Willravel

As someone who does understand child psychology, and has the diploma to prove it, I agree with shakran. The actions of these children, though symptomatic of larger problems, represent the roots of apathy in the childrens development. Animal abuse is linked to conduct disorder (a repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated). Among the symoptoms listed in the DSM IV for CD are "aggression to people and animals" (which includes cruelty to people or to animals).

Knee jerk replies suggesting severe physical punishment from the parents and others ironically would make the problem worse. I remain convinced that the best course of action for these kids would be to talk to a professional about what they did, without the parents in the room.

diddagirl

I am a cat lover, and a children lover. I did not mean I have ever ,or would ever "throw a child" against a wall. I was mearly expressing my utter disgust for these childrens actions - something very cruel. Thats why it said "I crave to"...and not I am about to go throw children against a wall. Shakran seemed to explain where I was coming from pretty well....as he obviously gets it. I am a really cool, normal human being and will someday be a great mom...so your little parenting sentiment can kiss my ass.

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frogza

Being angry and wanting to return tit for tat is normal. Fantasizing about it or acting on it is not. At no point in my life have I ever hit a person younger than myself (well except maybe my brother who is two years younger ) The anger is past and now I want to try and teach these kids that what they were doing is wrong.

I think your argument regarding pain in animals is missing the point. Deriving pleasure from intentionally damaging or killing a living thing is sadistic. Building a game around killing a person or an animal fits the definition.

It's interesting to me that someone who is so willing to demonize people (like those posting here) can find these children faultless. What is your criteria for "bad" behavior.

rlynnm

There is no notion made that animals are saints. If we allow kids to do as they please, without having any regard for who/what they hurt, who's to say they won't take it further later in life? Today's it's a cat, tomorrow, it's the homeless guy standing at the street corner -- after all they are both, well...stray, arent they?

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BigBen

I am of the school of thought that what one sows, one reaps.

Torturing animals is one of the worst crimes I can think of, and the punishment goes far beyond sitting the children down and talking to them.

Traditionally, there would be a world-class beating given to the child perpetrator. We as a society (not necessarily personally) do not condone that punishment anymore. I have been on the recieving end of a few of those, and understand the point of NOT hitting children.

How can we express our collective outrage at this event? I am at a complete loss to express my sorrow, my anger, my frustration, and my fear. I am afraid that if this situation is not dealt with properly, these kids will be fucked up for the rest of their lives, and they will turn to worse crimes, involving humans...

If this were my child, I would break down. I would realize that I have failed as a parent, as a proper member of society. I would agonize about what to do.

It sure would be more than sitting little Billy down and asking him how he is feeling. I would demand restitution.

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rlynnm

If my kid, and yes I am a parent were involved in the above cat-torture, hell I'd take your suggestions, all of them.

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Hanxter

okay kiddies... let's be civil or it's off to your rooms with no supper

xepherys

Ah, I so disagree... I think the recent (two decades or so) of child violence has increased BECUASE parents can't beat their kids anymore and school don't implement corporal punishment. Shit like this happened WAY less in the 50's and WAY less still in the 30s. Back then, if you caught your son kicking the family dairy cow, that kid was gonna get lashed until he had welts. Chances are, he's NEVER do it again. Fuck therapy. Fuck blaming parents. Fuck assuming everything is a result of the environment.

*sigh*

Sorry, this kind of thing pisses me off as much, or maybe even MORE than the OPs topic. Children need to learn right from wrong. Yes, most of the time explaining things and trying to be "mature" about it is the best approach. Sometimes a good ass kicking is what it takes. Sure, there's always been violence... but there's more of it in kids when parents can't use the time honored, thousands-year old tradition of the switch. Ever hear "Spare the rod, spoil the child?" Well, there are a lot of spoiled asshole kids out there that never learn right from wrong. Why do so many people fail to see this today?

Willravel

I couldn't disagree more, espically coming from a family of therepists. Everyu day my mother (Dr. in psychology) has to deal with child abuse and the effects of child abuse on the children. There are no positives to beating a child, and there are a plethera of negatives. Let me give you an example: My grandfather beat my uncle on a regular basis both because he was beaten as a child and becuase of alcoholism. My uncle was not deterred by the violence, as it went on from the age of 5 until he left the house at 18. If your theory was correct, he would have stopped dioing whatever my grandfather thought he was doing wrong and the beatings would have stopped. My uncle is now in therepy because he has beaten his kids, my cousins. He stopped, thankfully, but it still happened. Chances are, you either don't have kids (no experience), or you're an abusive parent (you are inside of the problem and therefore do not have the perspective to see it rationally).
I can understnad that someone who advocates beating children can be made mad very easily and can become enraged at the drop of a hat. Spoiled kids are so spoiled not because they are not beaten, but because they are either punished inconsistantly, or not at all. There are many approriate punishments for kids that do not involve your fists. I hope you know that.

JustJess

I don't advocate child abuse either. And your family's situations are very different than taking kids, when nothing else has worked, and say 'okay, that's it. you're getting a spanking.' No anger shown, no wild emotions, just a matter-of-fact swatting of the tush, and on with the day.

I do believe that this would help with the "spoiled rotten" kids, and the kids in this situation that were just following the leader. NOTE: I am NOT advocating hitting a child in an angry or retaliatory way. So please refrain from those responses, they're not appropriate in this case.

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xepherys

Haha, I'm not saying you should smack them around or beat them to a pulp... but I got spanked as a child. And I can recall specifically learning those lessons very well. My ten year old son... I've had to spank him ONCE ever in his life. He's VERY well behaved. That single time was the last time he ever "begged" me for things, and also the last time he talked back. He's not afraid of me. I didn't have to leave bruises or beat him half to death. Two good swats on the ass, in the middle of a store did him a world of good. Also, I'm amused by your background with therapists. I have a couple in my family that I find to be useless as hell. I don't have a bad temper at all. Your comment "and can become enraged at the drop of a hat"... how has it any bearing? Do I have a short temper, or does the OP, because it was enraging that kids were throwing a living animal against a wall? Oh, only because I disagree with your viewpoint is in a temperment issue. Hmmm, interesting. I wonder what your therapist parents would have to say to that.

Psychology and therapy is not really a science as much as an interpretive artistic practice. Over the course of any decade, a lot comes and goes. Sure, this is true with any science, but psychology can actually scar people. If they decide that the half life of plutonium was previously incorrect, this does not lead to problems with someone's psyche. If they determine that hey, maybe the Ferber method is bad... well, let's hope those kids aren't too screwed up. Frankly, I find psychology to be nothing more than a slightly better accepted phrenology. So using the fact that you have therapists as parents does little or nothing in my eyes to better your PoV.

Hmm, let me take some of MY examples:

* I was spanked as a child, and I'm not violent. I've been in one fight in my life, it was in high school, and I was defending myself. I must be a real bastard because my parents "hit" me. Oddly enough, from an environmental factor, both of my paretns smoked and my dad (and many on his side) were raging alcholics. I'm neither. Wow, it's CRAZY how that childhood environment so shapes our lives. It's called having a choice of how we turn out.

* I have a cousin whose mother tried discipling him repsectfully. She explained things, she was consistant, and even got him evalutaed and eventually medicated. He was STILL a total asshole for the first 20 years of his life, torturing animals of all sorts and being rather psychotic. Must've been that healthy hands-off approach.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that neither nessecarily work for EVERY kid. But a kid like that... what do you think therapy will do for him? Therapy helps less kids than one might think. However, unlike adults, kids (even disturbed ones) tend to seek approval from adults. This would include saying things that shrinks want to hear, and making it seem like progress was being made. In fact, that's exactly how I treated my psychologist that I saw after my dad died. I was pushed into it by family (I didn't WANT therapy) and so I made the best of it by "going along with the program". It's fairly typical behavior from children, as I'm sure many child development folk might concur with. It's crazy how rock solid that psychology stuff is, huh?

As a side note, I'm sorry if you got "a good ass kicking" confused with actaully bludgeoning a kid. When I hear someone say "a whalloping" "ass kicking" or other term, I tend to take it half heartedly. I doubt most people who actually beat the hell out of their kids with fists and feet would advertise as such. Maybe it's just my military background speaking. A drill sergeant might "kick our ass"... it didn't mean we bled out by the end of the day. I would NEVER hit my child with the intent to injure him. EVER! Sorry if that got misconstrued. However, I stand by my (now reworded) argument. There are also situations where the only truly appropriate punishment is a spanking.

Oh, just read the bottom of your first paragraph. I have a 10-year old son and a newborn baby son. Neither of them will EVER get actually beaten in a violent fashion. Both are apt (well, not the baby... obviously) to get a spanking if they so deserve... even my 10 year old... I'm not an abusinve parent, and I have plenty of experience thank you.

Willravel

Before I start responding to yuor post, let me make clear that I was responding based on what I thought you were saying,, highlighted by this quote:
This leads me to believe that beating (being excessively violent) to kids is your answer. The word 'beating', to me, is the extreme of physical punishment. I just want to make that clear.
I believe that there is a clear difference between a controled spanking given consistantly out of love and for the childs good versus beating a child. If you did not leave bruises and it was clear to your son that you were doing it for his own good, then I simply see that as you doing what is necessary as a parent to instill good values in your son. My argument was based on my understanding that you support the beating of children and you thinking therepy is useless.

The reason that my tone and position on you specifically have changed is beacuse your position has seemingly changed. Where as in your above post you supported beating kids, you now do not support beating kids, and have cited that in your history you have only spanked your child once seemingly for good reason. I believe this repesents a falacy in your response. You made argument A. I responded to argument A. You changed your argument to argument B, and are insisting that my argument against your argument A is incorrect, trying to compare it to argument B.

I see this as an angry outburst :
After making this statement, you wrote out that you let out a sigh, as if pulling back from your aggressive statements. This was clearly an outburst founded in anger. Does it have bearing? Absolutely. The fact that you defended beating children, the attacked psychology, blaming parents, and blaming environment, and then had an outburst is quite telling.

The OP was there, in real life. He was able to take positive action. Yes, he was angry, but instead of channeling his anger into a blind attack, he used it constructively in order to attempt to make a positive change.

Incorrect. Psychology is, in fact, a science. Also, artistic practices, take musical composition for example, take advantage of theory as a guideline. Science and artistic practice are not mutually exclusive. Anything can scar someone. Biology can be used to cure or to kill, does that make it any less of a science? In fact, main stream psychology has remained more than constand for the last 20 + years.

Frankly, I help people, and my mother helps people. I am not looking for your approval.

Environmental situations, such as being abused as a child, do not always result in cd or antisocial behavior, but they CAN. There was a possibiliy that you could have grown up with cd because of your parents actions, and there was a possibility that you wouldn't. You can find similar situations in physics (another science).
Like I said above, we are dealing in possibilities. There is a possibility that some kids will develop cd for reasons outside of their parents actions, though it is much more rare. In biology, recessive genes come up, despite being more rare.
I almost certianbally have more experience with being in and learning about therepy than you, so when you make statements like "Therapy helps less kids than one might think.", what I think is this guy doesn't understand psychology or therepy at all, and is now bad mouthing something he doesn't understand. You remind me of Tom Cruise on the Today show bad mouthing psychology, saying things like "I've done the research, Matt." The reason that child psychology is more effective than you claim is because psychologiest recognise behavioral patterns, such as wanting to please adults, when treating a child patient. Believe it or not, hundreds of years of scientific development in psychology has mastered what you have figured out.
I was not given a context in which to percieve what you were saying as an exaggeration, so I took it at face value.
Again, I was basing my argument on your first post, in which you make it clear that beating kids is not only okay, but has positive results. You have represented yourself and your standpoint in two very different ways. I will choose to assume that the second post, including clairifications, is your true standpoint and an accurate representation of yourself.

xepherys

Well, I appreciate your ability to overlook the exaggeration of my first post. I also never assumed you were seeking my approval, as you were quick to point out. I have several retorts to your arguments regarding psychology, but those are for another thread, another day. I think I've highjacked the OPs thread more than enough.

Willravel

Agreed. Thanks for the discussion, though.

shakran

First off, thanks Willravel for backing me up. I knew I hadn't forgotten THAT much from my psych minor


No one is disagreeing that spanking a child CAN achieve behavior modification. However, what you are failing to consider is that there could be OTHER ways that could acheive the same modification with fewer unfortunate lessons - i.e. "if someone pisses you off enough, hit them and they'll stop."

That's ridiculous. I have an engineer in my family that's an idiot too. That doesn't mean ALL engineers are useless. Let's think a little more before we denigrate an entire profession based on our relatives shall we?


Well let's see. I suppose that if we subscribe to your logic then medicine is also not a science. After all it used to be that doctors told us drinking alcohol was not good for you. Now red wine is good for your heart. I wonder how many people ended up with hearts that werent' as strong as they could have been because they avoided wine. I'm glad you mentioned plutonium. Back in the early days of nuclear research they didn't realize it was bad for you. Dick Feynman had a lump of ultra radioactive plutonium encased in gold. He used it as a doorstop. Marie Curie died from radiation poisoning from her work with radioactive materials. I suppose according to your logic that physics and geology aren't sciences either, since they once got radioactivity wrong resulting in people actually dying.



Hey wow I'm really impressed! Over 260 million people in the United States alone and you manage to produce two whole people to back up your point!

Point being, you need actual statistics, not just a couple of personal examples if you want to make this point.


I would love to see your source for that. Hint: It will be difficult to back this statement up since "less than one might think" is not a quantifiable statement.

How big of a moron do you think Willravel and other psychologists are? Do you not realize that they KNOW kids will do that, and can see through that?



I'm sorry that your utter lack of precision in your writing caused misinterpretations. But a spanking is pretty different from a "good ass kicking."

xepherys

Spanking my son one time in his entire life... I guess if that was somehow an unfortunate lesson, than yes, zero would be less than one. I think you're a bit overzealous on the argument.


I'm not saying they're idiots, per se. It also was not based entirely on relatives, but also acquainances, professors and my own personal experience with psychologists and psychiatrists as well as the personal experiences of friends and family with non-familial psych-type folk.


I won't continue my argument on this point as I clearly did not put it the way I intended. I understand that no science is perfect. However, my experience with people in that profession is that there is an assumption that they are always right, and that their line of though is the best. Even within multiple "schools" of psychiatry. There are, that I'm aware of, no medical schools of thought that believe surgery is never an option, or that people with heart problems should just "bear the pain". Psychology still has a LONG way to grow before it is in the same league as other sciences. Sorry, that's an opinion, in case that wasn't clear.


I'm sorry, should I produce a small paper on this topic? I'm sure you would retort with an equal or greater number of examples which go the other way. I guess the reason for such debates is to illuminate different ideas. Something of this nature cannot realistically be proven one way or the other.



Again, I wasn't aware that one needed a source to make an argument. This isn't a statistics class. Oh, and regarding statistics, they can be made to say anything. Without a deep background understanding of the supporting data, statistics are worthless. Quantification isn't everything... An example of this is:





Again, I am not qualified to discuss the intelligence of Willravel. He seems to be a well adjusted individual that is able to have a good debate, so far as my experience in this thread is concerned. I do, however, think that many are not able to see through such a ruse. I pulled the wool over the eyes of more than one psychologist as a child. When my paretns divorced, after my dad died, during a period of depression. Realistically, psychology to some degree becomes a battle of smarts. Yes, they have training... but that training is only as good as how well they can use it.




Well, your interpretation is different than mine. If I had said blue and meant midnight blue, but you assumed baby blue... that was your interpretation... and neither of us are at any greater fault. Hence I clarified my statements. Don't be sorry... I'm not. *shrug*

BTW, does anyone here watch TV? Ever see "That 70's Show"? Red talks about putting his boot up eric's ass all the time, and I've yet to hear even the MOST left wing PC advocate say that the show advocated child abuse. I think the wording is fairly common practice.




edit for clarity?

Willravel

Hahahaha!!! Awesome graph. It does tell us that there were 17 pirates as of 2000. I wonder who they were.
Well thank you. I
Well, your interpretation is different than mine. If I had said blue and meant midnight blue, but you assumed baby blue... that was your interpretation... and neither of us are at any greater fault. Hence I clarified my statements. Don't be sorry... I'm not. *shrug*

BTW, does anyone here watch TV? Ever see "That 70's Show"? Red talks about putting his boot up eric's ass all the time, and I've yet to hear even the MOST left wing PC advocate say that the show advocated child abuse. I think the wording is fairly common practice.




edit for clarity?[/QUOTE]

shakran

Sorry, but if you're gonna spout claims, you need to be prepared to back them up. I can make stuff up too, but that won't help me win a debate.






Ass kicking is to spanking as a cold is to flu. They're both related, but one's a helluva lot worse than the other.


And Red is portrayed as a genuine grade-A asshole. What's your point?

Willravel

Hahahaha!!! Awesome graph. It does tell us that there were 17 pirates as of 2000. I wonder who they were.
Well thank you for the compliment. I agree that you seriously underestimate therepists. It is necessary for all people recieving their ba in psychology to take child psychology, and having taken that class, as well as several other child psychology classes, I can tell you that those in the class that didn't get it would never pass the board tests. In other words, those who are trying to become therepists that have not learned something as simple as children wanting approval froma adults would almost certianally not be able to practice psychology to the public. Some of the smartest people I know had to take the certification test several times. One thing you do have to remember: a psychologist is more likely to be able to help you if you are willing to be open. As you seemingly pulled the wool over your therepists eyes (on purpous?), it made the job of the therepist all the more difficult. I know that when the person in therepy is actively working against the therepist, it at the very least pospones any kind of help that you could get. It's possible that you needed to have therepy longer, or it's possible that you have the rare gulible therepist. In all likelyness, they got tired of you bsing them (therepists are people too).
I have to say that most advocates have bigger fish to fry then Red on That 70s Show, but even if they had the time, it's nto as big of a deal because he never has actuially hit Eric (as, far as I know, I don't really watch that show). Usually his comments are less out of anger, and more with annyoance, in other words it's not a threat.

xepherys

I think Red is portrayed as a fairly typical American guy. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but that is on purpose. I guess we just grew up very differently, shakran.

As for the pirates, I'd imagine that they reside somewhere in the cetral americas and/or southeast asia. In fact, wasn't there news of pirates boarding a cruise ship (seriously) not too long ago? Or trying to board. Something to that effect.

alansmithee

I agree, but as you said, it shows apathy as opposed to an intentional attempt to inflict suffering. And I also know that cruelty to animals is one of the hallmarks of many forms of conduct disorder, including anti-social disorder. But from what I have understood, this is more because a person has difficutly in sympathizing with others (in essence, they don't register suffering of others). But someone intentionally trying to inflict cruelty would need to register the suffering to get their enjoyment. Now, a more sadistic purpose could develop, I won't dispute that. But it's a jump at the current time, IMO.

And here I couldn't agree more. And this was largely my point: people who want to condemn children for cruelty immediately want to use cruelty themselves on those very children. And they seem to see nothing wrong with that.

feelgood

Ok, I'm really baffled by the shear stupidity of the kid. Child abuse or not, the kid's fucked up in his head.

If you guys recalled, I posted something similar, except my stepbrother who's 13, was about to throw a brick onto the top of my cat. Granted, he didn't do it but I could easily tell that he stopped himself short of it and I can goddam well tell you this: I will not. fucking. hesitate. to do the same to him. Regardless of the fact that he's human and the cat is cat.

frogza, props to you for controlling your rage, if I had been in the same situation, I probably would not be able to contain my outrage to what had just happened.

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Willravel

The opposite of sympathy and empathy is selfishness. If one derives pleasure from hurting others (people, animals), isn't that one of the most pure forms of selfishness?
I enjoy agreeing with someone I often don't agree with.
If you saw a 13 year old boy hit a cat with a brick, you'd hit the boy with the brick in turn? I really hope that you're exaggerating. Hitting any living thing with as brick, whether for punishment or to derive pleasure, is absolutely 100% wrong, not to mention illegal. If the boy would have hit the cat, that would have been animal abuse, and if the police were involved somehow they'd just drop off the kids at his parents house and tell the parents to talk to the kid. If you were to hit a 13 year old boy with a brick, that's aggravated assault - assault that involved a dangerous weapon with intent to do bodily harm (i.e., not merely to frighten), and you'd be facing possible jail time. (http://www.ussc.gov/2005guid/2a2_2.htm)

Sweetpea

i won't get into what people do to animals, both kids and adults... it is disgusting how some people treat them, like they don't have feelings or feel pain. I think it comes from an inherent lack of compassion, lack of making the emotional connection with another creature.... sometimes it can be overcome for some kids, sometimes it cannot and they require allot of therapy.

I am TRULY glad that you were there to give this little cat some kindness and love and give it some dignity in the last hours of it's life.... i hold you in high esteem for doing that, your actions speak loudly for what a kind person you are... it warms me to know that for every cruel person, there is a person like you who knows how to show compassion and acts in kindess...

Sweetpea

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vanblah

It's true that animal abuse can indicate emotional problems in humans (both children and adults) but we can't jump to any conclusions about these kids. Is this the only time that these kids have done something like this? If it is, then we probably don't have anything to worry about. Especially since at least one of the children has shown remorse.

Is the bahaviour reprehensible? Yes. Does it make it any less reprehensible because it was a cat? No. The children were behaving like a lot of children do ... "let's see what happens if ..."

They made a very poor choice and a living creature suffered for it. Are they "little monsters?" Probably not ... although not knowing their background we can't say for certain.

Is the behaviour "normal?" Again, if it's an isolated incident then I'm content to say yes. Kids ARE mean ... I have a four year old daughter. She's the sweetest girl you'll ever meet. However, I've seen her pinch our dogs ears until the dog starts to whine. I tell her that it, "hurts [the dogs] feelings and to stop." My daughter apologized to the dog and has never done it again. I've swatted her butt a couple of times ... nothing major. Just a reaction on my part to the increasing battle of the wills. She responds better to, "You've hurt my feelings."

Why did she do it? She's a kid. Is it reprehensible? Yes. Not as bad as torturing a cat to death ... but the indications are the same. She just wanted to see what would happen.

Teaching empathy is much more effective then physical punishment. You know, "how would you feel if ..."

Compassion and empathy are both learned traits. A 7 year old boy is probably a little young to expect much in the way of real compassion or empathy. Girls probably start a little earlier. You can see it in toddlers but it's sort of play-acting for them. Parents do have a responsibility to foster compassion and empathy in their kids ... hell, I'd go so far as saying all adults have this responsibility -- but I know that's not very realistic.

Physical punishment does not have to be brutal ... nor does it have to be degrading (although no matter how tempered a smack in the butt, it's always a little degrading).

<b>Frogza:</b> What can you tell us about the kids now that it's been a couple of days?