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Please touch this.
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
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State of the TFP (Long)
The following is a chatlog from the TFP IRC channel (which I strongly suggest everyone take the time to check out) in which a few of us discussed the current state of the TFP and what is going on and what needs to change.
Quote:
<Hal> just tell me.. in very plain terms, why you're opposed to C:A
<Supple_Cow> I think I did already
<Supple_Cow> I just think it's hypocritical for you to do it in the capacity of Creator of TFP and Asker of Traffic and Donations
<Supple_Cow> pretty straight forward, really
<Supple_Cow> I'm sure C:A has plenty of interesting qualities for those inclined to use it
<Hal> but that doesn't say what I'm asking
<Hal> lets make it more simple
<Supple_Cow> what are you asking?
<Supple_Cow> be more clear
<Hal> Is it the basic "creation of another forum" that is objectionable, as forum/forum is a conflict of interest?
<Hal> Or does it have anything to do with the content of the other forum
<Supple_Cow> no, you keep trying to leave parts out
<Supple_Cow> it's about creation of another forum that you are endorsing as the creator of this forum who asks for us to bring traffic and donations
<Hal> of so its a conflict of interest
<Supple_Cow> it's all of that together
<Hal> of=ok
<Supple_Cow> it's that you're not being aware of your role and I think that can be damaging
<Supple_Cow> if you had put up the outgoing links forum first
<Supple_Cow> and then some joe schmoe plugged C:A, then okee dokee
<Supple_Cow> that's a-okay
<Supple_Cow> even if you still created it
<Hal> so what you're saying is, I cant my role as forum owner to endorse my own projects
<Hal> cant use
<Supple_Cow> yeah
<Supple_Cow> I really don't think that's good business
<Hal> ok, I understand where you're coming from
<Supple_Cow> I mean, there are a lot of ways to lead
<Supple_Cow> but the most effective is by example
<Supple_Cow> and even when you're using other ways to lead, if your example undercuts what you're trying to do, it will speak louder than your words and intentions
<Hal> I totally understand, and I would be in agreement if the TFP were an actual business.
<Supple_Cow> I guess I feel like it should be if people are to be donating
<Supple_Cow> hell, when I give my money to someone, I expect to get the product I wanted in return (if it's to buy a product) or to have the person I give it to be responsible with it
<Hal> well, I've been plugging my own sites for years
<Hal> and never once had so much displeasure
<Supple_Cow> I've noticed and I didn't agree then eiether
<Supple_Cow> I think this time it's particularly heinous because of the timing
<nim> heh, maybe i'm out of place with this comment
<Hal> timing?
<nim> but the idea of professionalism doesnt change based on if you are dealing with a buisiness or not
<Supple_Cow> here is where I am going to be more about my feelings than about facts and rational things
<Hal> I never really considered 'professionalism' one of the keys to what I do
<Supple_Cow> my feelings since the several donation drives and threads like "What has happened to TFP?" have changed
<Supple_Cow> I think that that is true of most people who have been around for all or most of it
<Hal> I've mostly played into the thought of "It's Hal's site"
<Supple_Cow> right
<Supple_Cow> that's what causes stagnation
<Supple_Cow> you can say it's about professionalism or you can say it's about how it's your site, but it's all the same to me
<Hal> I dont really see where you draw the relation
<Supple_Cow> there is basically always a goal, even if you're trying hard not to have one
<Supple_Cow> your goal, since you were trying not to have one, turned out to be for the activity to not be boring and stagnant at the same time as for people to keep giving you praise and reverence because this is "your board"
<Supple_Cow> but frankly, it's just uninteresting now
<Supple_Cow> thus an overly honest conversation like this in TFP public about how I think you are not dealing with this well
<Hal> eh, i'm not subscribing to the praise and reverence part of that comment
<Supple_Cow> whether you ask for it outright or not, that is what you are expecting
<Supple_Cow> that's what you imply when you say "It's Hal's site"
<Supple_Cow> don't you think it's strange that I'm the only person (and I mean the ONLY person) who addressed you directly and told you this was a stupid idea?
<Hal> well, I see it as mine because every idea that drives it forward.. or back.. is mine
<Supple_Cow> that's because I've met you in real life and feel comfortable enough to be honest with you
<Supple_Cow> and now I'm even feeling brazen (and like I've got nothing important to lose) enough to undercut you in front of your audience
<Hal> I want this conversation and I'm paying attention
<Supple_Cow> and you can't take credit for the board's evolution
<Hal> i can take credit for the rules
<Supple_Cow> it wouldn't be what it is without all the people who come here
<Hal> i can take credit for the traffic
<Supple_Cow> but you have to admit that even the rules evolved to what they are now
<Supple_Cow> by asking us to plug it?
<Hal> hardly any traffic has come from plugs
<Supple_Cow> you can take credit for the initial traffic maybe, when the site wasn't what it is now
<Supple_Cow> well you didn't get ME here
<Supple_Cow> ubertuber did
<Supple_Cow> and maybe you can thank Fark for him
<Supple_Cow> I think thing you're going a little overboard with the Creator thing
<Supple_Cow> it's starting to feel like this whole site is just to make you feel good
<Hal> well what I'm saying is, I'm a huge friggin' part of the site.
<Supple_Cow> but even if it started that way, couldn't you maybe give way for the evolution to take place on its own?
<Hal> The site does make me feel good, but not from my contributions
<Supple_Cow> tell me in what ways it makes you feel good
<Hal> I love it when people share themselves.. art, stories, questions, advice..
<Hal> all of that is far more readable than Hal-love-fests
<Supple_Cow> so would you say that is the board's primary value?
<Hal> The value of the site lies in its culture, I think
<Supple_Cow> and do you believe your hand controls the culture?
<Hal> No, but I control the traffic
<Supple_Cow> why is that important?
<Hal> and I can sway the culture if I need to
<Supple_Cow> you say that as if you are threatening me into saying that you are important... "or else I'll stop the traffic!"
<Hal> its important because despite the value of the individual, you need a number of people to make it work
<Supple_Cow> why would you sway the culture and what constitutes NEED
<Hal> I'll illustrate it
<Supple_Cow> I'm not saying you are not important
<Supple_Cow> I recognize that it takes a lot of work to keep this board running
<Supple_Cow> but I think you are trying to control too many aspects
<Hal> The TFP right now is a little too... as someone put it... high brow
<Supple_Cow> and straining in your efforts
<Hal> this is very alienating to new users
<Hal> we used to be open and accepting of even the most bumbling of idiots
<Hal> but now we wont have you unless you are impeccable
<Hal> this needs to change
<Hal> we're gonna get a little bit grungier and I can control that
<Supple_Cow> and you can do that single handedly by telling the older "high brow" members to heel when they sic onto a noob
<Supple_Cow> or you can try this convoluted god-like creator way
<Daoust> sorry to butt in Halx, but can you explain what you mean by that - " a bit grungier " comment?
<Supple_Cow> if that was the problem, then you could have addressed it a better way
<Hal> it can get to that point, or I can introduce features and attitudes that hint towards it
<Supple_Cow> but hinting is annoying
<Supple_Cow> it's weird how you expect so much credit for big things, and yet the nature of all your actions is so subtle
<Supple_Cow> what I am saying is, if you want to be TFP's Daddy and Maker, then act like it and use your hand more wisely
<Hal> all I want credit for is being the guy in charge
<Supple_Cow> "in charge" - what does that mean???
<Hal> but I'm also a member
<Supple_Cow> that's what I'm saying
<Supple_Cow> how about, we are all giving you credit for having made the damn place and for doing all the really hard annoying things it takes to keep it going every day
<Hal> in charge .. the cost of the site comes out of my bank account every month
<Supple_Cow> isn't that enough?
<Supple_Cow> what is this in charge bullshit
<Supple_Cow> that is exactly what I said before - you expect reverence
<Supple_Cow> THERE WE GO
<Supple_Cow> you have two choices
<nim> out of curiosity, how much bandwidth does tfp use on average in a month?
<Supple_Cow> you can bankroll this yourself and be god
<Supple_Cow> or you can ask for donations and stop being the only one in charge
<Hal> you're not buying stock
<Hal> you're donating
<Supple_Cow> but that's what it should be if you want to keep people around
<Supple_Cow> or you shouldn't pretend it's about the community
<Hal> nim, not a whole lot anymore..
<Supple_Cow> you seem to think that we're all just an interesting experiment for your own amusement
<Supple_Cow> maybe all the donors should know THAT before they "donate"
<Hal> i think the words on the site say that donating does nto entitle you to any special privileges
<Supple_Cow> that's like saying if Red Cross starts using their donations for crack and personal vacations, that the donors who gave money when they were actually performing charitable service should be fine with that
<Supple_Cow> Red Cross donors don't get special privileges either
<unclephil> supplecow, say hi, hawaiii...
<Hal> but what am I using donations for other than the hosting bill?
<unclephil> haven't sen you since the NYC meet-up...
<Supple_Cow> but we only donate for the hosting bill on the assumption that this is a place we like to be
<Supple_Cow> howdy, phil
<Hal> Something's not right about this
<unclephil> been following your journal entries...
<Supple_Cow> Hal, you can get all offended and shit, but I'm obviously not the only one who expects a level of professionalism in general in life
<unclephil> glad you're doing well...
<Supple_Cow> thanks, phil :)
<Hal> You're talking to me about the power of the people, while disagreeing with my personal action.
<Hal> I mean, who is in charge?
<Supple_Cow> no, not the power of the people
<Supple_Cow> you are in charge and you are doing it badly
<Daoust> what are you suggesting that he do, SC?
<Daoust> what course of action should he take?
<Hal> I'm not offended, I can take criticism if I understand it
<Supple_Cow> I think you mother all of your projects too much
<Supple_Cow> you hover over them and try to control them
<Supple_Cow> and that hinders their growth
<Hal> umm
<Hal> I don't know if you realized this
<Hal> but there was a period of about 15 months when I hardly touched the TFP
<Hal> and.. it didn't fare too well
* unclephil remembers that...
<Hal> I let it go.. and it let itself go
<Supple_Cow> but that was neglect
<Supple_Cow> not mothering does not equal neglect
<Supple_Cow> yes, somebody has to do a little moderating to keep up some semblance of order
<Supple_Cow> ...in a place where order is expected, anyway
<Hal> the mods all did their jobs
<Hal> they did a great job, in fact
<Supple_Cow> then the rules were too rigid to allow for growth
<Hal> I agree that the rules are too rigid, thats why you see a few changes
<Supple_Cow> I guess you're making this other place to make up for the fact that it's too rigid here?
<Hal> no
<Hal> C:A is simply an experiment in forum management. Nothing more, nothing less.
<Supple_Cow> okay, well back to the original point... about the donor funds anyway...
<Daoust> and have you made any conclusions yet Halx?
<Hal> it hasn't even gotten started, Daoust
<Supple_Cow> I am just getting the overwhelming feeling that you are confusing our donations to the TFP with donations to Hal's creative mind
<Hal> but as I've stated, I used none of the funds to make the C:A forums
<Supple_Cow> aren't you hosting them on the same server? whatever, that's irrelevant
<Hal> the donor funds have always been strictly allocated to the servers that TFP runs on
<Supple_Cow> you are getting caught up with nitpicking between funds and what those funds mean
<Hal> ok
<shesus> I just came back and read through all this...
<Supple_Cow> this is about how you don't think good business practice and professionalism apply here
<Supple_Cow> I think they always do
<Supple_Cow> and soembody earlier agreed with me here in chat
<shesus> supple is it about the money? I'm not sure what the problem is
<Supple_Cow> and I feel like a good deal more people would probably agree too
<Supple_Cow> it's about the principle
<Hal> i had a conversation last night with another donor
<Supple_Cow> it's not about the money
<Supple_Cow> it's about what the money represents
<Hal> we talked about the unrest
<Hal> but he was pleased with everything
<shesus> but it's an internet forum, I'm just confused...it's not a business really
<Supple_Cow> 'business' applies less that 'principle'
<Hal> ok
<Hal> lets go t basics again
<Supple_Cow> I suppose I could have known better than to give donations to some guy who wants to play God on some forum I like to visit
<Supple_Cow> because some others don't see it that way
<shesus> so, hal shouldn't be able to have side projects that he shares? I just don't get it
<Hal> is anything about the way the TFP is run "unethical"
<Supple_Cow> see, you're asking all these questions like a lawyer trying to get his client off the hotseat, but it's really just that I personally expect the people I choose to deal with to behave according to some principles
<Supple_Cow> it's not a question of whether something you did is ethical or not
<Supple_Cow> and I never brought that up
<Hal> I'm just trying to get a better handle on what it is you're saying
<shesus> how do you define principle?
<Supple_Cow> let me try to boil it down to the most basic thing I can think of to describe what I am saying
<shesus> sometimes people get define words differently...that happened last night anyway
<Hal> I'm not saying that if its not unethical, then I dont have to pay attention to you
<Supple_Cow> I used to think TFP = fun and great and even enlightening
<Hal> me too
<Supple_Cow> you asked for donations, and based on TFP = fun and great and even enlightening, I gave some money
<Supple_Cow> now, it is not so fun and great and hardly enlightening
<Daoust> Give some concrete examples of how it changed, in your opinion SC. Not just that 'it became over moderated'
<Hal> i agree its not as great anymore
<Supple_Cow> having given you some money as the person I think would most be interested in keeping it fun and great and even enlightening,
<Supple_Cow> Daoust, butt out, you aren't even understanding what I'm writing
<Hal> i'm very interested in doing so
<shesus> I think we all agree that it needs a change
<Supple_Cow> to continue...
<Daoust> totally unnecessary SC...I'm just trying to understand.
<Hal> Daoust, shush
<Supple_Cow> having given some money, part of me expects that you would do what was best for encouraging the TFP to be those things once again
<Hal> I should hope so too
<Daoust> DO
<Daoust> NOT
<Daoust> SHUSH
<Daoust> ME
<Supple_Cow> and I think that you did the opposite
* Hal sets mode: +b *!*@SF-735215D6.eastlink.ca
* Daoust was kicked by Hal (go away)
<Supple_Cow> and as a donor, I am expressing my opposition
<Hal> ok
<Hal> Well, thats really what I wanted to get at
<Hal> thats what I wanted to discuss
<Hal> We disagree on how this should be done.
<Supple_Cow> yep, that's all
<Supple_Cow> and it's your board, so you'll do it as you will!
<Supple_Cow> I guess the only real trouble is that I can sound very convincing and scary or whatever
<Hal> I'd like suggestions, not on how I should do it differently, but on what seems to be the detrimental aspects of the TFP's current goings on
<Supple_Cow> and people who don't hold such strong opinions are swayed very easily
* JumpinJesus raises his hand
<Hal> Everyone is free to join in
<Hal> go ahead JJ
<JumpinJesus> here's what I see happened...you were gone for awhile, and a lot of the moderation team wasn't as active as they once were...while TFP was able to run itself in a sense, this absence allowed too many members to begin imposing their will without enough support to prevent it.
<JumpinJesus> in a sense, they were able to do this by flooding moderators with complaints..
<JumpinJesus> and a lot of times, the moderators either didn't have time, or didn't really look into it, and with time, those members felt emboldened.
<JumpinJesus> and what started happening is those members started chasing people away because they didn't feel like dealing with it or didn't have too many options.
<JumpinJesus> At least for me, that's why I found C:A to be such a breath of fresh air. It gave us a place where we could take control of it back for ourselves.
<Hal> SC: I just want to ask you if you read my post regarding the 5 things that are dragging the site down
<Hal> ok JJ
<Supple_Cow> SC's interpretation of JJ's point: TFP shouldn't let people go around calling others fuckfaces for no reason, but at the same time, they shouldn't be prevented from calling out a true fuckface
<Hal> I totally agree
<JumpinJesus> thank you supple. much shorter than my thesis.
<Supple_Cow> I read them, Hal. I'm not remembering the specifics at the moment, but they were good points in general
<Supple_Cow> JJ, of course :)
<Hal> I really agree on the conflicts
<Hal> i think they're necessary and we're going to allow a bit more of that to go on
<Hal> within reason
<Supple_Cow> anyway, Hal, I just didn't back off after you made those points because I felt like you were still kind of dismissing the point about bad practice for the TFP, which is more of a personal disagreement than a vendetta I should be taking on
<Hal> SC, the whole thing appeared so ambiguous to me.. I couldn't tell what everyone's *real* disagreement was
<Hal> only that they didn't like S:A
* Hal sets mode: -b *!*@SF-735215D6.eastlink.ca
<Supple_Cow> well, I like it if it means I'll get to call out true TFP douchebaggery freely
<JumpinJesus> I honestly feel the disagreement was drawn down the lines of those who were overtaking TFP and throttling the mods' powers by crying foul at them whenever they spoke their mind, and those who really want TFP to succeed.
<Hal> do any of you have any objections to me posting this conversation in the forum?
<unclephil> nope...
<JumpinJesus> not at all. Hell, after what I posted in C:A, how much worse could I get?
<Supple_Cow> uhhhhh, what the hell! why not?
<spec> amen to your second to last statement jj :)
<JumpinJesus> toss me some love, spec. heh
<Hal> Ok.
<Hal> We all give a shit about the TFP, and we want it to do well
* spec tosses the love
<Hal> how that comes about will have to be discussed
* unclephil feels the love...
<Hal> but right now I feel like the forum has a ton of tension
<unclephil> i feel that, but not from the "regulars..."
<unclephil> and drew, we know who we are..
<Hal> I am still not quite sure on how to proceed though
<Hal> I mean, one area is the members vs mods point, sure
<JumpinJesus> I have some ideas, but then...they're fairly radical.
<shesus> I don't know, but I'm feeling a rift rather it's a real one or not
<Hal> well lets hear them.. I can adapt if necessary
<Hal> the ideas, that is.. adapt the ideas
<unclephil> C/A has not helped the dichotomy...
<Supple_Cow> I don't think it's members vs. mods at all
<Supple_Cow> I don't think members should be afraid of mods doing irrational things
<JumpinJesus> It's well known that spec and shesus and I are good friends in real life. We were discussing this issue once and I said that I think a good idea would be to shut it down for a week or so, reopen it, start from scratch...
<Supple_Cow> and if they speak up like I just did with all the bad words and all AND they have a good point, the mods should have nothing to fear either
<unclephil> C/A?
<JumpinJesus> not C:A...TFP. I've felt it needs open heart surgery.
<Hal> was what I just did to Daoust irrational? :)
<JumpinJesus> hell no
<JumpinJesus> heh
* unclephil believes TFP is going through some "adolescent" pains...
<Hal> TFP v6.. heh
<unclephil> but, i also believe c?p is hurting the process...
<JumpinJesus> when it's reopened, the active mods and admins keep their jobs, the absent ones who are no longer participating are gone.
<unclephil> just my opinion...
<JumpinJesus> Having a lot of inactive mods sends the signal that the place is dying, too, I think.
<Supple_Cow> good point, JJ
<shesus> I don't know if C:A is hurting the process. I think it's bringing to light many issues that are bothering some of the members of TFP
<Hal> yes, I try to keep the list relevant, with respect to the individual mods who come in and do their job on occasion
<Hal> i looked at it today in fact
<spec> and giving us a place to be a little more free without sewing circle retaliation
<Hal> I may make some changes
<shesus> some people are happy with the safe, happy go-lucky, everyone loves each other TFP...I would like to have a meet in the middle...not as non-sensical and flaming as C:A, but not as 'PTA with porn' (love that) as TFP is currently
<Hal> yep
<Hal> well here's an idea of mine
* unclephil gave up on the porn aspect of TFP a while ago...
<Supple_Cow> for one thing, and I'm going to call somebody out, a recurring problem is that people seem to think that rules protect them, even when they don't deserve respect
<shesus> heh
<Hal> Opening up the Titty Board again
<Hal> my favorite device
<unclephil> i'm there for the plae itself...
<Supple_Cow> Daoust, for instance, in this conversation earlier
<shesus> I don't see why that would be a problem
<Supple_Cow> especially considering his contributions to the thread about C:A in TFP and in C:A itself
<Hal> i'm confused how the rules protect anyone
<JumpinJesus> it's the perception that they do
<Supple_Cow> well, I mean with the old more rigid rules, maybe you wouldn't have kicked him from our convo earlier
<Hal> ya I woulda.. heh
<shesus> I'll give you an example:
<Hal> ok
<shesus> I hate to bring this up, but this shows how people feel protected
<shesus> The NG fiasco that occurred in C:A. NG drug it back over to TFP and continued baiting and whining becuase she knows that if we took the bait and ran with it...we'd be reprimanded...at least that's how I saw it
<Supple_Cow> yeah, she was going to be the somebody I called out #2
<Supple_Cow> I've had enough of her attention whoring
<Hal> she did take it a little far
<shesus> she knows that she can act like that there and people aren't sure if they're allowed if they can call her on it or not
<Supple_Cow> she illustrates my earlier point even better
* spec nods to sc and shesus on that
<shesus> I'm done with her because I'm not playing her game and I've already said what I needed to say. But I'm sure she thinks I'm scared of the mods and that's why I'm not attacking anymore
<Supple_Cow> she went off on this tirade against shesus in the TFP thread about C:A
<Supple_Cow> about how people expect to be respected everywhere, and if you don't, you don't respect yourself or some bullshit like that
<Supple_Cow> but really, wouldn't you agree that respect is something you should earn with your actions?
<Supple_Cow> she wasn't deserving of respect at all
<Hal> Well, i see your points
<Hal> Suggested changes?
<Supple_Cow> don't let the mods pander to that kind of behavior
<Hal> We've got two agendas, I think
<Hal> 1) We want to create a great community
<Hal> 2) We want to harbor people from immaturity so they can express without worry
<Hal> the points you're bringing up slightly suggest that the 2 agendas are mutually exclusive
<Supple_Cow> it's not like you want to make a rule where moderators have to find two-faced attention whoring behavior and weed it out... you just have to let the people they are shitting on say their piece
<spec> I think it's one agenda, being able to talk like adults without any bullshit going on
<shesus> I'm not for flaming and outright insulting
<shesus> but I think that people should be called out for certain behaviors...and if they put a critique up, we should be able to be honest without fear.
<Hal> "Whatever you have to say, say it with maturity."
<Hal> is what a good blanket statement?
<shesus> bingo
<Supple_Cow> I mean, there should be no question of the difference between personal attacks and stating obvious truths that are personal
<JumpinJesus> good statement, but then, maturity can sometimes be subjective
<Hal> JJ, was the open heart surgery your only idea?
<shesus> I mean it's an adult bored..we don't all have to play nice, butu we should play with maturity and be able to call it like we see it
<JumpinJesus> I also thought that streamlining the forums would work a little better, but that seems to be something you're already working on.
<Hal> ya I moved stuff around a little.. gonna see if I can do more
* wdw|LIFE is now known as sportswidow
<Hal> ok.. one thing is nagging me
<JumpinJesus> and I was so up for Sty's and Analog's reworking of the Art forums..
<Hal> Ok I hear ya on that one
<Hal> This is what is nagging me though..
<Hal> Who makes the judgement call on if "calling someone out" is a flame or not?
<Supple_Cow> well, I think that the people you choose for moderators should be of sound mind in general
<shesus> making a personal attack that doesn't have anything to do with the topic?
<JumpinJesus> you're right in that that could and most likely will be an issue.
<Supple_Cow> but shesus, sometimes when ng attacked you, it wasn't necessarily relevant to anything going on in a thread
<Supple_Cow> it was a passive aggressive attack
* ngdawg has joined #tfp
<shesus> yea, that's true
<Hal> hi ng
<ngdawg> mod: wtf? http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...13#post2190213
<Supple_Cow> I think at some point, it can become very clear when a behavior is repeated
<ngdawg> hhi
<ngdawg> oops
<ngdawg> did you remove photochopping or is my link screwy?
<Hal> thanks, deleting it
<spec> banned
<ngdawg> k
<Hal> i reworked the forum and we're having a conversation
<Hal> about the general goings on with the TFP, you're free to join in
<Hal> though I must be honest, your name is popping up a lot
<ngdawg> i came in the middle, so dont' have an opinion
<ngdawg> yea, i bet
<Hal> but you're free to add your piece if you can keep it on topic
<JumpinJesus> what the problem will be will be the subjectivity of what constitutes a flame and what constitutes a calling out.
<JumpinJesus> and who decides it?
<JumpinJesus> will the members?
<Hal> well, one reason why this subject is so touchy is because of your point earlier
<Hal> about members pressuring the mods
<Hal> or was that shesus
<shesus> but it's like in the classroom...the mods have the power
<JumpinJesus> I think it was all of us, really
<Supple_Cow> well the mods should be selected for their steely sense of justice and objectivity
* Supple_Cow stops being an ass and gets serious again
<ngdawg> do what most other forums do and put mods for specific forums, not all over...
<shesus> I have kids that tattle to me all day...I say what goes. I think the same would go here
<JumpinJesus> that could be a good idea.
<Supple_Cow> Hal, as person in charge of TFP (and I don't say it facetiously), don't you think you have that capacity for judgment?
<ngdawg> where they 'police', they have to be objective in order to post
<Hal> i cant make every decision, SC
<shesus> hehe..who would take politics then? lol
<ngdawg> uh....
<unclephil> delegation is a good thing...
<JumpinJesus> I think what happened in your absence, and I could be wrong, is that most mods didn't know exactly what to do.
<ngdawg> phil could!
<Supple_Cow> that is a problem...
<ngdawg> they don't know because they jump in and out as required
<JumpinJesus> and I think there was a lot of erroring on the side of caution
<Supple_Cow> yeah, maybe just more clarity in the mod training?
<ngdawg> if they know what's to be done and where, it's less chaotic
<unclephil> right, i will not touch politics...
<Supple_Cow> erroring is a terrible thing, JJ, I agree ;)
<ngdawg> if i call m0d, 3 people get 'on it'
<JumpinJesus> heh
<Hal> Ok this is a bit scattered..
<ngdawg> heh
<JumpinJesus> we can take numbers
<ngdawg> kinda see that
<Hal> I used to make all of the decisions
<Hal> I started holding off and waiting for the mods to take initiative
<shesus> you still make the decisions, you're just getting suggestions
<Supple_Cow> I think the moderation as it is is fine... there should just be an extra step if a party feels the moderation was influenced
<ngdawg> you can't wait for 7 or 8 distinct personalities to come to a conclusion....
<Hal> eventually, if the subject was sensitive enough, it would eventually go to "What does Hal think."
<JumpinJesus> is it possible that some of the mod choices were made simply for their ability to NOT take too strong of a stand?
<Supple_Cow> THOSE cases should be *paused* and taken to Hal or another small group of appointees
<Hal> However right now we've gotten to the point where mods can handle themselves.
<unclephil> thanks, hal...
<spec> ^^
<ngdawg> ok...how many mods are listed now? are they all here?
<ngdawg> nope
<Supple_Cow> it can be like the US court system
<ngdawg> but there's 8 there and maybe 5 missing..6
<ngdawg> too many
<Supple_Cow> you can appeal your way all the way up to the supreme court
<Hal> yes, it seems like the more deliberation something has, the less likely it is to be handled
<Supple_Cow> but Hal, as you said earlier, you are in charge... committees don't decide things, individuals do
<Supple_Cow> eventually, it comes down to somebody important enough making a judgment call
<ngdawg> hal, you have mods that have been MIA for months..are they still mods?
<Hal> you're right
<Supple_Cow> yes, I am
<JumpinJesus> yes, you are
* ngdawg thinks you should bring back the monday meets, but....
<Hal> but spec, art and secret all have that authority
<Supple_Cow> is there a lot of disagreement between them?
<Hal> they'd have to tell you, but from what I observe, they get along and agree well
<Supple_Cow> well then I don't see any problems
<Supple_Cow> the infrastructure just needs to be asserted and made clear in the rules
<JumpinJesus> Odd, it's one of those ironies that Alanis would sing about: in the general population, we want there to be plenty of room for disagreement, but in the mod/admin ranks, we want little disagreement.
<shesus> I think that's part of the problem, but not the main issue
<ngdawg> when lines are blurred, no one knows where to step
<ngdawg> SC is right. again
<shesus> as we were talking about yesterday, I think it's the atmosphere of the forum
<ngdawg> except for maybe two or 3 infightings, the atmosphere is ok
<Hal> to be truthful, i'm still not back at my full capacity in leading the TFP than I was at the end of 2004
<ngdawg> it was a toddler in 04
<ngdawg> in internet years, it's middle aged now
<Hal> it was still going very strong
<ngdawg> still is
<JumpinJesus> ng, but one of the things we were talking about is of that infighting, there seems to be lines being drawn, and that ends up being bad.
<shesus> which having a more organized mod system will help get some order, it still needs to stray away from the 'suburban' feeling
<Hal> i'm gonna cut the chat log here, but continue the conversation. This is getting too long to post
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The Cliff Notes goes like this: I'm gonna make some changes around here. I'd like input. |