Willravel

Heterosexual, bi-curious, bisexual, and homosexual. Oh and transgendered. And asexual. And those that choose not to label themselves.

So let's say you're a heterosexual male and you become friends with a homosexual female (if you're a lady reading this, switch the genders from here on in, please). Yes, it happens. You didn't become friends with this woman to "change" her or any other egotistical, chauvinistic bullshit, but simply because she's cool and you maybe have common interests and principles. In the normal course of friendship, occasionally boundaries can be broken. Maybe you go from friend to flirting, on instinct, and she reciprocates. Maybe she flirts first. The point is that you get the impression that she may not be totally homosexual and is showing a romantic, not just platonic, interest. And again it's not about ego or conquering or changing someone.

This seems very shaky ethical ground. You could play it safe/respectful and keep things at the friend level, and let the other stuff drop completely. You could test the water a bit, flirt more, ask questions, etc. You could dive in head-first and tell her that you may be developing romantic feelings and you think she might be developing the same feelings.

There are adequate arguments for each of these. Obviously not making any active movements on the subject is a sign that you respect her to understand who she is. Maybe you misinterpreted the flirting, it's happened before. The second seems equally safe, respecting her but also, in your role as friend, giving her an outside observation. The worst that could happen is the questions are too much and you move on to something else. The last, and arguably most controversial, would be about being honest about yourself, which is important in a friendship or a romantic relationship.

It's all very complicated, especially if you're not as acclimated with the idea of bisexuality and homosexuality. Recently, I found myself in a situation not totally unlike this and decided to simply bite my tongue. I've misread signals before and I value the friendship waaay too much to put it through that kind of awkwardness. I also truly respect her sexuality and feel that I wouldn't be acting consistently with that respect if I started "testing" her.

So what are your thoughts on the issue? Do you have any experience? Are you heterosexual and don't know? Are you bisexual or homosexual with any experience in this area? How would you react?

World's King

Will, no matter how many times you ask. I'm not switching teams for you.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

Strange Famous

I think the only ethics of dating/screwing are that it is best not to cheat, not to lie, and not to hurt people on purpose.

I think all gay people are open to the idea of being straight - its so much the culturally dominant position that you would have to be incredibly insular not to be.

I think the real issue is liking a friend a bit more than a friend, but not being sure how she feels, and not knowing whether to risk rejection and losing a friend... but if some kind of gener/sexual politics thing is a justification for you I think it cant hurt.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

grumpyolddude

I've seen it posted elsewhere that sexuality can be fluid for some people. Just because your friend has been same-sex exclusive up until now, doesn't mean that she could never be attracted to the right guy.

Of course, she could view your flirtatious play as simply goofing around with a friend she trusts not to take it all too seriously.

Are you content to relax and let her take the lead along these lines? Do you feel the need to resolve this?

__________________
"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

Willravel

I like being honest with my irl friends, almost to a fault (I used to have a problem with dishonesty, if we're being honest). Still, I'm not stupid, I know that every lesbian in the world has to put up with guys hitting on them out of ignorance or trying to convert them out of hubris. The last thing I want to do is become another one of those guys, especially with someone I'm good friends with.

I don't want this thread to be just about my situation, though. I was hoping this might be a good conversation in a broader sense. If I glean some enlightenment, super, but I hope others can, too.

Baraka_Guru

It's been hinted at already, but I agree that sexuality for some is broader than it is for others. Some identify with being straight, but have interests in bisexuality, while others identify as gay but may have bisexual tendencies as well. Others simply consider themselves bisexual but may prefer one sex over the other when it comes to long-term relationships.

As for ethics, you only break human decency when you attempt to pressure someone into being something they aren't. You can fall into this trap by making assumptions and by being covert about your own intentions. Honesty is the best policy in things such as this.

I sincerely doubt all gay people are open to being straight. By that same token, it's like saying all straight people are open to being gay based on curiosity and recent cultural phenomenon and openness about homosexuality (not to mention that in some contexts and communities it's "cool" or "fashionable" to be gay). It simply isn't true.

This is not to say that some who identify as being gay aren't interested in being straight or may want to be straight, but this can be either a healthy thing or an unhealthy thing. If you are gay and hate the idea of it because of cultural pressure, this is probably a bad thing. I can't see gays typically being open to becoming straight just because it's culturally dominant to be that way. From what I've seen, many gays are quite happy being a part of their own community. "Straightness" doesn't seem to be much of a factor. Being gay isn't a choice any more than being straight is a choice.

Are you open to the idea of being gay?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

I'd never intentionally pressure someone to be what they're not (except for extreme cases, like a violent racist about to hurt a black guy), but this is an area where there may be unknown unknowns. I don't want to make assumptions on the one hand, but on the other hand I've known folks that did change teams or that went from heterosexual/homosexual to bisexual.

For the time being, I'm okay simply dismissing this as mixed signals and getting back to the status quo. I'm more than willing to admit there are aspects of other people's sexuality that I may never understand, and it's not my place to make assumptions of any kind.
If I may interject for a second, have you ever spent even a moment considering whether or not you may be bisexual? I don't think that's abnormal for a heterosexual and doesn't necessarily make you bisexual or even bi-curoious. I asked myself that question when I was maybe 16 or 17 because I had my first friend that happened to by gay. After I honestly considered it, I reaffirmed my heterosexuality and moved on. I've never been sexually attracted to a man and I'm consistently sexually attracted to women. If, however, upon consideration I realized that I might be attracted to men, I would have probably been happier in the long run.

Maybe Strange, and everyone else for that matter, should in the most honest way possible ask that difficult question of him or herself. Just in case. The last thing you want to do is live a lie. Hopefully.

YellowBird

I was messing around with a girl for a number or months, even a year and the whole time she dead set claimed she was straight, even to me and her other close friends. She's since changed that and no longer gives herself a label. I've got to a point where I'm reasonably happy to call myself bisexual. and I met a lovely girl the other day


I think convincing reasonably liberal straight people to mess around with the same sex is very different to a gay person doing the same thing because they're already been through the struggle of working out what their sexual identity is and are comfortable with it.

Baraka_Guru

I think everyone has considered their sexuality, whether consciously or subconsciously. I don't think we simply "default" to purely heterosexual or purely homosexual and be done with it, only to have the picture muddled as we experience life.

I think it's difficult, however, to end up living against your sexual orientation based on cultural conditioning. Gay parents don't make gay children. You can't catch gay, and all that. So how could one become straight if they were already gay? Homosexuality occurs in children. It's not simply something that pops up in puberty and beyond.

There are, of course, cases where people hide their sexuality. Closeted gays, I imagine, could find themselves in a position where they are fooling not only others, but themselves.

The way Strange framed the issue seemed to imply that gays can simply consider switching teams based on peer pressure or other cultural pressures. But it's not like they chose to be gay.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

seamaiden

I'm a straight woman, although I state that with some hesitation. I have been sexually attracted to a couple of women in my life. I've never had sex with a woman, but if a friendship had developed with these woman (in the past) I think it could have turned sexual if the attraction was mutual.

I'm not sure about the ethics issue, with regards to tempting someone to switch teams. If you're friends with this person, and express your attraction to her, I can't see how she would find it offensive. She may find your honesty endearing, even if she didn't feel the same way about you. If your hit on a woman, just because you know she's a lesbian and think it would be hot to fuck her, then you're a jerk.

Xerxys

Will, you should stop watching the L word.

Zeraph

Since we can all make our own choices I don't see much difference in approaching someone regardless of sexuality. I'm not really sure what you mean by 'tempt' as trying to force an agreeable partner is just as bad as doing it to a disagreeable one.

...unless you're a super scientist with a pheromone love potion...

Willravel

I've been meaning to watch that, actually, but I don't really have time. Looks like it's not on anymore.

loquitur

I don't see any issue with responding to overtures. I do have an issue with invading someone else's psychic space. If she defined herself as lesbian then you're not being fair to her by hitting on her. If you are feeling sexual tension and it's difficult to handle being near her, then if you have a relatinship that enables you to discuss it, do that, and if not, you need to step back. But if you're both feeling an attraction, then she's more likely to have bi feelings than totally lesbian, and if she's ok with seeing where it goes, and you're interested, too, then go for it.

GreyWolf

It all depends on your approach. Just because a woman is a lesbian, doesn't mean that I, as a straight guy, can't appreciate her beauty and sexuality. If I compliment her on her that and it offends her, then that is HER problem. If that compliment makes her feel any sort of good will towards me, then it's not an issue. Same with a gay guy.

Accidentally hitting on someone whose orientation doesn't include your own sex happens, and there's nothing wrong with that if you don't persist once being rejected. If an other-oriented friend/acquaintance expresses some interest (directly or more subtly), then it's just mutual attraction. How far it goes is like any other relationship... but you have to know when you've reached the boundary. It helps to be particularly sensitive if you know this may not be SOP for the other party.

Deliberately setting out to try and seduce someone who is not interested due to their orientation is malicious, and if you're successful, could cost you a friend and possibly do some real emotional damage to the other person.

__________________
The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

snowy

If a person is truly homosexual, with little to no attraction to the opposite sex, then "tempting" is really the wrong word to use. I know a number of lesbians who enjoy being friends with men, but the thought of heterosexual sex just gives them the heebie jeebies, so you're not going to tempt them with anything you have on offer. Sorry.

I think it's unlikely if a person is truly a homosexual to persuade them to somehow change teams. While sexuality is fluid for some people, it really isn't for most people. Think about it. While this situation may be every heterosexual man's fantasy, what is the likelihood that any of you heterosexual men would turn homosexual? Given the previous responses, the number looks to be zero.

All I ask of you gents is to respect homosexuality as a valid orientation, one that occurs regardless of choice, and when you think you can "tempt" a lesbian, that isn't being very respectful. And please, don't turn yourselves into homo puppy dogs. I see that often--the straight friend in love with the homosexual who follows them around like a lapdog. My college roommate did it. And watch out for lesbians looking for a male lapdog--a friend of my SO's from high school loves doing this to men because it fucks with their heads. It isn't nice, but then, what they are doing (trying to do stuff for her to get in her pants) isn't very nice to her.

So watch yourselves, and remember, it's up to the person to evaluate and change their sexual orientation, not you.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Plan9

Rollins-style "L-Word" Rant:

Never stop watching the L-word, bro. It's not just another symbol you've learned to "reinforce the lie." If you use the words right, they don't use you.

...

Who doesn't wanna seduce a lesbian? They wear sensible shoes and don't waste time with hair/nails/dress. They're the perfect drinking companion.

...

OP: WillRavel having a Xerxys moment.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

:shrug: It's not like you are pushing her to try crystal meth. I see no ethics violations at all in this. There is no "fidelity" associated with sexual preference.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Plan9

Calling sexual preference "a choice" is incredibly myopic. I wouldn't respect a homosexual for their "choice" as its not something they picked when they were sitting on the playground in 3rd grade. [...college muffdiving optional...] I really wish everybody would stop treating individual gays as a special fragile class of human beings that must somehow have wildly different biology and psychology involved. They're just another bunch of hoo-munz.

No, but it's awkward as all get-out. Dude, imagine the convo:

"Hey, I know you've never been with a guy before... but I, uh, I think we should fuck. You're hot. Consider the overwhelming novelty factor."

Nothing says male pig more than trying to fuck everything female, regardless of whether or not it is heterosexual friendly.

...

Newsflash to guys everywhere: Unless you're a lawyer, you can't fuck everything.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cynthetiq

what is there ethics involved? If someone is interested in you and you aren't interested in them and they continue, isn't that just them not getting the hint? Isn't it not much different then unrequited love?

Put a sexuality tendency in there, how is that any different?

If they aren't into you they aren't into you. plain and simple.

you injecting ethics into the mix seems to remove the whole idea that the other individual has a choice. This isn't much different than continually propositioning a person who is married, engaged, or has a bf or g/f.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

SecretMethod70

Quoted for mother-fucking truth. (Minus the "choice" part - I agree homosexuality, in the large majority of instances, is not a choice.)

---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 PM ----------

That too.

"Tempting someone to switch teams," which implies they aren't already interested in you, just makes you a sleazeball who doesn't know how to take "no" for an answer. If the person has already expressed an interest in you, but is reluctant because they previously identified as homosexual, then no one is tempting anyone. That person is merely dealing with a new dimension of their sexuality.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

Not necessarily. Sexuality isn't by any means a simple thing for everyone.
I think we have a different interpretation of temptation. If this person is dealing with a new dimension of her sexuality, any nudging could be helpful or it could be harmful. If the dimension isn't bisexuality, nudging someone toward bisexuality would be counter to their sexual nature. If the dimension is bisexuality, nudging someone toward bisexuality could be assisting someone in finding themselves. That's what the whole thread is about. This is far from a black and white issue.

Plan9

Nudging = sexual assault? What are you getting at here? The personal motivation still seems all like its get-some-mud-for-your-turtle.

This is perhaps the most confusing thread I've read since Host left.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

Personally, I dont think so.

But if I lived in a society where male homosexuality was considered was considered normal and anything else as a deviation (even if a more acceptable one that it once was) I am sure I would feel conflicted - even if my natural feelings were heterosexual, I would also most likely feel a yearning to be "normal"

I suspect that this is what most male homosexuals feel at some times in their lives. A conflict between their natural feelings, and what societal pressure says is normal and correct.

_

In any case, lesbianism is rather different to male homosexuality

The male homosexual performs a sexual act with his partner

The female lesbian really may only perform what me might call intense foreplay... a lesbian cannot have sex with another woman in the real sense of the word.

For lesbian women this must make the idea of being with a man doubly compelling even if they dont have a natural attraction to the male - on the one the societal pressure to conform, and on the other hand the fact they can only truly have sex with a man.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

No, I don't rape lesbians.

It's about not ruining a good friendship, in my case, but in a wider sense it's about understanding sexuality.

Plan9

Are we really arguing sexual semantics? I feel like I'm dealing with President Clinton here. Is this the 1950s legal definition of sex? C'mon, man. The lack of a penis doesn't change the setup of the wetware, bro. Just because a gay guy has a wang and a lesbian doesn't... doesn't mean anything behind the eyes. I'd imagine the urges and acts are very similar. Love saber or a hot pocket... completely irrelevant to the hetero/homo debate.

Of course, we're mostly hetero males in here talking about homo females. I'm sure we're all subject matter experts. Pfft.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

I dont agree Plan9.

Yes, heterosexuals and homosexuals of either gender are likely to have similar passions - but isnt the basic animal desire to fuck, or be fucked?

For two women this is impossible (even if one of them uses some kind of device it is an act of simulation at best)

Its true I am not a lesbian woman... but I imagine it must create a sense of conflict - to have no sexual or physical attraction to the male, but the same old animal lust must be smouldering somewhere. A man CAN fuck another man, after all... so the homosexual male must only deal with the pressure of society if their sexual feelings really are in that manner.

I think this is the reason there are far more homosexual men than truly homosexual women, and far more bisexual women than bisexual men... a homosexual man can find full sexual satisfaction with another man if he is only attracted to men. A true lesbian must be in some sense asexual.

(in fact, I am unsure that the bisexual male exists at all... other than people in certain cultural situations who claim to be bisexual, but only in the hearing of women they want to bed)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Plan9

Universal definition of "fuck." Animal lust. Fuck defined again. More than / less than. Bisexual pop culture phenomena.

...

... do you have any statistics to back this up or are you just referencing what you've seen via TeeVee?

The gut feelings of heterosexual white males are probably responsible for all sorts of epic fuck-ups.

I don't wanna be a data dick, but it really is relevant in this case.

...

I would ask the appropriate party about their feelings on the topic... but that would be rather rude.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

snowy

Yeah, I hadn't had much coffee yet, so the wording there ought to be changed; I don't believe homosexuality is a choice either, thus the point of the whole post.

Let's put this another way--how would you like it if a homosexual friend was trying to nudge you towards homosexuality? It would be annoying and possibly offensive, right? Well, it works the other way too.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Plan9

Hell, I'm still confused at the misogynistic "only dicks can fuck" part.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Strange Famous

misogynistic meaning the hatrid of women?

Not sure I follow how you connect my views to that. It is well known that I am an ardent feminist.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Strange: misogyny isn't just about hating women. What's well-known is that you feel a desire and need to protect women, and view sexuality through an extremely rigid lens. That's not feminism - first, second, or third wave. You rather clearly feel that women are generally innocent and dainty creatures who need the protection of big strong men, and that is most definitely misogynistic. It's about as feminist as any male with stereotypical 1950's sensibilities, which is to say not at all. Most of us here, however, have given up trying to get through to you when it comes to women and sexuality. Otherwise, you're not a bad guy

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Plan9

Never send a Plan9 to do a SecretMethod's job.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Woah, some giant leaps have occurred in the hours I was away....

Lesbians can't fuck/have sex, eh? You should try telling that to them to hear what they say.

Is that why, deep down inside, they just want a dick inside them? And this is because they cannot be sexually satisfied without one?

Ahem. Okay.

This really trivializes this whole discussion. It assumes that the only healthy and fulfilling sexual relationship involves a cock.

Maybe homosexuality doesn't even exist.

Strange, I can't believe you even remotely associate yourself with feminism, because I sincerely doubt it wants to associate with your ideas.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

My feminism isnt the point of this thread in any case.

Sex in the real sense means penetration... which is something someone without a cock can only simulate. Women who are ONLY lesbian may well be satisfied with their lives, but it is only possible if they have very low sex drives.

In the case in point, if Will tries his luck his chances of a one night stand are probably quite good. The chances of a lasting relationship with someone who isnt attracted to men is probably quite poor. But alot of people are confused about their sexuality - a lot of people might have experiences that make them think they are one way, and then meet someone that changes their feelings.

My mother, for example, was married for 20 years and when my father left her she decided she was gay. Is she truly lesbian, and was she truly heterosexual the 20 years (and 3 kids) previous? Its hard to believe in that.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

YellowBird

ok. You're wrong.

Having said that, is there any lesbians on this forum who would be willing to contribute their opinion, While I have no intention of being rude or insensitive and am purely curious, I would really like to know how they define "sex".

I've been with guy and girls and I really enjoy both, but sometime I do miss the penis when I with another women. But women can be kind of amazing. *goes to happy place*

Baraka_Guru

I'm sorry, but this has to be a joke. Haven't you heard of fisting?

A happy lesbian is a sexually dysfunctional lesbian. Nice.

So Will's chance of having sex with a lesbian is quite good simply because he has a cock and deep down inside even lesbians want the cock?

Your mother's case isn't unique. Quite often in cases such as these, what had happened was the individual didn't understand or were ashamed of their sexuality and tried very hard to be "normal." After the '80s, it started to become more socially acceptable to "come out," and so many of these individuals decided to stop living a lie and do just that. Had you ever spoken to your mother about this? I'd find it hard to believe that she wasn't at least bisexual her whole life.

My ultimate point is, the whole idea of converting gays is ridiculous to me. I thought we were past this as a society. I don't imagine there are many gay men who get it into their heads to convert straight men. They might, sure, but I think it's just as ridiculous. I don't care how much I might like a man, if he wanted to convert me to homosexuality, he'd have a difficult time of it.

And you should meet some of the lesbians I know. I think "the cock" is one of the last things on their minds.

If anything, this whole idea should be reserved for those who truly are bisexual.

Not everyone is bisexual.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Despite rumors to the contrary and despite the pure magnificence of my member, not everyone wants my cock. I hope this news isn't as devastating to anyone else as it was to me.

Strange Famous

"fisting"? I am talking about things that happen in reality, not in revolting pornographic films.

Not everyone needs an active sex life to be happy, and I am sure many lesbians can be satisfied with the simulation of activities that can take place between two women, for some romantic love or physical attraction - which they find in another woman - may be more important than raw sex.

I dont think that every lesbian "wants cock" - but I do believe that true intercourse cannot take place without one.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Cimarron29414

Will, has this friend EVER been with a guy before?

The reason I ask is this: it could be possible that this friend is curious but is looking for a safe environment to explore - a place where curiosities could be satisfied without the complications of being with someone who has long term expectations. Perhaps, those are the signals you are reading from her. Perhaps she sees in you someone who could handle that exploration and take it only for what it was - curiosity. I can envision a conversation that would get to the bottom of the flirtation, offer the opportunity for safely exploring the other side, and still framing it a way as not to offend. I wouldn't go so far as to say you would be doing her a favor, but in truth, how many people get to check out the other grass without leaving their side?

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."