Is pornography adultery? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

UKking · 09-16-2008, 07:53 AM

Well, this has got to be one of the best articles I've ever read. Though at the end there's a distinctive platform and point, the writer exhaustively illustrates both sides of the argument, in it's different facets, repeatedly. Lots and lots of compelling points.

Quote:

The marriage of Christie Brinkley and Peter Cook collapsed the old-fashioned way in 2006, when she discovered that he was sleeping with his 18-year-old assistant. But their divorce trial this summer was a distinctly Internet-age affair. Having insisted on keeping the proceedings open to the media, Brinkley and her lawyers served up a long list of juicy allegations about Cook’s taste in online porn: the $3,000 a month he dropped on adult Web sites, the nude photos he posted online, the user names he favored (“happyladdie2002,” for instance, and “wannaseeall”) while surfing swinger sites, even the videos he supposedly made of himself masturbating.

Perhaps the most interesting thing about the porn-related revelations, though, was the ambiguity about what line, precisely, Cook was accused of having crossed. Was the porn habit a betrayal in and of itself? Was it the financial irresponsibility that mattered most, or the addictive behavior it suggested? Was it the way his habit had segued into other online activities? Or was it about Cook’s fitness as a parent, and the possibility that their son had stumbled upon his porn cache? Clearly, the court and the public were supposed to think that Cook was an even lousier husband than his affair with a teenager might have indicated. But it was considerably less clear whether the porn habit itself was supposed to prove this, or whether it was the particulars—the monthly bill, the swinger sites, the webcam, the danger to the kids—that made the difference.

The notion that pornography, and especially hard-core pornography, has something to do with marital infidelity has been floating around the edges of the American conversation for a while now, even as the porn industry, by some estimates, has swollen to rival professional sports and the major broadcast networks as a revenue-generating source of entertainment. A 2002 survey of the American Academy of Matriomgmonial Lawyers suggests that Internet porn plays a part in an increasing number of divorce cases, and the Brinkley-Cook divorce wasn’t the first celebrity split to feature porn-related revelations. In 2005, at the start of their messy divorce, Denise Richards accused Charlie Sheen of posting shots of his genitalia online and cultivating a taste for “barely legal” porn sites. Two years later, Anne Heche, Ellen DeGeneres’s ex, accused her non-celeb husband of surfing porn sites when he was supposed to be taking care of their 5-year-old son. The country singer Sara Evans’s 2006 divorce involved similar allegations, including the claim that her husband had collected 100 nude photographs of himself and solicited sex online.

But the attention paid to the connection between porn and infidelity doesn’t translate into anything like a consensus on what that connection is. Polls show that Americans are almost evenly divided on questions like whether porn is bad for relationships, whether it’s an inevitable feature of male existence, and whether it’s demeaning to women. This divide tends to cut along gender lines, inevitably: women are more likely to look at pornography than in the past, but they remain considerably more hostile to porn than men are, and considerably less likely to make use of it. (Even among the Internet generation, the split between the sexes remains stark. A survey of American college students last year found that 70 percent of the women in the sample never looked at pornography, compared with just 14 percent of their male peers; almost half of the men surveyed looked at porn at least once a week, versus just 3 percent of the women.)

One perspective, broadly construed, treats porn as a harmless habit, near-universal among men, and at worst a little silly. This is the viewpoint that’s transformed adult-industry icons like Jenna Jameson and Ron Jeremy from targets of opprobrium into C-list celebrities. It’s what inspires fledgling stars to gin up sex tapes in the hope of boosting their careers. And it’s made smut a staple of gross-out comedy: rising-star funnyman Seth Rogen has gone from headlining Judd Apatow’s Knocked Up, in which his character’s aspiration to run a pornographic Web site was somewhat incidental to the plot, to starring in Kevin Smith’s forthcoming Zack and Miri Make a Porno, in which the porn business promises to be rather more central.

A second perspective treats porn as a kind of gateway drug—a vice that paves the way for more-serious betrayals. A 2004 study found that married individuals who cheated on their spouses were three times as likely to have used Internet pornography as married people who hadn’t committed adultery. In Tom Perrotta’s bestselling Little Children, the female protagonist’s husband—who is himself being cuckolded—progresses from obsessing over an online porn star named “Slutty Kay” to sending away for her panties to joining a club of fans who pay to vacation with her in person. Brinkomgley’s husband may have followed a similar trajectory, along with many of the other porn-happy celebrity spouses who’ve featured in the gossip pages and divorce courts lately.

Maybe it’s worth sharpening the debate. Over the past three decades, the VCR, on-demand cable service, and the Internet have completely overhauled the ways in which people interact with porn. Innovation has piled on innovation, making modern pornography a more immediate, visceral, and personalized experience. Nothing in the long history of erotica compares with the way millions of Americans experience porn today, and our moral intuitions are struggling to catch up. As we try to make sense of the brave new world that VHS and streaming video have built, we might start by asking a radical question: Is pornography use a form of adultery?

The most stringent take on this matter comes, of course, from Jesus of Nazareth: “I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” But even among Christians, this teaching tends to be grouped with the Gospel injunctions about turning the other cheek and giving would-be robbers your possessions—as a guideline for saintliness, useful to Francis of Assisi and the Desert Fathers but less helpful to ordinary sinners trying to figure out what counts as a breach of marital trust. Jimmy Carter’s confession to Playboy that he had “lusted in [his] heart” still inspires giggles three decades later. Most Americans, devout or secular, are inclined to distinguish lustful thoughts from lustful actions, and hew to the Merriam-Webster definition of adultery as “voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband.”

On the face of things, this definition would seem to let porn users off the hook. Intercourse, after all, involves physicality, a flesh-and-blood encounter that Internet Explorer and the DVD player can’t provide, no matter what sort of adultery the user happens to be committing in his heart.

But there’s another way to look at it. During the long, late-winter week that transformed the governor of New York, Eliot Spitzer, into an alleged john, a late-night punch line, and finally an ex-governor, there was a lively debate on blogs and radio shows and op-ed pages about whether prostitution ought to be illegal at all. Yet amid all the chatter about whether the FBI should have cared about Spitzer’s habit of paying for extramarital sex, next to nobody suggested, publicly at least, that his wife ought not to care—that Silda Spitzer ought to have been grateful he was seeking only sexual gratification elsewhere, and that so long as he was loyal to her in his mind and heart, it shouldn’t matter what he did with his penis.

Start with the near-universal assumption that what Spitzer did in his hotel room constituted adultery, and then ponder whether Silda Spitzer would have had cause to feel betrayed if the FBI probe had revealed that her husband had paid merely to watch a prostitute perform sexual acts while he folded himself into a hotel armchair to masturbate. My suspicion is that an awful lot of people would say yes—not because there isn’t some distinction between the two acts, but because the distinction isn’t morally significant enough to prevent both from belonging to the zone, broadly defined, of cheating on your wife.

You can see where I’m going with this. If it’s cheating on your wife to watch while another woman performs sexually in front of you, then why isn’t it cheating to watch while the same sort of spectacle unfolds on your laptop or TV? Isn’t the man who uses hard-core pornography already betraying his wife, whether or not the habit leads to anything worse? (The same goes, of course, for a wife betraying her husband—the arguments in this essay should be assumed to apply as well to the small minority of women who use porn.)

Fine, you might respond, but there are betrayals and then there are betrayals. The man who lets his eyes stray across the photo of Gisele Bündchen, bare-assed and beguiling on the cover of GQ, has betrayed his wife in some sense, but only a 21st-century Savonarola would describe that sort of thing as adultery. The line that matters is the one between fantasy and reality—between the call girl who’s really there having sex with you, and the porn star who’s selling the image of herself having sex to a host of men she’ll never even meet. In this reading, porn is “a fictional, fantastical, even allegorical realm,” as the cultural critic Laura Kipnis described it in the mid-1990s—“mythological and hyperbolic” rather than realistic, and experienced not as a form of intercourse but as a “popular-culture genre,” like true crime or science fiction.

This seems like a potentially reasonable distinction to draw. But the fantasy-versus-reality, pixels-versus-flesh binary feels more appropriate to the pre-Internet landscape than to one where people spend hours every day in entirely virtual worlds, whether they’re accumulating “friends” on Facebook, acting out Tolkienesque fantasies in World of Warcraft, or flirting with a sexy avatar in Second Life. And it feels much more appropriate to the tamer sorts of pornography, from the increasingly archaic (dirty playing cards and pinups, smutty books and the Penthouse letters section) to the of-the-moment (the topless photos and sex-scene stills in the more restrained precincts of the online pornosphere), than it does to the harder-core material at the heart of the porn economy. Masturbating to a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model (like Christie Brinkley, once upon a time) or a Playboy centerfold is a one-way street: the images are intended to provoke fantasies, not to embody reality, since the women pictured aren’t having sex for the viewer’s gratification. Even strippers, for all their flesh-and-blood appeal, are essentially fantasy objects—depending on how you respond to a lap dance, of course. But hard-core pornography is real sex by definition, and the two sexual acts involved—the on-camera copulation, and the masturbation it enables—are interdependent: neither would happen without the other. The whole point of a centerfold is her unattainability, but with hard-core porn, it’s precisely the reverse: the star isn’t just attainable, she’s already being attained, and the user gets to be in on the action.

Moreover, the way the porn industry is evolving reflects the extent to which the Internet subverts the fantasy-reality dichotomy. After years of booming profits, the “mainstream” porn studios are increasingly losing ground to start-ups and freelancers—people making sex videos on their beds and sofas and shag carpeting and uploading them on the cheap. It turns out that, increasingly, Americans don’t want porn as a “kind of science fiction,” as Kipnis put it—they want realistic porn, porn that resembles the sex they might be having, and porn that at every moment holds out the promise that they can join in, like Peter Cook masturbating in front of his webcam.

So yes, there’s an obvious line between leafing through a Playboy and pulling a Spitzer on your wife. But the line between Spitzer and the suburban husband who pays $29.95 a month to stream hard-core sex onto his laptop is considerably blurrier. The suburbanite with the hard-core porn hookup is masturbating to real sex, albeit at a DSL-enabled remove. He’s experiencing it in an intimate setting, rather than in a grind house alongside other huddled masturbators in raincoats, and in a form that’s customized to his tastes in a way that mass-market porn like Deep Throat and Debbie Does Dallas never was. There’s no emotional connection, true—but there presumably wasn’t one on Spitzer’s part, either.

This isn’t to say the distinction between hiring a prostitute and shelling out for online porn doesn’t matter; in moral issues, every distinction matters. But if you approach infidelity as a continuum of betrayal rather than an either/or proposition, then the Internet era has ratcheted the experience of pornography much closer to adultery than I suspect most porn users would like to admit.

It’s possible, of course, to consider hard-core porn use a kind of infidelity and shrug it off even so. After all, human societies have frequently made sweeping accommodations for extramarital dalliances, usually on the assumption that the male libido simply can’t be expected to submit to monogamy. When apologists for pornography aren’t making Kipnis-style appeals to cultural transgression and sexual imagination, they tend to fall back on the defense that it’s pointless to moralize about porn, because men are going to use it anyway.

Here’s Dan Savage, the popular Seattle-based sex columnist, responding to a reader who fretted about her boyfriend’s porn habit—“not because I’m jealous,” she wrote, “but because I’m insecure. I’m sure many of those girls are more attractive than me”:

All men look at porn … The handful of men who claim they don’t look at porn are liars or castrates. Tearful discussions about your insecurities or your feminist principles will not stop a man from looking at porn. That’s why the best advice for straight women is this: GET OVER IT. If you don’t want to be with someone who looks at porn … get a woman, get a dog, or get a blind guy … While men shouldn’t rub their female partners’ noses in the fact that they look at porn—that’s just inconsiderate—telling women that the porn “problem” can be resolved through good communication, couples counseling, or a chat with your pastor is neither helpful nor realistic.

Savage’s perspective is hardly unique, and is found among women as well as men. In 2003, three psychology professors at Illinois State University surveyed a broad population of women who were, or had been, in a relationship with a man who they knew used pornography. About a third of the women described the porn habit as a form of betrayal and infidelity. But the majority were neutral or even positively disposed to their lover’s taste for smut, responding slightly more favorably than not to prompts like “I do not mind my partner’s pornography use” or “My partner’s pornography use is perfectly normal.”

This point of view—that looking at pornography is a “perfectly normal” activity, one that the more-judgmental third of women need to just stop whining about—has been strengthened by the erosion of the second-order arguments against the use of porn, especially the argument that it feeds misogyny and encourages rape. In the great porn debates of the 1980s, arguments linking porn to violence against women were advanced across the ideological spectrum. Feminist crusaders like Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon denounced smut as a weapon of the patriarchy; the Christian radio psychologist (and future religious-right fixture) James Dobson induced the serial killer Ted Bundy to confess on death row to a pornography addiction; the Meese Commission on Pornography declared, “In both clinical and experimental settings, exposure to sexually violent materials has indicated an increase in the likelihood of aggression.” It all sounded plausible—but between 1980 and 2004, an era in which porn became more available, and in more varieties, the rate of reported sexual violence dropped, and by 85 percent. Correlation isn’t necessarily causation, but the sharpness of the decline at least suggests that porn may reduce sexual violence, by providing an outlet for some potential sex offenders. (Indeed, the best way to deter a rapist might be to hook him up with a high-speed Internet connection: in a 2006 study, the Clemson economist Todd Kendall found that a 10 percent increase in Internet access is associated with a 7 percent decline in reported rapes.)

And what’s true of rapists could be true of ordinary married men, a porn apologist might argue. For every Peter Cook, using porn and sleeping around, there might be countless men who use porn as a substitute for extramarital dalliances, satisfying their need for sexual variety without hiring a prostitute or kicking off a workplace romance.

Like Philip Weiss’s friends, for instance. In the wake of the Spitzer affair, Weiss, a New York–based investigative journalist, came closer than any mainstream writer to endorsing not only the legalization of prostitution but the destigmatization of infidelity, in a rambling essay for New York magazine on the agonies that monogamy imposes on his buddies. Amid nostalgia for the days of courtesans and concubines and the usual plaints about how much more sophisticated things are in Europe, Weiss depicted porn as the modern man’s “common answer” to the marital-sex deficit. Here’s one of his pals dilating on his online outlets:

“Porn captures these women [its performers] before they get smart,” he said in a hot whisper as we sat in Schiller’s Liquor Bar on the Lower East Side. Porn exploited the sexual desires, and naïveté, of women in their early twenties, he went on … He spoke of acts he observed online that his wife wouldn’t do. “It’s painful to say, but that’s your boys’ night out, and it takes an enlightened woman to say that.”

The use of the term enlightened is telling, since the strongest argument for the acceptance of pornography—and the hard-core variety in particular—is precisely that it represents a form of sexual progress, a more civilized approach to the problem of the male libido than either the toleration of mass prostitution or the attempt, from the Victorian era onward, to simultaneously legislate prostitution away and hold married couples to an unreasonably high standard of fidelity. Porn may be an evil, this argument goes, but it’s the least of several evils. The man who uses porn is cheating sexually, but he isn’t involving himself in an emotional relationship. He’s cheating in a way that carries none of the risks of intercourse, from pregnancy to venereal disease. And he’s cheating with women who may be trading sex for money, but are doing so in vastly safer situations than streetwalkers or even high-end escorts.

Indeed, in a significant sense, the porn industry looks like what advocates of legalized prostitution hope to achieve for “sex workers.” There are no bullying pimps and no police officers demanding sex in return for not putting the prostitutes in jail. There are regular tests for STDs, at least in the higher-end sectors of the industry. The performers are safely separated from their johns. And freelancers aren’t wandering downtown intersections on their own; they’re filming from the friendly confines of their homes.

If we would just accept Dan Savage’s advice, then, and get over it, everyone would gain something. Weiss and his pals could have their “boys’ night out” online and enjoy sexual experiences that their marriages deny them. The majority of wives could rest secure in the knowledge that worse forms of infidelity are being averted; some women could get into the act themselves, either solo or with their spouse, experiencing the thrill of a threesome or a ’70s key party with fewer of the consequences. The porn industry’s sex workers could earn a steady paycheck without worrying about pimps, police, or HIV. Every society lives with infidelity in one form or another, whether openly or hypocritically. Why shouldn’t we learn to live with porn?

Live with it we almost certainly will. But it’s worth being clear about what we’re accepting. Yes, adultery is inevitable, but it’s never been universal in the way that pornography has the potential to become—at least if we approach the use of hard-core porn as a normal outlet from the rigors of monogamy, and invest ourselves in a cultural paradigm that understands this as something all men do and all women need to live with. In the name of providing a low-risk alternative for males who would otherwise be tempted by “real” prostitutes and “real” affairs, we’re ultimately universalizing, in a milder but not all that much milder form, the sort of degradation and betrayal that only a minority of men have traditionally been involved in.

Go back to Philip Weiss’s pal and listen to him talk: Porn captures these women before they get smart … It’s painful to say, but that’s your boys’ night out. This is the language of a man who has accepted, not as a temporary lapse but as a permanent and necessary aspect of his married life, a paid sexual relationship with women other than his wife. And it’s the language of a man who has internalized a view of marriage as a sexual prison, rendered bearable only by frequent online furloughs with women more easily exploited than his spouse.

Calling porn a form of adultery isn’t about pretending that we can make it disappear. The temptation will always be there, and of course people will give in to it. I’ve looked at porn; if you’re male and breathing, chances are so have you. Rather, it’s about what sort of people we aspire to be: how we define our ideals, how we draw the lines in our relationships, and how we feel about ourselves if we cross them. And it’s about providing a way for everyone involved, men and women alike—whether they’re using porn or merely tolerating it—to think about what, precisely, they’re involving themselves in, and whether they should reconsider.

The extremes of anti-porn hysteria are unhelpful in this debate. If the turn toward an “everybody does it” approach to pornography and marriage is wrong, it’s because that approach is wrong in and of itself, not because porn is going to wreck society, destroy the institution of marriage, and turn thousands of rapists loose to prey on unsuspecting women. Smut isn’t going to bring down Western Civilization any more than Nero’s orgies actually led to the fall of Rome, and a society that expects near-universal online infidelity may run just as smoothly as a society that doesn’t.

Which is precisely why it’s so easy to say that the spread of pornography means that we’re just taking a turn, where sex and fidelity are concerned, toward realism, toward adulthood, toward sophistication. All we have to give up to get there is our sense of decency.

Is Pornography Adultery?

The writer illustrates(among other things) that western society, especially America, has been putting off this issue. Its become more pressing as technology makes pr0n more commonplace, serving in part to saturate our culture with its presence. You gotta figure things will end up coming to a head at this rate, socially, since it's mildly offensive to many people's values, or even blatantly threatening some as well.

I am really interested in your thoughts on the issue.........
Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it?
Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant?
Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable?
Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair?
Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better?
Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally?
Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same?
Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil?
Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends?

But, by all means, don't limit your thoughts to just those issues...

I think the viewing of pornography can be a completely healthy thing. Of course, it varies by person. You can learn some more creative things to do, share it with your partner, etc.

Is it adultery? Possibly. If you're watching more porn than being intimate with your S/O and it becomes a replacement, then yes.

However, I don't believe that pornography is appropriate for, let's say, teenage kids because if they haven't had a sexual relationship yet, then they seem to believe that sex should be like what they see on the Internet and such.

It's rather disappointing that the U.S. is so freaked out about sexual freedom and censorship and such.

PonyPotato · 09-16-2008, 08:54 AM

Personally, I tend to have problems with porn. I don't appreciate it as "innocent fun" and I do subscribe to the idea that it can be a form of infidelity.

Most of the people on TFP will call me a prude or insecure with that admission (as I'm sure you've seen, there are plenty of threads about porn and telling women to "get over it, men are visual, it's harmless, it's normal").

My thought is thus: How can you truly commit to monogamy or a monogamous relationship if you fantasize about fucking other people on a regular basis? I hear the argument that "it gets the need to have multiple partners out of the system," but what I want to know is WHY that is considered a "need."

In my mind, if a person is truly committed to monogamy and wants fantasy/masturbatory material, they should seek out photos/video of their partner, not another person who is photographed because he/she meets societal ideals of a sexual object.

I may end up deleting/editing this post down later, but this is my thought process when it comes to porn. I just don't like it being present in a relationship, especially a sexually active, committed one where both individuals live together.

*Note - I am not addressing people in open relationships, polyamorous relationships, or relationships in which partners have not committed to being monogamous.

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

but what I want to know is WHY that is considered a "need."

Biology.

PonyPotato · 09-16-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Biology.

Sorry, but I'm an anthropologist. I call that answer bullshit.

Homo sapiens is a social species with pair-bonding. Couples raise children together to increase their biological fitness. We are not a species like mice - cover the most females and increase your biological fitness.

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 09:18 AM

Call it what you want, that's what it is.

We weren't always monogamous. Evolution happened and with layers of time, certain behaviors changed. But not underlying ones and not on the subconscious level.

Maybe you'd like to read this. http://www.davidbrin.com/neotenyarticle1.html

snowy · 09-16-2008, 09:22 AM

According to the boundaries set in my relationship: no, pornography is not cheating. Fantasizing is not cheating. Honestly, I couldn't be with someone who thought those behaviors were cheating and maintain a healthy, functioning relationship, as they represent a fundamental difference of opinion. Fortunately, my SO and I are on the same page and often enjoy porn together.

PonyPotato · 09-16-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Call it what you want, that's what it is.

We weren't always monogamous. Evolution happened and with layers of time, certain behaviors changed. But not underlying ones and not on the subconscious level.

How would you know whether or not humans (or our predecessors) were always monogamous? Did you live a million years ago? Ever heard of the footprints at Laetoli - quite probably a nuclear family dated to 3.7 MILLION years ago!

This is the kind of response seen in the article - "just accept it, it's biology" or "get over it, it's normal." Humans are thinking, emotional beings and though our needs for food, water, shelter, and contact are necessary, we are more than able to control or suppress other biological urges. Why is this one so different that everyone MUST accept it?

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

How would you know whether or not humans (or our predecessors) were always monogamous? Did you live a million years ago? Ever heard of the footprints at Laetoli - quite probably a nuclear family dated to 3.7 MILLION years ago!

This is the kind of response seen in the article - "just accept it, it's biology" or "get over it, it's normal." Humans are thinking, emotional beings and though our needs for food, water, shelter, and contact are necessary, we are more than able to control or suppress other biological urges. Why is this one so different that everyone MUST accept it?

Nobody's asking you to accept it. I'm merely saying that it's normal for a male of the species to not be tied down to one female on a purely biological level. Social level? Not so much. At least not in most modern cultures. You have a strong opinion against it? Awesome! I have one too.

Point is, if the woman I'm dating has a problem with me watching porn, it's...well...her problem. I wouldn't stop doing it because of that hang up. I'm 100% against cheating however. In case you were curious.

Jinn · 09-16-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

Personally, I tend to have problems with porn. I don't appreciate it as "innocent fun" and I do subscribe to the idea that it can be a form of infidelity.

Most of the people on TFP will call me a prude or insecure with that admission (as I'm sure you've seen, there are plenty of threads about porn and telling women to "get over it, men are visual, it's harmless, it's normal").

My thought is thus: How can you truly commit to monogamy or a monogamous relationship if you fantasize about fucking other people on a regular basis? I hear the argument that "it gets the need to have multiple partners out of the system," but what I want to know is WHY that is considered a "need."

In my mind, if a person is truly committed to monogamy and wants fantasy/masturbatory material, they should seek out photos/video of their partner, not another person who is photographed because he/she meets societal ideals of a sexual object.

I may end up deleting/editing this post down later, but this is my thought process when it comes to porn. I just don't like it being present in a relationship, especially a sexually active, committed one where both individuals live together.

*Note - I am not addressing people in open relationships, polyamorous relationships, or relationships in which partners have not committed to being monogamous.

As much as I disagree with you, I must thank you for having the courage to disagree with the status quo and challenge pornography on a board mostly dominated by men, and one which has its own sections devoted to such. I don't think you're going to get many people who respond with you in agreement, so thanks for standing up for it, if it's what you really believe. You had to know that you were going to get nothing but disagreement, and I don't think I'd personally have the gusto to present an opinion that I knew would only be received negatively.

I myself find it inseparable from my personal definition of what it means to be a man, and I cannot see myself disavowing it without a great deal of cognitive dissonance and (physical) pain. I consider myself a very logical, methodical person who has no difficulty expressing the reasons for my actions. But I have to say that pornography appeals to me on a lower level, one that I don't think I could effectively convey. It's one of those things that requires the "you'd have to be in a man's head to really understand" arguments, as much as that appears to be a cop-out. In the same light, there are things about female behavior which I cannot understand even with logical explanation, as it requires a certain though process only invoked by being inside the world and the mind of a female.

As to the OP, I don't find it adulterous, simply because I subscribe to the "fantasy vs. reality" distinction, regardless of how antiquated the author might believe it to be. I know that if my girlfriend did something physical with another human being, it would hurt me. If she did something with an imaginary being, it would not. I would expect the same logic in reversed roles, and I think that most men believe the same. Women *tend* towards insecurity much more than men, in no small part due to the woman's-body-sexualized society that we live in. It's only natural that in a population group more likely to be insecure that pornography-related insecurity would abound.

EDIT:

I had to add this, to clarify that I wasn't denigrating women for their tendency toward insecurity. I believe it's only a natural result of the society in which we live, the role models we have and the roles we perceive from others. Because so much VALUE is placed on female sexuality, appearance, weight and attractiveness, girls as young as six pick up on this. I believe we're all innately aware of our Darwinian "reproductive value", and we know that by improving on the things that society places value on, we'll be more successful. As such, women spend a great deal of time and money preserving their appearance and their perceived "innocence." It's only natural that someone who (through socialization) places much of their value as a PERSON on their value as a sex object would feel hurt, insecure or cheated by someone who was choosing 'someone else' for their 'sex object' needs.

The other side of the equation is that society rewards and values men who have high societal presence, monetary worth and knowledge. I think you'd see this same insecurity, this same jealously and "cheating" feeling if a man's girlfriend were receiving valuable gifts, attending "high society" parties or receiving knowledgeable advice from another male. It's a challenge to their value as a person, just as many women perceive pornography to be a challenge towards their value as a woman.

ratbastid · 09-16-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

My thought is thus: How can you truly commit to monogamy or a monogamous relationship if you fantasize about fucking other people on a regular basis? I hear the argument that "it gets the need to have multiple partners out of the system," but what I want to know is WHY that is considered a "need."

I don't think it's a "need" so much as a "reality".

Fantasizing about people other than your partner is GOING to happen, especially (but not exclusively) for men. If it hasn't yet, wait. Outlawing it in a relationship is an act of denial.

PonyPotato · 09-16-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Nobody's asking you to accept it. I'm merely saying that it's normal for a male of the species to not be tied down to one female on a purely biological level. Social level? Not so much. At least not in the American culture. You have a strong opinion against it? Awesome! I have one too.

I understand that you have an opinion, and a strong one. What I am trying to do is not attack you, but get discussion rolling.

Why IS porn so different from other "biological urges," in how it is treated in the US and on the internet?

And why is "biology" so commonly used in the defense of its use? Why don't men explain their desires in a way that actually allows them to be seen as thinking humans? Are you all really so mindless that you see porn as strictly biological? The desire for sex or masturbation isn't exactly like the biological urge to go take a dump or drink some water, so I'd like to understand these issues and viewpoints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I don't think it's a "need" so much as a "reality".

Fantasizing about people other than your partner is GOING to happen, especially (but not exclusively) for men. If it hasn't yet, wait. Outlawing it in a relationship is an act of denial.

I didn't speak to fantasizing alone, but rather fantasizing using porn. There is a difference, at least to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

As much as I disagree with you, I must thank you for having the courage to disagree with the status quo and challenge pornography on a board mostly dominated by men, and one which has its own sections devoted to such. I don't think you're going to get many people who respond with you in agreement, so thanks for standing up for it, if it's what you really believe. You had to know that you were going to get nothing but disagreement, and I don't think I'd personally have the gusto to present an opinion that I knew would only be received negatively.

Thanks. I also appreciate your honesty and explanation in your response.

genuinegirly · 09-16-2008, 09:54 AM

I can see how people can have very different answers to these questions.

Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it?
No, physical interaction is not the line. Emotional attachment is the line.

Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant?
Emotions matter more.
I am not willing to become physically intimate with someone that I am not emotionally close to.
I can see how others can detach. I have no problems with this fact, and will allow them to embrace it.

Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable?
No.

Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair?
It is useful and good for each person in a relationship to probe their emotions and determine their own lines, then to express these lines and expectations to their partner. If you know your partner's personal boundaries, and their expectations for you, and you break them to the point where trust is destroyed, then you should not be shocked when the relationship ends.

Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better?
Yes. But to be fair, anti-porn folk tend to disregard your opinion even if you're eloquent and thoughtful about your pro-porn argument.

Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally?
If you mean being more open about topics that were once taboo, then yes.

Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same?
Open communication about sexual matters will lead us to a more stable place. There will be less unnecessary guilt.

Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil?
I do tend to think it is more positive than negative.
I do not think that there is any reason to label it as evil.

Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends?
Gender be damned. Each individual should be held to the standards they set.

I do see how porn can become a harmful addiction, along the lines of drug abuse and alcoholism. I do not think that it commonly escalates to harmful levels. If a person turns to porn when their relationship is sexually unsatisfying, then they are avoiding communication and healing. If a partner has little to no sex drive, there could be an underlying medical reason. By turning to porn for personal relief, a person may be less likely to address their partner's medical needs. Feelings of resentment may arise if a partner prefers masturbation to porn over intimacy.

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

I understand that you have an opinion, and a strong one. What I am trying to do is not attack you, but get discussion rolling.

Why IS porn so different from other "biological urges," in how it is treated in the US and on the internet?

And why is "biology" so commonly used in the defense of its use? Why don't men explain their desires in a way that actually allows them to be seen as thinking humans? Are you all really so mindless that you see porn as strictly biological? The desire for sex or masturbation isn't exactly like the biological urge to go take a dump or drink some water, so I'd like to understand these issues and viewpoints.

Porn is only an outlet for a need...no, desire, rather for someone other than your partner. People have been raised in a society where cheating or monogamy is frowned upon and is not widely accepted, mostly for good reason. Porn simply gives these feelings breathing room. I wouldn't say most, but a great deal of men would be thrilled if their partner let them sleep with other women with no repercussions.

A man's biological role is to inseminate as many females as possible. Woman's biological role is to raise a child and find a provider. Why do women wet their panties at rock concerts? Because the singer is the alpha male. He commands attention and is in the spotlight. Why do men lust after every skirt? Because they have a strong desire to. Ask a man why and you won't get a concrete answer. We just do.

If you're looking for personal input, then I fit in the category I describe above. I'm not dead. I look at other women and I comment on them. Sometimes to my girlfriend. She knows I'm a looker and is somewhat okay with that. However, she looks at men and comments as well, despite her not being too thrilled about my comments. It doesn't bother me in the least because I know that at the end of the day, she's still with me.

Porn is the same way. She knows I look at it. The subject has been brought up twice. Last time it was brought about a year and a half ago and I explained my position and made it clear that I will not stop looking at porn.

Jinn · 09-16-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

[...]A man's biological role is to inseminate as many females as possible. Woman's biological role is to raise a child and find a provider. Why do women wet their panties at rock concerts? Because the singer is the alpha male. He commands attention and is in the spotlight. Why do men lust after every skirt? Because they have a strong desire to. Ask a man why and you won't get a concrete answer. We just do.

If you're looking for personal input, then I fit in the category I describe above. I'm not dead. I look at other women and I comment on them. Sometimes to my girlfriend. She knows I'm a looker and is somewhat okay with that. However, she looks at men and comments as well, despite her not being too thrilled about my comments. It doesn't bother me in the least because I know that at the end of the day, she's still with me.

Porn is the same way. She knows I look at it. The subject has been brought up twice. Last time it was brought about a year and a half ago and I explained my position and made it clear that I will not stop looking at porn.

Do you really believe this? That men and women are no more evolved than their primate precursors? I think we're a little past the survival-of-the-fittest fuck-everything-that-moves animal state. There will certainly be variability within the population, with some men less 'evolved' and some more 'evolved', but I'd like to think that even the most base neanderthal idiot man thinks at a higher level than "FUCK EVERYTHING THAT MOVES!!!"

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 10:58 AM

I never said that was how we function. I said it was the underlying idea. I did mention evolution a while back. What it is are remnants and subconscious urges.

EDIT: Look, people masturbate. Men arguably a lot more than women. Porn is used for visual stimulation which helps the physical one. Looking deeper than that is pointless because that's basically it. Simply a visual aid.

curiousbear · 09-16-2008, 12:55 PM

Firstly as a TFP community I respect all our opinions and views. I wont use strong tone either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

Personally, I tend to have problems with porn. I don't appreciate it as "innocent fun" and I do subscribe to the idea that it can be a form of infidelity.
My thought is thus: How can you truly commit to monogamy or a monogamous relationship if you fantasize about fucking other people on a regular basis?

I want to know WHY that is considered a "need."

As a teenager I only read text on sex. Mostly to understand about it. I consiously avoided all the oppurtunities to see explicit graphic. In fact I declined the chance for physical fun. The reason I had was that I have to wait for my soulmate. Well I was in deed too much a dreamer. I stronly beleived in monogamy. But as an adult now I watch too much porn, my partner knows (I think she is confused about it, not hurt clearly, may be she trusts me a lot). I no longer feel bad or guilty using porn.
My best fantasy is a real HOT sex life with a derived persona of my girl. Younger, slimmer, hotter and naughtier version of hers. But nothing like I am not happy with the reality. It just is not quenching. I am very much aware that I am not the most handsome, not even cute. But the heart and mind function too differently.

Is the butt and thigh in the picture yours?

Have you ever wondered about women producing one egg per cycle whereas men produce millions of sperms every day? Does it tell about the difference in thier nature? How ever that fits for the animal with five senses on top of which we have a sixth sense (atleast many of us) is running

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Nobody's asking you to accept it. I'm merely saying that it's normal for a male of the species to not be tied down to one female on a purely biological level. Social level? Not so much. At least not in most modern cultures. You have a strong opinion against it? Awesome! I have one too.

Point is, if the woman I'm dating has a problem with me watching porn, it's...well...her problem. I wouldn't stop doing it because of that hang up. I'm 100% against cheating however. In case you were curious.

I disagree with you LoganSnake. We can justify anything we do when we feel & think that it is right. we are no longer primitives. We had lived thousands of years and evolved a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil?
I do tend to think it is more positive than negative.
I do not think that there is any reason to label it as evil.

It is a very tough question. Let me try. Erotic displays at public, in the form of paintings, sculpture, etc in the form of women, men; not shows specific personality is good. This can be in places of worship, near swimming pools, Drawing room, College Auditoriums, etc where it is public that everyone knows it is there. Forgive me if I am confusing. You see an art and may be you can visualize yourself and your partner in that situation or position. Or you learn a possibility like "Oh you can kiss in that angle" or what ever.
But pictures of live people, taking after paying them money or stealing thier privacy... No matter how much I enjoy, how much it is common, it just cant be right. We are definitely capable of a better THING.

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends?
Gender be damned. Each individual should be held to the standards they set.

Never. LonganSnakes views are so much male point of view. I cant accept it sorry about that. I personally wont mind if my girls watches porn. I do watch. But just because we do and enjoy it we dont have to blindly conclude that it is right. It is worth to ponder.

Hey Genuinegirly, I liked your way of answering, but let me stick to porn and not about other possible realtionships.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

Porn is only an outlet for a need...no, desire, rather for someone other than your partner.
...
A man's biological role is to inseminate as many females as possible. Woman's biological role is to raise a child and find a provider. Why do women wet their panties at rock concerts? Because the singer is the alpha male. ... Why do men lust after every skirt? Because they have a strong desire to.
...

Very primitive point of view. Porn is only an outlet because there is no enough engagement for the senses? In terms of sports, games, challenges, music, joy, fun with friends, etc? Is it because the senses are not fullfilled with other activities and meaningful moments?

Honestly I dont know how many men will feel secure if male porns exist as much as female porn exist. And if females keep collecting and watching too much of large, huge penises that curve in all possible ways, porns of younger, cuter, taller, much more handsome guys... I certainly beleive the number of women who enjoy porn that way is lesser comparitively. Personally honestly I might be little concerned.

I can define one yard stick for anyone to judge what is right and wrong for themselves. What you expect your dad to be to your Mom, and your son-in-law to your daughter, you need to be same to your Wife/Gf. It is as simple as that. Ask this question yourself and the genuine answer will tell you what is right.

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousbear

1. I disagree with you LoganSnake. We can justify anything we do when we feel & think that it is right. we are no longer primitives. We had lived thousands of years and evolved a lot.

2. Never. LonganSnakes views are so much male point of view. I cant accept it sorry about that. I personally wont mind if my girls watches porn. I do watch. But just because we do and enjoy it we dont have to blindly conclude that it is right. It is worth to ponder.

3. Very primitive point of view. Porn is only an outlet because there is no enough engagement for the senses? In terms of sports, games, challenges, music, joy, fun with friends, etc? Is it because the senses are not fullfilled with other activities and meaningful moments?

4. Honestly I dont know how many men will feel secure if male porns exist as much as female porn exist. And if females keep collecting and watching too much of large, huge penises that curve in all possible ways, porns of younger, cuter, taller, much more handsome guys... I certainly beleive the number of women who enjoy porn that way is lesser comparitively. Personally honestly I might be little concerned.

1. In some ways, sure. In others, not so much.

2. Too much male? Have I explicitly stated that it's only right for men to watch porn?

3. While there is more to life than sitting at home jacking off to pornography, substituting your need for a sexual release with sports, friends and other events doesn't make sense at all. They're all great things in their own right, but don't confuse sex drive with being active.

4. By all means, let there be more male porn. Why should I feel insecure if more men get naked for the pleasure of women? It has nothing to do with being insecure...well, it has everything to do with insecurities. However, it wouldn't bother me personally.

jorgelito · 09-16-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

Personally, I tend to have problems with porn. I don't appreciate it as "innocent fun" and I do subscribe to the idea that it can be a form of infidelity.

Most of the people on TFP will call me a prude or insecure with that admission (as I'm sure you've seen, there are plenty of threads about porn and telling women to "get over it, men are visual, it's harmless, it's normal").

My thought is thus: How can you truly commit to monogamy or a monogamous relationship if you fantasize about fucking other people on a regular basis? I hear the argument that "it gets the need to have multiple partners out of the system," but what I want to know is WHY that is considered a "need."

In my mind, if a person is truly committed to monogamy and wants fantasy/masturbatory material, they should seek out photos/video of their partner, not another person who is photographed because he/she meets societal ideals of a sexual object.

I may end up deleting/editing this post down later, but this is my thought process when it comes to porn. I just don't like it being present in a relationship, especially a sexually active, committed one where both individuals live together.

*Note - I am not addressing people in open relationships, polyamorous relationships, or relationships in which partners have not committed to being monogamous.

Very eloquent post merleniau. Please don't feel the need to edit or take down your post. I should hope that tfp members would know better than to ridicule or call you names. Keep it up.

PonyPotato · 09-16-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousbear

Firstly as a TFP community I respect all our opinions and views. I wont use strong tone either.

As a teenager I only read text on sex. Mostly to understand about it. I consiously avoided all the oppurtunities to see explicit graphic. In fact I declined the chance for physical fun. The reason I had was that I have to wait for my soulmate. Well I was in deed too much a dreamer. I stronly beleived in monogamy. But as an adult now I watch too much porn, my partner knows (I think she is confused about it, not hurt clearly, may be she trusts me a lot). I no longer feel bad or guilty using porn.
My best fantasy is a real HOT sex life with a derived persona of my girl. Younger, slimmer, hotter and naughtier version of hers. But nothing like I am not happy with the reality. It just is not quenching. I am very much aware that I am not the most handsome, not even cute. But the heart and mind function too differently.

Is the butt and thigh in the picture yours?

Have you ever wondered about women producing one egg per cycle whereas men produce millions of sperms every day? Does it tell about the difference in thier nature? How ever that fits for the animal with five senses on top of which we have a sixth sense (atleast many of us) is running

Yes, the profile picture is of me.

Yes, I have considered the difference in production of gametes between the sexes. But you know what? It may take on sperm cell to fertilize an egg, but generally one shot in an entire month/year isn't going to get it. Couples must have sex often/regularly to conceive, since women do not have a visible fertile period/estrus. If men were shooting blanks (i.e. not producing enough viable sperm for sex on a regular/daily basis), conception would nearly never occur.

Just because males of many species produce millions of sperm cells all the time does not mean they NEED sex with multiple partners, or that it allows for/contributes to that idea. It does allow for a better chance of conception with one partner.
-----Added 16/9/2008 at 06 : 50 : 52-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Very eloquent post merleniau. Please don't feel the need to edit or take down your post. I should hope that tfp members would know better than to ridicule or call you names. Keep it up.

Thank you!

Cynosure · 09-16-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

Personally, I tend to have problems with porn. I don't appreciate it as "innocent fun" and I do subscribe to the idea that it can be a form of infidelity... In my mind, if a person is truly committed to monogamy and wants fantasy/masturbatory material, they should seek out photos/video of their partner, not another person who is photographed because he/she meets societal ideals of a sexual object.

So, why have you chosen an avatar image that sparks thoughts of lust and infidelity in us, whenever we see your posts?

abaya · 09-16-2008, 03:14 PM

Merleniau, I also applaud your posts here, and I will most certainly not call you names. It is a very clear opinion, and I think it is great that you and Cromp agree to those standards mutually. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I think it speaks to the quality of your relationship that you both agree on this issue. I think it's actually quite necessary for all parties to agree on what will be their boundaries, including whether or not porn is allowed.

However, I will say that I also agree with ratbastid here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Fantasizing about people other than your partner is GOING to happen, especially (but not exclusively) for men.

I used to be mentally monogamous... that is, blocking my brain from thinking about other men, because at some level I did believe that it was wrong (I attribute this, personally, to my long years as a religious person who pretty much succeeded in stomping out all kinds of sexual urges in myself). But partly through being on TFP, and partly just through my own self-exploration... and most definitely because my husband is not the jealous or insecure type AT ALL (he encourages me to explore my own mental sexuality, and totally accepts that I think about other men while fantasizing)... I have really come to appreciate porn and especially my own fantasies, and I use them often and without reserve. And I really, truly do not think that it takes away from the quality of our relationship, in any form.

As GG said, of course I do think that porn can be destructive, just as many other things can be when they are taken to an extreme or unhealthy level. But within the right context, and with all parties agreeing to the same standards, I think that it can be really just another "toy" to have in the relationship... another form of exploration, that helps enhance the connection between people, rather than taking away from it. It all depends on the people involved.

curiousbear · 09-16-2008, 03:27 PM

Merlaniau, I hope you read my post fully

any comments?

Halx · 09-16-2008, 03:53 PM

Creatures in captivity, when they've lost the necessity to use their natural instincts to survive, turn to masturbation. Draw your own parallels.

LoganSnake, is this the reasoning you were looking for?

LoganSnake · 09-16-2008, 04:33 PM

If I knew that fact before, it might have been. Interesting.

PonyPotato · 09-16-2008, 04:42 PM

Cynosure · 09-16-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

I can always change it back to the horse I had on here before. I've had no complaints until now.

No, I'm not taking issue with your avatar image, itself; which, though revealing, titilating, and even a little intimate, is not pornographic. No, what I'm taking issue with is your wearing of that avatar image while up on a soapbox about pornography and infidelity. You appear to me to be double-minded and self-contradicting. Especially considering your quote, "In my mind, if a person is truly committed to monogamy and wants fantasy/masturbatory material, they should seek out photos/video of their partner, not another person who is photographed because he/she meets societal ideals of a sexual object."

ASU2003 · 09-16-2008, 07:32 PM

I don't see any problem with seeing other people naked and possibly having sex. I have moved to watching only real amateurs having sex (even with the bad camera work). I don't really fantasize about a specific girl, but more like what any girl would feel like.

And if I found a girl that was willing to make porn between us for me to watch instead, I would be fine with that. But she would also have to have a healthy sex drive and want it more than once a month.

I doubt that I would give up on watching it for a girl, I watched it for years with my parents in the house growing up as a teenager. That is unless we were having sex everyday, then I would need a break. And I don't view it as adultery as much as going out to drinks with an ex, kissing someone else or sleeping with someone is.

Halx · 09-16-2008, 07:34 PM

I believe monogamy is a springboard for pornography attachment. Please see post #23

abaya · 09-17-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I believe monogamy is a springboard for pornography attachment. Please see post #23

Really? Ask my husband.

I say it has more to do with the quality of one's monogamy than monogamy in itself.

You say "monogamy" like it's a bad word.

PonyPotato · 09-17-2008, 03:34 AM

jewels · 09-17-2008, 04:09 AM

While I agree that it can be a form of infidelity, it isn't always.

I think that viewing porn is fine, until it reaches the point of obsession. Some can manage it, others can't. Others find it a temporary obsession and are able to move on once they see their reality.

The article mentions Second Life and similar sites. While I was still married, I had an online sexual relationship through one of these sies because I needed the validation and wasn't willing to admit the marriage was failing fast. Somehow my husband had found out (or maybe I told him, I truly don't remember) and confronted me and I recall defending my actions, saying it wasn't cheating. It did hurt him. Looking back now, I can see that it had become an obsession and was cheating. My intent was self-gratification, body and soul, because I wasn't getting it from my marriage.

Although I still view porn sometimes, most of those times are with the man I love. I'm no longer obsessed. At least for now.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

curiousbear · 09-17-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

And curiousbear.. I did read your entire post and replied to the part directed at me. I very much appreciate your opinion and viewpoint and really enjoy the fact that you think it's okay to question instead of just justify.

You know I had viewpoint same as yours. To be in mans body is not easy either! Porn certainly eased me up. I am no longer workaholic, rude at work, indifferent at home, etc. I would love to have a hot sex life in reality, no porn, credible profession, etc. But it is just that not possible for all people all the time... And for some it sounds never possible.

I am taking this little more serious, I refrain from porn since last evening. Let us see how it goes and what it does to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

I say it has more to do with the quality of one's monogamy than monogamy in itself.
You say "monogamy" like it's a bad word.

You hit it right! I strongly agree with you and could relate to it very well.

Jozrael · 09-17-2008, 10:19 AM

I am truly committed to my SO. As is she to me.

We both look at porn. That is ok with both of us.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, cheating is measured in secrets kept. Porn CAN be cheating if you wouldn't tell your partner about it. It can also be cheating if THEY find it a form of infidelity and you choose to do it anyways (but in that case, you've got more serious communication problems). It can also be entirely, 100% fine. It depends on the relationship.

If my first relationship had gotten farther down the road, I'm confident that girl would NOT have been ok with me viewing porn. Thus, I probably wouldn't have.

My current girlfriend is ok with it, and I enjoy it. Thus, I do.

lotsofmagnets · 09-17-2008, 04:08 PM

+1 to abaya´s post. couldn´t have put it better myself (minus the husband bit)

curiousbear · 09-17-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merleniau

I can always change it back to the horse I had on here before. I've had no complaints until now.

Neither do you now. You dont have to change your avatar. I use to adore (drool) at it everytime I saw it until yesterday. Now as part of my experiment I consiously dont look at it.

Ayashe · 09-17-2008, 06:06 PM

Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it? I am opposed to anything relating to porn or erotica that requires involvement. Porn as far as a visual, a movie, a show, an image, I am ok with that. I am not ok with anything that requires participation whether it be physical or cyber.

Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant? Any physical sexual relationship outside of the relationship is cheating, any sexual participation between my lover and another is cheating in my eyes. Whether it is on the phone, by mail, on the internet, or in some dank hotel room.

Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable? No.

Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair? No, I believe that it is important to draw lines. I believe that each person should know where they stand in a relationship, what they feel is acceptable and unacceptable. Should a gray area be brought up later it can be worked through.

Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better? At times, I believe so. For one, I think there is far more depth to it than, if it has a penis it is going to look at porn. I don't believe that is the full truth.

Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally? I honestly don't believe so. There are changes of course, more porn access being one of them. Access has changed porn considerably but that doesn't change the fact that it was still there. With availablity it is likely more socially acceptable. At the same time, do you tell your neighbor, mother, children that you look at porn or would you find that uncomfortable. I think more enjoy it because of the anonymity you can have now. I have little doubt that if the same capabilities existed in years past it would have been utilized much more.

Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same? I would say if anything the expanded knowledge that the internet has provided has likely made some people feel not entirely alone in some of the more taboo aspects of sexual pleasure. I would also say that it has made some more knowledgeable.

Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil? It depends. For most people I am sure it is used harmlessly. There are some who will have addictive personalities and it will become an evil. Just like alcohol, some people can drink without a problem, others can't stop after one. Necessary, I don't think so. In the eyes of the inexperienced, it may lead them to a false idea of what sex is in reality. To others, partners who for whatever reason must be apart for great deals of time, it may be a blessing.

Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends? I have seen the opinion or the "data" that some men have used to substantiate their use of porn, their need for sex. I have to answer obviously yes. Men are almost expected to view porn, it is considered so natural to some. Women on the other hand in part I don't think they require that sort of mindless stimulation but they are held with a higher "more saintly" regard.

Whenever porn invades a relationship, meaning to the point where the dynamics of a relationship has changed, it is wrong. When porn invades in a manner that makes one of the partners uncomfortable, it is wrong.

curiousbear · 09-17-2008, 06:44 PM

Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it?
No. Even visual interaction is sex. Eg. CAM. Or even voice for that matter Eg: Phone.

Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant?
Physicality is relevant and matters. Emotional is deadly, will lead to break up

Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable?
Yes if that troubles the sexual desire and experience with current partner

Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair?
Sorry I dint understand this question

Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better? I strongly feel that most individual takes easy ground. A sex life consisting only of the lover/spouse with no others in the form of pictures, videos or live presence is IDEAL and is NOT IMPOSSIBLE. And if that is HOT and not BOREDOM, that society is SUPERFICIAL. sounds like fairy tale though.

Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally?
over time yes values shift
over distance yes, values vary depending on where you are
over lifestyle, yes. even in same place during same time, based on your life style (career, profession, status, etc) values differ
It even changes over preference and beliefs
Some are ok to watch amateur porn, made not by buying, forcing or cheating people
Some think watching Professional porn is ethically ok, as it is business

Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same?
I am practically a pervert. Until yesterday morning I drool at every possible visual (art, photo, people) who are sexy. But I want to change. I will try to keep all sexy thing between couple-hood and see how long I could make it

Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil?
Porno is a positive evil.
Positive because a lot of people have very good time alone or with partner, adds up fantasy imaginationa and makes thier sexual experience more gratifying. it releives urge and releases.
Evil because it involves prostitution or that kind of people exist. Let us be clear Art, Nudity and Porn are totally three different things. If we can be perfectly comfortable to introduce our sister or neice as "She is a porn star, she is very good at it" to our friends or colleagues... We dont have to consider it evil. I hope I answered it without hurting or offending anyone.

Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends?
Not at all, it got to be same standards

LoganSnake · 09-17-2008, 07:23 PM

So wait, you completely changed your views overnight? One day you're a pervert and another day porn is evil? What?

curiousbear · 09-17-2008, 10:15 PM

you did not read my earlier post properly, below is the copy paste without changing a word

Quote:
Originally Posted by genuinegirly
Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil?
I do tend to think it is more positive than negative.
I do not think that there is any reason to label it as evil.

It is a very tough question. Let me try. Erotic displays at public, in the form of paintings, sculpture, etc in the form of women, men; not shows specific personality is good. This can be in places of worship, near swimming pools, Drawing room, College Auditoriums, etc where it is public that everyone knows it is there. Forgive me if I am confusing. You see an art and may be you can visualize yourself and your partner in that situation or position. Or you learn a possibility like "Oh you can kiss in that angle" or what ever.
But pictures of live people, taking after paying them money or stealing thier privacy... No matter how much I enjoy, how much it is common, it just cant be right. We are definitely capable of a better THING.

LoganSnake · 09-18-2008, 05:01 AM

Why would you say it's wrong to do something you enjoy for money? Before somebody brings up contract killing, I mean it within the legal boundaries.

You probably have a job. You might even enjoy doing it. Is it wrong to accept money for it? Porn stars are entertainers. They just have sex for others to see.

09-16-2008, 08:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
PonyPotato Soaring Location: Ohio!	Personally, I tend to have problems with porn. I don't appreciate it as "innocent fun" and I do subscribe to the idea that it can be a form of infidelity. Most of the people on TFP will call me a prude or insecure with that admission (as I'm sure you've seen, there are plenty of threads about porn and telling women to "get over it, men are visual, it's harmless, it's normal"). My thought is thus: How can you truly commit to monogamy or a monogamous relationship if you fantasize about fucking other people on a regular basis? I hear the argument that "it gets the need to have multiple partners out of the system," but what I want to know is WHY that is considered a "need." In my mind, if a person is truly committed to monogamy and wants fantasy/masturbatory material, they should seek out photos/video of their partner, not another person who is photographed because he/she meets societal ideals of a sexual object. I may end up deleting/editing this post down later, but this is my thought process when it comes to porn. I just don't like it being present in a relationship, especially a sexually active, committed one where both individuals live together. Note - I am not addressing people in open relationships, polyamorous relationships, or relationships in which partners have not committed to being monogamous. __________________ "Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."* — Henri-Frédéric Amiel

09-16-2008, 09:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	Call it what you want, that's what it is. We weren't always monogamous. Evolution happened and with layers of time, certain behaviors changed. But not underlying ones and not on the subconscious level. Maybe you'd like to read this. http://www.davidbrin.com/neotenyarticle1.html __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

09-16-2008, 09:22 AM	#6 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	According to the boundaries set in my relationship: no, pornography is not cheating. Fantasizing is not cheating. Honestly, I couldn't be with someone who thought those behaviors were cheating and maintain a healthy, functioning relationship, as they represent a fundamental difference of opinion. Fortunately, my SO and I are on the same page and often enjoy porn together. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

09-16-2008, 09:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	I can see how people can have very different answers to these questions. Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it? No, physical interaction is not the line. Emotional attachment is the line. Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant? Emotions matter more. I am not willing to become physically intimate with someone that I am not emotionally close to. I can see how others can detach. I have no problems with this fact, and will allow them to embrace it. Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable? No. Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair? It is useful and good for each person in a relationship to probe their emotions and determine their own lines, then to express these lines and expectations to their partner. If you know your partner's personal boundaries, and their expectations for you, and you break them to the point where trust is destroyed, then you should not be shocked when the relationship ends. Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better? Yes. But to be fair, anti-porn folk tend to disregard your opinion even if you're eloquent and thoughtful about your pro-porn argument. Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally? If you mean being more open about topics that were once taboo, then yes. Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same? Open communication about sexual matters will lead us to a more stable place. There will be less unnecessary guilt. Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil? I do tend to think it is more positive than negative. I do not think that there is any reason to label it as evil. Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends? Gender be damned. Each individual should be held to the standards they set. I do see how porn can become a harmful addiction, along the lines of drug abuse and alcoholism. I do not think that it commonly escalates to harmful levels. If a person turns to porn when their relationship is sexually unsatisfying, then they are avoiding communication and healing. If a partner has little to no sex drive, there could be an underlying medical reason. By turning to porn for personal relief, a person may be less likely to address their partner's medical needs. Feelings of resentment may arise if a partner prefers masturbation to porn over intimacy. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy Last edited by genuinegirly; 09-16-2008 at 10:09 AM.. Reason: added personal thoughts

09-16-2008, 10:58 AM	#15 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	I never said that was how we function. I said it was the underlying idea. I did mention evolution a while back. What it is are remnants and subconscious urges. EDIT: Look, people masturbate. Men arguably a lot more than women. Porn is used for visual stimulation which helps the physical one. Looking deeper than that is pointless because that's basically it. Simply a visual aid. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques Last edited by LoganSnake; 09-16-2008 at 11:28 AM..

09-16-2008, 03:27 PM	#22 (permalink)
curiousbear Addict Location: WA	Merlaniau, I hope you read my post fully any comments?

09-16-2008, 03:53 PM	#23 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Creatures in captivity, when they've lost the necessity to use their natural instincts to survive, turn to masturbation. Draw your own parallels. LoganSnake, is this the reasoning you were looking for? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-16-2008, 04:33 PM	#24 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	If I knew that fact before, it might have been. Interesting. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

09-16-2008, 04:42 PM	#25 (permalink)
PonyPotato Soaring Location: Ohio!	edit __________________ "Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark." — Henri-Frédéric Amiel Last edited by PonyPotato; 09-18-2008 at 03:43 AM..

09-16-2008, 07:32 PM	#27 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I don't see any problem with seeing other people naked and possibly having sex. I have moved to watching only real amateurs having sex (even with the bad camera work). I don't really fantasize about a specific girl, but more like what any girl would feel like. And if I found a girl that was willing to make porn between us for me to watch instead, I would be fine with that. But she would also have to have a healthy sex drive and want it more than once a month. I doubt that I would give up on watching it for a girl, I watched it for years with my parents in the house growing up as a teenager. That is unless we were having sex everyday, then I would need a break. And I don't view it as adultery as much as going out to drinks with an ex, kissing someone else or sleeping with someone is.

09-16-2008, 07:34 PM	#28 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	I believe monogamy is a springboard for pornography attachment. Please see post #23 __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-17-2008, 03:34 AM	#30 (permalink)
PonyPotato Soaring Location: Ohio!	edit __________________ "Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark." — Henri-Frédéric Amiel Last edited by PonyPotato; 09-18-2008 at 03:44 AM..

09-17-2008, 04:09 AM	#31 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	While I agree that it can be a form of infidelity, it isn't always. I think that viewing porn is fine, until it reaches the point of obsession. Some can manage it, others can't. Others find it a temporary obsession and are able to move on once they see their reality. The article mentions Second Life and similar sites. While I was still married, I had an online sexual relationship through one of these sies because I needed the validation and wasn't willing to admit the marriage was failing fast. Somehow my husband had found out (or maybe I told him, I truly don't remember) and confronted me and I recall defending my actions, saying it wasn't cheating. It did hurt him. Looking back now, I can see that it had become an obsession and was cheating. My intent was self-gratification, body and soul, because I wasn't getting it from my marriage. Although I still view porn sometimes, most of those times are with the man I love. I'm no longer obsessed. At least for now. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

09-17-2008, 10:19 AM	#33 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	I am truly committed to my SO. As is she to me. We both look at porn. That is ok with both of us. As has been mentioned elsewhere, cheating is measured in secrets kept. Porn CAN be cheating if you wouldn't tell your partner about it. It can also be cheating if THEY find it a form of infidelity and you choose to do it anyways (but in that case, you've got more serious communication problems). It can also be entirely, 100% fine. It depends on the relationship. If my first relationship had gotten farther down the road, I'm confident that girl would NOT have been ok with me viewing porn. Thus, I probably wouldn't have. My current girlfriend is ok with it, and I enjoy it. Thus, I do.

09-17-2008, 04:08 PM	#34 (permalink)
lotsofmagnets Upright Location: reykjavík, iceland	+1 to abaya´s post. couldn´t have put it better myself (minus the husband bit) __________________ mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable? Last edited by lotsofmagnets; 09-17-2008 at 04:12 PM..

09-17-2008, 06:06 PM	#36 (permalink)
Ayashe Psycho	Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it? I am opposed to anything relating to porn or erotica that requires involvement. Porn as far as a visual, a movie, a show, an image, I am ok with that. I am not ok with anything that requires participation whether it be physical or cyber. Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant? Any physical sexual relationship outside of the relationship is cheating, any sexual participation between my lover and another is cheating in my eyes. Whether it is on the phone, by mail, on the internet, or in some dank hotel room. Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable? No. Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair? No, I believe that it is important to draw lines. I believe that each person should know where they stand in a relationship, what they feel is acceptable and unacceptable. Should a gray area be brought up later it can be worked through. Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better? At times, I believe so. For one, I think there is far more depth to it than, if it has a penis it is going to look at porn. I don't believe that is the full truth. Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally? I honestly don't believe so. There are changes of course, more porn access being one of them. Access has changed porn considerably but that doesn't change the fact that it was still there. With availablity it is likely more socially acceptable. At the same time, do you tell your neighbor, mother, children that you look at porn or would you find that uncomfortable. I think more enjoy it because of the anonymity you can have now. I have little doubt that if the same capabilities existed in years past it would have been utilized much more. Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same? I would say if anything the expanded knowledge that the internet has provided has likely made some people feel not entirely alone in some of the more taboo aspects of sexual pleasure. I would also say that it has made some more knowledgeable. Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil? It depends. For most people I am sure it is used harmlessly. There are some who will have addictive personalities and it will become an evil. Just like alcohol, some people can drink without a problem, others can't stop after one. Necessary, I don't think so. In the eyes of the inexperienced, it may lead them to a false idea of what sex is in reality. To others, partners who for whatever reason must be apart for great deals of time, it may be a blessing. Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends? I have seen the opinion or the "data" that some men have used to substantiate their use of porn, their need for sex. I have to answer obviously yes. Men are almost expected to view porn, it is considered so natural to some. Women on the other hand in part I don't think they require that sort of mindless stimulation but they are held with a higher "more saintly" regard. Whenever porn invades a relationship, meaning to the point where the dynamics of a relationship has changed, it is wrong. When porn invades in a manner that makes one of the partners uncomfortable, it is wrong.

09-17-2008, 06:44 PM	#37 (permalink)
curiousbear Addict Location: WA	Is physical interaction the line, and you're okay with anything that precedes it? No. Even visual interaction is sex. Eg. CAM. Or even voice for that matter Eg: Phone. Are the emotions what matter, and the physicality is irrelevant? Physicality is relevant and matters. Emotional is deadly, will lead to break up Is sexual desire for another enough to be considered infidelity, making infidelity inevitable? Yes if that troubles the sexual desire and experience with current partner Is it un-useful to draw lines, is it innately a nebulous affair? Sorry I dint understand this question Are porn apologists taking the easy low-ground, when we're capable of better? I strongly feel that most individual takes easy ground. A sex life consisting only of the lover/spouse with no others in the form of pictures, videos or live presence is IDEAL and is NOT IMPOSSIBLE. And if that is HOT and not BOREDOM, that society is SUPERFICIAL. sounds like fairy tale though. Are we, over time, shifting our societies values fundamentally? over time yes values shift over distance yes, values vary depending on where you are over lifestyle, yes. even in same place during same time, based on your life style (career, profession, status, etc) values differ It even changes over preference and beliefs Some are ok to watch amateur porn, made not by buying, forcing or cheating people Some think watching Professional porn is ethically ok, as it is business Are we going to a better or worse place? ....Or will we be relatively the same? I am practically a pervert. Until yesterday morning I drool at every possible visual (art, photo, people) who are sexy. But I want to change. I will try to keep all sexy thing between couple-hood and see how long I could make it Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil? Porno is a positive evil. Positive because a lot of people have very good time alone or with partner, adds up fantasy imaginationa and makes thier sexual experience more gratifying. it releives urge and releases. Evil because it involves prostitution or that kind of people exist. Let us be clear Art, Nudity and Porn are totally three different things. If we can be perfectly comfortable to introduce our sister or neice as "She is a porn star, she is very good at it" to our friends or colleagues... We dont have to consider it evil. I hope I answered it without hurting or offending anyone. Are men and women to be held to different standards, given the observable trends? Not at all, it got to be same standards

09-17-2008, 07:23 PM	#38 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	So wait, you completely changed your views overnight? One day you're a pervert and another day porn is evil? What? __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

09-17-2008, 10:15 PM	#39 (permalink)
curiousbear Addict Location: WA	you did not read my earlier post properly, below is the copy paste without changing a word Quote: Originally Posted by genuinegirly Is pornography more positive than negative, or a necessary evil? I do tend to think it is more positive than negative. I do not think that there is any reason to label it as evil. It is a very tough question. Let me try. Erotic displays at public, in the form of paintings, sculpture, etc in the form of women, men; not shows specific personality is good. This can be in places of worship, near swimming pools, Drawing room, College Auditoriums, etc where it is public that everyone knows it is there. Forgive me if I am confusing. You see an art and may be you can visualize yourself and your partner in that situation or position. Or you learn a possibility like "Oh you can kiss in that angle" or what ever. But pictures of live people, taking after paying them money or stealing thier privacy... No matter how much I enjoy, how much it is common, it just cant be right. We are definitely capable of a better THING.

09-18-2008, 05:01 AM	#40 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	Why would you say it's wrong to do something you enjoy for money? Before somebody brings up contract killing, I mean it within the legal boundaries. You probably have a job. You might even enjoy doing it. Is it wrong to accept money for it? Porn stars are entertainers. They just have sex for others to see. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques