filter in order to 'stay respectful' - to differing extents based on your personality.

Perhaps you are right about that. Myself, I believe that discussion can be provocative and compelling and perverse and brutal and even a little dangerous without becoming a free-for-all for rudeness and boorish judgements.

Well your wife doesn't have a problem with it. Some other people might. All of this just sounds like pre-possession with self over the feelings of other people.

Now I don't advocate for coddling or lying. I suppose I adhere to a version of the old 'if you can't say something nice' adage. For example, I have a daughter who is fat. Not morbidly obese, but fat. I try to encourage her to eat better and take an interest in her health. She doesn't. I tell her the clothing that I think is most flattering on her, but she wears whatever the hell she wants to wear. And I leave it at that. She knows she is fat and she doesn't need that fact to be pointed out to her anymore than an amputee needs to be told they don't have legs.

oh, and the idea of telling someone that their fatness makes you uncomfortable is serving no greater purpose than airing notions you have in your own head that are your own responsibility to deal with. Not the fat person's sitting next to you.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

QuasiMondo

Radical Honesty must be for entertainment value, like doing your best imitation of Simon Colwell or chef Gordon Ramsay. It has to be, there's just no other way I can justify using it. I went back and read the article again.
Why add the shock value? Wasn't he honest enough the first time around? Obviously, it's not enough to be honest when it comes to Radical Honesty. You have to leave people with their jaws hanging open from what you've just said. This is supposed to be refreshing? I think not.

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-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Cynthetiq

Agreed. If he was being honest, it would have come out the first time.

There's also a little bit of dishonesty in emulating the author's shock and awe style. I'm honest in my own way without being disrespectful and using language that is if ill repute.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Glory's Sun

The thing is, that there are too many people who don't think they are fat, or lazy or ignorant. If the subject comes up then I'll say what I want to say. What's the difference in me saying "I think you could lose weight" vs "I think you're fat"? It says the same thing. If the person takes offense towards it, then that's their own problem. People have become too PC and defensive when it comes to their problems and lives and it's created too many problems. As I said, people should take a more honest and blunt approach towards <i>themselves</i> first.. then if it needs to be directed towards others..then so be it.

I've never said that a person being fat makes me uncomfortable.. they are fat.. it's their problem.. not mine. I'm just saying if they ask me if they are fat I will tell them they are. An employee asks me what I think of an idea.. I tell them honestly. Alot more seems to get done that way.. whether they call me an asshole or not.. the point was made and the results came.

filtherton

If someone told me that they were uncomfortable being seen with me because of something completely superficial, and that person didn't happen to sign my paychecks, i'd tell them to fuck off. If you don't want to be seen with me you can go be seen elsewhere. That would be me being brutally honest. It's one thing to acknowledge the fact that i look like a douchebag, because looking like a douchebag is often at least partly my goal in dressing and/or shaving the way that i do. However, I don't really feel the need to be friends, or really even associate, with people who are so shallow and insecure as to feel so embarrassed by the fact that i look like a douchebag that they don't want to publicly associate with me. Dressing like a douchebag is a nice way to screen those types of people out of my life.

I'm all for honesty when it serves a purpose, and i recognized that the simple fact that i am not really all that representative of the vast majority of people means the situations where i employ honesty might differ from others.

That being said, when the actions or appearances of people around me make me uncomfortable, provided the discomfort isn't acute, before i assume that my discomfort is righteous i like to take a moment and question whether my being uncomfortable is the result of me being petty, or the result of something more substantial.

If my discomfort is the result of pettiness on my part, than it is my problem, and you don't need to hear about my problem. If my discomfort is the result of something more substantial, than i would probably let you know.

The_Jazz

If someone asks me a direct question, I answer it with complete DIPLOMATIC honesty. If they ask if they look fat (and no one ever has, including my wife), I would tell them that what they were wearing wasn't their most flattering outfit, if it were true. If they didn't look fat, I'd simply tell them "no".

I've made enough money with that philosophy that I'm embarrassed to assign a rough amount. If someone asks me what I think about something, I'll always give them the truth and try to spare their feelings. If all you young ruffians want to live by the rule of constant brutal honest, I'd encourage you never to get into any career anywhere close to sales since you'd be an absolute failure.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

What people? All people? Or just some people?

Are you suggesting we take the lowest road possible with all people because some people have illusory perceptions about themselves and the image they portray?

And for the record, I have never met a fat person who didn't know they were fat. I've met fat people who are comfortable with their image and don't care what other people think, but none who are under the impression that they are anything but fat. And I'm not talking about people who are 20-30pounds 'overweight,' I'm talking about people who are, indeed, fat.

And are you suggesting that the only reason someone would be averse to being called fat, especially in public, is because they are not honest with themselves and their fatness? I call bullshit. It is because they are human and everyone experiences some level of distress at having their flaws and weaknesses paraded around by others - it makes them feel separate and estranged, even if just for a moment. You know, empathy is good. We have it for a reason.

No, sorry, you didn't say this. I was commenting on someone else's statement as an afterthought. I should have made that more clear.

Thinking about this more and more, for me, I think it's coming down to a common theory of mine about 'the cult of self' that seems to be so popular today. And in this instance it can be found in the idea that all of these thoughts and notions and perceptions and snap judgements that are constantly circulating in our heads are always important and meaningful. They're just not. Most of it is just useless bullshit and isn't deserving of the importance we place on it or the energy that is expended to push it out of our mouths. That's what this is coming down to for me.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

MexicanOnABike

I'm a bit like this. To spare someone's feeling, i'll be nice and tell a lie but when i know the person, i'll be as honest as I can while still being friends with them. That's how I want my friends to be with me!

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analog

Some people are getting very charged up over the idea of telling the truth; it's kind of funny.

I disagree. It's ok though, because my opinion of "brutal honesty" doesn't require anyone's approval on that point. It was just an analogy to help explain the main point, which is that there are many ways to say anything, but the way it's taken by the listener is motivated by your phrasing.

Kind of like saying, "those pants aren't very flattering" vs "those pants don't look good on you". They both get across the point that you don't like it and it doesn't look good on the person, but the former is more likely to spare the feelings of the listener. The point of the "brutal honesty" is that you say whichever it is that occurs to you to say. So if you think "those pants don't look good on you", you say THAT instead of re-translating it into something you deem more palatable.

I'm sorry it's not being explained in a way that you can understand. Maybe it'd be easier to ask open-ended questions rather than make closed-ended statements of judgment, like calling people narcissistic assholes. You don't indicate a willingness to communicate with us, you indicate a feeling of moral, ethical, or social superiority because you are of the differing opinion that it is more moral, ethical, or socially responsible to filter everything you say. That's fine, but you leave no room for others' opinions, which is what turns conversations into arguments.

I dislike that your differing opinion seems to give you a sense of entitlement to call other people narcissistic assholes, just for disagreeing on what you, yourself, called saying the same thing, using "different words". You either aren't seeing the difference in nuance, or don't want to concede that they are, indeed, saying two different things to the listener.

The message received may be the same, but the perception of the tone in the message is driven entirely by those "different words"- and the tone can mean everything when the listener is deciding whether or not to be offended/hurt, as in:

Your ass is too big for those pants.
vs
Those pants aren't very flattering.

[analog note: this post was messed up due to an accidental mod edit instead of quote, so it's a little out of context and maybe random at times, because things I originally quoted are missing. Oh well, most of you have already read it by now anyway, probably.]

wheelhomies

jazz, don't think all young ruffians favor this radical honesty hoo ha. yeah, it's funny, teehee, but ultimately it doesn't accomplish anything more than the classic method of giving your opinion with tact and consideration.

mm, actually, not done. i apologize in advance if this makes no sense whatsoever, stream of conciousness thing that i'm just getting out there.

some people (too lazy to quote) have said that radical honesty is good because people are too concerned with being polite, that it opens communication. in the article he states that it is liberating. ok, that's cool and everything...but why is it liberating? why is it the honesty that is being considered here, and not the peoples' outlooks involved. seriously. like what, are they perfect? what if i'm being "radically honest" when i say that anyone who feels they can dispense their opinions so freely regardless of consequence is selfish and values their own opinion a little too much.

why is everyone so critical and judgmental of everyone else? why is there the NEED to say shit like that? you know? why is it necessary.

__________________

Ustwo

Because some people are not very good at taking hints.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Cynthetiq

Or even, have just "done the polite thing" for so long that they don't know any differently.

It is no different than breaking out of the mold and doing something differently to spark growth and evolution.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Agreeing with most of what MM has said on this page so far... but I wanted to comment here. Why do people need "hints" in the first place? I mean, okay, if someone ASKS me for an opinion, I'm going to give it honestly.

But if someone randomly crosses my path and I dislike some aspect of them, who the hell appointed me as their personal trainer/coach? Since when is it my task to not only judge everyone around me (which is human nature), but to *pronounce* my judgments publicly (which is just plain rude and arrogant, in my "opinion," which I am voicing because this is a public discussion forum)?

Sorry, but no one has a corner on "truth." If someone wants your OPINION on truth, fine. They can ask for it, or bring it up in conversation, or post about it on TFP, etc. If not, then fuck off and keep your thoughts to yourself.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

Heh. Ustwo knows this as well, but not all evolution is positive and many evolutionary changes are dead ends.

Manners are social lubricants. They allow us to tolerate one another with a minimum of friction. I'd wager a substantial amount of money that if someone here practiced "radical honesty" on all their friends, within a year they wouldn't have many friends left.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

SecretMethod70

I think the discussion here is taking this "radical honesty" to an extreme. I could be wrong, but I don't think the idea is that one should simply run their mouth all the time, any time. However, the idea of "radical honesty" also seems to be that, when faced with being honest or being less so, one should be honest, and fully.

What works for a magazine - an eye-grabbing title such as "I Think You're Fat" - doesn't seem to work as well on discussion forums (surprise, surprise). I think the title has significantly distracted this discussion from the actual content of the article (not to mention that the title, based on what is written in the article, is in no way what "radical honesty" is about).

Now, I'm not really for or against this idea of "radical honesty," but I sure find it interesting. What was only briefly touched on in the article - but what I think is of core importance to this discussion - is how this honesty is supposed to be phrased. It is not supposed to be the first wording that comes to mind. The phrasing is supposed to be something that encourages communication, as opposed to simply the statement of opinion. For example, the story in the article where the author tells his friend "I resent you for not inviting me to your wedding (and this is why)." There's a huge difference between saying that and "You should have invited me to your wedding, jerk."

It seems to me that discussion here started out quite cynical and hasn't gotten past that. I think there's a lot more to this than simply focusing on people who are looking for excuses to be assholes and run their mouth. Indeed, I think the difference (and the fact the difference has not been recognized in this thread) is seen in the two different phrases which have been used here: "radical honesty" vs "brutal honesty." I don't think, based on the little information available in the article, that they are even remotely the same thing. "Brutal honesty" is, in fact, what I think is being discussed most in this thread, while this concept of "radical honesty" is only being treated as a tangential subject.

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mixedmedia

Granted. If that is the case, I don't think radical honesty is being peddled in this thread.

I think the notion of radical honesty should also encompass being honest with yourself and knowing when you needn't open your mouth for the sake of anyone's growth or benefit.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cynthetiq

Agreed. But the avenue was explored and exhausted, next avenue.

some of it is parodied by Chopper telling people to harden the fuck up.



I'm with SM, the arguments of this thread isn't about the gotcha moments of seeing and understanding the middle ground of opening communication but seeing the "I'm fat" or "You're an asshole" extremes and settling into it there.

Again, I think that's the part of the edge that has been lost.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

To me this is where radical honesty would come into play and where it wouldn't.

For example.

You have an extremely overweight co-worker.

Radical honesty wouldn't 'demand' you say: 'I think you are grossly fat.'

You have an extremely overweight co-worker who complains women only want to be friends.

Radical honesty would be to say: 'Well you might have a chance if you lost 100 pounds and moved out of your parents house.'

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

abaya

Then it's really not so radical. It's the same old formula of communicating with "I feel" statements, which can be very effective (and is nothing new). You know, the good ol, "I feel X when you do Y behavior, can we talk about that?"... so that you take responsibility for your feelings, but also honestly address the root of it with the other person. The key thing is to never expect the other person to change, but at least make them aware of how their behavior is affecting you... which is fair 'nuff.

Yes, but why the heck would you even say this in the first place, unless that person asked you for advice on getting a chance?...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

And why couldn't you take the time to explain that some women find being a hundred pounds overweight unattractive, and that living in your parents house is considered by some to be a sign of emotional immaturity? There's nothing dishonest about it, but it sure as hell comes off a lot nicer, and a lot more constructive.

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Cynthetiq

QFT.

It doesn't do anyone any good to sit with the "key" information and hold it. Everything that individual opines to just say something like,"You've just not met the right one," is disingenuine.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Yes, but you're still assuming a question of, "Gee, why haven't I met anyone?"... which is fine and dandy to give honest advice if the question is asked, but if not... then no, I don't think it's anyone's place to just start giving opinions out of the blue.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

No, not making that assumption, that's why I posted the harden the fuck up vid, because it is in some ways exactly what we are talking about albeit thats a caricature.

Lots of people didn't ever learn to use the "I feel..." statements. It just never dawned on them or was not any socialization to learn it.

So what seems like common sense, isn't necessarily so common.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Ustwo

Who said you wouldn't? I didn't give a whole conversation now did I?

I do think being completely honest in the opening is the best way to get your point across.

Some people need to be hit by verbal 2*4's now and then to get the point.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

Some people do and some don't. That's why I think it's totally appropriate to gauge the situation you are in, including the sensitivities of and your familiarity with the person you are talking to. What is the sense of creating this dialogue if you shut it down before it even has a chance to turn into something productive?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ustwo

Well here is the rub.

You are 100% correct in that some people would get all defensive and not listen when directly confronted. The question is why? Is it inherent or is it a learned behavior?

I think much of it is learned. We as a society are not used to people speaking the whole truth. We expect to be cajoled, and coddled. We 'protest' offensive behavior by rolling our eyes, barely audible grunts, quick stares. Sure that mother might be letter her kid run all over the restaurant screaming, but no one says anything to her, they just give the 'vibe'.

We are told if you don't' have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.

This is what stifles growth and communication, but we get so offended if someone dares break what is practically a societal taboo of non-confrontation that we don't' know how to deal with it.

So lets take an imaginary person that would require you to beat around the bush for a good length of time to get to the real point of 'the reason no one likes to hang out with you is you have bad body oder'. Maybe coming out in telling him he stinks and needs to shower more isn't going to work, but what if everyone said that who was avoiding him? Would he ignore everyone?

What if people were used to honesty?

This is really an academic exercise, it would take years for a society to switch over to something like this and I can't foresee it happening. I do think it would be a nicer way to live though.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

mixedmedia

I understand and agree with you. Up to a point.

I don't see any difference other than spirit in the comments 'you have bad body odor' and 'you stink.' I think if everyone told him the former rather than the latter he would get the point just as effectively and without the mean-spirited jab that serves to invalidate him because he happens to have body odor.

Being that it is, indeed, an academic exercise I think a concept like radical honesty should only be implemented in a thoughtful way. Not in a dishonest or passive-aggressive way, but in a way that is meant to be productive and compassionate. I grieve for the lack of compassion that is being imported in with this idea. Very much.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

sapiens

Some opportunistic liar would come along and make a killing.

I can't see it happening either. Whenever I imagine such a society the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain" plays in my head. I think that such a world is impossible.

mixedmedia

I love that song.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

analog

To those who say he never asked for your opinion, I will grant you that.

But there comes a time when another person is using you (yes, they are using you) to sound-off on their wants and woes that there's a perfectly legitimate reason to give them some input back.

Yes, they may just have wanted a sympathetic ear- and if it happened once or twice, that's what it would be. But people like that are not likely to just say that once or twice, it's a common thread for them. By the time you've heard the same complaint 100 times, I believe any reasonable human being is deserving of weighing in, if only to make their relentless complaining stop.

mixedmedia

*I just realized that I totally fucked-up and edited analog's post #56 instead of quoting it and there's really nothing I can do about it now but apologize to analog, put my dunce cap on and go sit facing the corner.*

I'm sorry, analog.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Hey, nobody's perfect. Especially Analog.

ubertuber

Dude, I did that within about 10 seconds of becoming a mod. The buttons really should be farther apart.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam