Before I start responding to yuor post, let me make clear that I was responding based on what I thought you were saying,, highlighted by this quote:
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Originally Posted by xepherys
I think the recent (two decades or so) of child violence has increased BECUASE parents can't beat their kids anymore and school don't implement corporal punishment.
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This leads me to believe that beating (being excessively violent) to kids is your answer. The word 'beating', to me, is the extreme of physical punishment. I just want to make that clear.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
Haha, I'm not saying you should smack them around or beat them to a pulp... but I got spanked as a child. And I can recall specifically learning those lessons very well. My ten year old son... I've had to spank him ONCE ever in his life. He's VERY well behaved. That single time was the last time he ever "begged" me for things, and also the last time he talked back. He's not afraid of me. I didn't have to leave bruises or beat him half to death. Two good swats on the ass, in the middle of a store did him a world of good.
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I believe that there is a clear difference between a controled spanking given consistantly out of love and for the childs good versus beating a child. If you did not leave bruises and it was clear to your son that you were doing it for his own good, then I simply see that as you doing what is necessary as a parent to instill good values in your son. My argument was based on my understanding that you support the beating of children and you thinking therepy is useless.
The reason that my tone and position on you specifically have changed is beacuse your position has seemingly changed. Where as in your above post you supported beating kids, you now do not support beating kids, and have cited that in your history you have only spanked your child once seemingly for good reason. I believe this repesents a falacy in your response. You made argument A. I responded to argument A. You changed your argument to argument B, and are insisting that my argument against your argument A is incorrect, trying to compare it to argument B.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
Also, I'm amused by your background with therapists. I have a couple in my family that I find to be useless as hell. I don't have a bad temper at all. Your comment "and can become enraged at the drop of a hat"... how has it any bearing? Do I have a short temper, or does the OP, because it was enraging that kids were throwing a living animal against a wall? Oh, only because I disagree with your viewpoint is in a temperment issue. Hmmm, interesting. I wonder what your therapist parents would have to say to that.
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I see this as an angry outburst :
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Originally Posted by xepherys
Fuck therapy. Fuck blaming parents. Fuck assuming everything is a result of the environment.
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After making this statement, you wrote out that you let out a sigh, as if pulling back from your aggressive statements. This was clearly an outburst founded in anger. Does it have bearing? Absolutely. The fact that you defended beating children, the attacked psychology, blaming parents, and blaming environment, and then had an outburst is quite telling.
The OP was there, in real life. He was able to take positive action. Yes, he was angry, but instead of channeling his anger into a blind attack, he used it constructively in order to attempt to make a positive change.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
Psychology and therapy is not really a science as much as an interpretive artistic practice. Over the course of any decade, a lot comes and goes. Sure, this is true with any science, but psychology can actually scar people. If they decide that the half life of plutonium was previously incorrect, this does not lead to problems with someone's psyche. If they determine that hey, maybe the Ferber method is bad... well, let's hope those kids aren't too screwed up. Frankly, I find psychology to be nothing more than a slightly better accepted phrenology. So using the fact that you have therapists as parents does little or nothing in my eyes to better your PoV.
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Incorrect. Psychology is, in fact, a science. Also, artistic practices, take musical composition for example, take advantage of theory as a guideline. Science and artistic practice are not mutually exclusive. Anything can scar someone. Biology can be used to cure or to kill, does that make it any less of a science? In fact, main stream psychology has remained more than constand for the last 20 + years.
Frankly, I help people, and my mother helps people. I am not looking for your approval.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
* I was spanked as a child, and I'm not violent. I've been in one fight in my life, it was in high school, and I was defending myself. I must be a real bastard because my parents "hit" me. Oddly enough, from an environmental factor, both of my paretns smoked and my dad (and many on his side) were raging alcholics. I'm neither. Wow, it's CRAZY how that childhood environment so shapes our lives. It's called having a choice of how we turn out.
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Environmental situations, such as being abused as a child, do not always result in cd or antisocial behavior, but they CAN. There was a possibiliy that you could have grown up with cd because of your parents actions, and there was a possibility that you wouldn't. You can find similar situations in physics (another science).
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Originally Posted by xepherys
* I have a cousin whose mother tried discipling him repsectfully. She explained things, she was consistant, and even got him evalutaed and eventually medicated. He was STILL a total asshole for the first 20 years of his life, torturing animals of all sorts and being rather psychotic. Must've been that healthy hands-off approach.
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Like I said above, we are dealing in possibilities. There is a possibility that some kids will develop cd for reasons outside of their parents actions, though it is much more rare. In biology, recessive genes come up, despite being more rare.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
I think the point I'm trying to make is that neither nessecarily work for EVERY kid. But a kid like that... what do you think therapy will do for him? Therapy helps less kids than one might think. However, unlike adults, kids (even disturbed ones) tend to seek approval from adults. This would include saying things that shrinks want to hear, and making it seem like progress was being made. In fact, that's exactly how I treated my psychologist that I saw after my dad died. I was pushed into it by family (I didn't WANT therapy) and so I made the best of it by "going along with the program". It's fairly typical behavior from children, as I'm sure many child development folk might concur with. It's crazy how rock solid that psychology stuff is, huh?
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I almost certianbally have more experience with being in and learning about therepy than you, so when you make statements like "Therapy helps less kids than one might think.", what I think is
this guy doesn't understand psychology or therepy at all, and is now bad mouthing something he doesn't understand. You remind me of Tom Cruise on the Today show bad mouthing psychology, saying things like "I've done the research, Matt." The reason that child psychology is more effective than you claim is because psychologiest recognise behavioral patterns, such as wanting to please adults, when treating a child patient. Believe it or not, hundreds of years of scientific development in psychology has mastered what you have figured out.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
As a side note, I'm sorry if you got "a good ass kicking" confused with actaully bludgeoning a kid. When I hear someone say "a whalloping" "ass kicking" or other term, I tend to take it half heartedly. I doubt most people who actually beat the hell out of their kids with fists and feet would advertise as such. Maybe it's just my military background speaking. A drill sergeant might "kick our ass"... it didn't mean we bled out by the end of the day. I would NEVER hit my child with the intent to injure him. EVER! Sorry if that got misconstrued. However, I stand by my (now reworded) argument. There are also situations where the only truly appropriate punishment is a spanking.
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I was not given a context in which to percieve what you were saying as an exaggeration, so I took it at face value.
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Originally Posted by xepherys
Oh, just read the bottom of your first paragraph. I have a 10-year old son and a newborn baby son. Neither of them will EVER get actually beaten in a violent fashion. Both are apt (well, not the baby... obviously) to get a spanking if they so deserve... even my 10 year old... I'm not an abusinve parent, and I have plenty of experience thank you.
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Again, I was basing my argument on your first post, in which you make it clear that beating kids is not only okay, but has positive results. You have represented yourself and your standpoint in two very different ways. I will choose to assume that the second post, including clairifications, is your true standpoint and an accurate representation of yourself.