tecoyah

Not this is what I wanted to see in here, very insightful for those of us with a penis. Pay attention to the input the wonderful women of TFP are giving you in here...you will at the very least, get laid more.

More importantly, you may make someone happy, and by extention yourself.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

xxxafterglow

Well.. I think this goes for both sexes - ultimately, we just want to be with someone we respect. This can mean anything from financial independence to corporate power to a poetic soul, depending on what turns you on.

I respect a guy who respects me and doesn't ask me to change (compromise is ok) and understands what's important to me. I can't really give a laundry list of stuff (like proper gifts or sexual protocol) because all that is trivial and can be learned during the course of the relationship.

Anyway tec, you should be dating women that enrich your life - if you care about her and are not a complete dunce/bad listener/self-absorbed asshole, everything else will fall into place.

You know how the song goes... R-E-S-P-E-C-T, find out what it means to me.

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Uh huh her.

tecoyah

Heh....Though I am certainly enjoying, and absorbing what you ladies are placing here for our education, somehow I dont think my own dating needs are all that relevant to the thread. I started this mainly as an archive of Data for us confused men to fall back on in times of distress, I myself have my hands far too full at this point to take dating very seriously...heh. You are however, absolutely correct in that we all should be basing relationships on enrichment of ourselves and our partner, In many ways I think the input of all the women in this thread points that out wonderfully.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

xxxafterglow

tec, sorry to assume that your interest was for direct personal reasons.

Just wanted to add that I like it when my partner slaps my ass in public. Territorial PDA.
Call me an old-fashioned animal .

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Uh huh her.

filtherton

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhit.

Everybody knows chicks can't resist Van Halen.

rlbond86

No offense, but I can't think of many men who would want to be with someone with such stringent requirements of them. You have basically a long list of "don't do this," and "don't do that," and your expectations are WAY high of us. Sometimes I forget to put the toilet seat down. Sometimes I feel like crap and just want to put stuff down on the floor. And often if I'm told something only once, I'll forget it. And you know what, maybe I'm going out on a limb, but I doubt many women would be able to tolerate your requirements either. So don't be disenchanted with us, because nobody's perfect.

Plan9

Amen. All her base are belong to me.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Jenna

There's a definite difference for me when looking for a guy.

If I'm looking for a guy who I want to become serious with...

- I need someone who is on the same page of control issues as me. Well, I'm ultra jealous and if my guy can't handle it, the relationship will fall apart.

-I like a guy who is goal oriented and at least planning on being realistically successful.

- I want a guy who makes me feel good about myself because I have a terrible self esteem.

- I want a guy who likes the same music that I do

- I want a guy that isn't too heavy into partying

- Great communicator, thus great sex.

- A guy who wants to have a family in the future.

- A guy who is caring and can be my best friend

If I'm looking for a fling I tend to go for "bad boys." Guys who end up being total fucking assholes.

Overall though, a guy has to be tall and not skinny. I mean, I'm not saying that I like guys who are "fat," but my boyfriend is 6'5 and was a football player, he's not a little guy.

SecretMethod70

(Note: all "you's" are meant in the general sense, though I do make a few specific references to language used in this thread)

I have to say, I find all these lists to be rather tangential to the actual issue of relationships. As MSD said, "in reality, most of it doesn't matter."

It's really quite simple when it comes down to it. First, people need to stop propagating this attitude that women are somehow "mysterious" or "special" or any other ridiculous adjective that puts women on a pedestal. Women, like men, are human beings. All human beings are complex creatures with things they like, things they dislike, and inherent contradictions. So long as there exists this attitude that men need to put in extra work to "understand women" - that women are, somehow, more complex when compared to the brutish and simple man - progress will not be made, on the individual or cultural scale. Women are not any more special or mysterious than men, and men are not any more brutish or simple than women. Putting women, as a whole, on a pedestal while castigating oneself as a "poor man," "lowly dreamer," or servant is, at best, unproductive. In reality, I think it's just plain destructive behavior if the goal is an honest relationship of equals.

That goal is ultimately what a lot of these lists boil down to by the way, despite mostly focusing on symptoms rather than causes. The specifics really aren't important. No sane person in an otherwise healthy relationship is actually going to care whether the toilet seat is left up or down. Whether cleaning duties are shared is only a symptom of greater issues and, as such, the specific point is irrelevant to creating more durable relationships. The same goes for most everything else in here. What is relevant is that all parties respect and communicate honestly with one another, that they are both willing to learn and grow from one another, and that they are not concerned with "keeping score" in their relationship. Everything else is simply a symptom of whether or not these things are true.

If you want women to be mysterious, keep telling yourself that they are. If you want a productive relationship, on the other hand, it's helpful to replace this binary view of the mysterious woman and the poor, confused, lowly man with a more equal worldview that is fully respectful to both sexes.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Plan9

(slams on the breaks, kicks you out of the car) "Baby, I was talking to my MOTHER... MOTHER... not some "sleazy hoe", as you so eloquently put it."

Jealously is such a kill-you-dead-twice personal self-esteem / self-worth issue and IMHO should never be put on someone else.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Jenna

Which is why I said I need someone who will make me feel good about myself. And is exactly why I drive my boyfriend nuts sometimes.

I've tried for 3 years and it's gotten a lot better. Luckily I found someone who can handle it.

Midnight

how about you go back and read what I wrote? I didnt ask you to put up with what I "require" I stated, and quite clearly I thought, that I was alone and fine with that.

xxxafterglow

I'm just gonna take a stab at this - it sounds like the beef over Midnight's list directly relates to tec's original point. There are some things about women that baffle men (like our behavior around that time of month...) and it seems that women can be a lot more introspective than men (our habit of noting things you may do only to bring them up a month later). It HAPPENS even in the tightest of relationships. Hence the entire section of the bookstore devoted to relations between the sexes.

If the men out there can explain why Sex in the City is such a great show, please stand up (the answer is not "shoes").

Point being, there are some fundamental differences in how our brains are wired.

Midnight's list should be taken with a grain of salt. Anyone who takes it as a literal make-or-break set of rules must have missed the underlying point.

I assume what Midnight is saying (in order) is that it's very NICE when our mate ...

1.) Respects and takes care of himself (job/grooming/debt)

2.) Likes to spend time with us after work so we can enjoy each other's company (winding down)

3.) Is willing to work out a compromise if something is important to us (vacuum)

4.) Allows us to be ourselves as we allow him to be himself (tupperware/ball game)

5.) Respects our stuff (grooming implements)

6.) Is considerate of our shared space and also notices when we have thoughtfully made a special place for his shoes and coat so he can always find them and doesn't trip over stuff in the dark hallway.

I don't think that's too much to ask and the list works both ways. Do you want to date some woman who refuses to get a job/shower, won't spend time with you, doesn't respect your needs/interests/records/golf clubs/special snacky food/tv programs/weekly poker game/baseball card collection/desire to own a Wii, PS3 AND XBox 360 etc., and is a slob that always leaves a mess?????

Of course there are ups and downs and sometimes you want to slob about cuz you're tired after a long workday (sometimes we do too) - we respect that. Hell, I'll even respect your period of unemployment cuz I want you to find a job you enjoy ... but there are also shitteous moochy people (of both sexes) out there that never grasp the concept of partnership and cohabitation. Most of the guys on this board are nice and intelligent - if you occasionally practice the things on the list, you've got nothing to complain about.

If you don't... well, by all means keep bitching about unreasonable expectations! I wish more of the sucky guys I've dated were up front about their inability to handle a serious relationship!

Anyway, it sounds like the animosity stems from a communication problem (huh, how novel) - e.g. how Midnight phrased it - and not what's actually on the list...

...which I feel demonstrates the reason tec started this thread in the first place - to forge better communication between the sexes.

So don't hate, appreciate.

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Uh huh her.

Midnight

Thank you xxxafterglow. YOU get it. *hug*

xxxafterglow

Hey Secret,

Women and men are different. It's not that we're more "special" or "mysterious" but we DO think differently and have different needs. That's the point of this thread.

By the way, I flush my used tampons and wrap my pads so you don't have to see a bloody menstrual mess all over the bathroom or in the trash. I appreciate it when you put the seat down because I don't want to look at the urine-splashed rim as I'm about to take a seat. It's not some grand battle-of-the-sexes thing. It's courtesy, man!

If you want a productive (hetero) relationship, you learn what makes your partner tick - including the nuances of the female sex (err... like the fact that we sit to pee - do you like to sit on a urine-y toilet when you take a monster shit?).

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Uh huh her.

JumpinJesus

Me want procreate. Me want woman who pretty.

What hard about that?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

ngdawg

This is just sad.
While I wouldn't advocate finding someone to make you feel shitty, how you feel about yourself must come from within. It's something to be discovered and when done so, embraced.
We are born alone, we die alone. We are all we have beginning to end and the only person we HAVE to live with that whole time....is ourself.



Not really...that's why pick-up artists are called "pick-up artists". I know some who need to just STFU and do what they do best. I also know people I could talk to for hours but really doubt they'd be great in bed. Once or twice, that was proven the case.


Bottom line, guys: Respect and acceptance. Looks change, although initially, we all want the eyes to have a treat; but what is one woman's eye candy is another's nightmare.

onodrim

Yes, they think differently, but it's not as huge of a difference as society likes to make out. Also, it's more of a gender issue (masculine vs. feminine) as opposed to a sex issue (male vs. female). And yes, it's important to learn "what makes your partner tick." I'd think not making blind assumptions based on their sex would be part of that. Not all men are inconsiderate slobs, and not all women are dainty and more "in tune," or introspective as you put it earlier. That's the main issue I take with this thread. There is no special skill required to communicate with women, you just communicate with them period.

__________________
"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides"
-Carl Sagan

xxxafterglow

Eh - sometimes you care enough about someone to deal with their jealousy issues... and most people in a healthy relationship eventually get over it, but ngdawg is right to point out that it's a personal journey.

Sorry onodrim, I've gotta play the biology card. Our bodies are different, our brains are different. I don't think anyone in this thread is promoting archaic gender tropes but I also think it's a disservice to ignore our differences and shunt us all under the "everybody communicate, everybody happy!" umbrella.

We live in a society that promotes gender differentiation, stereotypes, etc. Whether you like it or not, we are biologically and socially conditioned to be different. There isn't a special skill required to communicate - that's what we were trying to do here.

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Uh huh her.

SecretMethod70

Which is exactly the point...none of these specific issues have any meaning whatsoever, and they distract from what's actually important. Communicate and be courteous and the rest tends to fall into place. My relationship with onodrim - going on 8 years - didn't get where it is by assuming men and women are fundamentally different.

I made a point to use language that was already in this thread. I didn't make up the idea of calling men lowly, confused, poor, or servants - these are all characterizations that existed in this thread before I responded. "Women and men are different" is only accurate insofar as people are different, which is again exactly the point I was making. You asked "If the men out there can explain why Sex in the City is such a great show, please stand up (the answer is not "shoes")." Thing is, I don't know many women who can answer that. In fact, most women I know significantly dislike the show. Generalizing between men and women creates an "us vs them" mentality that is not conducive to a healthy relationship or good communication. It creates a paradigm for relationships that there will always be conflict and always be misunderstanding. Throw out the men vs women mentality and then real communication can take place. Communication which isn't based on any assumptions regarding how one thinks or ought to think because of what genitalia they have.

EDIT: heh, see? Onodrim and I - female and male - think pretty much the same on this issue. I didn't even know she was responding

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

xxxafterglow

Secret,

I just have to disagree with you. We're on a messageboard so we're limited in communication but please don't assume that I'm speaking on behalf of all women. Please don't assume that Midnight is speaking on behalf of all women, either.

I don't think you're getting that we're not playing the "us vs them" game, we're playing the "this is my world, here's what it's like" game.

While Sex and the City isn't for all women, it's geared TOWARDS women, it's about women and their issues. I was merely pointing out that our society crafts and promotes gender differences and it's pretty naive to act ignorant of this fact when you're talking about gender relations.

Men will never fully understand what it's like to be a woman (physically, socially, emotionally) and vice versa. That's why we have to talk.

And I really don't think the participants in this thread are taking notes for the almighty bible to understanding the sexes. We're just opening lines for communication and throwing out ideas.

Tec asked the question and women responded. And then a couple women agreed and a couple guys took offense. Tell me again about how we're all the same.

Men and women are biologically different. Men and women are socialized differently. Ergo, differences. That's all I can say, take it or leave it.

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack you - I suppose I'm defending my right to be a woman (and different from a man) in all its contexts. PS I also love Metric so props. One of the last cds I ever bought.
EDIT2: HA HA, I also really love PEACHES. Pff you guys.

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Uh huh her.

Jenna

I'm well aware of the fact that it's sad. I've dealt with it for awhile now. My feelings are getting better, it's helped that I have someone who I truly know loves me and thinks I'm the most beautiful person in the world. I don't understand why people are making comments about this. I'm not dumb. I am fully aware that I have a problem and that yes, it is rather sad.

And, any sexual experience is better with communication. I'm not speaking about pick up lines, I'm not talking about being suave, eloquent or wordy. I'm talking about being able to express what you feel and what you want to say.

JumpinJesus

I'm not being insulting when I say this because I'm participating in something I find pointless, but these types of threads are pointless.

They're pointless because there are certain types of people who will never ever ever be with other certain types of people. Women and men are all alike in that they're all predictable in that they all want someone to want them. Lists or books or websites or infomercials or anything else that tries to tell you how to get more women or men are scams and con jobs. The reality is that we cannot explain why we find certain people attractive while there are those to whom we would never give the time of day.

No amount of "Don't-piss-in-the-sink" lists will change that, regardless of how witty or wise we think them.

I've been attracted to such varieties of women that one would be hard pressed to find any commonality between them. What it comes down to is that we're all looking for some type of validity that we'd be accepted by those out of our leagues if only we had the magic passwords.

Face it, if you are constantly attracting the wrong type of person to the point where you need a list of what the other sex wants, then you need to figure out what is wrong with you, not the other sex.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

xxxafterglow

Some people are getting something out of it, the OP for instance.

Anyway, if you find it to be a pointless thread, make like a droid they're not looking for and move along.

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Uh huh her.

JumpinJesus

wouldn't that make me a stormtrooper? And aren't they always around where they're not wanted?

I said it was pointless, I didn't say it wasn't interesting.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

ngdawg

And if he was gone tomorrow?
It shouldn't be 'help', it should be a result. Yes, people who love us make us feel valued(it's the nature of humans to desire being a part of something) , but ultimately, it is the value we place on ourselves that will matter and carry us through and ultimately, bring love into our lives. Sometimes we need someone to help us see this-but we should never only see ourselves through another's eyes.
"I am of value not because he says so, but because I am worthy of being valuable to others."
I hope you find that. Really.

tecoyah

I must take issue with your opinion here, only in that while it may indeed be pointless to you, it is not pointless to others. Personally, I do not find any study of human psycology pointless, and am particularly fascinated right now with the male/female disconnect. But this of course is my own opinion...the difference is that I state it as such, tends to make things less confrontational, and me seem somewhat less an asshole.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

xxxafterglow

Stormtrooper: Let me see your identification.
Obi-Wan: [with a small wave of his hand] You don't need to see his identification.
Stormtrooper: We don't need to see his identification.
Obi-Wan: These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Stormtrooper: These aren't the droids we're looking for.
Obi-Wan: He can go about his business.
Stormtrooper: You can go about your business.
Obi-Wan: Move along.
Stormtrooper: Move along... move along.

Thanks IMDB.

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Uh huh her.

JumpinJesus

2 points for an around the back insult! We find what we want to find in our communications with people. If we seek to be insulted, we'll be insulted. I can't control those reactions in others.

I can however, offer my opinion, which is what I'm doing. I can't promise that I'll shave my head and buy a tambourine. I apologize if you find my style confrontational. it's not my intent. You don't like my style of posting. That's fine.


*****EDIT***** Just so you all know, tecoyah and I are joking around here. Don't get alarmed. We can have fun here, you know.

damn.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

SecretMethod70

Well, obviously I respect that you have that opinion, but my own life experiences with women have proved to me that, ultimately, women and men are equally complicated, equally difficult to understand, and require the exact same level of communication. Perhaps going into a relationship a man and woman may have different "worlds," but my point is that we choose whether or not to uphold that or break it down. When communication transcends male vs female, it leads to understanding and defining one another as people, and allows us to discover that we're really not as different as we tend to think.

Women are just as capable of being slobs, or liking sex, as men are. Throughout history, people have traditionally placed women on pedestals and highlighted differences. As insane as it sounds for us to hear him say it, when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claims that women are highly respected in Iran, he actually believes this. Oppressive cultures that require women to cover themselves up often do so because of misguided views regarding the power, mystery, and purity of womanhood. Claiming that women are cleaner, more courteous, more sensitive, or any of those other things strikes me as a slightly less offensive, more Western version of these same types of attitudes. Women in the West, because of the "differences" that we are taught as truths, are often afraid to vocalize their sexual fantasies and desires to their partner, because even in the West, women are not supposed to be as kinky or as sexual as men are. Not long ago, the president of Harvard essentially claimed that women were less involved in math and sciences because they're simply not designed that way. Here, again, we have this attitude that men and women "think differently."

We create our own truths and our own realities. We choose the nature of our relationships. We can continue to base our communication on preconceived notions about how we're "different," or we can move beyond that and learn to respect one another as individuals who are all equally capable of being clean, messy, sexual, caring, indifferent, or any other quality.

Anyway, glad to know we have similar tastes in music

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

tecoyah

Joking?....JOKING!


Of course you know....This means Wa.....Aw, shit...dropped my hat

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ngdawg

Ya know, I really hate to do this, but....
I gotta toss in the age card. Sorry, dude.
We're not all that 'complicated'. We are, in many ways, different-masculine to feminine as Ono put it. F'rinstance...
Men will never EVER experience monthly cramps and hormonal fluctuations. They won't even get them if their transexual. Men have a higher concentration of testosterone than women-that's a fact. And testosterone helps the libido, or lack thereof. Hormones affect behavior. Physiologically, the female brain is different in size, weight and distribution of function than the male brain.
Your 'experience' is defined as, well...your experience, which is Ono, school, mom and friends. At the risk of sounding like the female version of a pig, I have had more than my fair share of lovers (hate that word, really) and most of my friends, including two of my very best friends, are male. One is a sports freak, not very wordy; the other is a hopeless romantic who couldn't tell a Pittsburgh Steeler from a NASCAR Chevy. But they are both very very male. My one female best bud is more female than I am in many ways(I don't have anything in common with the mall-hopping soccer-mom types, which she is not).
My point? We are very different in many ways, not just culturally based. There are commonalities, yes, but if everything was common, you'd be dating a guy. But you're not and you're not because of the differences between you and yours, despite what you have 'in common'(including answering similarly, which you did because of the attractions that got you where you are now, not because everyone is not different).
Communication is great and very important, but it's not the be-all, end-all. As I said before, 'acceptance' matters and that includes the possible acceptance that there will always be inherent differences that no amount of open dialogue is going to change. Sometimes, things just are nods to Shani

JumpinJesus

This can be taken to politics so easily and you know it.

And....

It's so refreshing to finally hear one of your kind admit defeat.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

xxxafterglow

Thanks Ng - you really clarified the point I was trying to make.

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Uh huh her.

ngdawg

Hon, that wasn't defeat, that was bragging!

xxxafterglow

Maybe Jesus inadverdently proved it.... :-P

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Uh huh her.

Jenna

Thanks for your concern.

onodrim

Since you tossed it out there, I have to respond - Perhaps it is because of your age that you're more likely to defend the societal values you were raised with and are less willing to see things from another perspective. My parents and their generation, who are about the same age as you, are, generally speaking, more sexist than my generation. Yet my parents, and your generation, are less sexist than your parents generation. As we understand more about the world around us, thoughts and ideas change, there is a natural evolution in thought. Simply being older doesn't necessarily make you "more right."

I think you misunderstand my usage of those terms. I mean them as personality traits, not physiological facts such as male/female. A man can be very feminine and a woman can be very masculine.

Of course there are physiological differences between men and women, no one, myself included, is arguing that on a genetic level both sexes are 100% identical. And yes, Testosterone and hormones affect behavior, but both men and women have them to varying degrees. Also, using either as an excuse for bad behavior is just, well, an excuse.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm the only girlfriend that Secret has had, but, that's just not true. Also, you don't have to be someone's "lover" to make observations about their behavior.

Again, no one is claiming that men and women are identical. And sexual attraction is an entirely different discussion. I'm not sure how that's even relevant here.

Obviously in every relationship there are things about the other person that just "are" and you have to decide if you can accept them or not. But just assuming something is the way it is "because he's a guy" and letting it go isn't accepting that person at all. It's tolerating them at best.

I think the reason that so many women in this thread, and in general, are determined to hold to the thought that they are intrinsically different than men is because they like the feeling of superiority it gives them; they want to believe that just being a women somehow makes them more special. Society makes them believe they are above men and they don't want to let that go.

__________________
"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides"
-Carl Sagan

MrFriendly

It's scientific fact that women have 20% of their brain dedicated to language along, where as men have significantly less.

NG is on the money, there are differences that really can not be ignored. But every person is also different. People, are different.

One of the things I love about women so much is every one I've come across is so damn unique

__________________
You are not a slave

ngdawg

Doesn't make me more wrong either....
That's your opinion, but yours alone. I am superior only to those inferior to me I do not base that on gender. ( And my kids, raised to not be gender-biased, are, as young teens, very much so. This drag-racing, bike riding mom is trying to change that).
Actually, I was raised to toss a mean football, do autobody work and watch the KC Chiefs play. I cook a little, clean even less. Your assumptions are off the mark, again, based on your own observations in your world.
And, actually, sexuality/attraction is the basis of the thread-it's the understanding of our own innate and distinctive sexuality that's being discussed. Without sexuality, we'd be earthworms.
No one has excused any behavior based on anything. Again, your assumption is noted. Wrong, but noted.
I didn't say you were the only one anyone had, I said the 'experience' is limited-as, actually mine is because I don't plan on dying tomorrow, but the mileage on this engine is higher . Most of what you've stated is generationally-based assuming about how someone's been 'raised', when, in fact, you have no clue how anyone was, unless it's been discussed.
Again, you have to base your opinions on your experience. We all do. Some of us are just a tad more 'experienced'-not necessarily politically correct, to be sure, but experience forms opinions. The trick is to decipher which is worthwhile. If you can only think that an entire group is thinking a certain way because of their generation and not take into account their experiences, you only limit yourself.