Karby

why do people separate the catholic faith from the rest of christianity? i thought catholics believed in Jesus, God, Mary, Joshef (sp?), Bible, etc.
i'm not trying to be a jerk, but i've been wondering about this for some time now, and i still can't seem to find any plausible answers.

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anti fishstick

catholicism is still a part of christianity.

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brianna

i think the main separation was caused when the protestants (via martin Luther) left the catholic church over a number of grievances. You can read Luther's Ninety-Five Theses: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...inetyfive.html

Today it seems that the biggest complaints that protestants have with the catholic faith is the idolization of the pope and the saints.

pinklily

some of christianity is divided because some sects believe in the holy trinity and some do not.

Lebell

Question: which ones do not beleive in the Holy Trinity?

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SecretMethod70

The most unfortunate thing about that, and this is coming from a Catholic, is that I think a lot of people really don't understand how much importance, or lack of, Catholicism actually puts on the pope and the Saints, or the way in which the importance is placed...and I include many Catholics in this as well. I could go on a great deal about those misunderstandings but this isn't the place to do so. As a simple point of example, regarding papal infallibility, that is something that only applies under strict conditions - called speaking ex cathedra - and happens almost never. The position of the pope (meaning all popes, not any one particular) has only spoken ex cathedra once since the doctrine of papal infallibility was written up at the first Vatican Council in 1870.

On subject, there really isn't any reason Catholicism should be seperated from the rest of Christianity by any consideration. I think, really, in America it's a matter of practicality. Most of America is used to "Christianity" in reference to a protestant religion. So, Catholicism is named seperately to distinguish it from what America is used to being exposed to as far as Christianity. That's pure conjecture. Ultimately, on the important points, there's little to no difference.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Xenomorph

Some Christian sects believe in "Arianism", which is a non-Trinitarian philosophy the propped up in the 4th century that basically states that the three entities of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are entirely seperate entities. It teaches that the Father is somehow more divine than Jesus, so it is regarded as incorrect in my own branch of Christianity, Catholicism, and in most other mainline Protestant and Orthodox churches.

Catholicism basically teaches that almost all churches that claim to be Christian are indeed Christian, with the notable exception of the LDS church. People who have been baptized into the Lutheran or Anglican churches, for example, do not need to be baptized if they wish to become Catholic. They are, by our standards, effectively already Christian.

The main problem that some Protestant sects (the ever-vocal Southern Baptist Convention and the Jack Chick-ites that it can attract are probably the most obvious example) have with us is that we accept Chuch Tradition alongside the Bible as the infallible instructions of God. With these teachings come the many problems that some Protestants have with the communion of Saints, the role of Mary, the process of entering Heaven, transubstantiation, and almost everything else that has been a point of objection.

Catholics basically believe that, although the Bible is divinely inspired, it doesn't interpret itself. The Bible is quite ambiguous at a great many points, and almost seems to contradict itself at others. No individual human being could possibly "crack" it, even if he or she lived in monastic contemplation from the age of reason until death. We barely even live for a century, at best, and there simply isn't enough time.

So, we have an organization of 1.1 billion-odd people that's been around for almost two millenia to work on it. We accept the conclusions of the magisterium, the interpreting and teaching arm of the clergy, as inspired fact. Most Protestant organizations take a more individualistic approach to interpreting the Bible.

This is a completely in-a-nutshell version of the Catholic take on it. Again, very few Christians are at each other's throats. Jesus quite explicity stated that Christians aren't to fight each other. Still, your concerns are valid, Karby. Some organizations (and people) continue to be quite vocal regarding Catholicism's position relative to other Christian sects.

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Lebell

I would argue that anyone who doesn't believe in the Trinity is by definition not Christian, since it is the belief in Jesus' divinity that defines a Christian.

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SecretMethod70

Yes and no. I agree, in the sense that I accept it for the same reasons that the multiple councils debating the matter decided that it must be true, over many many debates. (Those reasons aren't really important here so I won't bother getting into them.) But, the belief in the Trinity and Jesus' divinity is only a core part of Christianity because of the decisions of these early councils as the church was forming. It took a few hundred years for Christianity to take the form it has today - of Jesus being somehow fully Himself but fully God, somehow fully human yet fully divine, etc. The church was really only forced to look at and come to a decision regarding these issues by people who taught things - before it was understood that they shouldn't be taught - that their instincts told them were not true. Most variations take one accepted truth of the church so far that it denies another.

Gnostics, for example, believed that "God" was the divine Creator God and that "Jesus" was the divine Redeemer God. Two God's working against each other. As has been mentioned, Arius taught - before the issue was addressed, although he continued to believe and teach this after his teachings were debated and officially rejected - that Jesus was not fully God. And then there were those later on that thought that Jesus was not fully human, so the church had to get together and debate that and come up with a response to it.

The point is, while I agree from a standpoint that the reason it is seen the way it is is because it is necessary for it to be the case in Christianity, it was not always so clear and it never will be - that's why they're called Mysteries. So, there will always be Christians who, in their effort to grasp beyond the Mystery and understand what can't be understood, take one of these viewpoints of accepting one point of the Mystery so much that they reject another.

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Thagrastay

Karby-
Here is the Christian take on it.
I do not recognize Catholicism as being Christian at all, but as being a carry-over and cross-breeding of a multitude of various ideas.
Basically, It has borrowed heavily from Juadaism, and you can see why- The Pope replacing the Hebrew Hig Priest and the Cardinals, Bishops, etc. replacing the Levites. The Vatican has replaced the Hebrew Temple, even in its design, except the Pope, who is the Vicar of Christ sits in the Messiah's chair until the Messiah returns.
As the Vicar of Christ, the Pope or High Priest, wears the Garments and makes Priestly decrees which are infallible, because every word he utters comes stright from the mouth of G*D Himself.
The Book of Hebrews in the New Testamnet states plainly that Jesus alone is now our High Priest and He alone fulfills that role in Heaven.
The decision to move the Temple from Jerusalem to Rome is questionable as well.
Mary did not ascend into heaven but remained in the care of the Apostle John until she died. She was buried and will be resurrected along with everyone else at the Judgement. The elevation of Mary, the Mother of Jesus to a place that is nearly that of an equal to one of the Trinity is in the eyes of most Christians, blasphemous. Mary did not die a virgin, but went on to have more children and more sons as well, one of whom was James, the author of the Book of James and the Patriarch of the church in Jerusalem. Remember that Mary (Miriam) was a nice Jewish girl, and the scriptures tell us that she did not know her husband until after Jesus was born. The scriptures tell us as well that she and her sons came to get Jesus one day and when He was informed the His motrher and brother were witing outside to see Him, Jesus responded: "Who is my mother? And who are my brothers? I tell you tthe truth- anyone who serves the Lord is my mother and my brothers."- Hardly a ringing endorsement for the Queen of Heaven.
There is no Biblical case whatsoever for th idea of Purgatory. It is wholly an invention and most likely one created to make money for the Cathedrals. Concerning the hereafter, Jesus stated quite plainly "It is given to a person once to die, and then comes the Judgement." This plainly says that after we die we are judged. Not sent to a phantasmal place to float until we are prayed or bought out of there. This is quite akin to the idea of Karma.
Praying to saints and statues and idolatry. As Christianity has it's very essence and roots in Judaism, and the Ten Commandments of Judaism explicitly prohibit Idilotry, Praying to statues would be a no-brainer. But for some reason, this has been over looked by the Catholic church, and most Catholic Cathedrals are loadxed with statues and idols and candles and places for people to kneel and pray at altars in front of these things. According to G*D, this is Blasphemy.
The Bible Plainly teaches that "we are saved by GRACE through FAITH, and that not of ourselves." It was this tenet that Martin Luther took great issue with and festered over. The Catholic Church maintains that you must earn salvation.
I could go on and on, but why bother. The differences between the Catholic Church and the Instruction of the Bible and the commandments of G*D are too numerous to list. Jesus commanded that we call no man Father, except our Father who is in Heaven, but every priest is called Father, and the Pope is called Our Holy Father. Was Jesus kidding? Lying? Stupid? The Universal Church is not a Christian establishment any more than the LDS church is. You will find in every cathedral and hospital and catholic establishment you go to a statue of the Messiah hanging on a cross. Forever crucified there. He is no longer there. They forget that He is RISEN! He is Risen and coming back soon and thereis a pope in His chair with a funny hat who has been amassing great wealth and not using that wealth to feed the hungry or poor or help the needy. Cathedrals of gold and silver and paintings and chalices and rukles and regulations and there will be answers demanded.

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asaris

Thagrastay -- much of what you say is false, and I don't think it's appropriate for you to label it "the Christian take on it". It might be your take, or your churches take, but it's not the Christian take, because there are Christians who disagree with it. I am not a Catholic, but over the past few years I've lived with various Catholics, so I have a pretty good idea what they believe and why. So to cover your points:

So Catholicism borrowed heavily from Judaism. Isn't Christianity a Jewish religion? And the pope is hardly a high priest -- he is an apostle. And as an apostle, he has the duty to report the will of God.

Most of your points about Mary depend on matters of interpretation. It's hardly a basis to exclude Catholics from the fold of Christianity, if they hold to the orthodox doctrine, that she is "full of grace" but not divine.

Catholics do not pray to saints, or Mary for that matter. They talk to them, and ask them to intercede for them before God, much like we might ask our friends to pray for us.

The Catholic church also believes that we are saved by Grace through faith, but they do not draw the distinction between justification and sanctification that we do. We believe that once you believe, you are saved, but you need to work to become more holy. Catholics believe that salvation is a lifelong (and post-life) process, where one is not sent to heaven until one is perfect. But we do not earn our salvation.

Sure Jesus said that we should call no man father. But what do you call your Dad? He was using hyperbole, a figure of speech he uses a lot, to get across the point that we are ultimately responsible to God, not the priests.

Certainly there are abuses of wealth and power in the Catholic Church, historically and today. But that does not mean the organization as a whole is corrupt -- any religious organization, by its nature, will have its bad seeds.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

raeanna74

From what I see the protestants do not believe that anyone other than Christ or God can hear our prayers. They also believe that any tradition that the church follows that is not expressly mentioned in the Bible is not a "correct" tradition. I was discussing this with a Catholic friend of mine recently. They asked why I do not participate in Lent. Lent as practiced by the Catholic church is a tradition that has grown over the years. It is not expressed in the Bible as necessary in order to earn salvation. In fact the denial of certain things for only a short period of time (other than fasting) is not requested in the Bible at all. This is just one of the many doctrinal differences between Catholocism and Protestantism. Coming from a Protestant background we felt almost irritated that we would be lumped together with Catholics as Christians because our beliefs differ so greatly. We were even told once by a friends priest who was visiting their home while we were there that if he could he would have us burned at the stake for our "Bible packin' Protestantism." There can be a lot of differences between the two sides of Christianity and there can be a lot of animosity.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

asaris

That is certainly true; I didn't mean to indicate that my beliefs were what all protestants believe. Of course, I wish they would, but that's another debate. But most protestants don't think that every tradition needs to be from the Bible. Do you sing hymns? Are they found in the Bible or were they written much later? What language is the service in? Of course, I have difficulties, as a protestant, that belief in things not found in scripture is required, but I don't think that's enough to make Catholics heretics, as long as nothing they believe contradicts what the Bible teaches.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

SecretMethod70

Wow, I don't mean to get all bent outta shape, but did you not read what I posted earlier? Almost nothing the pope says is considered infallible.

Um...Catholics don't pray to anyone but God. One may pray in front of a statue, keeping the subject of the statue in mid in their prayers, or one may ask the Saints to pray for them as well, just as one would ask a living person to pray for them, but one does not pray to Saints or hold them in any reverence similar to God whatsoever.

Anyways, these points were pretty sufficiently addressed for the most part already, and what wasn't really just comes down to interpretation, not outright denial as you'd have one believe.

Unfortunately, yeah, there can be some animosity between protestant Christians and Catholics, but I'd say that anyone who shows animosity towards either side is not, in that act, representative of a Christian but only representative of themselves. Christian life is not capable of animosity.

Ultimately, I think the most important thing is that, while there may be some things that are perceived to be "great differences," the most important things are shared by all (technically speaking, almost all) Christianity. Catholic Christians and protestant Christians alike both hold Jesus to be the son of God and his teachings to be of utmost importance.

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CSflim

SecretMethod70; my, recently deceased, grand-aunt was a catholic nun, and she prayed to Mary and various saints as well as God.
Presumably, like you said, she didn't hold them in reverance like she did God...but she still prayed to them.

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Lebell

It's a fine line, but no Catholic I know of thinks that it is the Saint that holds any power; rather that their power comes solely from God.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SecretMethod70

CSFlim, yes, I suppose we have a tendancy to call it praying in both circumstances, but as Lebell pointed out they are not considered to have any power at all. The common understanding of the word pray implies that the person is considered to hold power, so I didn't go into the fact that the word may be used by Catholics in both circumstances to avoid confusion.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

MSD

There is a difference between venerating someone and worshipping them. This is why a lot of people misunderstand Catholic practice and denounce them as "Mary-worshipping heathens"

Thagrastay

The question which began this thread ran along the lines of wanting to know the difference between Catholics and Christians.

Regardless of what contemporary Catholics may believe about his authority, that single thing which most clearly distinguishes the Catholic entity from the Christian world, and has for 1700 years, is the Papacy.
Catholics are not Christians. They make that distinction themselves.
The Pope is not an Apostle, whose succession goes all the way back to Peter, though that is as lovely a tale as that of Mary's ascension and her dying a virgin. Peter was beheaded in crucifed in Rome, by the Romans- the same Romans who now claim to run the Holy Empire using his same keys. The Pope is not AN Apostle, he is THE apostle- he is The VICAR of CHRIST.
The term VICAR means: One who acts in the place of another, with all the same authority until the first's return.
In other words, Since Jesus was G*D, and He is away for the moment, while He is away, the Pope is acting in His stead, which for the moment makes the Pope no less than G*D on earth.
to put this more in context,
This was the purpose of the Hebrew High Priest, serving in the capacity of speaking for G*D in cases where it were necessary. But with the advent of Pentecost and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, that was no longer needed. The Teacher and Comforter that Jesus had promised had arrived, and now the Holy Spirit was made manifest to ALL belivers, not just a select few.

Now I'm going to change direction here and re-approach the Idol worshipping subject once again. I, too have many, many friends who are Catholics. In fact, I have married into a Catholic family, which includes nuns, Jesuits and priests as well as lay persons et al. I must confess, coming from an ignorant and rather heathen background myself, I did not understand much of the Catholic faith, but having studied Hinduism for a time, I noticed many similarities in much of their approaches to things concerning idol worship. At any rate, I had only become a Christian, perhaps 3 years before, and was studying the book of Leviticcus, when my wife asked me to accompany her to her families annual mass for her dead grand parents.
At the time, I didn't understand the political significance of this endeavor- but I digress- I paid rapt attention to what was going on, watching everything that took place, and what I saw was straight out of the book of Leviticcus. It was then that I understood- the whole transubstantiation thing- everything. This was not a Christian communion, it was a Hebrew sacrifice.

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Xenomorph

I believe by "the rest of Christianity", Karby most certainly holds the belief that Catholics are Christian. Your perspective is valued, but please don't pervert the purpose of this thread.

I don't know how to politely refute this. You're wrong. Ask a Catholic if he's Christian some time. A bus is a car, a car is not necessarily a bus. So it is with the terms "Catholic" and "Christian". This is not a difficult concept.

Do you know how frequently the pope celebrates the Sacrament of Reconciliation? Weekly. Regardless of your position on the legitimacy of the Sacraments, the pope's actions clearly illustrate that he certainly doesn't believe he's a perfect being, serving in the place of God. Nor do Catholics. The pope is a human and a sinner. He would not have needed the guidance of the Church if he were perfect, but he isn't.

You complain about adopted Hebrew concepts when you won't spell out the word "God"?

I don't see how the fact that Peter died is getting in the way of the belief that the pope is the his successor. I'm pretty sure a great majority of the people who began successions that have lasted for two thousand years are quite dead.

Perhaps the people who now maintain an organization from the city of Rome are different than the people who did so 2000 years ago? The dogs of the Roman emperors during the era of Christian persecution are not the college of Cardinals.

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Thagrastay

To say that the Catholic Institution is a wholly Christian endeavor is ridiculous. So much dogma has been added to the Word of GOD under the auspices of the latitude of interpretability that it has made a sham of the fundamentals of the foundations of the faith.
Adding the Aprocrypha was haughty enough- Hebrew books that the Hebrews themselves do not recognize as Canon- but the addition of idolotry, emporer worship, purgatory, original sin, and all the other non-biblical stautes and regulations and what you are left with is this:
The Roman Empire was not conquered. It simply became the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman emperors traded in their laurel wreths and Isis worship for Tall hats and the worship of Mary, the Queen of Heaven.
Rome is still the City of 7 hills and it's colors are purple and scarlet and the Apostle whose keys it pretends to hold and whose mantle it pretends to wear, is the very same Apostle it Crucified Upside Down in the very city of the Vatican.
You cannot serve 2 Gods.
As Joshua demanded- "Chose you this day what God you will serve! As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!"
The Lord's name is Yeshua and He is the High Priest and King of Kings. We need no other intercessor. Look to your Bibles and see for yourselves.

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SecretMethod70

Actually, the surviving sects of Judaism don't, but at the time it was added there were plenty of sects that accepted the Apocrypha.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

taliendo

The bold face, all capitatilized "LORD" in your quotation is in reference to the letters YHWH, commonly translated as Yahweh from the original Hebrew language. The Hebrews were too fearful to actually write out the complete name of their God, and so after many years of translation we are left with, at best, some man's educated guess.

And as for your arguement, I find it a bit pitiful to make such a bold and blatant disregard for the people of Catholic faith. I am a Christian, I grew up Pentecostal and was taught the arguements against the Catholic church that you suppose, but upon visiting a few churches myself I found that the service was very reverent and full of the Holy Spirit. To think that people who are truly pursuing a relationship with God cannot find Him around a bit of Dogma is quite absurd.

If you earnestly seek Truth - Truth will find you.

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Thagrastay

I am very aware of what the Hebrew name of God is and the reverence they show for it. The believers in within the Catholic institution are no doubt full of the Holy Spirit in spite of the Institution itself. But that is only further testamony to the Grace and glory of God.
Jesus in His days on earth, was faced with a Jewish Temple and High Priesthood filled with similar dogma and coruptness and He referred to those who were in charge and had dominion over the the Temple as a "brood of vipers," "hypocrites", and "whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones". He demanded that the Priests and priesthood of His day had so loaded down the common Jews with rules and regulations and traditions that it made them "Twice as fit for hell as they (the priests) were themselves". These were the words of the Meschiach Himself! The bottom line was, when tradition and dogma replaces the teaching and word of GOD, then the tradition and Dogma are expendable. Not the other way around. Jesus taught that "he road is wide, but the gate is narrow. Many are called, but few are chosen." It is the responsibility of the church to ensure that this is clearly understood and that as many as possible get through that gate and get chosen. Not through Dogma or man-made tradition but by the direct teachings of Meschiach.

I agree- Those who seek will find. By all means- seek on!

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Rekna

I'm dissapointed with people judging christian religions in this thread. You are not God therefore don't judge others. Who is right who is wrong... who knows. We cannot hope to fully understand God or is teachings but we can get the main ideas. These main ideas run through out all christian religions.

Mark 9:38-41 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us. For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

There are many translations to this verse in the bible but all of them seem to give the same message, that just because one is not in your group, as long as he is doing the lords work he will not lose his reward. Denomination is not what is important, instead it is your actions that matter. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior? Do you live your life based on the commandments? ect.

Every denomination has it's differences, some I agree with some I don't agree with. However, I have accepted that I cannot say if they are right or wrong for I did not write the bible, God has never told me exactly what to believe. Through time the bible has lost meaning through the hand of man either accidentially or purposly, but it has happend. Do not look at a single verse to judge the meaning of the bible, look at the big picture because that is what is important and one part of the bible that would be impossible for man to currupot.

I try to attend different churches often, I was born and raised a luthern, lately I have attended a baptist church, soon I'll attend a catholic for a while. I believe you need to listen to all the churches to know what God really wants us to do. The only thing I dislike about the catholic church is that they have closed communion which means I cannot get communion there.

Jesus tought us to love one another, so stop hating your own brothers in christ and start loving them. For we are all God's childern.

SecretMethod70

Very intelligent words Rekna. Thank you.

And, communion in the Catholic Church, while it may be "closed," is based off the honor system. Do what you feel is right, no one's going to stop you (at least not in my experiences).

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Rekna

It is an honor system but I try to always honor the customs of the churches I attend.

Catholics arent the only ones with closed communion though so it isn't a gripe against catholics, just closed communion in general.

tecoyah

If I read your above posts correctly, then I too, as a Pagan, am saved by your christ. I use different names, and word the commandments in my own way....but the "main ideas" are exactly the same.
I would even venture to say that as far as ritual and adherence to love and compassion, my faith is closer to catholisism than most christian sects can claim. Yet many christians would consider me doomed(yes they have used that word) and holding a ticket to some flaming pit.
Guess I see the catholic faith as more accepting and open minded when it comes to the individual, regardless of the dogma.
Whereas many christain faiths follow blindly one version or another of somebodys translation of a conglomeration of somebody elses translation of a group of books that were consolidated by yet another group into the guidelines for salvation.

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Rekna

But do you accept Jesus Christ as your savior?

That is one of the key points repeated throughout the bible.

As for catholics being more accepting that really depends on who you talk to. I know some that are and some that arent. My roommates fiance just decided to break up with him after many years because he was luthern and not catholic which meant he would go to hell according to her and her mom (so many people have misconstrued views about who goes to heaven and hell). All I can say about who goes to heaven and hell really is that I cannot know who goes and doesn't. Only God knows.

God can and will save anyone he wants to.

tecoyah

So....as I do not "accept" jesus the christ as my personal savior, am I going to hell in your eyes?Or am I just not in your club? This kind of issue is the reason many people cannot be a part of christianity, a true catch 22.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Lebell

Not directed to me, but as a Christian, I'll answer.

Who goes to heaven and who goes to hell is not mine to judge.

My own belief however is that there are probably several roads to heaven.

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Rekna

Lebell said it, It is not my decision to judge. In know way can I know if there is a single road or multiple roads to heaven. According to the bible accepting Jesus as your savior is a way to get to heaven. Is it the only way? Only God knows.

Rekna

one more thing, personally I feel Gandi is in heaven and he was not Christian.

Thagrastay

According to the Bible, there is but One way into tHeaven and as distasteful as that may be, it is through Jesus, the Messiah. This is not something that any Christian has concocted or wanted to concoct, because every single Christian has had to wrestle with and face this very same idea. It is very clearly dilineated throughout the New testament-"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in Himshould not perish but have everlasting life". That is but one example, These are not easy words at first. How does one reconcile themselves to the exclusivity of this road? At first it is difficult. Until one considers the facts and truth of the matter that sin was brough into the world on the back of one perfect man, and so it would take one perfect man to carry it out again. But there are no perfect men left. None that is, unless God Himself were willing to come down here and do it Himself. And then when one stops to consider what it would take for a person who claims to be God, to prove that He was in fact just that, then the things that come to mind would be:
He'd have to be able to:
Walk on water, command the elements, create something from nothing, feed the multitudes, heal the sick, cure the blind, raise the dead, forgive sins, establish laws and covenants, sacrifice Himself for the good of all mankind, die for all the sins that ever werer or ever would be, and be able to raise Himself from the dead.
God could do those things.
God WOULD do those things.
And He's do them for you and me. without us asking Him to.
What I have come to find out about God and this exclusive path thing is that it is not God or Christians who are the problem here. I say that because before I became a Christian I had a real problem with the whole idea. What I came to find out was that the problem was mine. It was my pride that stung me and hard.
I have heard this similar statement reported nearly unanimously among christians as well. That the one thing that prevented them from objectively looking at the idea of the savior Messiah as the only way to Heaven was that it bothered their pride.
The world has many way to do things and has many ways get things, but as far as Heaven and the Bible go, Jesus is the only way in. That is not a christian opinion, that is God's decision. God has decided that. The Christians are only trying to get as many as they possibly can through the door and into heaven.
You see, Christians are not some wonderful, band of speacial sainted worker bees set aside for glory and promotion because of their holiness and devout righteousness! Far from it!
Christians are saved! By the Grace of God through Faith in Messiah Jesus, and that isn't of ourselves.
All Christians are is Forgiven. Jesus' blood and sacrifice is what has made the difference between heaven and hell, not some great work of accomplishment or piety.
Jesus is the WAY. not the Christians.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

SecretMethod70

Ironically, that's my exact point although my belief greatly differs from yours. What I hold to be true is that Jesus/God loves humanity so greatly, passionately, and unconditionally that even those who may not believe in the words of Jesus as their savior are saved by Him by having an openness in their hearts, whatever they may call it.

Tecoyah, you've basically read my points correctly. One thing that's important to make clear is that the Catholic church doesn't say that being Pagan or anything else is equally as good as being Christian, at least in the sense of exposure to God's Truth, but that what it says is that while the fullness of God's Truth isn't located in other religions, parts of His Real Truth are invariably located in all religions to some degree. Thus, God finds ways to touch everyone in varying degrees and ways so that everyone has the capability to be one with Him - whether they call Him "God" or whatever. BUT, that's not to say that accomplishing this is just as easy for someone in another religion as it is for someone in Christianity. It may be easier, and it may be more difficult, depending on the point of reference. A lot of this is addressed in some of my posts in this thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=47302

Rekna: again, all points I agree with Personally, I believe that it's necessary that being a "certified member" of the Christian faith is not the "only way" because it is, in my opinion, the only way to avoid contradiction with other central teachings of Christianity. That's not to say though that Christianity doesn't perhaps provide the best opportunity when followed correctly. But, ultimately, the point is, how the Hell should I know? I'm not God. That's ultimately what faith is about, working with what has been revealed to you and finding your own path towards God in accordance with this.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Rekna

I have a few questions for those that think Jesus is the only way.

Disclaimer: I have to say this so someone doesn't think i'm going against Jesus. I love Jesus Christ, he is my personal savior, ever since I accepted Jesus as my savoir my life has continually gotten better and it is not a coincidance.

Ok here is my question

Do babies go to hell? Most christains will answer no to this.

Do babies born into a muslim family go to hell? (What is the difference between a baby born in a christan and muslim family?)

At what age do babies need to have accepted Jesus as their personal savior in order to be saved? Or at what age are muslim babies condemed?

There are many people throughout the world that have never had a chance to learn about Jesus. They have not been exposed to his teachings, why would a perfectly good God send someone thats only fault is where he was born to hell. Afterall God decided where that person was born in the first place.

I love to point out Gandi, he is one of the most curagious and life altering person ever born. He lived a life of self sacrafice in order to bring peace and harmany to the world. He lived a christain life even though he was not christain. What faults does he have and how could a perfectly good God send him to hell after all he has done for the world?

Rekna

I thought about this a lot last night and something occured to me that I had never though about before.

During mankinds darkest moments we crucified Jesus. Those that crucified him did not believe in him. They did not think that he was thier savor. They didn't even believe he was a prophet. But yet when Jesus was on the cross he prayed for them saying "Forgive them father they know not what they do". Why would Jesus pray for the forgivness of those who do not believe in him if believing in him was the only way to heaven?

We have people here who strongly disbelieved in christ but yet Jesus asked that they be forgiven. Now why would Jesus not ask the same for people who do not believe in him but live a good life?

Thagrastay

Babies don't go to hell. The age of accountability is 12 for males, 13 for females as it was with the Hebrews for Bar and Bat Mitzvahs. That's why we also have confirmation classes at those ages. Jesus repeatedly placed children on His knee and said that The Kingdom was reserved and made for such as these. The idea of sending babies to Hell and infant Baptism was a Catholic idea perverted from the Hebrew tradition of dedicating a child to be raised in the ways of the Temple and Laws and ways of God. Then the Bar/Bat Mitzvah which came later when the child declared in their own voice that they chose to follow the Law and God of their own desire.
By the time we all reach the age of accountability, we have sinned. Once we have sinned, we are condemned. It makes no difference whether we come from a christian, muslim, taoist, pagan, atheist or hindu home. The Lord tells us that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. and that the wages of sin is death. We are all condemned.
God has planted within us all a conscious, wherein all of us naturally know the difference between right and wrong. That is why no matter where we go, rules are universal when it comes to stealing and killing and adultery and such. Without So much as a burning bush, we all recognize these things as being wrong and have established laws for them.
For those people who have not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God will jusge them according to their consciences and what they knew to be right and wrong and how they conducted their lives.
Ghandi Knew of Jesus and rejected Him outright. For all his great intentions, Ghandi was not a perfect man and died in his sins, rejecting the One man who could have saved him.
Jesus prayed for His enemies because that is what He told us to do. He came here to show us how to live and how to do what we are supposed to do. Jesus is the Son of God. God is Love. Jesus is nothing less. Jeswus loved us so much He allowed us to do that to Him.
Please understand, it was not the nails that held Him upon that cross. At any moment He could have come down from there had He wanted. He stayed up there of His own will and through sheer Love of us. You and I. When He was asking God to forgive them for they know not what they do, He was asking God to forgive you and I as well.
God tells us that our best and greatest accomplishments are like filthy rags in His eyes.
There is nothing we can do that can compare to what Has already been accomplished on the cross. We cannot earn our way into heaven. It has already been done. Gos paid for our way into Heaven with His own blood. He will accept nothing less or different. We cannot barter our way in, or beg our way in or buy our way in. The way in has already been provided. All we must do is humble ourselves before the King and accept that He has accomplished for us what we could not do oueselves, and ask Him to let us in, in Jesus Name, and He will.
This is too hard for some, because it means swallowing their pride. And it is more important to have their pride than to enter heaven in humility. But God Himself was willing to be humbled to Get us into Heaven.
Still, Hell will be filled with the arrogant.
You will find no humble among their numbers there.

There are no good lives.
All have sinned and fallen short.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

Rekna

In the bible does it say the age of accountability anywhere? If so where? Does the bible say that those who have not been exposed to Jesus will be judged according to character? If so where?

tecoyah

Do you have any idea just how arrogant that post is.....fully insulting and degrading. For you to blatantly state as fact , information that can at best be considered as second hand dictation is quite interesting in the context of the last lines of your post.
I would say you have damned youself, if you truly believe your own post.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha