Halx

The following is a chatlog from the TFP IRC channel (which I strongly suggest everyone take the time to check out) in which a few of us discussed the current state of the TFP and what is going on and what needs to change.

The Cliff Notes goes like this: I'm gonna make some changes around here. I'd like input.

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Lasereth

The only thing I disagree with is attemting to open up another forum that is waaay too similar to TFP. Stick with one or the other or you'll end up with one being way more active than the other, or even worse, both simply fizzling out.

I don't really get SC's comments about Hal though. This is his site, he created it, there's no reason to act like he doesn't deserve a bit of respect.

BTW: in a nutshell, the reason TFP isn't doing as well as it used to is due to new members being bitch slapped anytime they create a new thread that's not 1,000 characters long or when their thread is closed when they didn't use the search feature to find the other similar thread from 2003 that is dead.

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JustDisGuy

Well, you asked for suggestions Hal so here's my $.02:
I've been absent from the TFP for probably a year and a half, and coming back now with a fresh perspective I'd have to agree that while still great, it's not as great as it used to be. I've noticed the absence of several people whose posts I used to look forward to, but also the presence of some people with real presence who have been around here for a long time. *Edit-ok, now I know what the C?A stuff is about. What harm a little experimentation, sez I.

My suggestion for TFP may or may not be technically feasible for the forums based on the software you're using, but here goes. One of the big issues I picked up from your (REALLY long) chat log is that there's concern that people who post responsibly might be subjected to "douchebaggery". Maybe a system that allowed members to 'rate' other members, and sufficient negative ratings demoted the person being rated to n00b status or something like that...?

Also, maybe send an email to members who've been absent for a lengthy time to tell them about the changes you're making - see if you can't entice a few more of the people back who left...?

Supple Cow

I know I kind of sounded like a dick, but it's not that I don't think he deserves ANY respect. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't letting an overwhelming and almost fearful amount of deference keep me from saying what I think needed to be said. I think that that deference aspect (which is unfortunately tied in with the healthy amount of respect) is built into the culture around here. I didn't think it was doing us any good and I feel that we've cleared the air a bit about what role he DOES expect to have around here. I have mucho respect for his creation and his continued efforts (and I know they are great efforts) to keep this place going.

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fresnelly

I'd just like to say that any tension or "lines being drawn" between feuding members flies completely over my head and I imagine it's the same for most. We come, we read, we sometimes post, and pursue what interests us.

In other words, a handful of strained relationships isn't going to rot the core of this place. It's a much bigger board than that.

/heads off to the Where Am I In Canada? Thread

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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

Tigerlily

Excuse me for butting in when I'm such a newb here, but I've been around forums in general a long long time.

It's when you start taking things TOO seriously that the place goes to shit. Aren't general forums supposed to be a fun place to interact with other people.

It's the internet, it's not rocket science, and it's not life and death. If the owner of the site wants to run the site a certain way, then it seems to me he/she is entirely entitled to do it, and if there's a few casualties along the way... then that's just how it goes.

Halx

Thanks for bringing this up. It's one of the things we hate enforcing, but we don't want to let the board turn into something resembling a neglected backroad.

This is a good idea. I think I'll use your suggestion.

Do you notice a difference in the board from how it was a couple years ago? If so, can you put your finger on the reason for the change?

First of all, I gotta say that appealing to new users is what is going to pull us through this. However, one thing about the TFP is we've always tried to be fairly ... special. If you can say that for a general topic message board. That requires a delicate balance of meddling on my part and just letting people do their thing. I'll admit that it has limited our membership numbers, but that said nothing for the quality of experience.

In any case, I'm still dedicated to making this site the best it can be.

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JumpinJesus

You didn't sound like a dick at all. You sounded like someone who gives a shit about TFP. In fact, I was reading the chat over shesus' shoulder and when I saw what you were saying, it compelled me to come in because I thought you were being courageous and I wanted to be part of what you were doing.

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fresnelly

A couple of years ago the board was new to me. Every time I logged on I discovered a different aspect or found a new interesting member. I was much more open to what this place was. Like any environment, the fire of novelty is bound to wane a bit over time. My own role changed from gob smacked newbie to... well... a comfortable participant I guess.

Surely I'm not alone in that, but I hope that we don't all confuse our own individual and internal complacencies for an objective board decline. I believe this sort of egocentric confusion accounts for some of the outspoken malaise this past year.

There a number of disappeared members that I miss too, but what's to be done? Life marches on.

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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

ngdawg

One of the downsides of a 'successful' forum (and I've been seeing this elsewhere, not just here), is, in the length of time the forums around, added to the amount(in sheer numbers) of users, personalities, coupled with perceived predictability start to come into play. TFP is in middle age in internet years, far outlasting many other forums. One person always responds to that person out of old-time habits and the perceived predictability, leading to a why bother, leading to less posting until something new comes up....and the older it gets, the less something new comes up....a common phrase used here lately is 'I haven't been posting here for a while....'
People get a comfort zone as well and 'personalities' and quirks show through-now you have likes and dislikes based on what you see on your screen.
Put in real-life relationships (TFP has many married, dating, related members as well as friendships in real life and yes, animosity) and it affects how one 'behaves', albeit text-based.
The mod/owner thing mentioned is brought up on occasion. While this is a forum and not a 'business', anything with people trying to run/control/moderate needs a chain of command. If it doesn't why are there admins/super mods/ mods? I will say, TFP runs quite well with very little mod interference-they've been used more as Dear Abby at some points or go-betweens for one-on-one conflicts-not sure that's a good idea, using anyone as a mediator. A mediator down the line, though, might not be a bad idea.
(hmm...there's an untapped business:forum-participant conflict mediator)
Everyone's going to offer up ideas, suggestions on how to make it 'better' but it won't get better if no one wants to work at what's wrong first.
Then when it gets better, it will be a place that people want to go to, not run like hell from. All the advertising in the world isn't gonna do squat if you don't live up to it.

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Craven Morehead

I'm not a big contributor here but I do check in almost daily. I come to TF as a diversion from life. When TF begins to reflect the same things I deal with on an everyday basis is when TF begins to lose my attention. I don't get to contribute as much as I would like, I just don't have the time to build relationships here. So maybe that's why much of the complaints are foreign to me. I think its a bit much to expect a forum with as many members as this to be a complete nirvana however as with any forum, problems do arise. I hope whatever steps are taken, keep the spirit of TF alive. Because this really is a special place on the internet. I'm not sure if I added anything to this conversation but felt I needed to put my own $.02 in. Hal, thanks for what you do and have done. I hope it can continue.

shakran

Combining this with a politics board is just asking for trouble. A user-rating system is just too damn easy to abuse - look at Ebay's feedback mechanism if you want examples. I'd bet more than half of the negative feedback on there is from people seeking petty revenge rather than reporting the true facts about a transaction.

Halx, the trouble with the TFP is partly that it's on the internet. Internet hangouts come and go faster than any pre-net fad you've ever heard of. I bet few people here have thought of Geocities or telnet talkers in quite awhile, but not so very long ago they were THE place to be on the net. Geocities killed itself by being stupid, true enough, but the talkers were going strong until ICQ came along - - - now we have cute sound effects to go along with the chatting, and no more wizards to stop us from being assholes, so everyone migrated. Then ICQ got uncool because AIM came out (though why anything from AOL was ever accepted is still beyond me) even though they were essentially the same damn thing. But it's pretty hard to find someone with a UIN anymore. I'm amazed I still remember mine.

Myspace was booming, now everyone's off making the same damn pages on a different service. Why? It's the faddish nature of the net.

Frankly the only reason the TFP is visited anymore at all is because it's managed to attract people with higher intelligence than the average net.nimrod. We have longer attention spans, so we stick around.


I think this new forum of yours has interesting possibilities if you use it correctly. Frankly I think you should migrate all the porn over there and make TFP a pure discussion community. I'll tell you why.

Many of us here on TFP would love to invite our friends to join up, but we certainly can't be telling our coworkers and friends-who-might-not-understand to come to a site that has porn on it. It's a real good way to get fired or sued in today's puritanical world.

The way you used to attract people was by dangling the porno carrot in front of them. Hey come look at all the naked women. Oh and by the way now that you've looked at them for awhile if you want to KEEP looking at them, start talking or get deleted. You attracted a lot of people that way, many of whom became contributing members.

But now you have the porn locked off to new users - so you've cut out the, for want of a better phrase, marketing value of the porn. The porn hunters are going to go somewhere that they can get porn NOW, not in 2 weeks. And the people who are looking for a discussion community instead of the porn aren't going to come here because, hell, it's a bunch of damn porno freaks. The simple fact is, TFP's porn has become a liability if your goal is to attract new members.

Meanwhile you have the only forum on the net where real discussions can and do happen. Sure, people talk on other forums, but they rarely discuss. Either things move too freakin' fast (go visit the hard forum. If your post isn't replied to within about 2 minutes, it's already scrolled off the new post list and no one will see it), or they're overmoderated and therefore a ghost town, or they're undermoderated and therefore a haven for morons. TFP has largely managed to avoid all of this and in the process attract a core group of posters who are, in defiance of most internet trends, capable of having intelligent discussions. But it's difficult for that core group to grow if new blood isn't constantly coming in - - - hence the problem of the porn.

Now, if you moved the porn over to this new forum, I think you'd get a lot of people to be comfortable coming to TFP to check it out. It's no longer a porn forum, it's one of the oldest discussion communities on the internet and hey! It actually has smart people posting on it. That's a pretty attractive formula if you ask me.

Halx

shakran, that was awesome. I'm definitely looking into your points. One thing I have to say is that to a new visitor, there is only one place on the site that even mentions the porn, which is the rules and guidelines. Do you really think new users know there is porn to be had?

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KnifeMissile

I really don't think this is the cause of the lack of traffic on the TFP. I've been here for a while now, I haven't left or taken a break of any kind and I've hardly seen any of these closed "newbie" threads of which you speak.

I understand your attitude with old threads. What I don't understand is people's fear of bumping up old threads. The official policy here is that if a thread topic has alredy been discuss, you add to that pre-existing thread rather than make a new one. Yet, whenever I do that, people get all weird on me, saying "why'd you bring this up after all these years?" It's forum policy that I do! Where's this confusion come from?


Finally, here is my personal opinion on the current state of the TFP.

It's really the same old site it has always been except with a lot less traffic. I appreciate that the site isn't filled with fuck-wits but it would be nice if it were a little more lively. I don't know what we can do about this. I'm sure it's advertised as much as it can be and that we recommend it to all who would be even remotely interested. Two colleagues of mine, Yakk and PsychoMan are on this site from my recommendation (it was all I could talk about for a while). Yakk is still here (and might even post more often than I do) but PsychoMan hasn't posted since 2004. Why didn't he stick around? No reason in particular. Too busy with life and not enough interest in this forum. No big deal except that more and more people are feeling this way about the TFP, it seems. Who can say why?

I noticed that Tilted Knowledge was merged with some other forum 'cause it was so dead. Considering how this forum has some of my very best posts, you can see why my presence isn't nearly as known as it once was.

I don't see anything wrong with Concept: Anarchy. The idea is worth an experiment. I think Supple Cow is insane and her attitude is inscrutable.

I'd like to hear more opinions on the state of the TFP. The last time I brought up the lack of traffic here all I got was an unhealthy amount of "it's summer, they'll be back in the fall" denial. Honestly, you don't solve problems by denying they exist and being defensive will never help you...

Tigerlily

Can I suggest some things I've noticed as a newb:

a) Work on the newb's forum then. If you look at that forum, and the average number of welcomes or greetings people receive in there... well it's pretty shoddy. If you're not a strong character you're going to feel very intimidated by that, and... I'm not sure how many mods you have here, but every single active one of them should be in there welcoming new people.

b) the sheer amount of different rules and warnings all over the place. For example, I wanted to post 3 different threads, but have now convinced myself not to because all the rules all over the place have confused me to where they should go, AND how they'd be received.

Just some observations. :dunno:

Ace_O_Spades

Wow, this is so true... I can't remember the last time I went there to greet newbies.

Welcome!


As for the forum Halx:

I'll be rockin the TFP as long as it's around. Even if I've been lurking lately, I do stop by now and then. School commands most of my attention.

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Feh.

Nizzle

I ceased being active on this board some time ago. Mind you, I was never "important" (I quote this to draw attention to it, because it's important). Myself and my girlfriend frequented the site because it was active, exciting, and interesting. It was edgy. It was fun. I would like to direct you to something:

http://www.embarcgroup.com/content/e.../detail/q/id/2

The 1% rule. This should not be unknown to anyone who is serious about online communties. It's nothing new, but I think its impact is being ignored here. I was not in the 1%, I was more in the 10%. I wasn't important, but I contributed. The 1% drove me out. This is what happened to this community.

I think this was the ultimate failing of the TFP. In my case, it was over politics. Having liberal views *IS NOT ACCEPTABLE* on this board. Oh, you can argue with me, and I'm sure you will. But it is simply the case that the people with very conservative views (including many moderators) pushed us out. We were scum, and that was made very very very VERY clear. It was made very clear to me that I was not welcome here. This isn't up for debate. I had everyone against me, moderators, frequent posters, you name it. My views were not acceptable, period.

The problem? Not politics. It was giving too much power to people with chips on their shoulder and bones to pick. Giving too much power to those who used the active community to bolster their own point of view. I saw how that played out in a politics forum, but I believe the root cause probably manifested itself in many other ways. The simple fact was, if you weren't the 1%, you were not welcome. That drives your (more important) 10% out, and the 89% left drift away once the trainwreck plays itself out.

The bottom line is, when you are dealing with an online community, you are dealing with the 1% rule. The 1% who make the community, the 10% who tenously contribute, and the 89% who lurk. Don't give the 1% too much control or you will lose your (more valuable) 10%, and the 89% will leave on their own.

I don't know of any practical solutions. In fact, at this point I don't care. I load this forum once every 2-3 months out of boredom. At one time I did care and felt this was my online home, but I was alienated to maximum potential, so don't expect much from me but my opinion, be it unpopular or not.

Essentially? Just be aware that the most vocal will seem the majority, and it is safe and natural to give way to these people. If you pay enough attention to your community you will know who your 1% and your 10% are and know not to let the 1% dominate. If you fail to pay attention to this, you are in trouble. If you promote them all to high-level moderators, you are DOOMED.

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Nizzle

skier

I figured i would post my piece here.

When i joined early in 2003 (has it been that long?) I was hooked by the well thought out posts and welcoming attitude towards any contribution. New members were given acknowledgment and if they deserved it, praise. There was a large emphasis on evolution, and progression in the forums.

As a result I learned a great deal. More than that, with the help of the community I came to a better understanding of myself and the world around me. It seemed that a majority of posts were about challenging one's percieved notions, reaching beyond a certain comfort level, or attempting to see another's viewpoint.

It is my belief that the emphasis on evolution and the progression that it implied lent a hostile view on issues presented by new members that had already been discussed and set aside by older members. It was on the newbies to "catch up" to the level of discussion currently at hand. I think this was the beginning of the decline of TFP. Many of the progressed threads fell apart due to the input by newer members that had missed an earlier discussion. The few threads that did not fall prey to this dumbing down were either too hostile or obscure for new members to find a common frame of reference. (i can think a few of ArTelevision threads...)

But basically, as the board matured, there arose an increased hostility towards immaturity. Rather than a pat on the head and a guiding word or two, it was a slap on the bum and a stern point to the search button. As membership slowed and some older members dropped out, the TFP momentum slowed and eventually stalled. I think the creation of tilted trampoline, a forum for just screwing around, was a major indication of that. A playground for veterans with nothing better to do.

as for advice on what to do next?

1. Increased tolerance for rehashing old issues. Acknowledge a new member's contribution or thread (if there is actually a contribution), and allow discussion of that issue. The issue will either be rapidly resolved (as there will be widespread agreement on the correct solution) or it will cause heated discussion in which case it is an interesting enough topic to get people excited about it.

2. Re-evaluate the evolution philosophy. To me, it seems like pure evolution on this board has created elitism and self-imposed stagnation. Reform the system to constantly welcome fresh faces; even if they may not be as far along the track of older members.

3. Create a venue for older members to discuss finer/deeper points of broader viewpoints brought up in threads. I'm not sure about this because it seems as though this would reinforce the elitist perception, and would have to be controlled strictly.

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Charlatan

There is a lot to absorb here.

One of the interesting aspects of C:A is that a lot of it feels like the Nonsense part of TFP used to feel like. This is not a bad thing.

Nonsense, to me and many others, was the place where were most creative. Yes, some of the threads were juvenile, puerile and lot's of other "iles" but I made more connection there than I ever did in Politics.

Taking Nonsense out of the "new posts" was a mistake. It relegated a vibrant and creative part of the board into a backwater. The demand for this sort of activity is clear.

With regards to C:A and the attacks that were happening there (no fingers are being pointed), much of it has been brewing here for some time (I don't think many are aware of this). It was a boil that needed to be lanced (sadly there is no anesthetic for this sort of procedure). The thing for me is that it didn't take opening a new Forum to achieve this result.

All of the complaints and issues could have been solved here. I agree with the earlier comments made that an adjustment of the rules could have perhaps had better results.

I would also like to back up Supple Cow to an extent. Yes, Hal owns the place. He set this beast in motion. But it isn't just his place. Over the last five years WE have made this place, and that I mean all of the users and mods and admin. There is no one person responsible for all of this. Evolution isn't just one guy.

Recognizing this, it is important to remember that as a member you have a responsibility to work towards making the place the ideal place. If you were to just flame and shout garbage all over the place, it loses the element that allows discussion and the things Shakran mentioned above. However, as a member you shouldn't feel that you cannot call a spade a spade. Calling someone on their bullshit should never be an issue.

I think it was stated very clearly above: "Whatever you have to say, say it with maturity." There are ways to tell someone they are being an asshole without necessarily calling them an asshole. Of course, sometimes Asshole is the only appropriate word and it is worth the warning.

I have no conclusion to this... only that we should be more open when there are big 400 pound issues that are killing the board.

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Chimera

"<ngdawg> do what most other forums do and put mods for specific forums, not all over...
<shesus> I have kids that tattle to me all day...I say what goes. I think the same would go here
<JumpinJesus> that could be a good idea.
<Supple_Cow> Hal, as person in charge of TFP (and I don't say it facetiously), don't you think you have that capacity for judgment?
<ngdawg> where they 'police', they have to be objective in order to post
<Hal> i cant make every decision, SC
<shesus> hehe..who would take politics then? lol"


tecoyah....would come back for this job....happily


To me the issue here is participation and commitment. Likely we are dealing with a catch 22, as interest wanes in the community people walk away for whatever reason and that small part of what is TFP goes with them. The cumulative effect is now bieng felt on the pages of this forum, if only because so many are no longer contributing to the place, out of frustration.
I am as guilty (or moreso) as anyone of neglect, but have found a marked negativity from a certain member (who I cannot put on ignore due to settings), has made me less than enthusiastic about continuing to try, in fact he is the reason I turned in the suit in the first place. It may seem petty, but its simple reality, If the frustration outwieghs the satisfaction, its just not worth the effort.
Thus we come to the primary issue I see in this whole conversation:

Calling out a detriment to this Satisfaction level, without becoming the very thing you are calling out in the first place.

This is not an easy thing to do....obviously. But, if it can be figured out (and yes, I have a few Ideas), it would go a long way toward removing the frustration that drives many away.

ShaniFaye

Ok...I read the chat....havent read the responses yet because I wanted to say the one thing that came to mind immediately.

Halx, I say this with respect so please bear that in mind, and I say this as a person that has run forums for however long invision software has been around.

You left....Im not saying you didnt have life needs that made that necessary...but you created a place that was a haven for those of us that were tired of the C:A type boards. You made a place where a person could have an opinion and the "you suck, go away fat ass" type comments were simply not allowed. You made a place that actually made a person present a well thought out argument for "why I suck" and being a fat ass couldnt be a reason.

Then you did what I compare to "giving your child up to the foster care system"

While I wont pretend that you and I have ever gotten along and I have thought to myself many times "I need to remember what I was like when I was a kid read:someone in their 20's" I respected you "yeah there is that dreaded word" because it was YOUR board, YOUR rules because I knew from YOUR side what it takes to run a forum, and it was nice to be a guest for once. I also wont pretend that I was miffed the several times you asked for mod applications and I applied and was never even acknowledged....keep in mind I'm not saying I was miffed because I wasnt "chosen" I was miffed because no one took the time to even say "Hey Shannon, got your app but we've decided that because of <insert reason> you dont have anything to offer in the place of "authority". Its kinda like putting in a job application and never hearing back from the person.

Back to the foster care thing....Yeah you "left", but when you decided to come back you expected everyone one to hoot and holler and bow down....it doesnt work that way. You cant leave an infant to be raised by others and expect to come back to find things the same.

I made no secret about my opinions in the what happened to tfp thread....you've got mods that are not showing by example. You've got mods (not all mind you) that have the "do as I say not as I do" attitude. If I want that, I'll go to church thank you very much.

You say its to "high brow " here now.....maybe you're just not recognizing that those of us that call tfp home are doing it for very specific reasons....because its not another C:A type board.

I have long said there are two ways to disagree. One is childish and immature and one is the adult way. I can take disagreement just fine when its done the 2nd way. Here at tfp even if people disagree I KNOW WHY and I learn from other peoples thought out opinions.

Of course anyone that runs a forum has a "god" complex, and yes we like to hear the kudos and praise, because WE are the one that pay for it, not only monetarily, but in the 2 am "oh I have an idea that I cant wait to implement" way as well.

"We" are the ones that have to worry up if the upgrade will go right, or if the new skin we came across will be liked or if the new policy decision we've made will make or break the board....but at the same time we have to remember without the members "We" have no forum. "We" have to remember we cant just poo poo something because its not something "We" are interested in. Case in point the Pet Forum (I use this because I was reprimanded). MANY of us were asking for one and we were told....show us a need for it, start threads and see what happens. Well I did that and got told to stop and that I was being a smart ass about it, when in reality if that person had asked me what my intention was instead of treating me like a 2 year old, they would have seen that in all honesty I thought I was doing what we were asked to do and that just completely rubbed me the wrong way.

Like I stated in the other thread....I was all for supporting you and your new forum, I signed up the minute you posted about it and set about for a "light hearted" evening of fun only to watch it turn into a new version of TRG (which will mean nothing to you but its what I wanted my boards NOT to be and its an abomination that I want no part of).

There ARE people that dont find that crap amusing or fun in any capacity and as a donor to TFP, who had put you on my bill list every month starting in 2007 for a paltry 20 bucks a month, Im still trying to figure out how you can say that donor funds dont in anyway relate to C:A when if you do a whois it shows they are using the same name server and to be quite honest....I dont want to pay for C:A, that would be like someone who boycotts Wal Mart shopping at Sams Club.

I've rambled long enuff without the aid of coffee....I hope at least one thing I've said makes sense, if not...ask and I will try to clarify.

I think if you want the genuine kudos and praise and credit, you need act like you give a damn about what we have to say instead of trying to play "god"

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KnifeMissile

Could you provide some links to the threads where this happened, please? I've taken a look at your post history and I couldn't find what you described. Are you referring to your two closed threads?

analog

I disagree. I've never personally seen the point in drilling down specific mods to specific areas of a forum, unless those mods had specific relevant insight/knowledge that lent itself to the area. The main point of which being that if the one or two people "assigned" to this or that area become busy in their personal lives, that area goes ignored because the other mods are "assigned" to their separate little corners.

I don't think that is a good idea, and I don't think it has any place here. Other boards are other boards- they are not the TFP.

The mod staff controlling the whole of the board was the norm for a long time (if not since the beginning) and that's remained constant, despite the "changes" that have gone on. I think even one of shesus' school children can tell you that since things were fine at one point, and the mod arrangement (i.e. not having specific forums) hasn't changed, then the mod arrangement has nothing to do with the issues we're facing- there are some other catalysts at work here.

Also: I'm not really sure why the rules seem tough, I'd like to have a good dialog with someone about that. It seems like they're pretty straight-forward... be respectful, post quality, and participation advances you in the boards. I think those 3 things sum it all up nicely- do those things and I can't see where you could really stray.

Everything else is common sense... don't know where a potential thread should go? Take a moment and think. Is this a discussion? Put it in general discussion. Is this about your car? Tilted Motors. Are you female and you want to talk to other females about your female down-there-parts? Ladies Lounge. Talking about sex and relationships? Sexuality. Life? Tilted living. It's really not difficult if you consider that they're all labeled for what they contain. Discussions, sexuality, living, parenting, pets... whatever you want to start a discussion about, there is a forum you can put it in.

I also want to stress that you all can PM us to ask us questions. It seems like sometimes things are complained about that could have been resolved if someone had used the "report this post to a moderator" button or just PM'ed one of us for help. We want to help you out if you're having an issue. I know for myself, I am available constantly (especially at night time into morning) and I'm happy to help you out with anything I can. We can be a great resource if you're feeling confused about a rule or something... use that resource before you become disenchanted.

Ratman

I joined the TFP in version2.0, and honestly the thing that brought me here was a link from fark to the porn. However, I found an engaging range of individuals, young and old, that could actually discuss issues, give advice, comfort console and congratulate each other as the situation merited. There were only 5? or 6? different forums. There were a few IT geeks , but most of us answered computer questions based on personal experience or trial and error. I learned a lot in those days about many things, including the value of human compassion from strangers.

I am not a regular contributor now for several reasons. First, there are too many boards. I regularly visit 7 or 8. That limits the sense of community of the TFP as a whole. I don't know a lot of the people here, because I have no interest in gaming, and never go there. Not even once. In real life, your friends have a variety of interests, and you accept them as such- multi-faceted - even if you don't share all of thier interests. As it is I have no idea if Bill-O-Rights has any interest in gaming, because I have never read those threads, and they don't crossover.

Second, I have no interest in trying to communicate with people who feel they have nothing to learn. Every forum is populated by the experts that express thier opinions so strongly, have so much to personally lose by giving an inch in any discussion, that it becomes a flame war in all but the profanity. Nobody grows or changes their view. Members with valuable experience are shouted down by these people, regardless of the topic, and it becomes intimidating to post. If you know you are going to be persecuted for saying "I like Brittney Spears. She makes my butt move." on the music forum, you probably won't say anything.

Third, many of the "old regulars" have either given up or gone to TFP chat. I am not chat saavy, and have no desire to become so. My time is limited and valuable, and if I can't get the gist of a thread, and reply quickly if I want to, I'm not interested. I am surprised when I see Halx and some of the other Mods contributing to threads other than to warn or close them. Chat has become the TFP of old for those who have the desire and skill to go there. I know there are several of the people that I respected on TFP 2.0 that now only show up in chat.

I know that things change and evolve. I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't think it need be Darwinian, or limited to those that can take a punch. Discussion on the internet is fine, arguing on the net is a waste of my time. When arguments further devolve into attacks on semantics and grammer and spelling, it is truly ridiculous. I still come here, I still contribute. Sometimes it is really interesting, sometimes I'm gone in five minutes. I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't think it could be improved more, especially with guidance. I would suggest that the powers that be get off the chat channel and into the threads as contributors more often. Become one of "us" again. Then you will truly know the state of the TFP.

Respectfully,

Ratman

__________________
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference.

"God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

JustDisGuy

Good point, Shakran. I tend to assume altruism in others, much to my regular disappointment. Maybe something like the Slashdot Karma score then, where as your kharma score rises you gain moderator points which you can use to 'mod up' or 'mod down' other people's comments, and the moderators get 'meta-moderated' by other people for fairness in their original decisions. It's a system that works reasonably well in a much larger group of people.

JumpinJesus

Good point and this is exactly my feeling. A certain few (not moderators) have been allowed (not through approval, but through indifference perhaps) to devolve the boards into a happy love-fest of domestication. This is an 18+ forum and we're at the point where people are actually concerned that an avatar with nudity is offensive. While not everyone feels this way, the fact that there are members who have to question the offensiveness of nudity on an adult-oriented board sums up exactly what has happened here. And then, if there is a disagreement, they are shouted down by those select few who have used admins and moderators to settle their disputes instead of directly addressing the ones with whom they take offense. I have watched threads where moderators have come in and expressed their views only to be shouted down by those few members who insist that moderators keep their opinions to themselves. It's become a henhouse where once one of the hens feels picked on, the others swoop in. This is how TFP was supposed to evolve? I hardly think so.

After the debacle in C:A which inevitably spilled over into here, my initial reaction was to leave this place altogether and let the hens have it. The Pet Forum was a good example. Yes, a lot of people wanted to talk about their pets, but this isn't what TFP was. Instead of adapting to TFP, they forced TFP to adapt to them by flooding General Discussion with pet topics and harrassing admins until the admins finally caved.

A lot of the members at C:A felt the same way, which is why the events that transpired came to pass. We were not going to allow the same thing to happen. But I think the feeling is starting to shift towards TFP. I think what's happening is we're deciding to take a stand and refusing to let them manipulate this board anymore. I think the members who have been here for awhile and remember what TFP used to be are going to start speaking up for a return to its roots and a reversal of the PTA sewing circle this place has become over the last year or so. Naturally not everyone feels this way, but I think the chat log from last night is the beginning of a healthy change and one that a lot of members who have been watching the devolution and are finally tired of it will embrace.

It had to start somewhere.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

roachboy

interesting thread....i have a couple of questions first

1. this term "highbrow" keeps coming up.
it is apparently a bad thing.
but i dont know what it means for anyone...there seems to be some kind of consensus about it, but the content of this consensus is a complete mystery to me.
could someone explain?

i derived a meaning from exploring c:a--but it was not a flattering. i would prefer to think i am wrong.....(but see what being coy does?)

2. i really dont get the status that politics seems to have in any discussion of the state of things here. there seems to be a history of some kind of problem that predates me (i havent looked at when i started playing here...it doesnt seem important): what is the deal?

there are two main thing that drew me here iand that keeps me hanging around: (1) i have found the journal space to be interesting and productive (this is an entirely personal matter) and (2) the potential for interesting types of conversation about often contentious issues in politics. i'll leave the first aside for now as it doesnt seem to be on the table. on the second: things can get heated in politics--and if things get heated, i usually figure "so what?"--but this seems a minority view, as it has (in the past, more than once) appeared that there a perception that heated discussions=some kind of Problem brewing--but the source of that Problem has always appeared (to me at least) to come from this mythical history of the forum rather than from what anyone is doing or saying in real time. a couple times i remember mod clampdowns of one type or another on the forum that seemed to me to be entirely about fear of Something That Happened Once Happening Again--not only did the motivation behind these periods seem to me obscure, but the clampdowns were not done well. politics has been referred to as a blight in the past, a space that brings some bizarre negativity to other spaces....so repeating repeating, i dont understand the status of politics in either the historical world of tfp, the imaginary world of tfp or frankly the realtime world of tfp.
i dont see it as a problematic space.
i do see it as one that has been damaged at times by its own history and the perceptions of it that seem attached to its history for (some of) the mods.
i see it as one in which you can actually have complex discussions.
for that reason, it seems like a space that should be valued rather than one that is framed as somehow Problematic.

on the convo: (1) i really do not understand the treatment of daoust.

(2) i'd like to applaud supple cow and hal both up there for navigating a potentially very awkward conversation. i think there is interesting material for thinking about this space there. also i understand more about where jj at least is coming from there (i didnt really get the c:a post) and in some ways agree with him.

but i would really like answers to the questions before i say more.

reading jj's post above, i have another question: there is obvious some kind of backstory to the charges of mod-manipulation to resolve disputes. what is that story? as it stands, i do not understand what is being discussed across this terminology. there are obvious concrete instances at play in the background. generally, this sort of thing is of no interest to me, but in this case it seems germaine.

thinking about the questions, what seems maybe problematic and what links them is a lack of transparency....but i havent formulated this as an objection in principle--i just want to know what is motivating at least some of the problems that folk are raising. because i have been here for quite a while now and i have no idea what is really going on (or what appears to be really going on)...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Sty

Well, we could open the TB again to bring in the traffic. As before some percentage of the plebs see the other areas too and become more permanent members.

We could also enable Karma for some time, just for the fun. Think about social experiment. Let's just not make any announcement of it and see what happens.

__________________
br,
Sty

I route, therefore you exist

Lasereth

Yeah Daoust was just trying to get into the conversation and he was kicked for no apparent reason.

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

ngdawg

If they read the user guidelines they do, no?
And if it's by word of mouth that they come by, they would probably know as well.
When I first ventured over, I didn't know about the porn or EX, etc. I was told one thing: "As you contribute, more things will open up to you". If the guidelines said that alone, it 'might' keep those that came, interested. If you see, say, 20 forums and don't know that 10 more will open with your particpation, your first impressions are not going to change.
If you have those same 20 and someone knows that there's porn to be had if they stick around, will they stay after once they get the 'good stuff'? There's a lot of posters in those forums that rarely, if ever, post elsewhere.
But if you take things like post counts, contributions, etc., they're on par with the folks that put in thought-provoking, intelligent content. Maybe it's time to take the porn stuff(outside of EX, of course) and make it a seperate entity altogether....*shrug*

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

fresnelly

I'm with roachboy here. I find the charges of Mod manipulation and abitrary action a bit bewildering. Aside from heated Political threads or stillborn thread starts, I barely see their presence; especially since the last bout of TFP hand wringing this past summer. Am I simply reading the wrong threads?

I'd like to second Charlatan's suggestion of including Nonsense threads in "New Thread" searches. That's a valuable arena for blowing off some steam and doing so would facilitate its growth. I never received a clear answer as to why it was removed when I first asked for this back in Suggestion thread.

__________________
Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

Sty

BTW what's the Mod Manipulation you're talking here? I honestly don't know what you mean.

__________________
br,
Sty

I route, therefore you exist

JumpinJesus

roachboy,

unfortunately, transparency is not a valued commodity in some aspects of what is going on.

With regards to the mods and admins being manipulated, they'll have to speak for themselves on this one.

Concerning Daoust: he seemingly has a habit of action/retraction. That is, he overreacts, becomes screechingly hostile, then apologizes. If you noticed, he began injecting himself into the conversation at a bad time, and was told to shush by Halx. You saw his response. Left to his own devices, he would have derailed the conversation in an attempt to get someone to pay attention to him. I think Halx did the appropriate thing by kicking him. By the way, this also illustrates a parallel to what happened in C:A and how it became so volatile so quickly.

What is missing from the chat log (and not deliberately I need to add) was what happened after Halx clipped it and posted it. The conversation started going in the direction of blaming the mods and we tried redirecting it. Ngdawg started making jokes and Halx threatened to kick her if she didn't get back on topic. Halx then brought up that we were discussing the tension in TFP between members and ngdawg made a mention of us meaning the war of words between willravel and dksuddeth. I told her to quit being coy because she knew exactly what we were talking about and she told me to stop already. Others started calling her out on her behavior and she quit. You can't say you want a problem to end by ignoring it or walking out of a conversation.

What this is getting at is there is a need for some apparently to not be transparent, to play coy. If I am not as transparent as I'd like, it's because transparency only works if everyone is willing to be forthcoming. Some still are not and hide behind jokes and passive aggressive behavior rather than confront the issue. The issue will never resolve itself as long as we stick to euphamisms and opaque references to each other.

Granted, there is a backstory, but I don't think delving into it is what we're looking for now. I think what we're looking for now is a way forward. Some of us truly want to move forward, but some are content to keep spinning the wheels of confrontation due to hurt pride or ego.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

roachboy

jj: thanks.

my objection to what you write:

this backstory, whatever it is, figures in pretty significant ways within whatever this discussion is that we are having. the concern that has been spun out of that backstory is not even accessible to many of us--for whatever reason.... (it sounds from your post like the origin of some of it is a personal falling-out between you/shesus and ng--but even that i can't be sure of because you frame your post across the question of transparency in a way that repeats the problem i am trying to raise, except now the word transparency gets to be part of it--and if it is a purely personal matter between a small cluster of members, how did it, whatever it is, get raised to the level of a general problem with tfp?)

so it seems that either (a) it has to be made public so that all have equal access to it or (b) it has to drop out of both the conversations that lead up to any decisions and the decisions themselves.

in other words, this either is or is not a matter relevant for the community as a whole. as it stands, it floats about, raised in a half-assed way (this is difficult--i am not really referencing your post here, jj, more addressing the issue that you tried to clarify in general---sorry for such confusion as this may create)---it is never really explained, but is nontheless accepted/treated as though it characterizes something significant, that is as something that accurately characterizes a structural problem.

but a personal falling-out is NOT a structural problem.

the problem now is that, given the information presented, i (for one) cant even figure out what this problem actually is.

==================================
(the following more general, no longer directed at jj):

the same applies to this "highbrow" term that keeps getting thrown around as a critique of the tfp: either explain what is meant by it or stop referencing it.

and with the framing of politics as if it constituted some kind of problem for the board (rather than being seen as an asset, which may not be to everyone's taste, but who really cares? not every forum is to my taste and i cannot imagine a situation in which i would try to argue that forums which do not conform to my personal tastes are a Problem for the board as a whole).

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Daoust

Thank you for mentioning this, Lasereth. I wasn't going to, because in all honesty, I thought I was going to get booted out of TFP if I did. (In a nutshell, that's what I think is wrong with this place, but anyway...) I knew that Halx and Supple Cow were having a serious conversation, but while they were chatting (in an open public chat, mind you) I was just looking for some clarification on some of the points they were making... I wasn't rude, I was just looking to contribute to the conversation, and then Halx actually told me to "SHUSH" If someone has an excerpt of that point in the conversation, and can prove that the comments I made before Halx attempted to silence me were out of line or overly rude or disrespectful to anyone, I'll pack my bags and leave this place for good. They weren't. I wasn't rude.

The excerpt that Halx cut for this thread shows him and SC openly inviting Ng, and JumpinJesus, and UncePhil and Shesus to discuss the issue. They were invited, but I was told to shush? Explanation? The very thing SC was arguing with Halx about; that he is god and wants ultimate control over everything.

I'll go back to what I said earlier. I didn't do anything wrong. I politely tried to enter the conversation and got reprimanded by the boss for it. For no apparent reason other than something that reeks of me being on the wrong end of favoratism.

Look at my posts in TFP for the last couple of months if you want any proof that I'm not a shit disturber. In the past I have got my dander up at a few people, got reprimanded and I shut the hell up. I'm here at TFP, and have been for over 2 years, because I like this place. I like the people here. I'm not a major contributor, but I post when I feel like it, and haven't in my opinion been a detriment to this place.

My suggestion for improvement? I shouldn't have been afraid to make this post. That's what's wrong with TFP.

What do you mean " a bad time "? The times you jumped in were 'good times' ?

Explain that.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

pan6467

Personally, my belief is that if you really want to get to the heart of the matter ask the people who have only been here for 6 months maybe as much as a year.

Find out what drew them, what kept them here. Then build off that.

I think asking everyone is a good idea and that while they may have some good ideas, they are also not going to be so quick to mention changing what they like but may be driving newbies off.

But I feel the truest answer is that this is the nature of the internet, the people who've stayed found themselves comfortable and at home..... if we change too much to bring in new blood, we may find we lose more than we gain.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Supple Cow

Well, Daoust (obviously forgetting that I am batshit crazy) tried to talk while I was talking.

I signed in last night to chat because I was kind of bored, and Halx asked that I discuss C:A with him because I had expressed opposition to it in the other thread and directed it right at him. Honestly, I hardly saw any need to the conversation once I realized Hal's stand on his relationship to the board and we established that we simply disagree as to the method of running it. But then as it spilled into topics I was largely unprepared to discuss, other people I respect brought up something that I noticed independently of my interactions with them and I was compelled to stick around and support what they were saying. I think if you are one of those people who doesn't know why this bad blood exists, it's because you're not a regular of BOTH the Exhibition forum and the Journals - the drama started there and only grew.

I am so utterly tired of being polite to (or ignoring) people who I don't think deserve the attention. My own response already has been to leave the TFP to the hens, but it is disheartening and a little frustrating to abandon discussions I have an interest in because a couple of hens feel the need to come in and peck at all the people who don't want to pretend it's a henhouse.

As for my share of the kicking of Daoust from chat, that stemmed mostly from watching his interactions over at C:A - I simply don't have much respect for someone who just wants to be included for the sake of being included. This 'include-me-no-matter-what' garbage is same attitude that I have noticed among the suburban PTA clan that is trying to keep this place too 'clean', as JJ has mentioned. What I said about respect being earned instead of expected no matter what your actions - this is where it applies. I don't think I was wrong in telling Daoust to butt out. I also think Hal could have shown a little more tact about shushing (or kicking) him, but that probably has more to do with Hal's attention being focused on trying to comprehend my point (which I know was a rather difficult given our viewpoints) more than Hal going out of his way to be mean or excessively exclusive. Either way, that is Hal's issue and not mine. I didn't kick the guy; I just told him to butt out.

I do think it's unfortunate that Hal wanted to post the conversation as it was since any playfulness and other aspects of our tone borne out of the real-life relationships between many of the people in the chat that night are obviously doing more to feed the potshot fire than they are encouraging more useful input (thanks for illustrating, KnifeMissile). However, I recognized that it would be a big, slow job to take all of that and turn it into something that other people wouldn't misinterpret, so I agreed to Hal's idea of just posting the whole conversation.

On a separate note, I don't like the idea of putting the porn over at C:A. That would just link the two boards even more than they are currently linked and neither of them can benefit much from more of that.

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

pig

roach,

i'll handle the "highbrow" comment, or at least part of it - as i think i was the person who originally threw it out in the C:A thread. what i meant by it, at least - and it may not be the most accurate use of the word - is in some ways tied up in notion of transparency. the way the tfp has been pragmatically evolving/devolving has led to a situation where any disagreement of a personal nature between members is frequently handled with slight innuendo, subtle digs. its more like my notion of a country club. i don't think there's anything wrong with that type of discussion, in and of itself (personally) - but the problem is that we've become somewhat limited to it as a mode of expressing personal confrontation. i think that some members of the tfp would like more breadth in the ability to directly handle such situations, using foul language and coarse phraseology. that's part of it. there is also the fact that people seem to have very thin skin around here a lot. i referenced an example of a comment made by king in the original C:A thread. i think the feeling is that we've limited our available modes of conversation, in the interest of promoting mature and intelligent discussion - to a form of surbanized anticeptic conversation that is only one form of mature conversation - and have cut a lot of others out entirely. i think that shanni has a valid point that we (or at least I, and I think many others) don't want this place to turn into a flamefest - but that fear can be taken too far, and i think many would say that it has.

halx, thanks for the chat log. the recent week's events are spurring me to do some thinking about this situation, in general. i have to admit that i rather like the idea of foisting the tb off to C:A, and then having some very obvious links between the two. another thought that occurs to me is a little more subtle, and of very little importance - but in line with the Tilted Nonsense discussion, not only would i include it in the 'new posts' link, i would rename it to something like Tilted Freeform or something. Nonsense sounds like a place to go read all the email forwards I delete every day, whereas a lot of the stuff I've seen over there is highly creative and really good for building community. I know it was the first place I felt comfortable when I started playing at tfp. I think Nonsense may not be the best semantic choice for the section.

I also think you're onto a valid point (I think it was in the other thread) that tfp needs more interesting content - from all of us. I hesitated to bring it up, because it feels too close to a self indictment - but if the tfp is just a place where we cut a link from cnn and this discuss it, that's probably not going to really drive the numbers up or raise interest. I think that gets boring really quickly - there's only so many positions that can be articulated there. I just haven't seen a clear stategic manner in which to make a coherent suggestion as to how to proceed yet.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Halx

Ok, damn. I just read all of that. I'm still listening and I've gotten some ideas from the people. Keep posting, I'm going to read everything.

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pan6467

I think one example of the problem is the ongoing Daoust argument in a thread meant specifically to build TFP.

Not saying that Daoust and all shouldn't be having it, I just think on a thread that should be constructive and focused that is very defocusing.... but just my opinion.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"