Double D

Current situation is this:
Just got home from a two-week vacation. Left my 20 y.o. son home alone as opposed to making him find alternate housing for the duration. Why think of making him leave? Because every time I leave him home alone, he throws parties, tears the house up, damages furniture, stains the carpets, leaves things filthy--just shows a complete disregard for our home.

Quick history on my son. Legally declared a juvenile delinquent at age 16 after many minor run-ins with the law, drugs, shoplifting, curfew violation.
Also at age 16, as an unlicensed, uninsured driver, he took our car and hit another boy in a car... and fled the scene. Was incarcerated in a drug-rehabiliatation center/jail for three months. Missed too much school while in the the treatment center (also was chronically truant from high school prior to getting sent to center). So when released from the treatment center, dropped out of high school at age 17.
Does not go to college.
Works as little as possible.
Does nothing to help out around the house.
Pays little to no room/board, though before leaving
for our trip. we told him it, as well as a full time job, was necessary beginning this month.

So here I am, just drove 725 miles straight thru to get home tonight, looking forward to crawling into my nice bed and the first thing I'm confronted with is the bed completely stripped of its bedding. He had used my bed--- the condoms in the waste basket tell me he had sex in it--and this isn't the first time. Ick.
My bedroom lamp was knocked over, leaving the lampshade broken.

The cedar chest, where I keep my linens, has been scraped on several edges down to the bare wood.
There's lots of filth throughout the house, but here is the real kicker:
He's taken my freakin' car again!

I accidently left my car keys here and he's taken the car to wherever, without any insurance or permission. I don't know where he is, don't know when he's coming back.

He was told in no uncertain terms that if he messed up in any way he would be asked to leave, and this is what I intend to do when I see him. If the car isn't home by the morning, I'll file a report and maybe get some help in tracking him/it down.

(His bio-father has been out of the picture since my son was a baby, I was a divorced mom for about 7 years then met his stepdad when my son was 8 years old. Not much of a relationship there--which was both of their choices.)

I really can't deal with this kid any more. He has this sense of entitlement paired with a real lack of conscience for his actions.

Any suggestions or comments would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

Konichiwaneko

I honestly feel for you. I can't give a solid answer as I was taught to respect the rights/properties of others when I was young. Mostly my parents.

I believe personally it's time to live your own life. He's 20 now, and he should go out on his own. You aren't getting any younger, and you need to live your own life also.

I remember your picture on the exhibition forum, you had a pretty smile. It's not pleasing to think that smile is turned upside down, mostly by a family member.

Good luck.

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irseg

So, why are you asking if you should kick him out of the house?! Sounds like anything you tell him means basically nothing because you don't necessarily enforce punishment or otherwise do what you say you will, which undoubtedly goes a long way to explain why he is the way he is.

20 is too old to still be living with you. Kick his ass out. Maybe when he has to work so he can afford to pay his rent and bills, he will shape up and learn some responsibility.

Double D

I suppose I'm asking if kicking him out is the right thing to do.

I have enforced punishment however, tho' maybe not as consistantly as I could've.
I was the one that petitioned the court to declare him a delinquent. Otherwise there would have been no consequence for his stealing & smashing up the car, because it is his *parent's* car.

In all honesty, it is tough for me to punish him. I keep wishing that he'll grow a conscience, so I won't have to *kick his ass out.* But I just can't ignore this.
I guess I'm just looking for confirmation from someone objective, that this is the best and most reasonable thing to do.

-Anders

From what you have posted, i don't think he's going to change in the near future.

If i were his father(Mother in your case) i would give him one month to find a place to stay, and when that month was over cut him off, lock the doors throw his shit out on the lawn.

I know this would be tough, heck i dont think you'r or anyone else is actually capable of doing such a thing, but face it.
It dosent seem like he's going to change for the better while living at home, slacking off.

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lurkette

Such a hard question. I can't answer without thinking of my brother, who had a similar history...hard to answer without all of the "wish I had done this instead" thoughts clouding the issue. He eventually straightened out and found his way, but not till he'd been homeless, in jail, and then lived with my mom till he was 24.

That said, your son is not my brother. So, when I'm thinking logically here is what I'd say:

- He's been warned already, told what the house rules are, and what the consequences are for breaking them

- If he goes out on his own, he may either straighten up in the real world, or he won't. If he doesn't, are you strong enough to let him fail and take the consequences on himself? I know from watching my mom how hard it is to watch your kids struggle and let them take their own knocks and learn their own lessons.

- The other question is whether you can live with his actions if he stays and doesn't change?

Since you asked outright, I do think that kicking him out is the right thing to do. He's never going to lose the sense of entitlement, or grow a conscience, if he doesn't experience some pretty harsh consequences of his actions, first hand. Having a roof over his head, a car, food, etc., is shielding him from any consequences. He knows you love him, and he knows you're ambivalent about letting him stay vs. pushing him out on his own, and my guess is that he uses your own love and ambivalence to manipulate you a bit. He knows your buttons and how to push them to get what he wants.

I'm so sorry. Like I said, I watched my mom struggle with this for years, and I really feel for you. But I do think a "tough love" stance is probably best for both of you. He may not change, but at least if he's not living with you you're not a victim of his actions. Unless you're willing to live with whatever he throws at you, unconditionally, I'd say it's time for him to find his own place.

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Leviathan[NCV]

After reading this, I have to say the best thing you can do, not only for you, but also for him is *just* to kick him out.

He doesn't quite seem to understand what having your own life entails, nor the apreciation of his current situation. If he won't learn from you, let the cruel world do it's job.

LewisCouch

Your son's behaviour is quite similar to a young man, who I attempted to help. He too was declared a deliquent and his parents kicked him out of their home. He literally left with only the clothes on his back. Of course he blamed everyone but himself for this, however, he did decide to get a job and support himself. To help him in his endeavor I arranged transportation to and from his job and also subsidized some of his living expenses. The sad thing is that he really didn't want to work or to help himself and he lost a pretty good job. His behaviour has continued to denegrate ever since.

His real personality has manifested itself over the last two years, and he subsequently has been convicted of theft, assault, menacing and fraud. He also stole items from my home and absconded with a gas card which was abused considerably.

I'm detailing this for you because some people, no matter how hard you try to help them, refuse to help themselves.

Try to get him into therapy and if he doesn't improve within an appropriate time frame, as painful as it will be, show him the door.

Good luck.

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Cynthetiq

I'm sorry that you had to drive all that way and have to deal with this immediately.

Stop enabling him to abuse you and your personal property.
He's over age of legal consent, you have no legal obligations to him any longer. I'm not a mother nor father, but I have no regard for anyone who doesn't at least have enough respect for themselves to deal with the mundane things of life like keeping a roof over your head.

Size 8 boot to the ass...curbside.

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Cynthetiq

and BTW....you should have made it a poll that way you'll just see raw numbers instead of discourse that could disuade or persuade you otherwise from doing the difficult task.

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rooster

i would call the police and have them remove him from the house . sounds to me like he needs to be out of your home and he will either make it are be put in a place where they keep close watch on him meaning jail. you do not owe him a thing,and there is no way in hell i would put up with him tearing up thinks you have worked for. i have raied 6 kids and all are different .i concider myself lucky in that only 1 has caused me trouble.right now he is sitting in county jail over traffic tickets.i have helped he 1 time and he got into trouble again by not paying his fines.i will not pay them for him so he will sit until he is released .he has 2 brothers that are police officers and they have taken him to jail theirselves.give yourself some peace and kick his ass out.it will either help him that is his choice.

Double D

Hey guys... I'm typing this through tears so please bear with me.

First, thank you from the heart for taking the time to offer support and advice. It helps a lot.

Just a couple small things:

He's been in therapy- individual, family, group -- a number of times. He's been on anti-depressants--several different kinds. He refused to go along with any of it back when we started, and we tried again & again. He still refuses.

I have realized that it is not ironic at all that a therapist (me) would have a child like this. I'm just like anyone else and I have to keep reminding myself that I should be taking the advice that I would give a client, to give him some opportunities to shape up--he's had more than I can count---or tell him to leave--that's the only option here.

This is not going to be easy--beyond the emotionality of it is the fact that we co-signed on his car and we know that he won't make payments--he's always behind even now--so it's inevitable that this is going to cost us, but it can't be a reason to let him stay.

After getting some groceries, my husband is going down to the police station to file a report. I just hope they don't cop out with the * he's a family member, so the car can't be stolen,* response. Regardless, for insurance reasons, we'll have our bases covered.

I'll stay home in case he shows up--meanwhile I can do one of the things that helps me when I'm stressed--put some upbeat music on and clean house .

Thank you again for for taking the time to express your thoughts on this.

Cyn, your idea for a poll is excellent. I tried to edit the post to add a poll, but it seems it's not an option now that I've posted.

badflsh

Any chance of getting him into the military? I have had a couple friends that sounded just like your son who joined the military. They both came out changed people. Actually, one decided to stay because he liked how structured everything is. I hope everything works out for you.

ratbastid

I don't have much to offer advice-wise, Dub-D. The thing I want you to know is that I can HEAR your love and concern for him and his future behind every word you've written here.

That's the thing about being tough with a loved one. Sometimes we forget that we're doing that because we love them. It looks like we HAVE to be tough or we say it's because we're sick of being taken advantage of or something--one way or another we turn it into SOMETHING that disempowers us.

I say that to say this: I'm clear you're an amazing mother who loves her son to the ends of the earth, and who (quite understandably, as you said) is at a loss how best to express that love, given the situation.

ARTelevision

just for the record, my son exhibited the same behavior and worse and, yes, to be brief and use your term, I kicked him out of the house.
'nuff said.

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rival

That sounds about right. It sounds like he's had a number of chances to get his act together while living with you. Maybe it's time he was given the option to sink or swim on his own.

denim

He's 20. He's no longer a child. Change the locks now.

Rodney

You may be asking yourself what went wrong, if you could have done anything differently, if it'd been better if you'd gotten tough sooner and been consistently tough. I have no idea.

But I do know that continuing as things are now is not an option. It's wrecking you, and it's not doing anything but enabling and enforcing his behavior. You've got really overwhelming evidence that it's not going to improve. Time to protect yourself and kick him out. Maybe he'll learn out there in the world, maybe he won't; there's a chance. But he's not going to learn anything staying with you. Time to set him entirely loose on his own and let him experience harsh reality.

The_Dude

agree. he's a fully grown man and should not be living with his mom in the first place, let alone do all these things.

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BoCo

Kick him out, let him get in trouble, and the state can take care of him from now on.

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WhoaitsZ

i've know a few mom's deal with similiar scenarios. not to sound like an asshole or pessimis, but they never change. well, almost never.

kick him out, dd. you have other kid(s?) there. they don't need to be around that kind of people. i cannot come close to imagining how much it would hurt to suggest, or better tell him right out, that he must leave. now; or when he gets back.....

there is a time for everything. that is beyond anything short of jail. bad thing is, in jail he'd probably be safer.

the thing that has me worried is. . . . are you safe?

peace be unto you...

cronopio

I would say that you've done all that you can. There isn't anything more you can do if he is not willing to be responsible for his actions.

I think you should kick him out. Explain to him that you love him, but that enough is enough.

Good luck.

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MacGnG

he's old enuf to handle him self. he doesnt goto college and isnt trying to get a job so it doesnt look like he is gonna get better. maybe kicking him out is what he needs to straighten out. either way better for you and better for him.

bullgoose

Gonna tell you straight; KICK HIM OUT!! My son is a true alcoholic; a real hard-nosed boozer; he damned near burned our house down at least five times; one night, he held a gun on me, until I took it away- the list goes on and on; I fially took him to a shelter and signed him in; he put himself through hell for four years, culminating in the whole family standing around a hospital bed, waiting for him to die from exposure, pneumonia, and a couple other things. He didn't die; he's sober now and, at 34, starting a "normal" life. Sounds bad, doesn't it? The truth is, IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY, NO MATTER WHAT I DID!! I also have three daughters; they are just fine, but they wouldn't have been if my son had stayed with us; he had to learn the hard way. Sometimes you just have to let go, no matter how hard it is; in my sons case, it turned out well- that isn't always true.

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G_Whiz

Double D,

I am going to echo some of the advice that you have already seen here. But I want to make a second part to the suggestion that will be hard to reconcile with the first. However, I think it is critical.

First, get him out as soon as possible. Do it as unemotionally as you can. The rules were laid out, the consequences were laid out, he didn't follow the rules, the consequences MUST follow.

Second, don't close the door on maintaining contact with him. DO NOT let him expect to move back in, but DO let him know that he can visit you. And, that you would like to visit him. The need for him to move out has nothing to do with your love for him or the need for you to maintain contact.

At this point, he is legally an adult. It is time for him to take responsibility for his actions as an adult.

I suspect that you knew all of this before you posted this thread.

I understand the pain that this is causing you. I am more the willing to listen and help if I can.

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Slims

Give him one week to find a new place and get out.
If he doesn't move, put all his stuff out in the driveway (call the police if you have to).

He will probably have a hard time moving out, and he will bitch and moan a lot, but that sort of thing fixes itself. At least, it will if he wants to eat.

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Halx

OK *I'm* 20 years old. I still live with my parents. Granted, I am held to standards and I adhere to them. Any chores I fail to do, I pay through the wallet. I pay for my food, my car, my insurance, my school, my entertainment, and everything else. The only thing I rely on my parents for is this roof over my head. The moment I sense I am putting any more strain on my parents than that, I rush to make things right again. I am an independant person as should any healthy 20 year old be. Parents should have an obligation to hold a roof over their children's heads at that age, but very little else. If your son is not holding his end of the bargain up, you have every justification to drop yours.

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zfleebin

Double D: In a situation like this I would usually keep my mouth closed but I have to give you my support in what it sounds like you are planning on doing. I think filing a police report is not only appropriate but completely justified. In highschool I was the biggest strain on my moms life and now at 21 I wish she had kicked me out for some of the shit I did because maybe then I would have listened to her. I knew it was hard for my mom to be hard on me since I was her kid but its better to learn from your parents than it is to learn from the legal system. If he doesnt want to listen to you let him listen to the police. If that doesnt wake him up the responsibility of working for his daily pleasure will. Good luck

JadziaDax

DD: I feel for you very deeply. Now, imagine a classroom filled with children just like your son. That's the children I teach. The unteachable. Most everyone seems in agreement with the "kick him out" resolve... however, I know that it's really tough for you to kick him out. You love him regardless of how shitty he can be. But this is where the tough love has to come in. Change the locks on the doors (incase he's made copies of the keys). Be prepared for the worst...

My father's girlfriend kicked her son out when he was about the same age as your son. He staged a break-in and robbery. Since he knew where his mother kept all the good jewelry and other stuff, that's all that was stolen. She knew it was him. All I'm saying is "be prepared for the worst".

Sometimes these things have to be done. If there is ever a time you want to discuss other options, PM me and we can brainstorm something... It's part of my job.

I wish you all the best in this and every dealing with him.

foofighter

Only one way he'll learn, is having only his own property to trash. I'd kick him out.

cheerios

I'm not sure if it can be done, but... can you repossess the car if he defualts on paymetn, instead of him? i mean, if you end up paying for it anyway, do you have any legal recource to "take it back" as it were?

good luck, and warm feelings.

mirage

i would say at 20 if you havnt learned how to respect your parents its time for them to be leaving

almostaugust

Yeah, i think kicking him out is for the best. It might turn out to be the making of him. At the moment he just acting like a little kid. It sounds tough.

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Double D

It's been a day of waiting to see if my son would return with the car. He hasn't as of yet (1:30 a.m. Central time).

My spouse filed a police report and was asked if my son is found driving it, if we wanted him charged with grand theft auto.
My spouse told the police yes, to arrest him.
So... it's pretty rough right now.

Just to answer a few of your queries:
The military does not want a person without a high school diploma. I believe the US Army could take him, if he tested well for them, but he refuses to consider it.

We have given him lots of last warnings and time limits to get his act together--too many actually, and I know he's banking on this now to happen. It won't.

Everyone that has posted on this today has my deep gratitude. I constantly second-guess myself with this situation and your support has helped me tremendously in taking a stand and sticking with it.

I do love my son--deeply. I was rather young when I had him-- he's my first born, and we went through some tough times together when he was young. He was an amazing little boy-- good student, athlete, well-liked by friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches. But he took a major wrong turn in grade 8, and has been on a downhill slide ever since.
My heart aches for him--all the potential that has gone unused, but it aches as well for his 10 y.o. (half) brother who has sadly, been witness to things a young child shouldn't have to see.

My 20 y.o. son is a man, even if he doesn't behave as one, and it's way past time for him to grow up and to stop using & abusing our patience & love.

Thanks to all of you. You are what makes TFP such an amazing,
real community.

Konichiwaneko

Karma was invented for people like you. Soon we will hear how everything has worked out for the better for you.

I don't have to tell you to be strong, cause you damn well sound like you are.

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mortius

Kick him out. Some times that's the only way some people will learn.

I had real issues with growing up until I left home and found out how hard it is to live without money. Yeah I got in trouble with the police but I learned from it.

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rodgerd

If you've laid down an ultimatum and don't follow through, you're just teaching him that he can continue down the path he's on, and keep putting yourself (and presumably your husband) at risk.

He's 20. He's an adult. If you were asking about a 16 year old I'd say, no, you've got a responsibility to your child to try and straighten them up. At 20, as an adult, you're entitled to say you've done your best, you love him, you'll be there if he wants help to change, but you don't need to put up with his shit any more.

[Edit - alter thinko]

rodgerd

Don't waste time second guessing or think "what if", and don't let anyone else do that to you. You sound like a loving parent who's done her best and tried her hardest, and that's the definition of a good parent.

Sometimes kids (of any age) make bad decisions - whole runs of 'em - no matter what their parents do to try and help them.

rockogre

Save yourself.

If you don't show him the door in no uncertain terms the heartache will continue. He's old enough to know better so he is making a concience choice to take advantage of you. It's a rough world out there but he made the choice so let him experience the world without your support. There is a slim chance that he will grow up.

Don't let your good heart overrule your brain. We're all behind you!

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Bill O'Rights

I see so many posts for "Kick Him Out". That would be my inclination as well, because it's easy for me to say...he's not my son. If it were my son, I have no doubts that I would have many trepedations over giving him the boot. It's not as easy as all that. Tough Love...who's it tougher for the child...or the parent. This is flesh and blood we're talking about...not the rotten neighbor's kid, down the street.

I guess in short...I have no answer. Just know that, for what it's worth, you have my sympathies, and I'll be thinking about you. I hope everything works out to a satisfactory conclusion...it's too late to be "O.K."

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