frogza

On Friday last week I was out for a walk, trying to make the most of the few snowless days left for the year. As I got closer to my house I saw some kids(ages 7-8) playing. It looked like they were throwing a stuffed animal against a wall as high as they could to see who could throw the highest. Once I got closer the "stuffed animal" meowed, they had been throwing a live cat against the wall!

I ran over and picked the cat up and started yelling at the little miscreants. I must admit I got a lot of satisfaction when a couple of them started crying. I took the cat home to see what I could do for it. It has obviously been homeless for a while, it was skin and bones. It didn't have the strength to walk and from what I could tell it was blind. I called the town vet but he was gone for the weekend. It died in my lap about two hours after I got it home.

I went to the house the kids were playing near and was able find and tell one of the kids dads about what had happened, he flipped out! He said he would track down who else was involved and tell their parents.

I'm still furious about it all, and its been three days, I have such a strong desire to find these kids and throw them against a wall.

maleficent

I'm glad you made the kid cry... Monster child...

I hope that the parent doesn't beat the snot out of the kid and instead takes it for therapy instead. This is a seriously disturbed child. There was probably one ring leader and the rest of 'em just followed along.

and a blessing on your head for giving that poor cat some compassion in it's last hours of life...

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kutulu

That's some fucked up shit right there. How can people do those sort of things to animals?

JustJess

Oh my god.
I wish I knew where kids get the idea that animals don't have feelings or are not living creatures like us... how horrible. I'm so glad you stepped in - at least the poor cat died in safe place - that's probably the happiest the poor thing had ever been.

Here's hoping the parents are all horrified and teach their kids better.

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Willravel

Violence in children against animals usually represents displaced hostility and aggression coming from neglect or abuse of the child. Animal cruelty committed by any member of the family, whether parent or child, often means child abuse occurs in that family (dad might beat the dog, so little sport throws the cat). I would be willing to bet all that will come of your intervention is a small beating, followed by continued neglect. CD (conduct disorder), the cause of the animal cruelty, can and will only be exasorbated by the father abusing his son.

I feel terrible about that poor cat. I wish parents would pay better attention to the way the act in front of their kids and the way they treat their kids.

And if Tom Cruise is reading this: How am I right about an abusive father if psychology is a pseudo science? That's what I thought.

Lasereth

What a bunch of little cold hearted shits. I'm glad you said something to them. I get enraged over animal abuse, moreso than the average person. It'd take some SERIOUSLY fucked up kids to throw a live animal against a wall. I've never even heard of such a thing. I hope whatever needs to be done to the kids is done and they learn respect for living, breathing creatures.

-Lasereth

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Ustwo

Well before I'd go condemning the parents (though it is always possible) kids at that age are not really good at empathy.

What you had was a pack basically and someone in that pack was 'showing off' how strong/mean they were. I can remember that age, and its amazing to me when I see how innocent these little kids seem to me as an adult how vicious we were at that age to each other.

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Sultana

Amen. Just reading about this makes me absolutely sick, but thank you for taking care of the situation, and for your kindness and compassion for the most helpless of creatures.
*heartfelt hugs*

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Apokx

Hopefully the little fuckers got their asses collectively beat.

There's no reason for kids to do stupid shit like that.Even children have some common sense.

Willravel

Like I said, if they were beaten, it actually reinforces their action. It will not deter them from animal cruelty since it is likely the cause.

Marvelous Marv

Serial killers in the making, IMO.

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flamingdog

An interesting, well thought-out response.

I'm more inclined to the opinion that people are sewage, and kids the worst of all. I wish I could say I was shocked to read that children could be capable of behaving in such a venomous, despicable fashion, but sadly nothing of this nature surprises me anymore.

I'd like to see them try it with a tiger cub, that's all I can say.

alansmithee

Here's one link:

Can animals feel pain?

It doesn't make the case for animals not being living creatures, but it does make the case for them not feeling pain. Honestly, I think people tend to overeact when animals are mentioned. We have children, which are supposedly the most important thing for humanity. But many people in this thread seemingly would like to see these children harmed (and we know they feel pain) just because of what they did to some stupid cat. Many people seem more than willing to attribute human feelings and emotions on animals when there's no logical reason to do so. Personally, I blame Disney. As the article states, it's mostly a matter of morals. And as we all should know by now, morals are nothing if not subjective.

Ustwo

Alan - While I would not equate anything resembling emotional pain to most animals, physical pain and suffering I do. Their nervous systems are developed well enough, and there reactions are little different from most humans.

I fish because I think the pain fish feel is reflexive and they do not react in a way that is consistent with pain in mammals. On the other hand I wouldn't toss a hook into a deer to catch it unless I was in danger of starving. It will feel pain.

Also I’m not sure if you read that article all the way...

Doesn’t really back up what you stated.

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rlynnm

I don't have any particular fondness for cats, but reading this made me cringe. While the kids deserve a good smack in the ass or two (or three or four...) I can't help but think the parents contribute a good deal to why their kids turn out a certain way. I've learned there here in the US, least with Western culture, not enough kids are disciplined hard enough.. The lack of action on the parent's behalf seems to perpetuate further wrongful acts.

I'm sure there are other factors to blame: media- and the glorification of violence, being around other kids with juvi-potential etc, but early in life, much of the above can still be somewhat controlled or should be monitored by parents.

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Marvelous Marv

Not to mention that any dog or cat owner can tel you how much most of them enjoy being scratched. Hard to believe that they'd so obviously experience pleasure if pain doesn't register.

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Elphaba

WTF? Marv, you have gone so over the top with that one. Care to back up that bullshit, or is this your personal pet experience?

alansmithee

I don't see where that would contradict what I was saying. It says that animal pain might be something different, and then ends with a question. If your answer is "yes, animal pain is something to be treated differently" or "no, animal pain should be treated the same as human pain" you are doing nothing but making a moral/ethics judgement (which is what I initially said). You yourself seem perfectly willing to put fish through a painful ordeal simply based on a peronal opinion that fish aren't feeling the same kind of pain. What's to stop someone from inflicting the same pain on a dog or cat because they don't think those animals feel the same kind of pain as humans? It's the exact same situation. I'm not condoning their actions, but I wanted to point out before everyone drops these kids in boiling oil, maybe things should be put in perspective. I mean, I've seen more compassion for terrorists.

analog

Good for you. As was said, sometimes the best thing you can do is be there during the final moments. When the time comes, we all just want someone to be there- and while nothing can be done for the physical pain, just "being there" can help tremendously when they know their time is up.

I'd call the cops on them if I were you. The police will figure out who the ringleader is. At 7 & 8, kids will roll over on a "friend" in 2 seconds- I've seen it happen a few dozen times, and it's always the same.

However, if it were me, I'd have yelled until they all cried so hard their eyes bled. There is no excuse for abusing and torturing an animal like this.

aKula

I remember here in Australia some older teenagers were seen torturing a cat, I believe they were punished quite severly by the law. Elphaba I think you misunderstood him, the way I interpreted it Marv was talking about how cats and dogs enjoy being patted.

pan6467

All I know is when I feel pain (physical or emotional) my Dinkydawg knows it and does what she can to make me feel better. When I am happy, my Dinkydawg is right there to get her share of it by my rubbing her tummy.

My dog empathizes my pain and shares in my happiness far more than my exwife ever could or most humans I have met.

If my dog can show empathy like that then she knows pain and happiness from her own experience.

I know when I step on her paw by accident and she yelps she's felt pain.

I know when I have been gone longer than usual and she welcomes me at the door with her tail wagging she knows pleasure.

I know when she wants to be alone she'll growl when I try to pet her.

I know when I yell at, and her head bows she feels guilt and sorrow.

I know when I praise her and her hers go up and her tail wags she is full of pride.

I know my Dinkydawg likes people I like, dislikes people I dislike and when my ex and I fought, Dinkydawg knew who was right and who was wrong and would take the side of the one who was right by growling, barking and nipping at the ankle..... and quite often it was me..... and no Dinky didn't react to the yelling she reacted to the emotion she felt coming from us. And Dinkydawg was not a fan of my ex, so when she took the ex's side I knew I was in the wrong.

There is no doubt in my mind that animals are far far more intelligent then some people give them credit for and are more in tuned with their feelings than most humans.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Marvelous Marv

Would you please ask your question a little more clearly, and I'll attempt to answer it, in spite of how obnoxious you've been so far?

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Glory's Sun

I hate to be a "serial killer in the making" here.. but I laughed.. yup I laughed. Cats suck.

Would I do that to a cat? No, I wouldn't. Maybe I just watch too many cartoons and just imagine the cat bouncing like a ball back to the kids.. :shrug:

shakran

You think it's funny that a living creature was beaten so badly that it died? Seek help.

Glory's Sun

No I was laughing that it was a cat being thrown against a wall. Did it deserve to die.. no.


Had I seen the act IRL, I wouldn't have laughed I'm sure.

So tell me.. why should I seek help??

JustJess

Oh, for fuck's sake, people.

1. Yes, the kids are assholes, pack mentality or not. I don't doubt it was... But they deserve to be punished and have the shit scared out of them. Kids who grow up thinking it's okay to hurt and maim another living being - human or other animal - become adults who feel the same way. And there's a lot of studies supporting the idea that sociopaths are often the culprits of this kind of shit as children.

2. guccilvr, I normally enjoy and like you. But there isn't anything funny about this.

3. alansmithee, this is not a political discussion. There is only one point: this sucks, the kids who did it suck, and it was wrong morally ethically etc as humans for them to do it. You might consider that it's getting strong reactions because it's not some depraved terrorist, it's a bunch of 7-8 yo kids. That makes it worse.

4. Elphaba, again, I normally like you. Re-read, please. Marv was making a valid point. Yin and yang, basic principles. Pleasure does not exist without pain as contrast.

How is there any question that this is wrong?

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

shakran

You answered your question with your first sentence.

Glory's Sun

SO what? I laughed. I said it was a comical image in my head. I also stated that I would have reacted differently had I actually seen the event occur. Chill out. A cat died. No need to cry over it.

Now, on to the other matter at hand. It's evident that at least a couple of kids were sorry for what they did, which is a good sign. (I'd hate for them to have to seek help like I so evidently need to ) I also need to say that if laughing at a cat being thrown against a wall is sign's of needing help, then wanting to seek out children and throw them against the wall is also a sign of needing help.

The fact is that the kids did something stupid and mean. Kids are mean. Does it constitute bad parenting? Not necessarily. Does it mean they have "serial killer" tendencies? Not necessarily. The kids were undoubtedly punished and hopefully they have learned the lesson that mistreating animals is not a good thing to do. They should just leave that up to the people drawing comics and cartoons.


no need to retort this ... I'm late for an appointment with my shrink

Redlemon

Elph, I think Marv is saying "scratched" as in "scratched with fingers behind the ears and on the belly", not "scratched with a fork and drawing blood". This demonstrates that they can experience pleasure, and if that is so, they can probably also experience pain.

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alansmithee

I didn't say it was a political discussion. I'm just saying before people stone these children, maybe they should realize it's just some stupid stray cat. You say it was wrong, I say "ehh". Being kids, they might not have been fed into the "animals are saints" belief that many in this thread seem to be putting forth. Or maybe they did realize what they were doing, and wanted to hurt it. Either way, it's not that big of a deal.

shakran

Yes, it is a big deal. The inability to feel compassion is a key trait in a psychopathic personality. If the guardians of these children didn't treat it as a big deal, the kids might grow up thinking it's OK to torture animals.

I'm frankly surprised that you fail to feel compassion for this animal. Is it because you think the cat is not worthy of compassion because the animal is not as smart as you are, or do you lack compassion for people as well?

Impetuous1

OMG. That poor cat. I'm really glad you told that kids parent what they did. I hate people who abuse animals. Those kids definitely have a screw loose. Bless you for taking care of that poor cat in the last hours of its life. It's good to know that there is still some compassion in the world.

diddagirl

Wow...what a horrible story. I am sorry you had to witness that and thankful you were there to take the cat in for its last hours. As a huge cat lover myself, I too crave to throw these children against a wall.
I'll be damned if my future children are ever without the knowledge of how animals deserve to be treated.

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alansmithee

Again, this doesn't show that these kids don't feel compassion. It would take a psychological workup to determine that. And feeling compassion for animals and feeling compassion for humans are two different things.

I'm not the most compassionate person, but I have little to none for animals. I don't believe they feel pain and emotions in the same way humans do. Animals are a lower life form than humans. But much of what I've been saying here is because I seriously think that people get too worked up over animals, and are totally desensitized toward human suffering. I remember a board I used to visit would often post videos of decapitations (I remember the decapitations in Iraq being often posted), auto accidents, and other forms of human suffering. People would often make jokes about these. But they once posted a video of two guys setting a cat on fire, and most of those same people who laughed about HUMAN death were up in arms about some cat. Personally, I think people like those are much more mentally disturbed than these kids would be. And I see much the same attitude in this thread. I mean, take a look at some of these quotes:

We have numerous desires for "beatings" as well as calls for throwing children against a wall. Now THAT'S what I call disturbing behavior.

And then this beauty:

How someone who thinks children should be thrown up against a wall should be allowed to have kids themselves, or thinks they know how anything should be treated is beyond me. As was said earlier, if laughing at a cat being thrown against a wall is sign's of needing help, then wanting to seek out children and throw them against the wall is also a sign of needing help. Only I think the second is far more grave than the first.

Ace_O_Spades

If my kid did that, I'd make him go to the animal shelter and volunteer. Teach him a little accountability for his actions, hopefully get him on the right track.

Of course, I'd be tempted to give him a good swat to the ass at first, then have the help come after.

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Feh.

shakran

Bullshit. If you feel compassion for something you don't repeatedly throw it against a wall until it's fatally wounded.

Then you're uneducated. Animals have pain receptors just like we do. They have nerves just like we do. And the part of their brains that processes pain is the same as ours.

If animals can't feel pain like we do (what the hell does that mean anyway?) then why does a dog that has been beaten cringe when you raise your hand toward it? Obviously the dog finds the pain of being beaten to be unpleasant.


Ahh yes. And anything that's not on your level should be tortured and then killed. Gotcha.


Bullshit. No one's advocating torturing people. Of your four quotes from this thread only one involves torture, and it's obvious that it's a visceral reaction that the poster would never carry out.

Maybe, but that's not the TFP.

I did. I didn't see any videos of decapitation, car wrecks, or joking about the same. I saw only angry reactions because people on here feel compassion for living things that suffer. The fact that you do not is disturbing.



And again you throw up a quote in which the first half expresses a desire, not an action (I challenge you to prove that the poster would actually go through with throwing the kids up against the wall) and the second part involves teaching children not to torture animals - while you have made it patently clear that you don't think that's something children should be taught, civilized society disagrees with you.


And while we're at it, I should point out that the cat was innocent in this matter. It didn't kill the kids or their pets. The kids killed the cat. So being angry enough at the kids to express a desire to hurt them, but not actually go through with it, is much more understandable than to decide to kill a cat just for the sake of killing it.





How someone who is so out of touch with reality as to think that EVERYTHING anyone says they wish to do, they will actually do can be taken seriously is beyond me.


If the poster actually sought out children and threw them against a wall then I would agree with you. But TALKING about throwing cruel, inhumane children against a wall is MUCH more palatable to me than actually THROWING the cat against the wall.

analog

I'd just like to add that not only do I not care about cats, I hate them. I HATE cats, I can't stand them- but to physically torture any living creature like that is fucking wrong. To be able to take a living animal and torture, maim, and hurt it intentionally is a sign of some psychological fault. There are studies on it, evaluations have been done, it's fairly well-documented. All notions of "pack mentality" aside, this is simply a fucked up thing to do to a living creature, no matter how you angle it.

alansmithee

I didn't say they felt compassion for the cat, I'm saying their behavior doesn't mean they lack ability to feel compassion. Two different things.

Again, I said they don't feel pain like humans. I refer you to the link I posted above so you can educate yourself.

Conditioned response. It doesn't find it "pleasant" or "unpleasant", it's wired so that it cringes from a negative, potentially harmful stimulus. They lack the capacity for suffering that humans do.

So apparently, when there's no logic in what you say, you retreat into hyperbole?


Ok, so when someone earlier says they initially laughed, but said they wouldn't in real life, you say seek help. But when someone says they want to bash kids into a wall, it's "a visceral reaction that the poster would never carry out" . Some consistency would be nice. Why couldn't laughter be "a visceral reaction that the poster would never carry out" in real life? Or is it easier to make a snap judgement based on your own personal beliefs?



But much of the reactions are similar, as pointed out in the quotes I posted.


What about compassion for children? Many people here seemed to be perfectly willing to beat and torture children for the sake of a cat. Now THAT'S disturbing behavior.

I challenge you to prove anything someone says on a message board. That's a ridiculous statement, on a message board where all you have to go by about others is what they type. You were perfectly fine with telling someone to seek help when they said they laughed, but wouldn't in real life. But when someone expresses a sick desire to abuse children, you need proof that they would carry through? And the backhanded comment about my civility (or lack thereof) was cute, but baseless. Looking at the general punishments carried out for people "torturing" animals would seem to suggest that it's not a big deal. Now however, society does place a very high value on protecting children. So maybe you should be lecturing some other people in this thread about their civility, or lack of.

How do you know the cat is innocent? What if earlier it had tried to claw one of the children? Were you there? Or is it easier to justify child abuse if you try to imagine the poor, widdle, puddy cat was just being tortured and abused endlessly for days by the mean, evil, sadistic children? And again, you keep making the assumption that these people wouldn't go through with child abuse, with no evidence to the contrary.


You seemed to have no problem doing it earlier.


Again, you mistakenly attach cruelty and inhumanity to these children. It would require a psychological workup to determine if these children really felt they were causing suffering, or were just being kids. At that age, they might not have realized it. And again, your support for child abuse is quite disgusting to me, it points to a deeply disturbed individual. I would seek professional help, or at least not be around children.

shakran

I'm not going to bother responding to all that crap you posted because this sentence proves that you're not interested in a logical debate, or in the truth. Nowhere in this thread or anywhere else on this forum have I EVER supported child abuse. The fact that you accuse me of such shows that you just make shit up when you want to win an argument. In short, this ain't worth it.

Cruelty to animals is wrong, plain and simple. I do not need to see a psych workup to know if something is cruel or not. I do not need to see a psych workup to know if someONE is being cruel. And that crap about kids not knowing that what they're doing to the cat hurts it is just that - pure and utter crap. I knew that hitting an animal causes pain long before I was 7. Your willingness to excuse inexcuseable behavior just because the wrongdoer is a child disturbs me. And the difference between what disturbs me and what disturbs you is that you actually expressed that willingness. I never expressed support for child abuse.

alansmithee

Ahh, the old "I can't win, so I'll claim you're making stuff up". It's especially humourous when you consider half of what you were saying was imaginary, hyperbole, insult, or just plain wrong. You were supporting people making comments about wanting to abuse children. This is not in doubt. To me, condoning other people's desire to abuse children is no different from abusing children youself.

Then, you don't understand even the smallest bit about child psychology. Remain ignorant if you like, but don't think that because you don't know something means it doesn't exist. I hope you never have children, I'm sure they would be in for a rough ride.